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Why Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi; clarifying Tsukuyomi and Susanoo

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives 2' started by Yagami_, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. Yagami_ Active Member

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    There's been some ongoing debate about whether MS Sasuke had Tsukuyomi the jutsu (this of course doesn't address EMS Sasuke since he should have Itachi's powers now). This thread is to prove that he did not display the jutsu for what it's known by. Address the arguments brought up in this thread if you feel differently; don't just regurgitate things that have already been addressed and I will address what you say. Now let's start off.

    Spoiler: First, what is Tsukuyomi?
    People don't realize that there is actually an OFFICIAL description on what this jutsu is meant to do. This is what Tsukuyomi is according to both the databook and according to the manga (look at what I bolded or underlined):

    Spoiler: Databook 2: tsukuyomi entry translation by Gottheim

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47905


    Spoiler: Tsukuyomi according to Itachi

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/143/17




    Spoiler: Tsukuyomi according to Kakashi

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/258/8




    Spoiler: Tsukuyomi according to Danzou

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/479/3

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/479/4


    note: Sasuke's "illusion" compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, not Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" compared to Itachi's.



    So what we can conclude from this regardless of your general position on whether he has tsukuyomi or not is that Sasuke does not possess the defining characteristic of the jutsu. According to databook, and all manga instances from credible sources, the defining characteristics of Tsukuyomi is that it happens in an instant due to the control of space and time. This is a fact as it is backed up by every evidence in the manga. There is nothing else that distinguishes Tsukuyomi from other genjutsu besides that characteristic.

    This of course naturally leads up to the following argument: isn't Tsukuyomi required for Susanoo? We need to understand what the jutsu is first.

    To be continued-
     
  2. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Spoiler: Now, what is Susanoo?

    Spoiler: According to the databook 3 entry

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1175216&postcount=1


    Spoiler: And according to Itachi on how he got Susanoo

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/393/3




    according to the databook description, Susanoo is only activated once Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are awakened. According to Itachi, all three techniques awoke in his Mangekyou when he killed Shisui.

    However, also according to the description, Susanoo must come with Totsuka blade and Yata mirror, two legendary spiritual items which Itachi obtained.

    The databook is the only piece of evidence people are using to say that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi (due to the Susanoo requirement). So for those who say that he has Tsukuyomi according to the databook must also acknowledge every mastered MS user and Sasuke also have the legendary spiritual items.

    If one believes in the latter statement then we agree to disagree. If not, then here's more supporting the argument on why it only applies to Itachi:

    Spoiler: Reasons why that databook description of Susanoo only applies to Itachi and not any other MS user

    Spoiler: There are different versions of Susanoo

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/477/7



    -Sasuke's version utilizes the bow/shield and uses arrows in its incomplete form
    -Itachi's version uses the spiritual items, even in its incomplete form (used the Yata mirror to block the exploding tags)

    Spoiler: Sasuke never said he unlocked Tsukuyomi, or that it was required for his Susanoo

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/465/17



    Spoiler: Sasuke's "designated" MS abilities are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi

    Spoiler: According to Sasuke

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/416/10



    -Chapter 415 was entitled "A New Power". The ending side-text of the chapter says "Sasuke obtains a new power."

    Spoiler: According to Shii


    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/465/8


    -The only times when MS powers for each eye were named, they were called Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu. There was never an instance of one of his three powers being Tsukuyomi.
    -While Itachi can put out the black flames which is a small partial aspect of Kagutsuchi, he does not possess the ability to actually spatially manipulate them which is the jutsu's core function.



    In conclusion, for those who tl;dr, here's the concise summary:

    1) By definition, Tsukuyomi lasts for an instant as its ability is the control over space and time. This is what separates it from other genjutsu. Something called "Tsukuyomi" which doesn't have that feature is like having a fire that's not hot.
    2)The Susanoo definition found in the databook 3 only applies to Itachi. The reasons for this are:
    -there are different versions of Susanoo as stated by Madara
    -Sasuke's three Mangekyou powers specifically designated as such are Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi (manipulation of the black flames), and Susanoo.
    -Sasuke himself never said Tsukuyomi was in his arsenal, or even necessary to create Susanoo. That was strictly Itachi.

    2a) For those who argue that Tsukuyomi is required for Susanoo, must also believe that all mastered MS users and Sasuke all have the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror as it is stated by the databook.

    Most important point for those who disagree and must address in their counterpoint:

    Tsukuyomi's defining characteristic is that it lasts for an instant as it controls space and time for the victim. It is confirmed Sasuke does not have that defining characteristic (though he can cast 'stronger' genjutsu via his MS). Kagutsuchi's defining characteristic is that it allows spatial control of the black flames. It is confirmed that Itachi does not have that defining characteristic (though he can stop the flames via his MS).

    Can you claim that Sasuke and Itachi possess those techniques if they lack what sets them apart as techniques?

    Looking forward to hearing responses.
     
  3. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Tsukuyumi is a jutsu that had up until recently only been seen as Itachi's tsukuyumi. Danzou himself said that itachi's was superior, which means that it would able to be used in more wide, varying ways. The same way that sasuke amaterasu is superior to his brothers, shape manipulation and willfully extinguishable. Doese that mean itachi doesnt have amaterasu? Further more it appears as if the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS regardless of who unlocks it.
     
  4. ?_Camorra_? All ur chicken belongs to me

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    lolz Reading comprehension FTW :zaru Yes Sasuke does have Tsukiyomi as its stated in the 3rd DB that you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susanoo but that doesent mean his Tsukiyomi is the same as Itachi's,Sasuke's Tsukiyomi lacks the space/time altering aspect but its still Tsukiyomi.
     
  5. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Exactly this :datass

    Also I would say tsukiyomi doesn't effect space and time, but rather the minds perception of these things, which really is only more example of Itachi's heavy skill set in genjutsu.
     
  6. Negrito Active Member

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    Didn't read it but felt I had to address this.

    The Totsuka and Yata mirror aren't Susanoo exclusive items. Oro was looking for the sword all his life as stated IIRC. That means that the sword exist outside of Susanoo. Somehow Itachi acquired it and equipped his Susanoo with it.

    Believing Sasuke has Tsukuyomi doesn't make it so that every Susanoo has the items.
     
  7. Yagami_ Active Member

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    No. Madara for one knows the mechanics of the jutsu seeing as how he plans on subjecting the world to Mugen Tsukuyomi. Also, there is no proof that the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS users. Where does Kakashi's Kamui come from and where is his Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?

    What Danzou said was addressed. He never compared Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" to Itachi's. He compared Sasuke's "illusion" to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. 2 big differences.

    Alright, I'll take you seriously for once and take the bait.

    What is a Tsukuyomi without space/time altering aspect then? What sets it apart from other genjutsu without that aspect?

    No, this was addressed. The only "evidence" that one has that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi is the databook. However the same databook says that Susanoo comes with the legendary items. If not every Susanoo comes with the legendary items, then the databook description does not apply.
     
  8. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    I thought this was common knowledge.

    however +rep
     
  9. Judecious Active Member

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    Tsukuyomi+Amaterasu=Susanoo
     
  10. ?_Camorra_? All ur chicken belongs to me

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    Tsukiyomi without the space/time altering aspect still can paralyze the victim and give the caster total control over it,when Itachi usess Tsukiyomi he has total control over the genjutsu realm for 72h ,when Sasuke usess Tsukiyomi on Bee he controls the realm for 2secs,enough to paralyze Bee temporary. Thats the difference.
     
  11. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Danzou is addressing tsukuyomi as what it is, a high level of genjutsu. We have seen no evidence that this justsu actually has any effect on space and time. Rather instead it appears to shock the victims brain and alter their sense of such things. As the time spent there doesn't not actually pass but rather it only appears to do so. That would make it an illusion, which Itachi was more skilled at then sasuke.

    You also didn't address my amaterasu example in comparison to your own.

    I also believe I said that Itachi is the only person people have seen using tsukuyomi, in no way did I imply that no one else could, and as such madara having unlocked MS would of course know how to use, having used it in the past.

    Further more Kakashi's variant of MS was unlocked through unique unknown circumstances that have not been explained. Where as Madara, Itachi and sasuke have all awakened theirs under the same circumstances making them of the same type.
    Also realize that this is a blood line trait which means it will occur the same way in each individual, only its certain aspects can be greater depending on who it is thats using it. Again Sasuke's amatarasu when compared to his brother shows this. As well as the comparison of their tsukuyomi's.
    Then there is the fact that databook is cannon(so i've herd) which you cant argue against, not matter how little sense it makes.
     
  12. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique (魔幻・枷杭の術, Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu)
    Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
    Users: Uchiha Itachi, Uchiha Sasuke

    A make-believe yoke piercing the limbs and body, completely snatching away one's freedom to move!! Once caught in the mind world created by the user, the victim will be tormented with the sensation of having wedges driven through their limbs, completely taking away their body's freedom. At the same time, the physical pain accompanying the illusion reveals the great use this technique has for primarily torture and such.


    for who don't know what tsukiyomi is


     
  13. ?_Camorra_? All ur chicken belongs to me

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    lol Wat? :lmao Itachi's Tsukiyomi is the same fuccing thing but it lasts 72h. and not 2secs.:lmao
     
  14. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    Lol all your post is proving is that Itachi is more skilled with Tsukuyomi not that sasuke doesn't have it
     
  15. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    ^
    .............
     
  16. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Judecious, you didn't even read it.

    First to address your last point, Sasuke never displayed any time-controlling in any of his genjutsu. He didn't have the ability.

    Secondly, there's something called a Kaneshibari genjutsu which is what you just described. That is not a characteristic of Tsukuyomi. Look up what it is or I'll post it for you.

    You're kidding right? :notrust

    Tsukuyomi passes by in an instant while the victim's sense of time is controlled by the user. That is a defining characteristic of Tsukuyomi. read the databook page or the other examples which I posted in the first post on what it is. The reason WHY Tsukuyomi can't be broken via a partner or other such means is because of this very aspect. An aspect which Sasuke does not have.

    If he does not have that DEFINING ASPECT, then how can you say he has Tsukuyomi?

    I didn't address it or you didn't read the OP which already addresses that here?

    But the problem is that the defining aspect of Tsukuyomi is the control of space/time in that genjutsu dimension, as is proven in the manga and databook. So again, what makes a tsukuyomi that doesn't have that defining aspect?

    You're trying to obfuscate the point and making justifications here when your post was this:

    And Sasuke's amaterasu is no different from Itachi's. Its just that Sasuke has Kagutsuchi which is a different jutsu from amaterasu which allows him to control the flames.

    The manga itself holds more clout, and I addressed the databook already. And I believe you also think Sasuke has the legendary weapons then as well?
     
  17. Disaresta Grim Angel

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    The defining aspects used in this thread address only Itachi using it as if Itachi was the only character able to use it. He is very good at using it and Sasuke isn't, that doesn't mean sasuke doesn't have the tech. Also tsukoyomi extending time is all part of the illusion, note the key word here, illusion, somthing Itachi was notably good at so of course he can extend it longer periods then Sasuke as he was always the more gifted of the two at this. Also Itachi's tech doese not last longer, only appears to from the perspective of the person it is being used on. Learn genjutsu means, there is no space time involved in an illusion
     
  18. Jinnobi Active Member

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    Tsukiyomi without the ability to control time within it is like saying that you can shoot katons without fire.

    No fire = no katon
     
  19. BrokenBonds Blinded by Instinct

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    Are you saying that genjutsu was Shackling Stakes?

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page009.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page010.html

    That's Shackling Stakes, it was used on chapter 345 by Itachi and Sasuke against Orochimaru.

    People assume genjutsu you displayed was Tsukuyomi because it required the Mangekyo to preform it, and it briefly caused pain to his right eye (which is assumed to be the eye able to cast Tsukuyomi, for the left is the eye he uses for Amaterasu).
     
  20. Yagami_ Active Member

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    @sazon,

    You have a profoundly different understanding of what we're talking about here. That "time-extending" aspect is exactly the point that's being discussed here. You're seeming to have some issue with the definition of tsukuyomi being a "space/time" control issue, but what you need to understand is that the description applies to the genjutsu world.

    What's being talked about here is that Tsukuyomi -by its very definition- controls the perception of a victim's time and reality while an instant passes by in the real world.

    So, a Tsukuyomi could make a victim feel whatever for a countless amount of time while only an instant passes by in the real world.

    However a standard genjutsu works IN REAL TIME. Meaning that if someone is in a genjutsu for 5 minutes, then 5 minutes also passes in the real world. For Tsukuyomi, those 5 minutes would pass by in an instant in the real world.

    That is the power of Tsukuyomi. That is what sets it apart from other genjutsu.

    yet you're telling me that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi when he lacks the ability to do its intended function (the very thing that sets it apart from other genjutsu)? Tell me exactly what a Tsukuyomi without the time/space alteration on the victim's part is? What sets it apart from other genjutsu?
     
  21. dungsi27 dung si diet muoi

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    Actually it is possible that Sasukes Tsukyomi can control the opponents perception of time and space as well.However its just too weak.You know for example Itachi can make 1 second look like 3 days,while Sasukes Tsukyomi is only strong enough to make 1 second look like,say,2 seconds.It still can,but not strong enough.
     
  22. StuckInADaze Member

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    Awesome thread OP, it's a shame most people didn't read it in it's entirety before replying :giogio

    Despite all of the overwhelming evidence you provided, there's still some points that make things confusing. If Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, why is there emphasis on his right mangekyo sharingan (where Tsukuyomi would be casted from, if he had it) when we see him cast a genjutsu? Why when Bee broke Sasuke's genjutsu, did Sasuke receive pain in his eye?

    I do agree Sasuke hasn't shown the defining characteristic of Tsukuyomi, I just don't understand those two points if it isn't Tsukuyomi.
     
  23. Trent Joker, Smoker, Midnight Toker

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    And the reason Oro never found this legendary sword was that it did not exist in the real world.

    You can't "equip" a real sword to a Yin chakra construct.

    "Awakening" both MS eyes = Sasuke's Susanoo, no Tsukiyomi mentioned anywhere for him.

    Which is what regular sharingan genjutsu does.

    He used a binding genjutsu on Bee akin to Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Demonic_Illusion:_Shackling_Stakes) that was consequently broken by Hachibi.

    Nope, not in real time it doesn't.

    You cannot use Tsukiyomi as a binding genjutsu by definition since it has no duration in real time, only within the illusion.

    The only difference with Kasegui is the visual style of the jutsu that is more fitting to MS "Hawk" Sasuke, that's all. It worked exactly like Kasegui and unlike Tsukiyomi.

    Yes, but that Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu doesn't mean that "all MS genjutsu is Tsukiyomi".

    Itachi's genjutsu has a very specific definition and effect but of course any MS bearer still has access to all basic sharingan abilities .

    It would be retarded if activating MS would remove the ability to cast all other known genjutsus, with their varied effects. :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  24. Vergil642 Nikushimi's Successor

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    Tsukuyomi is defined by it's ability to effectively render the user omnipotent within the confines of the Genjutsu (ie, within the victim's mind/perception).

    Sasuke's Genjutsu lacks this ability.

    You're telling us that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi despite his Genjutsu not actually exhibiting the properties of the Genjutsu?
     
  25. King Scoop Active Member

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    Tsukuyomi gives the user a blank canvas to do whatever they want to their opponent. It's effects all come from the user's creativity, and actually skill in Genjutsu. Sasuke just isn't as skilled as Itachi. And probably not as creative when it comes to using it as well. His version is still effective, it's just not as good as Itachi's.
     
  26. Smiley Banned

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    Sasuke, does have Tsukuyomi. Many Manga scans has made it absolutely explicit as to why he does. Firstly if you look below:



    There's a reason why the illustrators put emphasis on Sasuke's right Mangekyō Sharingan - like Itachi, it portrays that he's utilizing a technique. Ask yourself this, why would one purposely zoom in on the eye, if it were merely another technique? Not to mention, no other Genjutsu thus far from the Mangekyō Sharingan has been shown or even stated apart from Tsukuyomi.

    Furthermore, I find your reasoning slightly invalid: ''Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't have the characteristics of Tsukuyomi.'' That's false, since when was it a default setting that Tsukuyomi had to resemble Itachi's?

    If you read here >[CHAPTER 478/PAGE 4 (http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/479/4)]< Danzō made a direct comparison between Itachi's Tsukuyomi, and Sasuke's. One cannot make a comparison without witnessing both techniques - Moreover, he also said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is ''Far below him as the land and the sky.'' which directly tells us that Itachi was a much more profficient user, and immediately negates your arguement of ''Sasuke not having the characteristics.''

    To conclude >[CHAPTER 480/PAGE 5 (http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/481/5)]< shows us yet another zoomed in angle of Sasuke's Mangekyō Sharingan - something Madara even commented on pages later.
     
  27. hussamb Active Member

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    great thread here. and i have a new q for u :)
    u r telling us that sasuke is having full control of Amaterasu, in one eye he create it, and in other eye he control the shape and the size of it. do u think sasuke is going to create a jutsu like rasengan shape that contain Amaterasu fire in? i am asking this becoz naruto is having the wind rasengan... sasuke will have fire one... sasuke could not do this advance shape manipulation ( it is stated in the databook that resengan is the most advanced shape manipulation ) by him self, but he could do it with his eye!
     
  28. izanagi x izanami Active Member

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    Itachi and Kakashi's talk was longer than 1 second.....
     
  29. Trent Joker, Smoker, Midnight Toker

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    Yes, there's a reason and you gave it yourself, it's there to show a jutsu is being used, you know, like in pretty much any case a sharingan jutsu is used? :)

    And this being the very 1st time we were seing another MS user in a fight, this was the 1st occasion where it was possible to show that different genjutsus can be used.

    Again, that Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu doesn't mean that "all MS genjutsu is Tsukiyomi".

    You're not saying that an MS bearer loses the basic abilities of his sharingan such as genjutsu casting when activating the stronger form of his sharingan, are you?

    Because the jutsu, how it works and its effects are defined in detail in the data book and manga and Sasuke's genjutsu works nothing alike.

    This does the opposite as Danzou never mentioned "Sasuke's Tsukiyomi", he mentions Sasuke's illusion, as in his sharingan genjutsu. That he doesn't use the words "Sasuke's Tsukiyomi" actually should be a hint.

    His entire point is that because Itachi had the Tsukiyomi jutsu in his arsenal, he was in a different league than Sasuke in that field due to the specific time perception manipulation ability that defines it.

    And how isn't this the most basic form of (sharingan) genjutsu? Deceiving the target's senses to make him believe something is there that isn't?

    In what way is that even remotely linked to the known effects of the Tsukiyomi jutsu? :)
     
  30. Yagami_ Active Member

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    Thats probably the best counterpoint i've seen by far and is an interesting argument. It's something I could actually respect if there was more proof shown in the manga as well.

    Yeah you bring up a good point, but when I'm saying that sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi, it doesn't mean that he can't cast his genjutsu (or even stronger than normal MS genjutsu) out of that eye. In fact there seems to be much focus on that eye just in general: It's the one that he casted the MS genjutsu against the Cloud ninja, against Killer Bee, against Danzou (all different types of genjutsu btw) yes, but IIRC it was also the same eye he grabbed after one-shotting Shii in his base Sharingan, and its the eye he grabbed when he was having vision problems when just trying to grab a drink of water when he was recuperating with Taka.

    This is not a matter of creativity; its a matter of definition. In this case, Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that lasts for an instant in the real world while space/time is controlled by the user in the genjutsu world. Everything else is superfluous to understanding.

    Trent already addressed this admirably. But to further build upon that point, you say that MS Genjutsu=Tsukuyomi. So does that mean that this instance:

    http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/387/15

    and the instance where Itachi showed Sasuke the history of the Uchiha means that he was using Tsukuyomi? i mean since according to your argument, he would have had to be using it since he was using the MS.

    I don't think he'll be doing anything like that. Having something like an "Amaterasu Rasengan" doesn't really seem likely unless if they were using it to tag-team someone, rather than using it against each other. i don't see sasuke wanting to copy Naruto in that sense.
     

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