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Why Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi; clarifying Tsukuyomi and Susanoo

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives 2' started by Yagami_, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. Yagami_ Active Member

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    There's been some ongoing debate about whether MS Sasuke had Tsukuyomi the jutsu (this of course doesn't address EMS Sasuke since he should have Itachi's powers now). This thread is to prove that he did not display the jutsu for what it's known by. Address the arguments brought up in this thread if you feel differently; don't just regurgitate things that have already been addressed and I will address what you say. Now let's start off.

    Spoiler: First, what is Tsukuyomi?
    People don't realize that there is actually an OFFICIAL description on what this jutsu is meant to do. This is what Tsukuyomi is according to both the databook and according to the manga (look at what I bolded or underlined):

    Spoiler: Databook 2: tsukuyomi entry translation by Gottheim

    X


    Spoiler: Tsukuyomi according to Itachi

    X
    X



    Spoiler: Tsukuyomi according to Kakashi

    X
    X



    Spoiler: Tsukuyomi according to Danzou

    X
    X
    X
    X

    note: Sasuke's "illusion" compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, not Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" compared to Itachi's.



    So what we can conclude from this regardless of your general position on whether he has tsukuyomi or not is that Sasuke does not possess the defining characteristic of the jutsu. According to databook, and all manga instances from credible sources, the defining characteristics of Tsukuyomi is that it happens in an instant due to the control of space and time. This is a fact as it is backed up by every evidence in the manga. There is nothing else that distinguishes Tsukuyomi from other genjutsu besides that characteristic.

    This of course naturally leads up to the following argument: isn't Tsukuyomi required for Susanoo? We need to understand what the jutsu is first.

    To be continued-
     
  2. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Spoiler: Now, what is Susanoo?

    Spoiler: According to the databook 3 entry

    X


    Spoiler: And according to Itachi on how he got Susanoo

    X
    X



    according to the databook description, Susanoo is only activated once Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are awakened. According to Itachi, all three techniques awoke in his Mangekyou when he killed Shisui.

    However, also according to the description, Susanoo must come with Totsuka blade and Yata mirror, two legendary spiritual items which Itachi obtained.

    The databook is the only piece of evidence people are using to say that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi (due to the Susanoo requirement). So for those who say that he has Tsukuyomi according to the databook must also acknowledge every mastered MS user and Sasuke also have the legendary spiritual items.

    If one believes in the latter statement then we agree to disagree. If not, then here's more supporting the argument on why it only applies to Itachi:

    Spoiler: Reasons why that databook description of Susanoo only applies to Itachi and not any other MS user

    Spoiler: There are different versions of Susanoo

    X
    X


    -Sasuke's version utilizes the bow/shield and uses arrows in its incomplete form
    -Itachi's version uses the spiritual items, even in its incomplete form (used the Yata mirror to block the exploding tags)

    Spoiler: Sasuke never said he unlocked Tsukuyomi, or that it was required for his Susanoo

    X
    X


    Spoiler: Sasuke's "designated" MS abilities are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi

    Spoiler: According to Sasuke

    X
    X


    -Chapter 415 was entitled "A New Power". The ending side-text of the chapter says "Sasuke obtains a new power."

    Spoiler: According to Shii

    X
    X


    -The only times when MS powers for each eye were named, they were called Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu. There was never an instance of one of his three powers being Tsukuyomi.
    -While Itachi can put out the black flames which is a small partial aspect of Kagutsuchi, he does not possess the ability to actually spatially manipulate them which is the jutsu's core function.



    In conclusion, for those who tl;dr, here's the concise summary:

    1) By definition, Tsukuyomi lasts for an instant as its ability is the control over space and time. This is what separates it from other genjutsu. Something called "Tsukuyomi" which doesn't have that feature is like having a fire that's not hot.
    2)The Susanoo definition found in the databook 3 only applies to Itachi. The reasons for this are:
    -there are different versions of Susanoo as stated by Madara
    -Sasuke's three Mangekyou powers specifically designated as such are Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi (manipulation of the black flames), and Susanoo.
    -Sasuke himself never said Tsukuyomi was in his arsenal, or even necessary to create Susanoo. That was strictly Itachi.

    2a) For those who argue that Tsukuyomi is required for Susanoo, must also believe that all mastered MS users and Sasuke all have the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror as it is stated by the databook.

    Most important point for those who disagree and must address in their counterpoint:

    Tsukuyomi's defining characteristic is that it lasts for an instant as it controls space and time for the victim. It is confirmed Sasuke does not have that defining characteristic (though he can cast 'stronger' genjutsu via his MS). Kagutsuchi's defining characteristic is that it allows spatial control of the black flames. It is confirmed that Itachi does not have that defining characteristic (though he can stop the flames via his MS).

    Can you claim that Sasuke and Itachi possess those techniques if they lack what sets them apart as techniques?

    Looking forward to hearing responses.
     
  3. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Tsukuyumi is a jutsu that had up until recently only been seen as Itachi's tsukuyumi. Danzou himself said that itachi's was superior, which means that it would able to be used in more wide, varying ways. The same way that sasuke amaterasu is superior to his brothers, shape manipulation and willfully extinguishable. Doese that mean itachi doesnt have amaterasu? Further more it appears as if the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS regardless of who unlocks it.
     
  4. ?_Camorra_? All ur chicken belongs to me

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    lolz Reading comprehension FTW :zaru Yes Sasuke does have Tsukiyomi as its stated in the 3rd DB that you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susanoo but that doesent mean his Tsukiyomi is the same as Itachi's,Sasuke's Tsukiyomi lacks the space/time altering aspect but its still Tsukiyomi.
     
  5. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Exactly this :datass

    Also I would say tsukiyomi doesn't effect space and time, but rather the minds perception of these things, which really is only more example of Itachi's heavy skill set in genjutsu.
     
  6. Negrito Active Member

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    Didn't read it but felt I had to address this.

    The Totsuka and Yata mirror aren't Susanoo exclusive items. Oro was looking for the sword all his life as stated IIRC. That means that the sword exist outside of Susanoo. Somehow Itachi acquired it and equipped his Susanoo with it.

    Believing Sasuke has Tsukuyomi doesn't make it so that every Susanoo has the items.
     
  7. Yagami_ Active Member

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    No. Madara for one knows the mechanics of the jutsu seeing as how he plans on subjecting the world to Mugen Tsukuyomi. Also, there is no proof that the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS users. Where does Kakashi's Kamui come from and where is his Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?

    What Danzou said was addressed. He never compared Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" to Itachi's. He compared Sasuke's "illusion" to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. 2 big differences.

    Alright, I'll take you seriously for once and take the bait.

    What is a Tsukuyomi without space/time altering aspect then? What sets it apart from other genjutsu without that aspect?

    No, this was addressed. The only "evidence" that one has that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi is the databook. However the same databook says that Susanoo comes with the legendary items. If not every Susanoo comes with the legendary items, then the databook description does not apply.
     
  8. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    I thought this was common knowledge.

    however +rep
     
  9. Judecious Active Member

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    Tsukuyomi+Amaterasu=Susanoo
     
  10. ?_Camorra_? All ur chicken belongs to me

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    Tsukiyomi without the space/time altering aspect still can paralyze the victim and give the caster total control over it,when Itachi usess Tsukiyomi he has total control over the genjutsu realm for 72h ,when Sasuke usess Tsukiyomi on Bee he controls the realm for 2secs,enough to paralyze Bee temporary. Thats the difference.
     
  11. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Danzou is addressing tsukuyomi as what it is, a high level of genjutsu. We have seen no evidence that this justsu actually has any effect on space and time. Rather instead it appears to shock the victims brain and alter their sense of such things. As the time spent there doesn't not actually pass but rather it only appears to do so. That would make it an illusion, which Itachi was more skilled at then sasuke.

    You also didn't address my amaterasu example in comparison to your own.

    I also believe I said that Itachi is the only person people have seen using tsukuyomi, in no way did I imply that no one else could, and as such madara having unlocked MS would of course know how to use, having used it in the past.

    Further more Kakashi's variant of MS was unlocked through unique unknown circumstances that have not been explained. Where as Madara, Itachi and sasuke have all awakened theirs under the same circumstances making them of the same type.
    Also realize that this is a blood line trait which means it will occur the same way in each individual, only its certain aspects can be greater depending on who it is thats using it. Again Sasuke's amatarasu when compared to his brother shows this. As well as the comparison of their tsukuyomi's.
    Then there is the fact that databook is cannon(so i've herd) which you cant argue against, not matter how little sense it makes.
     
  12. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    X


    Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique (魔幻・枷杭の術, Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu)
    Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
    Users: Uchiha Itachi, Uchiha Sasuke

    A make-believe yoke piercing the limbs and body, completely snatching away one's freedom to move!! Once caught in the mind world created by the user, the victim will be tormented with the sensation of having wedges driven through their limbs, completely taking away their body's freedom. At the same time, the physical pain accompanying the illusion reveals the great use this technique has for primarily torture and such.


    for who don't know what tsukiyomi is

    X
    X
     
  13. ?_Camorra_? All ur chicken belongs to me

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    lol Wat? :lmao Itachi's Tsukiyomi is the same fuccing thing but it lasts 72h. and not 2secs.:lmao
     
  14. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Lol all your post is proving is that Itachi is more skilled with Tsukuyomi not that sasuke doesn't have it
     
  15. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    ^
    .............
     
  16. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Judecious, you didn't even read it.

    First to address your last point, Sasuke never displayed any time-controlling in any of his genjutsu. He didn't have the ability.

    Secondly, there's something called a Kaneshibari genjutsu which is what you just described. That is not a characteristic of Tsukuyomi. Look up what it is or I'll post it for you.

    You're kidding right? :notrust

    Tsukuyomi passes by in an instant while the victim's sense of time is controlled by the user. That is a defining characteristic of Tsukuyomi. read the databook page or the other examples which I posted in the first post on what it is. The reason WHY Tsukuyomi can't be broken via a partner or other such means is because of this very aspect. An aspect which Sasuke does not have.

    If he does not have that DEFINING ASPECT, then how can you say he has Tsukuyomi?

    I didn't address it or you didn't read the OP which already addresses that here?

    But the problem is that the defining aspect of Tsukuyomi is the control of space/time in that genjutsu dimension, as is proven in the manga and databook. So again, what makes a tsukuyomi that doesn't have that defining aspect?

    You're trying to obfuscate the point and making justifications here when your post was this:

    And Sasuke's amaterasu is no different from Itachi's. Its just that Sasuke has Kagutsuchi which is a different jutsu from amaterasu which allows him to control the flames.

    The manga itself holds more clout, and I addressed the databook already. And I believe you also think Sasuke has the legendary weapons then as well?
     
  17. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    The defining aspects used in this thread address only Itachi using it as if Itachi was the only character able to use it. He is very good at using it and Sasuke isn't, that doesn't mean sasuke doesn't have the tech. Also tsukoyomi extending time is all part of the illusion, note the key word here, illusion, somthing Itachi was notably good at so of course he can extend it longer periods then Sasuke as he was always the more gifted of the two at this. Also Itachi's tech doese not last longer, only appears to from the perspective of the person it is being used on. Learn genjutsu means, there is no space time involved in an illusion
     
  18. Jinnobi Banned

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    Tsukiyomi without the ability to control time within it is like saying that you can shoot katons without fire.

    No fire = no katon
     
  19. BrokenBonds Blinded by Instinct

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    Are you saying that genjutsu was Shackling Stakes?

    X
    X

    That's Shackling Stakes, it was used on chapter 345 by Itachi and Sasuke against Orochimaru.

    People assume genjutsu you displayed was Tsukuyomi because it required the Mangekyo to preform it, and it briefly caused pain to his right eye (which is assumed to be the eye able to cast Tsukuyomi, for the left is the eye he uses for Amaterasu).
     
  20. Yagami_ Active Member

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    @sazon,

    You have a profoundly different understanding of what we're talking about here. That "time-extending" aspect is exactly the point that's being discussed here. You're seeming to have some issue with the definition of tsukuyomi being a "space/time" control issue, but what you need to understand is that the description applies to the genjutsu world.

    What's being talked about here is that Tsukuyomi -by its very definition- controls the perception of a victim's time and reality while an instant passes by in the real world.

    So, a Tsukuyomi could make a victim feel whatever for a countless amount of time while only an instant passes by in the real world.

    However a standard genjutsu works IN REAL TIME. Meaning that if someone is in a genjutsu for 5 minutes, then 5 minutes also passes in the real world. For Tsukuyomi, those 5 minutes would pass by in an instant in the real world.

    That is the power of Tsukuyomi. That is what sets it apart from other genjutsu.

    yet you're telling me that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi when he lacks the ability to do its intended function (the very thing that sets it apart from other genjutsu)? Tell me exactly what a Tsukuyomi without the time/space alteration on the victim's part is? What sets it apart from other genjutsu?
     
  21. dungsi27 dung si diet muoi

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    Actually it is possible that Sasukes Tsukyomi can control the opponents perception of time and space as well.However its just too weak.You know for example Itachi can make 1 second look like 3 days,while Sasukes Tsukyomi is only strong enough to make 1 second look like,say,2 seconds.It still can,but not strong enough.
     
  22. StuckInADaze Member

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    Awesome thread OP, it's a shame most people didn't read it in it's entirety before replying :giogio

    Despite all of the overwhelming evidence you provided, there's still some points that make things confusing. If Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, why is there emphasis on his right mangekyo sharingan (where Tsukuyomi would be casted from, if he had it) when we see him cast a genjutsu? Why when Bee broke Sasuke's genjutsu, did Sasuke receive pain in his eye?

    I do agree Sasuke hasn't shown the defining characteristic of Tsukuyomi, I just don't understand those two points if it isn't Tsukuyomi.
     
  23. Trent Joker, Smoker, Midnight Toker

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    And the reason Oro never found this legendary sword was that it did not exist in the real world.

    You can't "equip" a real sword to a Yin chakra construct.

    "Awakening" both MS eyes = Sasuke's Susanoo, no Tsukiyomi mentioned anywhere for him.

    Which is what regular sharingan genjutsu does.

    He used a binding genjutsu on Bee akin to X that was consequently broken by Hachibi.

    Nope, not in real time it doesn't.

    You cannot use Tsukiyomi as a binding genjutsu by definition since it has no duration in real time, only within the illusion.

    The only difference with Kasegui is the visual style of the jutsu that is more fitting to MS "Hawk" Sasuke, that's all. It worked exactly like Kasegui and unlike Tsukiyomi.

    Yes, but that Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu doesn't mean that "all MS genjutsu is Tsukiyomi".

    Itachi's genjutsu has a very specific definition and effect but of course any MS bearer still has access to all basic sharingan abilities .

    It would be retarded if activating MS would remove the ability to cast all other known genjutsus, with their varied effects. :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  24. Vergil642 Nikushimi's Successor

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    Tsukuyomi is defined by it's ability to effectively render the user omnipotent within the confines of the Genjutsu (ie, within the victim's mind/perception).

    Sasuke's Genjutsu lacks this ability.

    You're telling us that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi despite his Genjutsu not actually exhibiting the properties of the Genjutsu?
     
  25. King Scoop Active Member

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    Tsukuyomi gives the user a blank canvas to do whatever they want to their opponent. It's effects all come from the user's creativity, and actually skill in Genjutsu. Sasuke just isn't as skilled as Itachi. And probably not as creative when it comes to using it as well. His version is still effective, it's just not as good as Itachi's.
     
  26. Smiley Banned

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    Sasuke, does have Tsukuyomi. Many Manga scans has made it absolutely explicit as to why he does. Firstly if you look below:

    X

    There's a reason why the illustrators put emphasis on Sasuke's right Mangekyō Sharingan - like Itachi, it portrays that he's utilizing a technique. Ask yourself this, why would one purposely zoom in on the eye, if it were merely another technique? Not to mention, no other Genjutsu thus far from the Mangekyō Sharingan has been shown or even stated apart from Tsukuyomi.

    Furthermore, I find your reasoning slightly invalid: ''Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't have the characteristics of Tsukuyomi.'' That's false, since when was it a default setting that Tsukuyomi had to resemble Itachi's?

    If you read here >[X]< Danzō made a direct comparison between Itachi's Tsukuyomi, and Sasuke's. One cannot make a comparison without witnessing both techniques - Moreover, he also said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is ''Far below him as the land and the sky.'' which directly tells us that Itachi was a much more profficient user, and immediately negates your arguement of ''Sasuke not having the characteristics.''

    To conclude >[X]< shows us yet another zoomed in angle of Sasuke's Mangekyō Sharingan - something Madara even commented on pages later.
     
  27. hussamb Active Member

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    great thread here. and i have a new q for u :)
    u r telling us that sasuke is having full control of Amaterasu, in one eye he create it, and in other eye he control the shape and the size of it. do u think sasuke is going to create a jutsu like rasengan shape that contain Amaterasu fire in? i am asking this becoz naruto is having the wind rasengan... sasuke will have fire one... sasuke could not do this advance shape manipulation ( it is stated in the databook that resengan is the most advanced shape manipulation ) by him self, but he could do it with his eye!
     
  28. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    Itachi and Kakashi's talk was longer than 1 second.....
     
  29. Trent Joker, Smoker, Midnight Toker

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    Yes, there's a reason and you gave it yourself, it's there to show a jutsu is being used, you know, like in pretty much any case a sharingan jutsu is used? :)

    And this being the very 1st time we were seing another MS user in a fight, this was the 1st occasion where it was possible to show that different genjutsus can be used.

    Again, that Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu doesn't mean that "all MS genjutsu is Tsukiyomi".

    You're not saying that an MS bearer loses the basic abilities of his sharingan such as genjutsu casting when activating the stronger form of his sharingan, are you?

    Because the jutsu, how it works and its effects are defined in detail in the data book and manga and Sasuke's genjutsu works nothing alike.

    This does the opposite as Danzou never mentioned "Sasuke's Tsukiyomi", he mentions Sasuke's illusion, as in his sharingan genjutsu. That he doesn't use the words "Sasuke's Tsukiyomi" actually should be a hint.

    His entire point is that because Itachi had the Tsukiyomi jutsu in his arsenal, he was in a different league than Sasuke in that field due to the specific time perception manipulation ability that defines it.

    And how isn't this the most basic form of (sharingan) genjutsu? Deceiving the target's senses to make him believe something is there that isn't?

    In what way is that even remotely linked to the known effects of the Tsukiyomi jutsu? :)
     
  30. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Thats probably the best counterpoint i've seen by far and is an interesting argument. It's something I could actually respect if there was more proof shown in the manga as well.

    Yeah you bring up a good point, but when I'm saying that sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi, it doesn't mean that he can't cast his genjutsu (or even stronger than normal MS genjutsu) out of that eye. In fact there seems to be much focus on that eye just in general: It's the one that he casted the MS genjutsu against the Cloud ninja, against Killer Bee, against Danzou (all different types of genjutsu btw) yes, but IIRC it was also the same eye he grabbed after one-shotting Shii in his base Sharingan, and its the eye he grabbed when he was having vision problems when just trying to grab a drink of water when he was recuperating with Taka.

    This is not a matter of creativity; its a matter of definition. In this case, Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that lasts for an instant in the real world while space/time is controlled by the user in the genjutsu world. Everything else is superfluous to understanding.

    Trent already addressed this admirably. But to further build upon that point, you say that MS Genjutsu=Tsukuyomi. So does that mean that this instance:

    X

    and the instance where Itachi showed Sasuke the history of the Uchiha means that he was using Tsukuyomi? i mean since according to your argument, he would have had to be using it since he was using the MS.

    I don't think he'll be doing anything like that. Having something like an "Amaterasu Rasengan" doesn't really seem likely unless if they were using it to tag-team someone, rather than using it against each other. i don't see sasuke wanting to copy Naruto in that sense.
     
  31. Smiley Banned

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    Oh wait, this is the Mangekyō Sharingan, no?

    Unfortunately, that did not make an ounce of sense. If it were merely normal Genjutsu, why on Earth would Sasuke need to utilize the Mangekyō Sharingan when the normal three-tamoe would suffice? Seems like your logic is controversial.

    I take it you never saw Danzō's statement contrasting the two? As I said, Tsukuyomi doesn't come with a default setting - such as Itachi's characteristics.

    Incorrect; one cannot simply compare two of the same techniques without witnessing both. It's like saying ''That Boxers punch is extremely strong, but that little kids one lacks power.'' A fallacy, isn't it? Danzō comparing Itachi's Tsukuyomi to Sasuke's ''Regular Genjutsu'' randomly, makes no sense what so ever.

    Your reasoning is very vague; you seem to think that because Sasuke's Tsukuyomi lacks the characteristics of Itachi's Tsukuyomi, it isn't Tsukuyomi. Ok, since that's the case, is Hiraishin a space-time technique? It shouldn't be, because it lacks the same features of Madara's space-time Jutsu, correct?
     
  32. Uzumakinaru Active Member

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    Sasuke does have Tsukiyomi, Danzou said cleary as possible that he had the technique but was not as powerfull as Itachis...
     
  33. Yagami_ Active Member

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    No he didn't, Uzumakinaru. I suggest you read the OP since its obvious that you didn't.

    So did Itachi use Tsukuyomi when telling the history of the Uchiha to Sasuke, or when he displayed the Uchiha 4-eyed demon?

    Tsukuyomi=MS Genjutsu doesn't mean All MS genjutsu=Tsukuyomi. What you are committing is a logical fallacy.

    How is that relevant why he chose to use the Mangekyou or not in that instance? You have failed to prove that he used Tsukuyomi, and you haven't explained what exactly a Tsukuyomi without its defining element actually does that sets it apart from other genjutsu.


    Actually it does come with a "default setting" and that "setting" are the characteristics explained by the manga, as already shown in the OP. What you are saying has no backing in the manga.

    That doesn't make sense as Danzou himself never compared "the same techniques". As Trent pointed out and as the text itself says, Danzou compared Sasuke's "illusion" to Itachi's "Tsukuyomi". You would only have standing in your argument if it said something to the effect of "Compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, yours (or "your Tsukuyomi") is as far below him as the land is to the sky." Unfortunately for your argument, the text says no such thing.

    Not a good analogy at all. In this case, it would be akin to someone saying Madara's S/T jutsu is Hiraishin, despite the fact that we know that the defining aspect to Hiraishin are its tags.
     
  34. Smiley Banned

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    Hm? I'm comitting a logical fallacy? Apparently, you and Trent say it's not Tsukuyomi, merely because it lacks the characteristics of Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

    Sasuke has Enton Kagutsuchi, a high-degree manipulation of the former Amaterasu - something Itachi does not have. So, according to you, Itachi doesn't have Amaterasu, no?

    Cool story brah.

    More excuses, Yagami? Why would Sasuke have to utilize the Mangekyō Sharingan, to then use normal Genjutsu? Does that even make sense? That's like me bringing a Bazooka to war, to then shoot out normal rounds of a hand gun.

    ''How is that relevant.'' - I've seen better excuses.

    Cool Story Brah.

    Incorrect; I take it that your simply choosing to ignore Danzō's explicit statement, of Itachi's Tsukuyomi being much superior to Sasuke's, therfore the reason he is lacking the space-time perception. I don't need ''backing'' in the Manga, when common sense suffices.

    Can you come to a conclusion, without witnessing both techniques? It's virtually impossible - unless ofcourse your bias.

    Incorrect; the basis of yours and Trents arguement is that ''Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, merely due to it lacking the characteristics of Itachi's.'' Can that logic not therfore not be used in other cases?

    Forgive me for my double posting; but I would like to ask both Trent and Yagami only one question.

    Why would Sasuke utilize the Mangekyō Sharingan, to then activate a normal Genjutsu which can be incororated with the normal three-tamoe Sharingan? I would like you to take your time and think about that long, and hard.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2010
  35. Trent Joker, Smoker, Midnight Toker

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    Yeah, why would anyone use a stronger form of the eye instead of the basic form, right? :p

    What do you think would happen in a fight where Sasuke fights using his MS and he decides he needs to use a binding sharingan genjutsu? Would he stop using his MS, change back to the weaker 3 tomoe sharingan, cast his binding genjutsu, then switch back up again to the MS for the rest of the fight? :amuse

    Or would he just use his more powerful eye to cast said binding sharingan genjutsu? One could venture that doing so could even create a souped up MS version of said binding genjutsu, maybe modifiying its visual aspect like, I dunno, X

    You cannot be serious. :huh

    Danzou is comparing their respective general genjutsu casting abilities and he points out that Itachi had an ace in his deck in that field with Tsukiyomi as the jutsu gave him time manipulation ability.

    Your analogy doesn't work, as Danzou would in your example be comparing "fighting abilities" in general and point out that the boxer possess an ability that is exclusive to him, and said unique ability puts him above the otherwise great other boxer.

    Itachi is leagues above his brother in the area of genjutsu casting precisely because he alone can use Tsukiyomi. That's Danzou's point.

    Tsukiyomi isn't a field of ability, it's a specific jutsu. Genjutsu is the field in which Tsuikyomi belongs to alongside all other genjutsus.

    Similarly, Hiraishin is a specific jutsu, and it belongs to the space-time ninjutsu category alongside other jutsu such as Madara's.

    Again, Tsukiyomi doesn't mean "MS Genjutsu", it is one (MS) genjutsu.
     
  36. Yagami_ Active Member

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    LOL, now this is funny. Don't worry, I'll address every one of your points, but first I need to point something out so that everyone else here can get why your argument is so comical and why it's no use really debating with someone on your level.

    The major issue with your argument is that you provide no definition on your own on what Tsukuyomi is, and you indiscriminately shoot down everything that describes it in the manga because it goes against your argument. This thread is based on manga fact. I have gathered every description of the jutsu as demonstrated in the manga and databook regarding its description, and in every single one of them they described the aspect of it lasting an instant due to the space/time control of the genjutsu dimension by the user. That is Tsukuyomi, and it was shown in the manga that is what distinguishes it from other genjutsu.

    What you are doing is disagreeing on what the jutsu actually does without offering any sort of definition of your own. And you cannot because I have taken ALL the definitions from the manga and databook and show them in the OP. You have not explained what a Tsukuyomi is without its distinguishing time/space control of the genjutsu dimension. You at first tried to awkwardly bring up the logical fallacy on how all MS Genjutsu=Tsukuyomi, but when I brought up Itachi showing the Uchiha history and the 4-eyed demon via MS genjutsu and asked if it was Tsukuyomi, you attempt to clumsily redirect and obfuscate the issue by bringing up flawed analogies and bringing up your misreading of Danzou's words. As both Trent and I already brought up, the text clearly states Sasuke's "illusion" was compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi and this is backed up by all translations. It was never stated Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" was being compared. The fact that you continue to persist in your misreading of the text is tellling on the lack of merit on your argument.

    The other point you bring up, this:

    I question how it even serves your argument or how it makes sense at all. Enton Kagutschi is a separate and designated jutsu of Sasuke's MS; something specifically stated to give him spatial control over the black flames. It is NOT Amaterasu, so how does that even make sense that just because Itachi lacks Kagutsuchi, then he would lack Amaterasu?

    And it's not that the "logic cannot be used" using that analogy; it's that your analogy is flawed to begin with. If someone says that they have a S/T technique which lets them teleport that doesn't use tags and they call it Hiraishin, it would NOT be Hiraishin as described in the text. According to the argument you're using, it would still be known as Hiraishin but not Minato's Hiraishin. That is the level of the argument that you're making here.

    Your whole argument is baseless until you can provide a definition on what Tsukuyomi is in the first place. And since that is your argument, you must also acknowledge that every mastered MS user including Sasuke has the spiritual items, since that is what it states in the databook.

    I believe all your points have been addressed, so address mine now "brah". For some reason I expect more obfuscation and pathetic redirects :maybe
     
  37. goldendriger So DOES want a custom title!

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    So...lemme see if i understand? People are saying Sasuke doesnt have Tsukuyomi cause he didnt use it as well as Itachi or have the right "Characteristics"? Seriously? Itachi was a Genjutsu master, he beat Kurenai (A Jonin Genjutsu master) with his basic Sharingan, Sasuke has never shown that level of skill with Genjutsu. Isnt this like saying "Itachi cant use Amaterasu cause he didnt use Sasuke's Blaze Release? Itachi didnt have full mastery of it, so Itachi doesnt have it" Simple, Sasuke is better at Ninjutsu (Or at the least Amaterasu) than Itachi, so he can wield it better, same with Itachi and Genjutsu. Give 2 people a sword, they might use it differently one may pierce with it and one may just swing and hope for the best, does that mean one isnt holding a sword? No, it just means 1 is more adept than the other and as a result can use it more effectively.
     
  38. Smiley Banned

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    ''LOL, now this is funny. Don't worry, I'll address every one of your points, but first I need to point something out so that everyone else here can get why your argument is so comical and why it's no use really debating with someone on your level.''

    Ouch, turning a debate into personal attacks - very mature. It only conveys your anger. By the looks of it, my ''arguement'' seems to be the predominant issue here.

    By the way, Shaidar Haran lurks around quite alot, so it would be prudent to edit your post and refrain yourself from flamebaiting me. :maybe
     
  39. Yagami_ Active Member

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    @goldendriger,

    Actually no. You would have a point if "Blaze Release" wasn't a separate jutsu and was included with Amaterasu, but it's not.

    Sasuke and Itachi both have "mastered" Amaterasu; Sasuke just has an additional jutsu which allows him to actually control the shape of the flames which Itachi does not have.
     
  40. Yagami1211 This title has been overriden by Trombe!

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    If Sasuke can use Susano'o, he haves Tsukuyomi. period.
     
  41. goldendriger So DOES want a custom title!

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    Yes, but by the same logic Sasuke is better than Itachi at Amaterasu, so he can use it better. Same thing with Itachi, Itachi is a genjutsu master so naturally he'd use Tsukuyomi better than Sasuke does, Plus maybe Itachi started off at Sasuke's level and it grew stronger but Sasuke wasted him MS in like...a week? Itachi has his for years, so maybe his MS Mastery also contributed to Tsukuyomi being so powerful?
     
  42. Yagami_ Active Member

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    "Flaimebaiting" you? :lmao Please "brah", don't flatter yourself. You rely on on pathetic redirects and obfuscations because you know your argument lacks merit. All the manga evidence is on my side and it's clear you not only haven't read the OP (which addresses your "arguements" - btw that's your spelling not mine), but you're not addressing anyones points while we're addressing yours.

    You still haven't addressed anything that I just said and you're now hoping that this quite childish need for mod-pity will save you from actually having to support your argument. Sorry but it was you and your childish attitude which gave the "flaimebaiting" attitude..."brah".

    Stick to the subject and learn how to actually address someone's post.
     
  43. kurisu Pure Oharan

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    Spoiler:
    X


    this took way too long :giogio

    Danzou: Itachi's Tsukyomi

    which means sasuke did indeed use tsukyomi.. if not.. than danzou would have said

    Danzou: thats nothing compared to Tsukyomi


    seriously, sasuke has it.. its just not as haxxed as itachi's.. just like how his amaterasu is better than his brother's..

    and both danzou and madara outright called it susano'o, so there you have it..

     
  44. Yagami_ Active Member

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    You didn't read the opening.

    But that's the thing though, Sasuke simply has another "power" which lets him do things with Amaterasu that Itachi can't do. Sasuke has to utilize a power from a different eye in order to manipulate Amaterasu and be "better" at it than Itachi. If both Sasuke and Itachi were to fight with one Mangekyou eye using Amaterasu, they would both be equal in its application (not counting chakra amount/stamina). However if you add in both eyes, Sasuke will be clearly and by far superior with Amaterasu, while Itachi would have a far better genjutsu than Sasuke. You understand what I'm getting at?
     
  45. Yagami_ Active Member

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    @Uzumakinaru,

    Did you read the op yet? I posted that page there in my reasoning on why Sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi.

    I have a better translation of that page and I posted it in the op (which I'm not sure that you read). But even using your Sleepyfags translation, you forgot what it says on the page right before the one you posted. I'd like it if you could post the part where it says "Sasuke's Tsukuyomi", if you can.

    Also that narutowiki is a fansite, you know that right? Why did you post it?
     
  46. Smiley Banned

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    Actually Yagami..-

    I am still awaiting my answer for this, alas.

    You and Trent, are obviously not familiar with linguistics - if you couldn't even comprehend what Danzō initially stated.

    It seems that your portraying a never-ending argument, even though your wrong. My point stands, there has been no other Mangekyō Genjutsu apart from Tsukuyomi, that has the most applied emphasis to.

    And calling someone ''Brah'' is cleary not a flamebait, rather a colloquial term used throught the Internet. Moreover, using the word ''Comical'' to desribe my ''argument'' and ''someone on my level'' certainly is.
     
  47. Clay The Writing Writer Super Moderator

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    That was retconned into a more general statement by Sasuke himself many chapters after the Third Databook, so Sasuke's statement stands as the information in the Databook is now outdated.

    As an example, it was never mentioned ninja can be broken free of Edo Tensei if they achieve "closure" (Sai's brother seeing the picture, Sasori finally passing on his puppets to the next generation), nor that the Rasengan is based off of the Menacing Ball. What's written in the Databook is information Kishimoto wants you to know at the time, not the truth. Since he didn't want people thinking someone else would be able to ever use Susano'o, he only included information on Itachi's.
     
  48. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Right, we're not obviously familiar with linguistics despite the fact that Danzou clearly stated he was comparing Itachi's Tsukuyomi to Sasuke's "illusion" or "genjutsu" in all the translations. "Cool story brah" :maybe

    And I figured I already answered a question similar to this already so I didn't bother, but I'll take the bait. Since when exactly was him using Mangekyou for genjutsu mean that it was Tsukuyomi? Sasuke used a Mangekyou genjutsu against the Cloud ninja in order to extract information from him as well as hypnotize him. Presumably it may provide a stronger form of hypnosis as it takes more power than regular Sharingan. However Hebi Sasuke performed the same type of feat when controlling Manda (some say that's even more of an impressive feat). Itachi performed that same type of technique on the woman to draw away Jiraiya.

    Itachi used the Mangekyou genjutsu to tell the history of the Uchiha. But Sasuke used the same type of genjutsu with his 3 tomoe Sharingan when showing Kabuto how he overtook Orochimaru in his own dimension. Itachi and Sasuke used Magen Kasegui to shackle Orochimaru with regular Sharingan genjutsu, but Sasuke used an MS Genjutsu with the same exact application on Killer Bee. Is there any rhyme or reason to why that is? Moreover, you see how all these examples make that point irrelevant?

    You say that but you haven't proven anything. I've clearly shown cases such as the above where a Mangekyou genjutsu was used when we know a regular Sharingan can perform the same feat.

    And of course Tsukuyomi has the most emphasis since it's made possible by the MS. That does not mean MS genjutsu are always Tsukuyomi. That's a logical fallacy once again.

    Sorry "brah" but that doesn't fly especially when you're saying "cool story brah" after every point you make which is clear "flamebait". Do you even know what can be done to you if you say "brah" to someone you don't even know where I live? You deserved whatever response I dished out to you with such a childish condescending attitude. Grow up.

    Oh, and I'm still looking for you to address the points I made, which you still have not done.
     
  49. Trent Joker, Smoker, Midnight Toker

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    So you clearly do not read people's answers apparently. :huh

    For example, this was answered more than an hour ago on last page and you failed to answer to it. To any point so far actually. I'm starting to think you're just killing time trolling...

    X

    Try adressing any of these points for a change. You still haven't answered Yamagi on your definition of Tsukiyomi either by the way.

    Says the guy who failed to look at Danzou's actual words, who is comparing their proficiency in casting genjutsu and pointing out the jutsu that put Itachi in a different league due to its specific, unique characteristic.
     
  50. Clay The Writing Writer Super Moderator

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    Regarding this, I think it's pretty obvious. It's no different to Naruto using a normal Rasengan in Sage Mode. Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan was already activated, so it stands to reason that he wouldn't turn it off to use a genjutsu. Besides, we have no idea if genjutsu is further enhanced by the Mangekyo Sharingan (since we know the basic Sharingan does, in fact, boost their effectiveness).

    The important thing to note, the proof that it isn't Tsukuyomi, is right here...

    X

    Surely, if it was Tsukuyomi, only his right eye would "activate"? After all, that's how it worked for Itachi and even C mentioned it was very obvious when Sasuke used Amaterasu with his left eye and manipulated its shape with his right. Don't even get me started on the fact that something as huge as Tsukuyomi would at least be directly named, either by Sasuke himself or at least Madara.

    As well as Danzo's own words...

    "I'll commend you for trapping me in an illusion. However, compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, where he could alter your perception of time at his whim... You are as far below him as the land is to the sky."

    If it was Tsukuyomi, surely Danzo would have said as much simply for the sake of clarification? He was comparing Sasuke's genjutsu to Itachi's finest, nothing else.
     

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