1. The NF rules of conduct have been updated in response to the Xenforo upgrade. Please review them here.
  2. Please discuss and vote on the fate of the reputation system here.
  3. The forum medals contest is being extended for another month. Check this thread for more information.

To The Calcs & Likeminded

Discussion in 'Meta Battledome' started by lihimsidhe, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    It's truly amazing what you all do. Whether it's calculating the average density of the stone pillars in Hueco Mundo, disproving or validating FTL feats, or how much force is behind a Kamehameha it's astounding what goes occurs on this site and the OBD wiki.

    One question that I have been asking myself over and over since I realized there was a dedicated calculation community is:

    What do you think of the idea of fictional calculation software that makes this process very accessible to a non math person?

    I'm asking because I'm interested in making such software. However, I have identified non technical issues surrounding such software that I want to address with the community before serious resources go towards its development.

    Pride. I swear some of you are currently or could very well be science and math professors. James Kakalios would be proud. The point is that to do such involved calcs demands a certain level of skill and finesse. Exhibiting said skills can be a source of pride.

    Would a program that makes such a process accessible to the masses infringe on this pride? Would I hear vet calculators scream from the mountaintops how such a program is ruining their community now that Newb Ownerton is coming up with density and force values out his ass saying he used the calculator?

    Is This a Solution For a Real Problem? Meaning if I did go about and create the 'Ultimate Fictional Calculator' would people even want it? Would anyone give a damn? How many non calcs who use this site wish they had the time and/or skill to cross over to the hardcore math realm? Or is calculation more so a spectator event in which everyone likes to watch but no one wants to get involved?

    What Would You Want? The only thing I am dead set on is accessibility. Aside from that, what would you like to see in this hypothetical fictional calculator? Built in indexes for averages? A graphical interface that resembles a 2D sidescroller? Let me know!

    I just don't want to build something no one wants.
     
  2. ChaosTheory123 Bored with This

    Messages:
    11,711
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Pride?

    Nah.

    I'm just here doing this for shits and giggles because its interesting.

    If you want to make a program that can do this sort of thing, go ahead (not sure how you would. It'd probably just end up like a regular calculator with a multitude of equations and such built in I guess.)

    Though, not sure why you'd suggest some of the stuff we do is inaccessible to the average person. I mean, Brohan cites doing this shit as a reason his math grade improved. I'm a psych major. I'd say we sort of represent the average non-math oriented person personally.

    We just figured out how to count a bunch of pixels in an expedient manner and did a bunch of scalings. As long as you can do a bit of subraction and a small amount of division and multiplication, anyone can scale.

    Still though, if you want to tackle this, feel free.
     
  3. Kurou GINGA DOROBO

    Messages:
    18,644
    Likes Received:
    220
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Doing calcs isn't that hard honestly. I've done a few myself. I just get bored halfway through. I let my nigga's GM and Chaos handle my light work :maybe
     
  4. Lina Inverse Lina Inverse Fanboy

    Messages:
    7,571
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    48
    you could prolly start by making a program that can read pixels in an image then translate it to, say, meters or feet based on input

    good luck with that BTW
     
  5. jetwaterluffy1 Active Member

    Messages:
    6,243
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    The only major problem with this is that you need to know where the numbers come from. If you got it to write this stuff out, you can hardly accuse someone of "coming up with density and force values out his ass saying he used the calculator". But if you get this to work that would be brilliant.
     
  6. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I expected resistance towards this. I suppose I'm just paranoid. Anyways....

    ChaosTheory123 wrote:

    "If you want to make a program that can do this sort of thing, go ahead (not sure how you would. It'd probably just end up like a regular calculator with a multitude of equations and such built in I guess.)"


    You're mostly on the mark. However it seems to make this truly accessible a visual element of the forces at work would go a great way at explaining what's going on.

    Lina Inverse wrote:

    "you could prolly start by making a program that can read pixels in an image then translate it to, say, meters or feet based on input."

    Counting pixels? I have to say that never even occurred to me in the slightest. So let's say the calculator counts pixels for a give scan... should there be a standard quality/DPI to go off of? Your standard TIFF image will have more pixels than the crappiest JPEG you can find for example.

    jetwaterluffy1 wrote:

    "The only major problem with this is that you need to know where the numbers come from. If you got it to write this stuff out, you can hardly accuse someone of "coming up with density and force values out his ass saying he used the calculator". But if you get this to work that would be brilliant."


    So what I'm taking away from this is that the calculations that go on 'under the hood' should always be retrievable. Not only that but this does give me the idea that calcuations should be able to be saved along with all the relevant media that went with them.

    "Oooh you want that Getsaga Tenshou calculation? From the Grimmjow first encounter fight? Yeah let me get that. I have the file here somewhere."

    Like that.

    I'm grateful for the respones I have gotten thus far. I'm not looking to create a fully featured calculator from the get go. I'm looking to put together a streamlined program with a minimum set of features that people (you calculatur minded) actually want.

    From there I plan to iterate the product based mostly on feedback with a dash of my own intuition.

    So again thank you.
     
  7. Nevermind Evil Nihilist

    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    48
    That shouldn't matter much. The ratios should still be the same due to the image's perspective, so the scaling should be unaffected.

    One thing you might want to take a look at is my calc tools blog.

    There's a variety of calculators that we all have to use. Integrating them all into one program would be most helpful and save a hell of a lot of time.
     
  8. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    @nevermind: i've been skimming your blogs since yesterday. holy christ man....

    okay i want my goal in this potential project to be clear. i am friends with several programmers that have the know how to do this. i also have a vested interest in what the debating community, and the calculation community in particular, wants.

    i want to truly find out what you calculators would want to see in an ultimate all in one calculator, relay that to programmers, and get a product up and running.

    so i'm not too savvy with all this insane math you are all doing. i'm good with logic, with art, with driving military vehicles through hostile and ridiculous terrain in afghanistan but all that stuff in your blogs? it's mind boggling.

    so let me throw this out there and see what happens.
     
  9. cacomixl Member

    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    The only value I see in this is in teaching people basic formulas:

    when I click the "how fast?" button, it asks me for distance and time. Interesting.

    But see, all that information has to come from the scan and the user still has to act as intermediary between the scan and the program. As soon as the input demanded becomes more esoteric, your target consumer will become confused and enter incorrect values. Those who understand what's being asked for will use a basic calculator instead.

    Better would be a blog explaining scale and perspective and listing some common formulas. You could then show by way of example how to interpret various scans and extract numerical values.
     
  10. Nevermind Evil Nihilist

    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well it's not that hard, as Chaos mentioned already.

    The first thing we'd need is a calculator that can handle really big numbers. X. You can find them all in those tools and Fluttershy has expanded mine a bit. But pretty much all of the ones listed we'd need, since we need to calculate various shit- one for mass there, one for KE there, etc.

    You can start small if you want, and add more stuff later.
     
  11. JayDox Member

    Messages:
    746
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Go ahead and make it. I actually had this exact same idea last night. Though I have a major question: How would it calculate speed? I get how it could calc destructive capacity using pixels and mass destroyed and energy released. But what about speed?

    Oh and I would buy it
     
  12. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    cacomixl wrote:

    The only value I see in this is in teaching people basic formulas:

    when I click the "how fast?" button, it asks me for distance and time. Interesting.

    But see, all that information has to come from the scan and the user still has to act as intermediary between the scan and the program. As soon as the input demanded becomes more esoteric, your target consumer will become confused and enter incorrect values. Those who understand what's being asked for will use a basic calculator instead.


    i agree. not only that it's the direction i want to go. you may have something with a calculator asking questions such as ,"how fast?" and inputing values that anyone can come up with. at the same time i see a need for something more comprehensive. at the very least it needs two layers: one for non math wizards and one for the wizards populating this board with the option to go in between seamlessly.

    nevermind wrote:

    You can find them all in those tools and Fluttershy has expanded mine a bit. But pretty much all of the ones listed we'd need, since we need to calculate various shit- one for mass there, one for KE there, etc.


    if you could be more specific, that would be great. for example upon launch i would like to have the means for the calculator to do simple stuff like time, distance, and rate via the question method cacomix suggested. however, if there were some must have formulas (think top three) then by all means list them.

    jaydox wrote:

    Go ahead and make it. I actually had this exact same idea last night. Though I have a major question: How would it calculate speed? I get how it could calc destructive capacity using pixels and mass destroyed and energy released. But what about speed?

    Oh and I would buy it.


    making money off this is not my main concern at the moment. learning from you, everyone in this thread, and the hardcore calculators that do this simply because it's an extension of their adoration for a given media most definitely IS my main concern.

    what i have seen so far is a need for a pixel counter. i was able to infer that since this thread has displayed a desire for a pixel counter that there presently was none. a google search turned up no pixel counters like the one being discussed here although i did come across an interesting blog by the name of pixelcounterrr. oh and a suggestion to upload images into photoshop and get pixel data that way.

    but i don't think that's what is being asked for.

    so with that said, i already contacted the people i'll be working with and and we are now exploring how to go about creating a pixel counter. keep in mind that doesn't mean i'm done collecting feedback. i will NEVER be done collecting feedback. this is just the beginning.

    believe it or not but we are going to be building this together.

    please keep the suggestions coming.
     
  13. ChINaMaN1472 Active Member

    Messages:
    3,337
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    /rant

    Though I've been absent for a bit, IIRC calcs tend to use pretty basic formulas - we rarely ever dove into complex formulas that required "higher" math at all. A quick google search can probably find you a calculator for velocity, acceleration, distance, range, energy, and physical properties (mass, density, etc.). You'd need a basic understanding of how these formulas work still.

    What's hard is actually seeing how those numbers can be derived. Thinking in a specific panel, how big something is, how far away something, etc. Then thinking what's changed in the next panel, how close is the object now, how big is the object now, etc. That's what's challenging.

    Though, I'd say it'd be interesting to see what your take on this is exactly. The tools are already available - if someone isn't willing to take the time to learn them, chances are they won't be able to utilize this program correctly. You'll need to literally take them step by step. As with any calculation, it's easy to simply plug and chug some numbers and get an answer. If you don't understand some of the basic formulas and what not, you won't really know if you get a right answer. It's easy to say "well, I plugged all the numbers in right, so the answer has to be right" despite the fact logical reasoning would invalidate the calc.

    Though having an "all in one" calc would be handy.

    Also, I don't understand why you'd need a program for a pixel counter. MS Paint can already pixel count for the most part. The only math that's necessary are for diagonal lines, in which can use the Pythagorean Theory to get (a^2+b^2=c^2, where a and b are the length and height) the pixel count.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  14. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    there is a feature of photoshop that creates a 3 dimensional grid that you can rotate on all axis. this grid feature helps a user conform a given media piece to the laws of perspective.

    if you apply the same principle of a grid to a manga panel for instance and determine before hand that each grid square = x area then you could use this grid to determine distances with a great amount of accuracy. all you would have to do is align the grid with the perspective already present in the picture. if there were no clear vanishing points (such as a fight in the clouds or space) i suppose that's where human intuition would come into play.

    so with the above solution in mind exactly why do calculators need to count pixels?

    I tend to be verbose (I'm working on it I swear!) so I will try to be clear.

    I am interested in creating a calculator that can extract quantifiable data from subjective media. In other words what the calculator community is already doing on this site and the OBD Wiki. However, I want this calculator to be accessible to a non math person and useful to a math whiz just the same.

    if this project actually takes off (simply meaning i get a lot of feedback because that's what i really need) i would love to implement a gary's mod type of feature done via NES era sprite graphics. however this feature would be to get a visual representation of the science at work or perhaps... just to mess around with.
     
  15. ChINaMaN1472 Active Member

    Messages:
    3,337
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    :hmm
    Interesting, didn't know photoshop had a feature like that. You have a link on that function, perhaps a tutorial?
    I don't know, you were the one saying that you needed something to pixel count. I was simply saying that a simple program such as MS Paint can be used to pixel count.
    Sorry for the poor wordage, I understand what you are trying to do. I'm just interested on how it will be done.

    As I said, the biggest obstacle with calcs isn't the math part. The formulas, scaling, etc. is mostly arithmetic, rarely every going past Algebra or Geometry. What's hard is conceiving the concept that you can have this line of thinking...

    The scenario: We see an object drop from an "unknown height" in one panel, and see it's relative position in another panel. Mr. Person moved some "unknown distance" during that time in some other panels. How fast is Mr. Person?

    The thought process: We need to scale something and find how far the object fell, and the distance Mr. Person moved. Once we find the how far the object fell, we can use gravity to determine a time frame, and once we have a time frame, can determine Mr. Person's speed.

    The hard part is connecting something in free fall to someone traveling. It doesn't have anything to do with math (well, it does, just not from a numbers perspective). I'm just interested on how you'll be able to make an app/calculator for "a non math person" to be able to relay that information with minimal error.
     
  16. God Movement Admanistrator

    Messages:
    29,449
    Likes Received:
    905
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This would be pretty cool.
     
  17. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    X

    That gives you the basics on the tool. It's not comprehensive but it's enough.

    X

    This is an illustration I did. Take note of the hexagon plane. To do that all I did was to create one hexagon in Photoshop, copy, paste, and align hexagons until I had eight or so looking like they were connected. Then from there I kept copying and pasting until I had a MASSIVE hexagon plane. I selected the plane and did a Free Transform on the plane until it was at the perspective I wanted.

    I could easily do the same thing with squares.

    This thread expressed a need for software that counted pixels. The programmer I'm working with already whipped up a prototype.

    I follow you. Until a mangaka comes straight out and states something it's up to us to speculate always knowing in the back of our minds that we'll never have THE true answer....

    ...but at the same time hoping we can arrive at A true answer.

    Fans can do that if they have the tools to aggregate their work. For example if 1,000 hardcore Bleach fans all give different answers for the 'unknown height', 'unknown object', and 'unknown distance'... you can average those answers together.

    And use that average as a basis for doing calcs.

    And if someone doesn't like it or disagrees they can do their own scenarios based on whatever they like. If people like it then it will garner attention. Simple as that.

    Because if you can't find any kind of truth in a given fiction's dedicated fanbase exactly where are you going to find it?

    That's why I'm here after all. That's why we are all here.
     
  18. Tranquil Fury Leech Lord

    Messages:
    31,851
    Likes Received:
    161
    Trophy Points:
    63
    This thread has my interest.
     
  19. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    So it seems that there's a fair amount of interest here but very little feedback. Why is that?

    In all the books I've read on developing products and services one thing has always been clear: listen to what people want. I come here, put out my ear and I hear crickets for the most part.

    So I think I'm just going to develop this on my own. If anyone would like to try out the prototype version I got done based on the very little feedback I got I'll have it posted up on my website soon.
     
  20. ChINaMaN1472 Active Member

    Messages:
    3,337
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Cool beans, I'll have to try it out and see how it compares with other methods.

    And yet, MS Paint can do the necessary function if you can drag a mouse. Converting the pixels so you can scale it would be the tool I'm hoping he's whipping up.

    You missed my point with the scenario. It was to convey the thought process behind doing a calc. If all you're given is an object falling and someone moving a distance, how would you find the speed? THAT'S what's challenging about doing calcs.

    Doing calcs is about finding an answer with what the mangaka shows us.

    A Fanbase can and will likely have bias. And it's easy to overestimate when you like something and look at it less objectively - because people (on forums) tend to favor their preferred fiction over fictions that display similar power tendencies (for instance, One Piece vs. Bleach vs. Naruto).

    Averaging 1000 calcs is meaningless, if all 1000 calcs are done incorrectly. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right, and just because something is right, doesn't mean it's popular. Now, if the tools are used correctly, then most of the calcs should come pretty close anyway.

    For instance, I've seen other forums where the consensus are putting Ichigo in the same league as Goku - based on feats shown, mostly due to the artistic style of Bleach.

    You find truth in people who can objectively look at the data and analyze it correctly. Doing calcs, and churning out a number is only part of the process. Analyzing whether that number makes sense is the other part.

    It's difficult for most people to wrap their heads around what Mach 15 ACTUALLY means, and applying it to the given scenario. It's easy to say "oh yea, these calcs put Character A at Mach 13 and these other calcs put Character B at Mach 11. Character A would probably blitz" because it's just being reduced down to a simple number. And yet in reality, Character A probably wouldn't blitz. He'd have a speed advantage, but it wouldn't be an outright blitz.

    Another is assuming the speed of a particular object or person, and then churning out a number based on that speed, which rarely ever works because the resulting speed ends up being multiple times faster than the assumed speed, which makes the scenario completely illogical. But it's easy to come to the conclusion and accept the answer because the formula(s) used were all correct.

    It's probably because understanding how to do calcs requires filling in a gap of education. Once you realize how to do calcs, all the tools are already available - probably just inconvenient. If you don't know how to do calcs, well, it's tough to figure out the tools that you need.

    Here's a question: A cannon ball flies through the air and is intercepted by Mr. Person from what looks to be a 45? angle. How would derive Mr. Person's speed? What tools do YOU need to figure that out?

    Because from what it sounds like, that is what you're looking for in this thread - at least for a specific scenario.

    I can lay out my thought process and it'd probably help you formulate an idea of what you'd need, but the reason why you're probably getting crickets is because people that don't know how to do calcs don't know how to approach the problem. People that know how do to the calcs proceed to do it like it's second nature. See my example from before - that thought process happens pretty instantaneously for the seasoned calcers.

    It's similar to the gap of education in fixing in a computer. A majority of people don't understand how a computer works, and use it because it functions, but can't fix it when it breaks. The people that do understand it can practically diagnose it blindfolded and do all the steps without really thinking about it.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  21. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    It's been a minute. You'll have to excuse me. Sometimes the Army actually DOES keep me busy with missions and all. Ha. Anyways onto the topic.

    ChaosTheory123 wrote:

    Though, not sure why you'd suggest some of the stuff we do is inaccessible to the average person. I mean, Brohan cites doing this shit as a reason his math grade improved. I'm a psych major. I'd say we sort of represent the average non-math oriented person personally.

    I am bad at math. Yet I admire what calcs do for the medium. You could even say I love it. Yet from middle school, to high school, college, and beyond I have always struggled with it. I can sit down with you and debate logic and esoteric metaphysics all day but anything beyond simple math and time distance and rate and I'm lost.

    I want to make something I could use with ease. Something people like me can use to jump in the fray with you and your ilk. You're a humble person. :)

    @Lina Inverse wrote:

    you could prolly start by making a program that can read pixels in an image then translate it to, say, meters or feet based on input

    good luck with that BTW


    Pixel to distance covnersion. Got it. I'll have it availible for download within the next week or two.

    JayDox wrote:

    Go ahead and make it. I actually had this exact same idea last night. Though I have a major question: How would it calculate speed? I get how it could calc destructive capacity using pixels and mass destroyed and energy released. But what about speed?

    Oh and I would buy it


    How much would you pay for a prototype that also got you all future updates to it for free?

    God Movement wrote:

    This would be pretty cool.


    I have my reasons for thinking why this would be pretty cool but what are your reasons? Anything you'd like to see included?

    Tranquil Theory wrote:

    This thread has my interest.


    Why is that? Any feedback you could provide would be very helpful. And what's with the sig? Such a finely done drawing just to tell people not to F with a car? Maybe I'm ignorant of the latest memes being deployed. *shurgs*

    @Chinaman1472:

    One part was me being busy that took so long to respond.. The other part was that you more or less just shut me up. Not that you aimed to do that. Your feedback was so concise and irrefutable I didn't know what to say.

    You said:

    It's probably because understanding how to do calcs requires filling in a gap of education. Once you realize how to do calcs, all the tools are already available - probably just inconvenient. If you don't know how to do calcs, well, it's tough to figure out the tools that you need.


    You're right. Since I know how to do time, distance, and rate that's what gave me the idea of applying grids to scans. But since I don't know how to do anything else I'm at a loss.

    You said:

    I can lay out my thought process and it'd probably help you formulate an idea of what you'd need, but the reason why you're probably getting crickets is because people that don't know how to do calcs don't know how to approach the problem. People that know how do to the calcs proceed to do it like it's second nature. See my example from before - that thought process happens pretty instantaneously for the seasoned calcers.


    Right on the money again. If you would be so kind as to lay out the thought process I'd be much obliged. I guess what I'm also trying to say is that despite me being bad at math my whole life I'm willing to give it another shot if that's what making this calculator really takes. I thought I could just collect some feeback on some desired features, relay this to my programmer and just smash it all together somehow but I guess that was being naive and optimistic.

    Again, I really admire what the calc community has accomplished here but I know it can be taken further than it is now. I feel that the small calc community on this site and the OBD wiki is what makes this site special. Because if it wasn't for all of you all I really see is an out of date forum package, cheesy ads I wouldn't click with YOUR mouse and a Naruto banner.

    I mean this site has 200,000+ members so maybe I'm just being shortsighed.

    Anyways... this is way past TL;DR. I'll end here.
     
  22. ChINaMaN1472 Active Member

    Messages:
    3,337
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    The scenario: A cannon ball flies through the air and is intercepted by Mr. Person from what looks to be a 45? angle. How would derive Mr. Person's speed? What tools do YOU need to figure that out?

    First thought: cannonball muzzle velocity and a simplistic picture. So, the easiest way without drawing it would be the cannonball is heading from North to South. Mr. Person is heading from Southeast to Northwest.

    Second thought: How far did the cannonball travel before it got intercepted. If I have cannonball muzzle velocity and distance, I can get a time for Mr. Person's traveling time. I need to be able to scale some scans and get an idea of that distance.

    Third thought: How far did Mr. Person travel to intercept the cannonball. This distance divided by the time I derived in my second thought, gives me Mr. Person's velocity. I need to be able to scale scans and get an idea for how far Mr. Person traveled.
     
  23. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    @Chinaman1472: Hey sorry for the late response. I've been busy with ending deployment.

    What I gather from you is that instead of just a hard, by the numbers, calculator this software needs to just ask simple questions too. Such as:

    "Do you know the velocity of the object?"

    "Do you know it's mass?"

    "Is their any wind resistance? If so which direction?"

    "What is the shape of the object?"

    I also firmly believe that an aggregation system is what will make this software succeed. Aggregation with higher voting powers given to proven 'Subject Matter Experts' whether it be someone that has proven their skills with math or even someone who isn't good at math but has demonstrated logical, unbiased, views.

    I'm working with my programmer to get a grid prototype up and running but we are finishing up the pixel counting iteration first.
     
  24. Weather Wonder Wind~

    Messages:
    2,914
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    I'm not a calc person, but this idea is interesting.

    Looking foward to what comes out of it.
     
  25. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    @weather: by all means anything you would like to see, wouldn't like to see would be very appreciated. this project will only grow into something great with feedback. so no matter how trivial it may seem, let your opinion out! :)
     
  26. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Excuse the thread necro. Just because it's been four months since the last response doesn't mean I'm not any less serious about this.

    I've been playing a lot of Scott Pilgrim vs the World lately and I keep imagining a 'Physics Mode'. This mode would allow the forces behind each and every action to be displayed and recorded. It would also allow the player to edit the attributes of characters, actions, and materials on the fly or to match that of indexed values (steel, speed of sound, gravity, etc).

    I realized that what I want to create is not so much a calculator but a game with a strong calculation element to it. a 'physics brawler' if you will.

    Now that the idea of a 'physics brawler' encapsulates what I've been trying to explain what would you want to see in it?
     
  27. Mohamilton Pirate King

    Messages:
    201
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    If what you're trying to do is something that couldn't just be done with a list of several programmed calculators, I'd say the only way it could be accomplished is through asking the user several questions and applying those questions in a methodical order. Example: Program has a number of buttons on the default interface -- "Scale", "Velocity", "Kinetic/Potential Energy", etc. All general functions that the calculations on NF use now and then.

    The most prominent of course is scaling, which would be measuring straight lines, arcs, and anything on-panel that has a quantified context. So a user clicks "Scale" and then the prompt is given by the program to upload a image. After a successful upload the user is at this point given by the program built-in tools that can draw lines, count pixels, and erase. So the user draws a line across another line and clicks the "Count Pixels" button; then clicks "Finished measuring specific scale" which prompts the user to input a specific scale (ex: any positive number) to apply to the entire image, and it also asks the user to check box the unit it'll be measured in (ex: feet, meters, miles, kilometers). After that the user clicks the "Finished inputting specific scale" he/she's then given the prompt to apply this scale on the image, again with various tools (ex: eraser, change color line, change units, store measurement, save picture). Now the user could draw lines across the image with the lengths directly on top of them.

    So this is a very rough outline of how this could done. It requires a lot of work and thinking but it's possible if you take it step by step.
     
  28. Endless Mike Getting too old for this shit

    Messages:
    38,641
    Likes Received:
    277
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Just make sure the calcers still have to show their work, we don't want them doing it wrong (either due to incompetence or deception) and then using this calculator as an excuse to hide it.
     
  29. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    All calculations done via software would have a readout function where a readout of the calculations can be viewed in the pure mathematical terms. So that means if I used this calculator to demonstrate that x character's durability is y, i would have access to all the readouts to be validated or invalidated by hardcore math wizards such as yourself. If a person doesn't provide the readouts, then their arguments would still be as invalid as ever.

    The point of this endeavor is to allow non math people, such as myself, to be able to participate in a meaningful way. You are all working in obscure DOS and I want to give these efforts a Windows layer. That doesn't mean you can't go into the command prompt and manually do every point and click, folder open command and the like....

    ...but having Windows makes using a computer a lot easier doesn't it? ;)
     
  30. Shock Therapy Divine Power Monochrome

    Messages:
    7,856
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    most of the calcs done now are around high school level of math and physics so they aren't really that hard. honestly i can't see calcs ever requiring advanced engineering mathematics like fourier series, laplace transformations, or taylor series.
     
  31. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I've never been good at math dude. I was barely able to scrape by high school algerbra. My deficiency in math doesn't discredit my logical capacity, however. I started to think how many people like me (whom can provide sound debates) just weren't skilled at math but would like to contribute.

    That's when I got thinking of a program that was somewhere between a game and a physics calculator could bridge that gap and people like me could provide solid calculations as readily as some math whiz.

    Since I was last on here I have decided to give math another shot. In fact I just started to date someone who has a master's degree in science. I showed her some of the calcs done on this site and told her, I would like to know how to do that.", and she's excited to help me get there. This weekend we are tackling F=MA and hopefully density.

    Even if I learn to do all the things you all are able to do I still see a need for a program. The only reason you are all not downloading and testing out a prototype right now is because I didn't receive enough feedback.

    Anyways, expect me to make a lot more noise in the coming months. ;)
     
  32. feebas_factor friengineer

    Messages:
    2,204
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Heat transfer calcs. :LOS

    ...most of those don't quite end up panning out anyway though, since the process in fiction tends to be so far divorced from reality.
     
  33. Cygnus45 semi retired

    Messages:
    2,760
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    38
    sounds like "debug mode" in sonic 2. many fighting games also have ways to see frame rates and data of the characters.
     
  34. lihimsidhe Likes to Debate-Kun

    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I can now do the not so hard as once thought F=MA and V=vgh. So basically I know how many newtons a given mass traveling at a given speed contains and how many newtons it would take to punch someone x height into the atmosphere.

    Where would I start looking to determine what x amount of newtons would give to a type of matter of a given density?
     

Share This Page