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Why Rikudou's elder son and younger son were so different

Discussion in 'Konoha Library' started by bearzerger, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    I've been thinking about what makes the two brothers so different. Just why the two of them inherited so vastly different abilities from their father and why the elder fell under the curse of hatred which his descendants haven't ever been able to overcome.

    The reason I've come up with is that it's because of Rikudou's state of mind at the time of their conception. I'm going to assume that the elder and the younger brother aren't twins, but that there is a bit of an age gap.

    Madara's hype aside Rikudou Sennin was only a human. Just like Naruto he would have had to struggle with his own darker impulses and it's unreasonable to assume that he immediately mastered the control over the Jyuubi the second he became a jinchuuriki. He must have taught himself bit by bit to become a perfect jinchuuriki.
    That means, just like with Naruto in the beginning the Jyuubi was preying on RS darker emotions and he may have at times lost control. Again just like Naruto. Only after some struggle did he learn the secret of "filling the vessel with love" Uzumaki Mito told us about and that's when he took complete control over the Jyuubi. However, he died before he could progress any further than Naruto is right now, a state where the Jyuubi was only dominated and hadn't come to an accord with its host like the Hachibi and B.

    Now, what I propose is that the elder son was concieved before Rikudou found the secret of the filled vessel and the younger son after.
    That way a part of the unpurified and poisonous chakra of the Jyuubi was passed on to the elder as was some of its hatred while only the exceptional lifeforce Naruto enjoys in his kyuubi chakra mode was passed on to the younger.
    This would explain why the power of the Uchiha is rooted in hatred, why it's called a cursed bloodline, why the sharingan has the same tomoe the Jyuubi did, but which Rikudou himself didn't have, and finally why the Sharingan with all its upgrades can be considered equal to the Rinnegan and not inferior.

    It also explains why the Uchiha always clashed with the Senju. The part of the Jyuubi inside them wants to destroy the love Rikudou passed on to the Senju side.

    The lesson of the story is don't get a girl pregnant when you are carrying too much emotional baggage. XD
     
  2. FirzenNaruto B.A.N.G.

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    lol, the "moral of the story " got me, epic man!!

    aaanywas, Something like that might have happened but I doubt Kishi put too much thought on that subject...
     
  3. Shikamaru Nara Laziest guy alive!

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    It sounds nice and its quite possible.

    It may sound crazy but since its Naruto we're talking about i'll throw this idea into this thread...is there a possibility that Rikudou never had a wife but just "created" the two sons with Yin/Yang manipulation?If he did that, he maybe could decide what powers the son is "born" with.

    Since the question always was how to achive peace?With might or love as the key?

    With Rikudou Sennin having both, he maybe never knew what it was that made him capable of bringing peace to the world, his power or his love?
     
  4. americaoffline Cat likes Cake.

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    or they had 2 mamas.

    so it's a extended family feud!
     
  5. Artful Lurker &#32

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    Maybe because one was born first and one was born last or maybe because one received eyes and the other received a body.
     
  6. Dark Red Z PROBLEM?

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    Not bad, OP, not bad. +rep.
     
  7. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    I'd say that would be a bit unnecessary. Why would Rikudou create his sons like that? What's wrong with the regular way?

    Oh and RS never brought the world to peace. That was his goal, but he never accomplished it.

    In case you missed it the point of this thread was to offer an explanation why they are so different and not merely to repeat what their differences are.
     
  8. alchemy1234 Active Member

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    interesting idea. I believe that juubis dna had fused with rikudous and the elder son inherited some of juubis dna; hence the ocular powers. The second son inherited only rikudous DNA and therefore does not have any ocular powers and isn't touched by that 'tinge' of evil that the uchiha and the elder son are apparently cursed with.

    I really like your theory though, the only problem would be explaining how rikudous state of mind would transfer to his yet to be born son. I feel the DNA explanation explains this transfer, but I like what you've come up with.
     
  9. Ultear Mystic Eyes of Meme Perception

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    I like +rep aswell
     
  10. seastone A hidden

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    Nice thoery but I do suspect that the Sage of six paths made his own children.

    That by taking his own power, he split them up into two children. So they would work together but with elder son with his chakra and spiritual energy he transfered traces of his own darkness and the Jubbi into the elder son.

    Actually it is more convenient to use the power of creation. Why go through the trouble to find a woman if you can make children yourself? More so considering a lot of things can go wrong with the normal way considering how long ago it was.

    I mean for one thing it pretty odd how the children's abilities were perfectly split up. That each is one side of the coin and together results in gaining the power of the Six paths.

    It is similar to how putting together the Bijuu will result in the Juubi.
     
  11. PureWIN Mr. Prince

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    That would make sense if RS was a woman and his chakra mixed with the children during the pregnancy (similar to what happened to Naruto). However, I doubt his sperm carried the Juubi's chakra or hatred, or whatever. :maybe

    It could however be attributed to the way he raised them. If he raised the Eldest Son with bitterness and hatred inside of his heart, but then raised the Younger Son with love and peace, then there would obviously be both a personality and a jealously issue.

    Overall, good theory. +reps
     
  12. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    You forget that the emotional state has a direct influence on the chakra. As Sasuke fell more and more into hatred his chakra became colder, Naruto's chakra is particular warm, but Karin and Bee both felt the darkness inside of him and the Kyuubi's chakra is so full of malice it's poisonous. And once the chakra is affected it shouldn't be a surprise if it affected the kid. Afterall chakra can do anything.

    It just doesn't sound likely that Kishi would have Rikudou resort to such measures. That guy is supposed to be the first beacon of light in a dark world and Naruto is supposed to step into his boots. Just like I don't see Naruto creating his own artificial offspring like that even if he had the power to do so I don't think Rikudou did. Such experiments are for those who have fallen into darkness and not for those who represent the light.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  13. seastone A hidden

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    Also why do you consider it "dark" and "artificial"?

    Whenever you use sperm and egg or Ying/Yang release. The result is the same, it is life.

    Like the Bijuus they are living beings with personalities, sentience and chance to grow on their own. They aren't lesser forms of life. Why wouldn't Sage love his children?

    Also like I said don't you find it odd that the two children have each exactly equal half of the Sage's power. More so do you think that he only used that power to create the Bijuus at his deathbed? What else could have used the power of creation for?

    Finally you cannot compare Naruto to the Sage. What the Sage did was start things his own way since he lived in another era.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  14. RaidenisDead True Entity

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    I approve of this theory.
     
  15. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    Now wait a minute, you can't equate regular children with Rikudou playing god and designing his kids to his liking. Artificial insemination and all the other things of modern medicine are one thing, but there is a line people shouldn't cross. Why would he even think of doing that? That is something someone like Orochimaru would do. Rikudou creating his sons in such a manner just doesn't sit right.

    Besides it's not as if a guy like him would have all that much trouble finding a woman.


    Children aren't really comparable to bijuu you know.

    Of course I find it odd. Which is why I proposed this possible explanation.

    Gee, I don't know, but as someone as wise as he was supposed to be he wouldn't just use that power on a whim. Creating the moon, dividing the bijuu and all those treasures he left behind is enough don't you think?

    Of course I can. Naruto is the final successor of Rikudou, he'll finally accomplish Rikudou's dream of ending the cycle of hatred and creating an era of peace and understanding.
     
  16. seastone A hidden

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    Creating life to have children of his own is "playing god".

    So starting a new religion, calling himself the savior who will bring peace and order and people worshiping him like a god is fine?

    Also it is easy to imagine he would do that. Either like many adults wanted children to raise to follow in footsteps and he created his children.

    Well it would be simple to find a woman to bear his child, that is true. though I have my doubts he could have a normal relationship considering his position in the world.

    Why not they have the same level of intelligence if not higher. Just because they aren't human doesn't change that.


    If he was so wise you would think he would have foreseen how his elder son would react to not being his successor.

    Also all those reasons is why it is more likely he would have created his children. He is not a normal person and isn't limited by the average person's restrictions.

    I am saying in choices that they make. They are different people with a similar goal.

    For example Hashirama wanted peace but he tried to kill his friend/rival which Naruto didn't do.
     
  17. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    Using a jutsu to create human life from scratch exactly according to his wishes is pretty much the definition of playing god.

    When did Rikudou ever call him a saviour and when did he ever want people to worship him like a god? How about you show me where it says that in the manga? As for the new religion he started it was just a way of life which had spreading peace as its goal and not something which was used deify himself.

    Raising children to follow your footsteps is a something completely different from designing your kids like that. Some creepy parents might actually want that, but Rikudou isn't supposed to be like those sickos.


    Guys like Hashirama, Sarutobi and Minato found women who were able to love them, so why wouldn't Rikudou? And there really wasn't anything which would have precluded Rikudou from having a normal relationship with a woman.

    I repeat myself children aren't the same as sentient chakra entities.

    I also said Rikudou was human, didn't I? And it's quite human for parents to overlook the failures in their children.

    No, they are not. I don't know where you came up with the idea that Rikudou was this amoral megalomaniac mad scientist who thought just because he could do something he had to do it.

    And I'm sure that Hashirama, if he saw Madara as his friend, tried everything he could think of to avoid having to fight him and that only when he couldn't find an alternative and he had the choice of either allowing Madara to kill many of his comerades and to destroy the peace he had worked so hard or to defeat Madara himself that he decided to do it.
     
  18. Helios 征服王

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    There are some very interesting points in this theory, with the main being the possibility that the Sage of the Six Paths was unable to control the Bijuu for a while, at first.This ,in my opinion, would explain well the creation of the Sacred Tablet during such a period of a Juubi's outbreak.

    I dont consider the explanation regarding the brothers satisfying.It would be much more believable if Rikudo,or rather the Juubi itself,during a period of loss of control did something (i usually think of something similar to what Itachi did to Naruto)to the elder brother and therefore he and not Rikudo was the source of corruption.Besides so far the author has greatly insisted on that speaking through the Kyuubi about a curse.
     
  19. princess of iwagakure Member

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    Good theory.

    I for one thought that probably the jyuubi's evil chakra was inherited to the older son in the form of an eye. Which then formed into a sharingan that carries hatred and lust for conflict.

    Probably by the time RS had his second son he was able to control the jyuubi and the DNA was reconstructed to adapt/stand the new jyuubi chakra. That DNA the second son inherited.
     
  20. seastone A hidden

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    Yet dictating how people should live by creating a religion and placing himself as its figurehead isn't playing god?

    When Jiraiya said he started a religion and told everyone that he is there bring order and peace aka their "savior". That is the equivalent telling people to follow and worship him.

    More so Madara said he was worshiped like a god.


    Unless the power of creation involves molding sculpturing their personality,way of thinking, feelings etc. That the Sage made his sons as his living puppets.

    However all I suggested that he created two male infants who have his powers except the elder son got the chakra and spiritual energy that had traces of the Juubi.

    Were they messianic figures who go around preaching religion? They were just leaders of a village.


    Indeed they are made from different matter but both of them having minds and souls.


    Indeed he is. Which is why also he may not see the follies in some of his actions.

    Again you assume that creating the moon, dividing the bijuu and all those treasures he left behind is enough.

    I am not suggesting that he is a "amoral megalomaniac mad scientist".

    Just that he did many things with his power which the the countless "myths and legends" about him the god of "creation" or "destruction".

    Creating his children were just one of them.

    Honestly given all of ridiculous things the Sage has been known for. This is pretty tame.

    Sasuke and Naruto's relationship have been strongly paralleled to Madara/Hashirama. That should be an good indication if anything.
     
  21. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    Even according to my theory the Jyuubi would be the source of the corruption and not Rikudou. And I don't think it would be any less of a curse if it happened before the birth of the elder son than if after. Still, your scenario does sound just as plausible to me as what I proposed.
     
  22. Hi Im God Active Member

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    Kishi will explain it after he retconns it.
     
  23. Gabe Murim Grand Master

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    great theory maybe you are right.
     
  24. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    Good thing then that Rikudou didn't do what you claim he did. According to Jiraiya Rikudou travelled the world and taught ninshuu as a tool for peace and that because of what he did people started looking up to him as their saviour. Nowhere is it mentioned that he installed himself as a figurehead of some sort, but it's obvious that those he taught and who followed him accepted him as their leader. It's still not even close to acting like a god.

    As I recall Madara said that Rikudou was reverred and that when he became the Jyuubi jinchuuriki his power exceeded that of a human.


    And there is really no reason you have brought up why Rikudou would separate his powers so arbitrarily. Why would Rikudou create his own sons like that? Why wouldn't he have kids the regular way? Your suggestion just doesn't make sense.


    You make Rikudou sound like some crazy cultleader. He wasn't. He was a man who taught people in a wartorn era a path of peace and taught them ninshuu so they could spread it. He didn't talk about any deities or any mystical afterlife.
    Again nothing which would prevent him from finding a woman who loved him.

    :facepalm No, one are children, people you cherish and raise so they can live a happy life and the others are demons created out of necessity so the Jyuubi couldn't plague the land any longer.


    Being blind to the faults of ones sons is one thing. Designing them like you suggest another.

    Yes, I do.

    I give up. I can't make you understand what's wrong with creating human life like that. So I figure if you had that kind of power you would create your own kids like that as well and you wouldn't mind if your parent had created you like that. If he or she had just decided your sex, your size, your features, your talents and aptitudes like that.
     
  25. T-Bag Blackbeard

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    agreed.

    10char
     
  26. Raging Bird 15 Strong, XVI

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    this is pretty good, but didn't RS create the 2 descendants while he was on his death bed?
     
  27. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    No, he didn't. He named his heir and split the Jyuubi on his deathbed.
     
  28. Canute87 Nuke Imminent

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    Don't know whether or not you can be born with such hatred.
    It always comes down to choices being made. Life affects individuals and it's only a natural thing if two humans can perceive two different things from the same situation.

    Who's to say that both brothers were always together. What if they went their separate ways to explore the world and in doing so they shared both similar and different experiences and in the end drew different conclusions to the state of the world and what philosophy is truly successful.

    Though it's definitely plausible that there was something inside the elder son that was triggered by hatred. Bijuu feeds off hatred. I guess that turned him into something dark.

    As for the conception to me it was just a hit and a miss in regards to the Juubi semen.
     
  29. Raging Bird 15 Strong, XVI

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    This theory might actually be legit, there must be a reason as to why Naruto's eyes turn red when he uses the Kyuubi's power.

    X

    The 10 tailed beast tainted the Rinnegan
     
  30. SonicTron Active Member

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    This was my understanding as well. That Rikudou used the power of Izanagi to literally create his heirs out of pure chakra, splitting his powers between the two as an act of balance to the world. I have never been under any impression that his sons were natural-born, had a mother, etc. There is the possibility that he did in fact have two sons, and that he split his powers up and infused them into those sons, but I would stick to the idea of Izanagi as it pertains to legend.
     
  31. Raging Bird 15 Strong, XVI

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    Izanagi is not Creation of All Things (万物創造, Banbutsu Sōzō) which the RS used to create the tailed beasts.
     
  32. LS20 Sir Paper Chaser

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    Everything about him is being portrayed as a God, especially after it was said he had the ability to create something from nothing...that in itself incredibly "godly".

    Why not? He had the power to create WHATEVER he wanted, you suggesting he's beneath doing that doesn't make any sense either when you know nothing of his personality and who he was outside of a legend. He could have very well been capable of wanting to do that just as much as he may have been against it. The guy was only limited by his imagination..what reason do you have he wouldn't? Madara said it was a "practical use" of his. He then said the Bijuus were "one such creation" implying he created other things. Infact, look at that chapter (510 pg. 11) it's almost implying that he created his children, especially with what Madara says and him holding the yin and yang chakra in his hands. Would I like this development? No. Doesn't mean it isn't very possible.

    Let me ask you this, the 2nd Hokage created Edo Tensei, hands down one of the vile and disgraceful jutsu's in the entire manga. Do you consider him crazy? Evil? The 2nd Hokage is respected just as much as the other Hokage's, despite creating this highly forbidden jutsu that violates the dead. How do we know Rikodu wasn't just like that? Doing questionable things, yet feeling they were for a greater cause. Actually he has already done questionable things. Explain to me why such a good savior would have weapons that play word games with people and seal them? How would that effect a bijuu?That seems a bit suspicious for someone like him, it doesn't fit with what we are told.

    Again you don't know anything about this man's personality beyond myths...what evidence do you have to suggest he wouldn't do that? Explain to me why he would be against it? This guy may not even be as good as you think he is. Sure every time they speak of him its in a good light, but everytime he's shown his image come across darker, you never see his face and the guy has freaking horns...he doesn't give me a warm tingling feeling when I see him. We cannot be sure exactly WHO he was until all is made clear about him. This guy had the power to make his imagination reality, there's no telling what he may have been tempted to do or has done.

    Personally I'm very suspicious of this guy, all these good things are being said about him, but there's something up with him IMO. And like I said every image of him gives of this foreboding, dark, mysterious feel. I've never seen that done with one of the "good guys".
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  33. SonicTron Active Member

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    Izanagi in legend is the creator of [not all] things. I was referring to the power of Izanagi, not the power Izanagi. That is why I made reference to the legend in my post.
     
  34. DoflaMihawk Blind Bandit

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    Possible theory mate.
     
  35. BXisAWOL S-Rank Fodder Nin

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    I like this idea.

    +rep
     
  36. TheOneManiac Member

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    Well, I think that this is actually a good theory. Kishi's probably never going to elaborate on this because it seems like the manga is coming to a close, but I read through this quickly, and I don't see anything that conflicts with canon fact.

    I'd just like to add that this makes a lot of sense. Since the Bijuu are like vessels of hatred and chakra, it makes sense that the Juubi had the most chakra and the most hatred inside of it. If the elder son did indeed have chakra (and thus hatred) inherited from the Juubi (thus the curse of revenge and being power-hungry), it would make sense that the elder son and his descendants would have extremely evil chakra.

    It makes sense that the Kyuubi commented on Sasuke's evil chakra, because it might carry the same amount of hatred as the Juubi's.
     
  37. Shikamaru Nara Laziest guy alive!

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    Unnecessary you say?And why would it be necessary to find a woman?If he just wanted successor why would't he just create one?

    But i undertsand your point that there is the possibility that he fell in love with a woman and never thought of the way to create his children but since he was on a journey around the world its possible aswell that he had two wifes.But even if he had two wifes its still unlikely that those sons are so different although they have the same father.

    And you're right i was mistaken, Rikudou Sennin tried to achive peace, but never did.That just supports the point that he didn't knew the right way to accomplish peace hence he may created two human beings with different powers and attributes to find out whats the key to peace.

    But nontheless your theory is good and quite possible.But there could be many reasons for the existence of those completely different brothers.But your theory is one of the best i heard so far.
     
  38. bearzerger Major Cliff Allister McLane

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    And it would explain how the Uchiha can carry a more sinister and powerful chakra than a bijuu in the first place.

    I doubt most heterosexual men consider finding a woman who loves them a chore like you portray it. :laugh
     
  39. Artful Lurker &#32

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    Well then it's obviously their upbringings such as the older evil son being spoiled because he was the first born or that the younger son was had an older brother to play with while the older was isolated and became cold.
     
  40. Barioth Active Member

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    Because they have two different mom.
     

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