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Why I believe Tobi = Obito has Some Merit

Discussion in 'Konoha Library' started by Turrin, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Turrin 玄武

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    Intro

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    As most of you probably know I made a serious theory I while back that Tobi is in-fact the Juubi & than I made a not nearly as serious theory about Tobi perhaps being Uchiha Setsuna. Now I'd like to make one more serious guess at Tobi's identity being Uchiha Obito. This is a long standing theory so I'm not going to approach discussing this in the common way this theory is discussed, I.E. talking about the things listed in the above picture or how their name's are anagrams since I believe there are about a hundred theories where this information can already be found [Plus the provided above picture] & the potential counter points to it have already been addressed probably hundreds of times at this point. What I want to focus on instead is why Tobi turning out to be Obito may make sense from a story structure perspective.

    The Puppet Master
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    One of the biggest elements of the story thus far is that Tobi acts as the main puppet master. He controlled Nagato who in turn controlled the Akatsuki organization, which is pretty much the source of the Naruto world's problems throughout much of the plot. Later when Nagato was "defeated" he took over the role as active leader, but also seems to be controlling Sasuke to eventually take Nagato's. On top of this Tobi was the one controlling the Demon Fox the night Naruto's parents died.

    While there are hints that perhaps Uchiha Madara may be the ultimate puppet master even behind Tobi, Kabuto has shed some doubt on this when he tells Madara that Tobi's goals might not completely coincide with his own. Therefore other than the fact that Tobi & Madara worked together at one point & time it's unclear if they are partners or if one is using thee other. However until more information is revealed Tobi can be seen as the main puppet master & it's unlikely this will change before Tobi's identity is revealed, considering that the reveal of his Identity is hinted to be coming at the end of the current Naruto + B v.s. Tobi battle:

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    The Dramatic Reveal

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    Ever since Tobi's introduction Kishi has been baiting fans when it comes to his identity. At first Tobi was portrayed the comic relief of Akatsuki, used by Kishi merely to bring some light into the gloomy criminal syndicate that was Akatsuki, but than it was later revealed that Tobi's persona as Deidara's silly partner was merely him feigning stupidity and he was in-fact the mastermind pulling the Akatsuki Leader's strings. After that Kishi revealed him to be Uchiha Madara the embittered rival of the First Hokage & for a while there, there was some question about his identity being that of the Fourth Mizukage, until it was revealed that Tobi or Madara was simply controlling the real Fourth Mizukage with Genjutsu. Finally we are now told Tobi is not Madara & he claims to be no one, though readers are quickly reminded by Naruto that Tobi has to be someone:

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    So its clear that Kishi wants his readers to keep speculating on the identity of Tobi, he is not content with the option that Tobi is simply a no body in the story. After all Kishi has messed with readers when it comes to revealing Tobi's identity time & time again, there has been so many times where Tobi is about to take of his mask or his mask is about to break, but in the end something prevents this from happening, leading to an anticlimax. Even in recent chapters there blatant examples of this when Naruto headbutts Tobi & than the mask turn out to be adamantium [I guess???] or even more frustrating example of this can be seen in this scene:

    X

    Kishi would not toy with Tobi's identity & the Fans to this extent unless he was building up to a major climax, when Tobi's identity is actually revealed, & the only way to avoid Tobi's reveal being an anticlimax is to have Tobi be a character that is shocking & unexpected to readers, but at the same time is a known & fairly well developed character.

    At this point I'm sure you guys are saying, "Ah but Turrin, what about Pain turning out to be the new character Nagato". This statement is true, but at the same time it's false. Nagato was a relatively new character introduced in the series, but by the time Kishi revealed Pain's true identity to be Nagato, Kishi had already spent several chapters establishing Nagato & giving him a voice and personality as a character via Jiriaya's flashbacks. On top of that while Pain's identity was set up as a major mystery for the character's within the manga, Kishi didn't nearly mindfuck with fans to the extent he has with Tobi. Pain's identity ever since the Nagato flashback & Jiriaya fight was heavily foreshadowed to be Nagato, there were some alternate theories on the part of the fan's, but the most compelling case to be made was overwhelmingly for Nagato to be Pain. This is not the case for Tobi, because Kishi wants fans to be more involved with the mystery of Tobi's identity than in the case of Pain.

    "Narrowed It Down To The Guy I Recognize"
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    Due to Tobi being portrayed as the main puppet master and the author spending so much time building up Tobi's unmasking it's more likely that Tobi is a character that fan's will recognize. I'd also like to clarify that i'm not just talking about appearance wise, but recognize in the sense that his character has already been impart established to fan's. Now taking this into consideration there are not many characters that fit this bill. Uchiha Kagami, Elder or Younger Son's of the Sage, Uchiha Setsuna, etc... can automatically be ruled as unlikely. However it doesn't stop there; Uchiha Izuna & Fugeku can also be ruled as unlikely, since while we know a bit about them & their back story their characterization has not been well established within the manga cannon, I.E. we don't see any several chapter flashbacks dealing with their motivation as characters or personality, like in the case of Nagato. In-fact the same thing could be said about Tobi being Juubi, but not entirely & I'll get to why later.

    Tobi being revealed as any of these characters would ultimately end in an anti-climax because none of the fans really know or care about these characters. Now I suspect people will be saying at this point two things:

    1. "I Care about [Insert 1 of the characters here], because I'm interested in there character, techniques, back story, etc..."

    2. "These Characters' personality & motivation can be established after the dramatic reveal of them being Tobi"

    The problem with the first counter argument is that, being interested in a unknown character is not the same thing as caring about that character. I'm interested in that 45 year old Genin back from the Chuunin Exams, but I really don't care about what happens to his character, because there is no reason to care since his character hasn't been established. The problem with the second counter argument is that character's motivations can be exposed after there identity is revealed, but the character himself/herself is never exposed after the reveal. Again I'll use the Nagato example, Nagato's character was established before the reveal, while his motivation was established after the reveal. The same will likely hold true for Tobi.

    The only character that Tobi could be who hasn't quite been established is the Juubi & this is because the Nine Bijuu are all part of the Juubi, so potentially the characterizations of the other Nine Bijuu such as Shukaku, Kyuubi, & Hachibi could all work as Juubi's own characterization.

    Now with the suspects narrowed down, who fits the bill of a character fan's would recognize; pretty much the only characters that apply are Obito whose characterization was established in Gaiden, DB II, & partly through Kakashi, Zetsu whose character has been established throughout Part II of the manga, & Juubi whose characterization could be partly established due to the other Bijuu.

    However out all three of these candidates it seems like Obito is the most natural fit. He has better characterization than the Juubi, yet is not over exposed to the extent that Zetsu has been. To use Nagato as an example again Obito fits perfectly into the same niche as him. Obito had a flashback establishing his character, but even after the dramatic reveal his past would still be interesting to fan's, since like Nagato one would wounder how Obito came to be Tobi. Basically what I'm trying to stress here is in terms of structuring the story to meet the end goal which in this case is a climatic reveal, Obito probably makes the most sense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  2. Turrin 玄武

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    Kishimoto's Ideal Villain

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    With talking about how Obito makes perhaps the most sense for the dramatic reveal aspect out of the way i'm going to talk about how Obito potentially makes the most sense thematically as well. Too be perfectly honest Kishimoto's ideal villain has become so easy to spot that you just have chuckle a little bit at Kishimoto's utter obsession with this villain archetype. This being the archetype where we have a team which parallels or in-fact is Team 7 & 1 of the characters in that team ends up going down the wrong path due to some tragedy and the guy becomes one of the main villains & is usually responsible for the death of his master. Who was the first big villain of the Naruto series: Orochimaru, Who was the next big Villain & is again to some degree: Sasuke, who was the next big villain after Part I Sasuke: Nagato. Who was the next big villain after Nagato: Danzo. We could even probably throw Madara into this category as well considering that Hashirama parallels Naruto, Madara's Parallels Sasuke, & I wouldn't be surprised if Mito paralleled Sakura.

    So considering how consistent with archetype kishi is, it seems likely that Tobi was once a member of a Team that Paralleled Team 7 & probably caused his master's death. The character who best fits this description is Obito, since he's from a team that parallels Team 7 & if he's Tobi he would be directly responsible for his master's [Minato Namikaze's] death. Other than Obito's Team there really isn't any other Team left which parallel's Team 7, which hasn't produced a villain of some kind already, so i'm not seeing many options here for Kishi other than to make Obito Tobi, if he wishes to continue his pattern, which Kishi obviously believes is fairly important to the story since he was willing to make every single major villain have the same generic back story in this regard, in-order to maintain the pattern thus far.

    "Alike and Antithetical Adversaries"

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    "Humans are naturally social beings, and we can tell a lot about a person by knowing what groups they're a part of. What's more, we can tell a lot about a conflict depending on who makes up the given groups. Authors can take advantage of this to design the overtones of a conflict by engineering the groups at war into being homogenous (all alike) and/or heterogenous (all different). This can have up to four combinations* , as detailed below."

    Considering Kishimoto's ideal villain as described above, it's not hard to imagine that Tobi will in a way be someone who aside from his Tobi persona acts as the antithesis to Naruto, the same way that Oro does to Jiriaya, for example. So far most of Naruto's enemies have been the Antithesis to him in the same sense that Sasuke is his antithesis, I.E. those who have some genetic inborn advantage that makes them a Genius, who starts out as an emo. What I find interesting about Obito is that if he is Tobi, he wouldn't be the a Sasuke type antithesis, rather he would be thee ultimate antithesis to Naruto considering that Obito was exactly like Naruto back in the day, yet something change him to the exact opposite - Tobi.

    In terms of structuring the story where Tobi is the Final Villain whose pulling all the strings or if someone greater than him like Madara is pulling the strings this development suits the story really well. If Obito is the final villain than Naruto in the final battle is forced to defeat his exact opposite & ultimate state he would be reduced to if he were to fail. If Obito is merely the main puppet of the ultimate mastermind, it shows that whoever the final villain is, is dangerous enough where he was able to control & corrupt someone who had the same ideals and characterization as Naruto, which would make the final villain not only a physical threat, but a mental one as well.

    So Many Questions, So little Answers
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    Kakashi Gaiden introduced use to many new characters & answered one of the more mysterious parts of the Naruto story: How did Kakashi get his Sharingan eye? However fortunately or unfortunately [depends on how you look at it], it did not answer all of our questions on Kakashi's past. Two of the biggest questions that Gaiden did not answer are:

    1. What happened to Rin?
    2. How did Kakashi transform his transplant Sharingan into Mangekyo?

    Both these questions are clearly very important to understanding Kakashi's character, yet even hundreds of chapters after these questions were raised Kishi has still avoided answering them, which is interesting to me, because Kishi could have easily told Fans how Rin died in DB II & could have easily had Kakashi explain how he gained Mangekyo when he first used it in the first arc of Part II. The fact that all these events tied to Obito remain unanswered means Obito's reemergence would be the perfect plot device to brings exposition to these questions. Thus for a story structure perspective it makes sense that Kakashi would not mention how Rin died or how he got Mangekyo yet, if these things were being saved due to their connect to Obito, until the dramatic reveal of Tobi = Obito.


    I Have Never Trusted Studio Pierrot

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    I have talked about how Obito makes sense from a story perspective for the manga, but I want to discuss how Obito makes sense from a production standpoint of the Naruto Anime. Kakashi Gaiden was a story that was told between Part I & Part II in the manga, but in the anime this story does not get told until mid Season 6 of Naruto Shippuden. Why would the Studio Pierrot wait so long to release this story line of the manga? Perhaps it was because they were waiting for a place where they needed filler to let the Cannon material get ahead of them again, but that can't be it because there was a massive filler arc (longest one in the series, I believe) before the release of Gaiden. On top of that the release of Gaiden seems totally random in placement, well at least until you do your research. Kakashi Gaiden was released a couple months after the chapter where Kakashi talking to the White Fang was featured in the manga.

    It's clear that Studio Pierrot realized they couldn't keep putting off Kakashi Gaiden, because fan's would need to know the White Fan's back story to understand Kakashi's character development during the Pain arc. But why were they holding off Kakashi Gaiden in the first place? Could it be that they ether were told by Kishi or believed Obito was Tobi & they wanted to avoid casting the wrong voice actor? I wouldn't blame anyone who reads this & thinks i'm reaching here a bit & I agree to a certain extent this a is a big reach, but one has to agree that the timing of Gaiden is suspicious and how they held off releasing it until they realized they had to, was also suspicious.

    "That's not true that's impossible!!!"

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    Most of the people who are against the idea of Tobi being Obito hold the same counter argument's & those are:

    1. Obito is dead
    2. Obito has no motivation

    These would be two good points in another work of fiction but unfortunately they fall short in Kishi's manga, especially in the case of Tobi. We have seen Tobi hanging out with guys who possess the Ranningan which contains power over life & Death and we have seen Tobi hanging out with Zetsu who is a creation made from Senju Hashirama's DNA and contains his enhanced life force powers. He also hung out with tons of monsters within Akatsuki that had mastered Immortality or regenerative type abilities. There are an infinite number of ways in which Obito's life could have been saved or he could have been brought back from the dead if he was indeed Tobi.

    I'm sure that people will ask why someone decided to bring random Uchiha back to life, to which I ask why did Madara or Tobi give Rannigan to a random Uzamaki? The author in these cases probably just wants fans to assume that guys like Nagato or Obito have hidden potential that can be seen by others. For example like how Orochimaru saw the potential in Sasuke's eyes to surpass Itachi's during the Chuunin Exams.

    Also Obito has more than a decent motive. Obito was in love with Rin & gave his life & birth right [Sharingan] to save her & ensure she was protected. We know despite this Rin died later in life. If you combine the fact that Obito nearly died because of war & Obito lost his love of his life due to war, I could see his ideology becoming twisted to believe the world is hopeless & should just be under his complete control, I.E. Darth Vader Syndrome.

    Plus Kishi literally just did the same exact thing with Nagato. Nagato was shown in flashbacks to pretty much be a great guy as Obito was, but than there was some tragedy & he went insane. So logically Kishi can easily do the same with Tobi - Obito & in-fact there is a precedence for it.

    Conclusion

    Tobi being Obito has many pluses from a story structure standpoint: Obito is Kishimoto's ideal villain, Tobi being revealed to be Obito would be Climatic, his role as the ultimate antithesis to Naruto would add greater depth to the manga whether he's FV or FV's main puppet, & there may even be some hint in the Anime team's production of Shippuden that they at least consider Obito a likely option.

    Ether way this was a long one, but I thought I needed to spend this amount of time to detail the reasoning appropriately since people seem to ether hate or love the idea of Tobi being Obito. Anyway Thanks for Reading, if you made it this far, and tell me your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  3. vagnard Active Member

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    At this point I hope there is a black hole behind that mask.
     
  4. The Determinator the sauce

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    The theory is great but to expected.
     
  5. Samehada The Tailess Bijuu

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    X

    I appreciate the time you put in this. What about Obito's age gap though? If Tobi fought Minato, it is impossible for Obito to be the attacker, especially when it was only a few years later.
     
  6. Sunamonster Banned

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    Is there a bandwagon Turrin won't jump on? First Tobi was Danzou, then Tobi was juubi, now Tobi is Obito? LOL

    I don't have have to bring up the many reasons why Tobi is not Obito, I will leave that to others
     
  7. Turrin 玄武

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    How so? We saw Kakashi in that flashback and he clearly went through a major growth spurt, he's not as tall as Tobi, but people grow at different rates. For example Itachi even when he's very young pretty much looks the same as when he is 21 - 23 in the story. And a real life example one of my best friends went from 5.0 ~ 5.3 to 6.0 ~ 6.1 by the age of 12 ~ 13. Other than that there hasn't been much to gauge Tobi's age on since we have really only seen his eyes and his hands, which could pretty much apply to any age.
     
  8. ammarz Member

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    I would question the time line aspect. Firstly, Nagato already had rinnegan during the thied ninja war. At that time, Obito would have been a little child; so how could he have a hand in giving Nagato the rinnegan? Secondly, Tobi's attack on Konoha seems only a few years after Kakashi Gaiden, would Obito have grown this much, both physically and in abilities? Thirdly, it seemed like Madara knew who Tobi was, and I don't think Obito would have been alive when Madara died as Madara's edo looks quite young.
     
  9. seastone A hidden

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    It just seems unconvincing to have someone who is mainly important to Kakashi to not only survived his fatal injuries(without coming back to Konoha), become evil, take over the world and be the main villain.

    Of course there are still a large amount of writing gymnastics needed for Kishi to fill out everything we know that Tobi has done from giving Nagato the Rinnegan, his relation with Madara etc.

    It just seems odd all for the sake of perhaps a twist.

    If you going to that far. Tobi might as well be future Sasuke who became disillusioned with the world.
     
  10. Turrin 玄武

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    1. If Tobi is obito one would assume it's the real Madara that gave Nagato the Rannigan

    2. Itachi pretty much grew that much physically and in terms of abilities at a young age

    3. Madara looks young due to Kabuto altering Madara's body so that it would be back to the way it was in it's prime

    Like I said in the OP Kishi already did the same thing with Nagato - Pain so I don't see why people think it's a stretch that he did the same thing with Obito - Tobi. & Future Sasuke come on now.
     
  11. ammarz Member

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    Well these could be plausible explanations if the author wanted them to be...

    Edit: But didn't Tobi tell Konan that he spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki and gave Nagato the Rinnegan. One can of course claim that he was lying (pretending to be Madara). But he was about to kill Konan, so I don't see a reason for him to lie and it also looked to me that he was telling the truth. But we can only know for sure only when Kishi finally reveals the truth.
     
  12. tanman Hardship of Adventure

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    Rin is a big mystery.
    Obito is meh...at this point. With Kakashi on the opposite side of the battlefield and seemingly unconnected to the Tobi story line.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  13. Samehada The Tailess Bijuu

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    Touche mate, touche.... :kthumb

    Does this mean you also support that Zetsu found Obito? We see that Tobi removes his hand when fighting Minato meaning he had regen powers from an early time. What would happen that would give Obito that ability? He must have had found Zetsu before the Kyuubi attack but that also must mean he had Hashirama's DNA before the attack too :hmm
     
  14. silenceofthelambs Active Member

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    Turrin, answer these questions:

    1. How and why did the Kyuubi recognize Obito on the night it attacked Konoha?
    2. Where did Obito acquire Senju cells from?
    3. How does he know so much about the Jubi, Rikudou Sennin, and Madara's personal life, considering his age makes it impossible for him to have even met the real Madara?
    4. How does he know about the Mangekyou Sharingan, much less the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan?
    5. How does he know about the Rinnegan?
    6. When and where did he meet Nagato, and how could he have been the one pulling the strings in Akatsuki's shadow if the organization was founded when he wasn't even alive yet?
    7. Where do his intangibility and space-time ninjutsu originate from?
    8. Who was manipulating Yagura?
    9. How did Obito prevent Itachi from finding out who he really was?
    10. Why would Obito bother massacring the Uchiha?
    11. Why does he hate the Senju, whose Will of Fire he died for, and why was he so intent on destroying Konoha?
    12. Why would he concoct something like the Moon's Eye Plan?
    13. How did Minato not recognize Obito's voice during the Kyuubi's attack, considering it happened only a year after his supposed "death?"
     
  15. Crona Amonsexual

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    Seconded :notrust

    My main beef with the Obito theory is that it cheapens Obito's death. He died for a cause and now he's back to do....what exactly? His love for Rin and wanting the world to be peaceful? Are we forgetting the panels where Tobi jizzed at Karin getting piereced, does that sound like a man that dislikes wars? It would not be climatic, it just wouldn't make sense.

    And why would Madara (a power whore) bother with someone as weak as Obito? There is also a timeline dilemma that Madara died when Nagato was just a child. In order for someone to continue Madara's plan that person had to be an adult and Obito should have been very young when Madara died.
     
  16. Reddan Active Member

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    This is a thread I agree with. I agree with your other theory that Tobi could be the Jubi in human form, but I think Obito is the most likely theory.

    However, I don't think at first it was solely Obito. I feel there is a good chance that Madara was possessing and controlling Obito. However, Obito's personality started coming out more and more

    EDIT

    Madara seems like a cautious man and believe he left part of his soul in Obito. However, Obito at some point managed to regain control.

    He never got the chance to live the life he wanted and his eye of the moon plan is a chance to live the fantasy he wished. He was rebuilt with the parts of Zetsu/Hashirama made him a Rikoudo like Madara.

    This can further tie into the Uchiha story since he has a resemblance to Shishui.
     
  17. Turrin 玄武

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    Okay

    The kyuubi was most likely going off power & not appearance, because well how could he have recognized Tobi by appearance. Kyuubi probably assumed Tobi was Madara just like everyone else assumed this, or the Kyuubi met Tobi at some other point.

    Madara or Zetsu, since he clearly knows both of them

    Why does it make it impossible for him to have met the real Madara? But we have already been told between Itachi, himself, & Nagato he had all the tools to read the tablet at the secret shrine or Zetsu told him.

    Same as above. Though why you would even ask about the Mangekyo when Itachi was part of the organization he ran is kind of funny.

    Same as above or again laughable question due to Nagato being in Akatsuki

    1. When did Nagato meet Hidan, Kakuzu, etc...
    2. Because ether he was entrusted with it by Madara or Zetsu, or he took charge of it pretending to be Madara

    His Sharingan obviously. In-fact his Space-time Ninjutsu is a plus for him being obito if you consider the powers obito's other Sharingan.

    Tobi or Madara

    How did Tobi trick Itachi & just about everyone else that he was Madara? Because he is a clever SOB.

    Why would Madara bother massacring the Uchiha? & don't tell me it was just for grudge. Tobi's reason for massacring the Uchiha could be as simple as him wanting there Sharingan.

    I already explained Tobi's motivation in the OP no need to repeat myself.

    Did he concoct it or is he merely following Madara's blue print? But yeah we were already told this & it's because he has given up on the world.

    When is it stated to have only happened a year after? As for the voice, how did Kisame not recognize Tobi's voice?

    Where is this stated?
     
  18. Hinata Is Shikaku Nara Your Grandma's Hokage

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    yo answers dawg

    DANG NINJA'ED He's a fast typer. ^^
    Turrin, answer these questions:


    4. How does he know about the Mangekyou Sharingan, much less the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan? He was an Uchiha, right? I'm sure there was some sort of b.s. lore behind it somewhere.

    5. How does he know about the Rinnegan? same ^^

    6. When and where did he meet Nagato, and how could he have been the one pulling the strings in Akatsuki's shadow if the organization was founded when he wasn't even alive yet? You assume he wasn't alive.

    7. Where do his intangibility and space-time ninjutsu originate from? His eye of course.
    8. Who was manipulating Yagura? The other dude, pain buddy Madara.

    9. How did Obito prevent Itachi from finding out who he really was?
    This would be answered with the REAL TRUTH behind the Uchiha massacre.

    10. Why would Obito bother massacring the Uchiha? Because his ideals about the greater good. If you look at Obito's character, he's basically a jacked up Naruto. Naruto wants to end terror in the ninja world, Madara wants to end pain, but by a different method. I attribute this to his crushed right side. He saw how bad the Ninja world really is.

    11. Why does he hate the Senju, whose Will of Fire he died for, and why was he so intent on destroying Konoha? He hates the shinobi world, not specifically the Senju.

    12. Why would he concoct something like the Moon's Eye Plan? Again, to reform the ninja world..

    13. How did Minato not recognize Obito's voice during the Kyuubi's attack, considering it happened only a year after his supposed "death?" That's a really silly question, seeing as shinobi can transform into person they want to with their henge.



    Although, I still stick with my idea about Danzou being Madara.
     
  19. TobiSamoht Member

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    I'm not Turrin but

    1. Kushina was the Kyubi jinchuuriki. Obito must have met Kushina, being Minato's student. This actually serves as more evidence for Tobi = Obito

    2. Madara gave him Hashirama's cells. He's the one that most likely saved him. You might as well ask where did Tobi get Hashiramas cells.

    3. Madara taught him most likely. Who says Madara died before Kakashi Gaiden? Madara probably met Obito after he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. I mean, if he knew Tobi at that time, why not just give him the Rinnegan? Also we see from Nagato that the Rinnegan can reverse aging when absorbing chakra.

    4. Madara taught him

    5. The ramen guy.... jk Madara

    6. It was originally Madara who was pulling the strings

    7. We see that Kakashi also has an incredibly similar space time jutsu, so that's a silly question

    8. Obito was manipulating Yagura

    9. Tobi is a master of disguise, he tricked the whole world into thinking he was Madara

    10. Idk, Kishi could explain, all i can give is a made up fanfic

    11. Same as 10. Maybe it had to do with Rin dying though

    12. To bring peace

    13. Good point... Most likely Minato didn't even think of the possibility that it could be Obito, or Obito changed his voice, idk.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  20. SubtleObscurantist Crazy Fool

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    'Darth Vader Syndrome' as an explanation for a complete character reversal would be a headbanger for me, personally. I don't think these arguments, which while fairly self explanatory are expounded upon at great and somewhat tedious length (which strikes me as a form of self persuasion), are particularly compelling.
     
  21. alienworkshopguy Member

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    kakashi was 26 at start of series, Naruto was 12 so subtract Naruto's age, 13-14 when kyuubi attacked and also 13 when he was promoted to jounin, at most a year from when obito died to kyuubi attack.

    BUT that said, I have not completely ruled out obito, ONLY if while in Tobi's S/T Dimension Time can be stopped/slowed down.This would accurately account for the time needed by Obito to master his abilities and grow in the year time from his "death" to fighting Minato. OTHERWISE the tobi-obito theory is Impossible!
     
  22. Turrin 玄武

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    Kakashi was 26 at the very beginning of the series, but he was closer to 27 since he is recored as 27 in the second DB & he is 30 in DB III. Also where is it said that Kakashi was 13 when he became a Jonin? Are you basing that estimate on Obito being 13? If so I have to disagree with that idea. Obito & Kakashi were on the same team, but both graduated the academy at different ages & were put on the same team. Obito graduated at the age of 9, while Kakashi graduated at the age of 5, this would suggest that Kakashi was 8 ~ 10 when he became a Jonin, rather than 13.

    To simplify this further. Kakashi at 5 was put on the same Team as 9 Year Old Obito, that's an age gap of some where around 4 years. In Gaiden when Kakashi first becomes a Jonin Obito is 13, so Kakashi should at the oldest be 10.

    Now if Kakashi is essentially 27 ~ 26 in Part I - 12, the shortest amount of time between Gaiden & Minato's death would be 4 years, with the longest amount of time being 7 Years. What this means is Obito at his youngest would be 17 during the Demon Fox attack & at his oldest he'd be 20. Both those ages would be more than acceptable for Tobi.
     
  23. αce Puahah.

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    At this point, I don't even know.
    All I know for sure is that it's not Obit's soul. At best his body
     
  24. Turrin 玄武

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    Why not Obito's soul? I don't get this idea that Obito was good therefore he couldn't have gone bad when we have a character like Nagato.
     
  25. Bloo Shadow Shinobi

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    I think the fact that it has to be unexpected makes it not Obito. That's the problem, Tobi, Obito, the names are too similar, and the hair style is too similar. Along with the right eye and Obito giving his left eye. Obito was introduced as a Red Herring to make us focus on him, he's a too obvious of a candidate. I think it's Shisui, which is how Tobi was able to control the Fourth Mizukage.
     
  26. First Tsurugi M O T I V A T E D

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    For once we're in agreement about who Tobi might be. :villa

    Good thread, brings up a lot of solid points.

    I especially liked the bit about the unexplained mysteries of Rin and Kakashi's Ms.

    That's something that tends to be overlooked.
     
  27. αce Puahah.

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    Because Tobi has an unreasonable obsession with Hashirama and the hints at emotional displays when he talked about Hashirama to Naruto and Tobi to Naruto completely negates any chance that he would otherwise have of being Obito.
    And when he talks about the Rinnegan beind his in the first place and his ability to summon the kyuubi, it seems unlikely he could amass such ability in such a short time frame.

    The Rinnegan comment and the emotional displays are enough to convince me he isn't Obito.
     
  28. Yozora Member

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    Orochimaru experiment combining on Uchiha Izuna, Uchiha Shisui and Uchiha Obito dead body = Tobi.

    Just like what he did to Yamato.

    :zaru
     
  29. Summers look at my sig

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    I have lost track of how many people Tobi could be. I think the longer this goes on the more people will join the Obiti= tobi train just cause. Hell I will say right here, Tobi= everybody and anybody.
     
  30. MYJC Cunning Linguist

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    I don't think so for a couple reasons.

    1. I'm gonna need more of a motive than "angst because war sucks and Rin died"

    2. If he really was Obito, you'd think Tobi would've had SOME kind of reaction when he ran into Kakashi. But nope. He ran into him twice and didn't react at all. Plus, considering how he likes to keep good eyes and all, I'd think he'd have tried to take his eye back.

    3. If he's just Obito, why all the secrecy about his identity? I could MAYBE understand wearing the mask because he's scarred or when he was still pretending to be Madara, but it seems pretty pointless for him to continue to be secretive about his identity if he's just some random Uchiha that was supposedly killed in a war.


    Even though some people would find it anticlimactic, I'm still of the opinion that Tobi is more than likely some clone/creation of Madara's.
     
  31. Grimmjowsensei True Hokage

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    tl;dr

    No just no.

    Tobi called Kakashi and CO "children."

    He can't be obito. Even Kagami is more likely given the age difference.
     
  32. Olivia Active Member

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    Actually judging that the attack happened 16/12 years prior to the start of the series (depending on which part of the series your looking at) Kakashi should actually be 14 when Tobi set free the Kyubi, as he is 30 in current time Shippuden. So basically Tobi/Obito would also be 14 in this time period as well.

    Great way how you organized this entire theory to make much more sense, but this age thing is bothering me.

    Oh and the anime released Kakashi Gaiden then because that's when the third Shippuden Movie released in theaters, which was mainly Kakashi and also featured his backstory.
     
  33. Talis Tobito believer

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    Good thread, u should also add the panel when Kakashi first meets Tobi because that panel really is suspected.
    U also should add the panel when Kakashi fought against Sasuke, when Tobi came in he said that technique like the Kamui wont work in him, we clearly saw Kakashis Kamui failing.

    And also this panel; [sp=Over-sized Image]X[/sp]

    Tobis left face side is full of scars from that rock (some thinks its wrinkles) but his right face side is clean. You can see this also in the manga. (credit goes to FatBack)
    Notice on this panel how Tobi is standing in front of a wall which is full of huge boulders lol. :zaru Dat Kishi. :datass
     
  34. Tengu Kiuuby-chan

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    But against Minato, didn't Tobi lose his left hand too? ^^

    Edit: also Jiraiya meet Nagato in the second war i believe, and he already had the rinnegan then, while Obito died in the 3rd war, he shouldn't know Madara, and he couldn't have told Yahiko to form the Akatsuki.
    But Naruto time-line is pretty fucked, so he could be, but i just don't think he is.
     
  35. Turrin 玄武

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    Yes Kakashi should be, but Kakashi is younger than Obito. Kakashi graduated the academy at 5 & Obito graduated at 9 & they were placed on the same team. That suggests an age gap of 4 years. So if Kakashi is 14, than Obito would be 18.
     
  36. Reddan Active Member

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    No Obito and Kakashi are the same age as said by the databook. Kakashi probably was trained privately by his father until the rest of his age group graduated.
     
  37. Turrin 玄武

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    Where is this stated in the DB?
     
  38. Grimmjowsensei True Hokage

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    dude they are obviously the same age.
     
  39. PikaCheeka wants to believe

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    Oh God, the hair. The hair!!

    It's all true. It's a rule that no two manga characters can have the same haircut!

    The theory is rubbish. You can sugar-coat it all you want but when it comes down to it, the only way to explain it is 100% fanfic. The radical change in character including personality and speech patterns, the extreme growth in abilities, the fanatical obsession with the past... Fanfic.

    Kakashi's Gaiden was not and never will be important to the story. It was a little bit of off-topic fanservice that Kishi threw in there because Kakashi was extremely popular. If Obito was going to be important later, the gaiden would have been acknowledged in and Kakashi would have been a far more central figure in Part 2 than he has been. As it is, he's become less important than some of the rookies. Relevance-wise, Tobi is more likely to be Shikamaru's mother than Kakashi's bff.

    The age is irrelevant.

    What is relevant is that approximately one year passed between the time that Obito died and the time when Tobi attacked Konoha.

    You mean to tell me that some pathetic ninja who had JUST awakened his sharingan suddenly advanced that much in power?

    And ranted about waiting so long for the moment to attack Konoha? So long ≠ one year.

    Nagato actually had a past that explained his behavior. Obito doesn't. Unless he survived the boulder attack and went on to have many angst-ridden adventures, it makes no sense. What we do know of him in no way implies that he could go on to become someone like Tobi. He died disappointed that he couldn't live with Kakashi and Rin, but overall he was grateful that he was able to save their lives. That isn't a 'death' that suits THE villain of the series.


    PS - Ace, MYJC and Tengu brought up some good points that should be addressed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  40. Turrin 玄武

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    Based on what? Like I said Obito Graduated at Age 9 & Kakashi graduated at age 5. That would suggest 4 year age difference between the two.

    Because Kishi's never done this before - oh wait - Nagato.

    Because Kishi's never done this before - oh wait - Nagato.

    Because Kishi's never done this before - oh wait - Nagato.

    Basically Kishi did the exact same thing with Nagato, yet your telling me it's impossible, come on bro, you ether didn't read the OP or even you know this doesn't make sense.

    Kakashi is one of the main characters, that often gets the spotlight, so I have absolutely no clue what your talking about.

    Based on what?

    Honestly yes I do think it's possible for Obito via the Guidance of Madara &/or Zetsu, plus being given Senju DNA to gain the abilities he had in a year. Especially since we do not know how time works in Tobi's Box Dimension. However again I yet to see proof that only year passed between Gaiden & Kyuubi attack. Like I have said above 4 years could have passed since Gaiden. And if it's 4 Years I certainty believe some could grow that much because all I have to do is look at Naruto, Sasuke, or Gaara to confirm that.

    Due you not realize Tobi pretends to be other people to fuck with his enemies minds.

    Beyond this I honestly can't believe people are trying to use Kishimoto's Time-line to try & prove anything. This is the same dude that brought us the completely nonsensical Uchiha Itachi time-line, so I don't believe Kishi thinks these time-lines out much, if at all.
     
  41. Dragonus Nesha Le Rouquin Super Moderator

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    In his Databook entry, Obito is listed as X.
    As for Kakashi, I'm still trying to find an instance specifying his age, however, I have figured out a range.
    His maximum age is 14 since the Kyubi attacked about 16 years ago and Kakashi is about 30 years old now.
    His minimum age is 10 since Sandaime Kazekage's disappearance, which coincided with Sasori's leaving Sunagakure 20 years ago, sparked the Third Shinobi World War.
     
  42. Grimmjowsensei True Hokage

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    The databook says obito was 13.
    Kakashi should be around that age as well, during the time of the gaiden.
     
  43. Naruto PORTUGAL CARALHO Super Moderator

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    I seriously can't believe people still find this feasible.

    Obito was an afterthought. He hasn't been referenced since the gaiden at all. He has neither the relevance or the development required for this theory to come to fruition.

    Let's not even get into why it wouldn't make any sense for this twist to happen in the first place. Tobi was the acting Mizukage behind the scenes when Obito was just a toddler. Tobi hasn't had any special interaction with Kakashi. Obito has no motive for impersonating Madara. Hell, I'd be hard pressed to believe Obito even knows about Madara.
     
  44. Qhorin Halfhand Strongest Man in All of China

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    Tobi being Obito has no merit whatsoever. There are so many obvious holes in that view that the question is why the fuck should or can anyone even jump into the view that Tobi is Obito.

    I give more credit to Marsala's theory/joke of Tobi being a timetravelling Sasuke. Ok I don't, I give it about the same credit.
     
  45. PikaCheeka wants to believe

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    I believe Shaidar fixed that for you.

    Read the part in my post where I address this. Because I'm pretty sure I have a whole paragraph on it:

    In my experience with this series, when people "die" even remotely content, they don't come back as massively butthurt villains like Tobi.

    Kakashi has has the spotlight for a total of about 5 chapters in Part 2. He fought Itachi with other people and only was central for a chapter. He fought Kakuzu with half a dozen other people and still had to be rescued. He died against Nagato and we got a few pages about his father. His rampage, which was supposed to be a big deal, was off-paneled.

    That ain't spotlight.

    Obito sucked as a shinobi when he died.

    Do you honestly believe that Obito mastered the MS in a few days, then spent 17 years in the box dimension with Madara and Zetsu and Orochimaru training and poking and prodding him into being some genius?

    As for the one-year thing. Simple math. Kakashi was 26-27 in Part 1. Naruto was 12-13. Therefore we know that at the start of Part 1, Tobi's attack happened 12 years ago. That means Kakashi was 14. Kakashi Gaiden took place when he was 13. 14 - 13 = 1.

    Oh I realize it, but that doesn't seem to be one such instance. He may have said it to Kushina but it seemed to be more for himself than for her. That and it wasn't exactly an "I AM CLEARLY MADARA" statement, so why would he have bothered? She had no clue he was supposed to be Madara.

    Kishi's timeline may be inconsistent in places but we have absolutely no evidence that it is so in this instance. Trying to claim that a random, yet-to-be-contradicted incident is also an error in the timeline is just a blatant attempt to back up your theory when you don't have a legit way of doing so.
     
  46. Arles Celes The Psychologist

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    At this point the Tobi reveal indeed has to be quite shocking as seeing a random guy that we never heard about would be anticlimatic...to say the least. A Madara clone would also hardly deliver as what was the point of making so many characters question his true identity if he was merely a clone?

    Kagami was also a nobody with no ties to anyone so that also would suck IMO...

    There are only 3 options that would be shocking enough for such reveal:

    1. Juubi. The ultimate evil that seeks to free himself from the moon, become complete and rule the world as he orginally intended. That monster could have been sending his spirit/mind in order to control or influence certain individuals to shape the world as he wished it to be. Also the Juubi being the strongest evil being would be worthy of a final epic battle. In this case Tobi would either be Juubi's human reincarnation or a host possessed or manipulated by Juubi.

    2. Obito. Yeah, quite a controversial option but IMO one that has indeed much potential. His bond with Kakashi, with Minato and the parallels that he had with Naruto when he was younger would make him a perfect antithesis to Naruto. Even a better one than Nagato or Sasuke. The only problem is that the theme of "friend turned evil" is a bit repetitive at this point and would make him seem to much like Nagato and Sasuke wannabe. Though since his personality and goals are quite different then maybe it could be handled better. Nevertheless it would be really shocking reveal...and one that would put NF into chaos LOL. How could he become evil? Maybe the Juubi possessed/manipulated him into taking such a dark path. Maybe Rin's fate was so terrible that it caused him to snap like it happened with Sasuke. Maybe he was taken half dead by Oro and experimented on until he became insane.

    3. Rikudou. Being so pessimistic and lacking any hope for the world could be the result of Rikudou becoming dellusional with the world after being unable to establish any long lasting peace. The hatred between his sons and the curse of hatred that was created between them could also convince him that "there is no such thing as hope"...for he lost any hope he had. The conflict between his sons, the continuing wars, deception, betrayal...all of that could have make the once idealistic Rikudou into such a nihilist. It would also explain why he knows so much stuff about stuff that happened so long ago(I kinda doubt that the Uchiha tablets alone had ALL that knowledge). His reputation would definitely make him fit for the position of a FV as would his power(especially if he became "complete"). He would also be a perfect opponent for Naruto: A fallen Messiah that had given on hoe VS the messiah of the new generation who gives hope to the world. Hell...even Konan said that everyone that meets Naruto carries the flower called "hope". Coincidence?

    In any case Tobi has to be someone as that "nobody" answer that he gave was IMO made by Kishi to avoid making him reveal his true identity in such a manner that would be so anticlimatic
    Tobi: So I'm Madara

    Naruto: Liar, I know now that you are not Madara.

    Tobi:....

    Naruto: So who are you?

    Tobi: *And Tobi revels his identity*

    Sucj a reveal at the very beginning of the fight would be lame...
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  47. Turrin 玄武

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    For like the fifth time why are we assuming Kakashi is the same age as Obito, when he graduated from the Academy 4 years earlier than Obito.

    Obito was referenced in the Pain Arc. Obito has relevance to Kakashi & Naruto's Father, making him more relevant that Nagato was when he was revealed to be Pain.

    1. Who said that was Tobi & not Madara?
    2. We are never told when Yagura was being controlled to the best of my knowledge so where are you getting this time-line from?

    The rest can easily be explained by the author, even you must admit this.

    Nope, he just presented an assumption that Kakashi was the same age as obito in Gaiden.

    Nagato's past that explained his behavior was only revealed to us after Nagato was revealed to be Pain, the author would do the same thing if Tobi turned out to be Obito.

    Yes he "died" grateful that he could save Kakashi's & more importantly Rin's life. Now Imagine if he was "resurrected" & it turns out despite his sacrifice & entrusting Kakashi with his Sharingan that Rin still died.

    He was content because he believed he saved Rin, if he "came back" & Rin died, I doubt Obito would be content.

    Kakashi is part of Team 7 & acts as the Sensei to Naruto & Sasuke, the fact that your trying to argue he doesn't have relevance is laughable. Obito has relevance to both the MC's Rival (Due to the Uchiha Clan Connection), MC's Teacher (Kakashi's Teammate), MC's Father (Yondaime's Student), & Relevance to the MC himself considering the Parallel between the two of them. Not only is this far greater relevance than Nagato ever had, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a character Tobi could be that is as relevant on a personal "level" to as many characters important to the MC.

    Well let's look at Tobi's abilities

    1. S/T Jutsu
    2. Izangi
    3. Kyuubi Control

    Danzo was able to use Izanagi & control the Kyuubi simply because he had Sharingan & Hashirama's DNA Implanted into him. So Obito could have easily gained both of these abilities simply from having Madara or Zetsu implant Hashirama's DNA into him. So he could have gained these two abilities with absolutely not training. That just leaves his S/T Jutsu.

    & due I think Obito under the guidance of Madara or Zetsu could have mastered one of his powerful Sharingan abilities within a Year, yes I do think the could have.

    & this is based on the assumption that Kakashi was 13 in Gaiden.

    Your just assuming this out of convenience for your argument. Fact of the matter is we have no clue when Tobi is acting or telling the truth anymore. I mean let's remember that Tobi was acting like a goofball when he first appeared, even though it was just him and Zetsu.

    Dude all i'm trying to do is point out that there is a precedence for Kishimoto depicting inconsistent time-lines, so I do not think any time-line based counter argument against Obito = Tobi is a very strong argument. It would be a fair point, that is if you could prove Kakashi was 13 which I have yet to see proof of, but I still don't think it would be a damming argument due to Kishimoto's previous inconsistencies with the time-line.
     
  48. Donquixote Doflamingo Master Puppeteer

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    Your explanation for Obitos motivation is no where near good enough, re-read chapter 244.

    Obito would of never willingly betrayed the leaf.
     
  49. Alec Divine

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    /thread..Tobi is not obito and never will be.. His only relevance was to help kakashi grow.
     
  50. Puppetry Ōkashō

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    Essentially what PikaCheeka stated. Obito doesn't have the motivation Tobi does, nor do what we know of him allow me to assume he does. You can make the assumption all you want, but I won't.
     

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