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The meaning of "Kenpachi" in the Gotei 13

Discussion in 'Society Library' started by JackRyder, May 22, 2012.

  1. JackRyder Ryder

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    So I think that many people found it confusing or a plot inconsistency that during the SS arc, it was mentioned that the title "Kenpachi" was given to the strongest shinigami in the Gotei 13... yet it is later revealed that there are many shinigami far stronger than Kenpachi including Aizen, Yamamoto, Isshin, Urahara, Kyouraku, Ukitake, Unohana, Yoruichi, and Gin.

    It made one wonder about the definition of "strongest" shinigami. Strongest in what exactly?

    With the new information about Azashiro Kenpachi, the 8th Kenpachi in SS it all became clear.

    Azashiro rightfully deserved the title of strongest shinigami. His power was at a level that even Aizen himself respected and claimed that his Kyouka Suigetsu would not work on (Even Yamamoto had to grab hold of Aizen by getting stabbed to prevent KS from affecting him).

    From what we know of the novel, Azashiro did "something" and was imprisoned in Mugen by SS and Gotei 13. He was not "defeated" and succeeded by the 9th Kenpachi. No, rather the 9th Kenpachi was actually just the Vice-Captain of Azashiro and was auto-promoted to captain of the 11th squad and subsequently given the title of 9th Kenpachi.

    Evidently this means that 9th Kenpachi was not necessarily stronger than Azashiro or even captain material really.

    Now you might ask, well why wasn't Hisagi and Kira promoted to Captain in the absence (betrayal) of their squad captains? Well that is because the 11th squad captain position is a special position. The 3 requirements to become a captain (as outlined by Yoruichi) does not apply to this squad. Anyone that kills the current captain becomes the next captain. Well since Azashiro wasn't killed, this ritual could not be completed which left a vacancy in the position. The next was to promote the second in command to captain.

    So the 9th Kenpachi did not "earn" his position. He was just given it. Being a mere VC level, it was no surprise that the 10th Kenpachi beat him and took over. And the same with the current Kenpachi.

    Basically it's just this: Azashiro was imprisoned and not defeated and thus the title of Kenpachi was handed to some fodder. This means that the title of "strongest" was seriously downgraded, devalued, and cheapened.

    The fact that Zaraki holds the title of Kenpachi means nothing. Zaraki is of course still a pretty strong captain but he is definitely not "the strongest" or anywhere close. I'm amazed at how Kubo managed to retcon this plot hole so well with this backstory.
     
  2. Grimm

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    1st.
    Let me ask you this:
    The 8th Kenpachi(Azashiro) was arround longer than 1000 years or arround the past 1000 years?
    I am asking this because Yamamoto said himself to Aizen that in the past 1000 years there hasnt been a Shinigami stronger than himself ...

    2nd.
    Was it directly stated that Azashiro had reiatsu so high that he would negate Kyouka Suigetsu?
    I am asking this because this would be just pure bullshit ... He would be tons stronger than Aizen and Yamamoto and thats just not possible for a Shinigami whos younger, much younger than Yamamoto(Im basing this on his apperance since he seems to be arround Isshin, Shunsuis age), plus thats a little over the limit of the Shinigamis powers, Aizen himself claimed that his abilities were unsurpassable in Soul Society.

    3rd.
    It was never confirmed that there were any Captains stronger than Zaraki Kenpachi aside from Yamamoto. It "seemed" to us(some of us fans) that there were Captains stronger than Kenpachi due to their "inteligence" and "zanpakutou abilities"(BTW in Aizens case, he never revealed his power when he was a Captain), however it was never confirmed anything about him being weaker, he could be but its not yet confirmed. And for the record, no Captain has shown raw power even close to that of Kenpachis aside from Yamamoto whos the Captain Commander so Kenpachi MAY as well be the strongest and he has feats that "imply" this such as:

    -His unpatched strikes are basically one-shooters for any Captain.
    -He restricts himself using bells and en eyeptach that restricts reiatsu to enjoy himself in battle for a longer time(to not own his opponent instantly).
    -While patched can hold himself against two other Captains in shikai(Komamura and Tousen).
    -Defeated Tousen in bankai while patched and Tousens bankai is among the top 5 most hax abilities in this manga, after all restricting your opponents vision, smell and hearing is one hell of an ability and Kenpachi could counter this BY LETTING Tousen stab himself on pourpose ...
    -One-shooting the Espada with the strongest hierro while released with a simple two handed sword strike from mid-range ...

    Kenpachi has indeed feats to put him among the strongests shinigamis, his endurance, durability and physical strength and even his reflexes(dodging Tousens strikes without 3 of his main senses to the point where the wounds inflicted would not be fatal and he was dodging those strikes when they were touching his clothes, so that he could feel exactly where they would come from and therefore dodge a BIT of the strike) are the best in Soul Society not counting Yamamoto.
     
  3. Halibel La Tres

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    the novel is canon right?
     
  4. Grand Cross Funkiest Dealer

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    A Kenpachi isn't the strongest Shinigami, just the best swordsman in the Gotei 13.

    And this is the very definition of jumping to conclusions. Yamamoto made it explicitly clear that in the last 1000 years not a single Shinigami has surpassed him. In a world where everyone has a unique ability, the more logical assumption is Azashiro simply has an ability that makes Kyouka Suigetsu null. It's been hinted at that his ability is perception-based already.

    Threads like these, or rather, notions like these are why the Vasto Lorde were so hyped around these parts.
     
  5. Magicbullet Banned

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    Aizen didn't mention why KS might not work on him. At least in that excerpt he didn't.

    Though you do make a good point that the title has potentially been "cheapened" by the 9th's promotion, however, we don't know if the VC was just fodder or not. He might not have been.
     
  6. Tre_azam Member

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    what novel is this? kubo released a novel? LOL
     
  7. Halloween Fanatic The Zealot of Samhain

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    The only thing clear is this:

    Azashiro is the real Kenpachi.

    Zaraki, the bitch, never earned it and will never be the Kenpachi until he kills Azashiro or kills the one who kills Azashiro etc.
     
  8. Mist Puppet HATE NEWSPAPERS Moderator

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    When did they say that the word "Kenpachi" meant the strongest of the Shinigami? That wouldn't have made sense at all, even when it was first introduced.

    Not Kubo, someone else, though Kubo does have his hand in it.
     
  9. Grimm

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    Azashiro was not killed. He was imprisoned. And why talk so bad about Kenpachi when he clearly killed the previous Captain and is the only Kenpachi with actual feats? Azashiro has just been introduced in a novel that is probably non-cannon ... :lmao

    It was stated by Zaraki himself before he joined the Gotei13(in his and Yachirus flashback).
     
  10. Johnny &#32

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    Pretty sure the novel... or novella cuz of its size... is canon.

    Either way this isn't some glorified fanfic.
     
  11. Grand Cross Funkiest Dealer

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    No, the title of "Kenpachi" goes to the strongest swordsman in Soul Society, not the strongest Shinigami. The strongest Shinigami becomes Captain Commander.
     
  12. Magicbullet Banned

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    Neah, Zaraki earned it alright, the traditional way, it's just the his opponent might not have been so strong. And that's definitely no more than a maybe since he killed that bastard that would regularly defy authority and so probably had the power to back up his attitude :maybe (from TBTP)
     
  13. Handsome Yak smooching with ghosts Advisor

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    Wasn't it stated somewhere that the title went to the one who has fought the most battles and killed the most enemies? Or was that just an anime filler line? Wait, let me look that up...

    EDIT:

    Spoiler:
    X


    There you go. Unless that is a misstranslation. Early Bleach scans were a bit...iffy at times.

    Also, I don't know if you just 'earn' the title by slaying the acting Kenpachi, regardless of whether or not you have surpassed his 'body count'.

    Either way, I guess the Zaraki Kenpachi has earned his title one way or another, given his bloodthirsty attitude. And the previous ones before him, probably, too.
     
  14. Edward Newgate 世界最強の男

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    I doubt Zaraki killed the most enemies, since we've guys like Yamamoto who are over 2000 years old.

    Why is it said that it's given to the best Shinigami in SS if the known Zaraki are clearly not the best?
     
  15. Handsome Yak smooching with ghosts Advisor

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    And he has been captain commander for a very long time, if not that very period. Generals hardly enter the fray when they have their lower officers doing the job. Plus, wherever there is turmoil, Zaraki is hell-bent on being there first. Was that way when the Ryoka landed, no?

    So yeah, it is possible for other captains or shinigami to have been in more fights and have more kills than the captain commander. Boiling it down to small numbers,the average shinigami patrol in the weekend is engaging in more battles on a weekly basis than the captain commander is.

    EDIT:

    Additionally, think of what the assigned tasks of the divisions are. The 11th has always been the combat division. No matter what happens, they usually are up first when it comes to battles. Kubo might've later forgotten about that or retconned it or just stopped giving a fuck but that was their original purpose.
     
  16. Chuck &#32

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    interesting if it's canon, KS not working on him? :iik
     
  17. -Demian- The Black Phoenix

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    Well this is all very interesting and I would like to make my contribution




    X
     
  18. Grimm

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    I was only saying what I REMEMBER from the chapter/episode that I read/saw. I remember Kenpachi saying to Yachiru that his name would be Zaraki(name of one of the districts or something) and the other would be Kenpachi wich is the name"title" to the "strongest" shinigami.

    Yeah you do have a point, the strongest Shinigami is the CC ... Too many retcons(inconsistencies :maybe) in this manga to actually give a fuck about this ...
     
  19. DoubleX31 Satellite Cannon

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    Zaraki has been captain for less than 100 years right? I don't think anything important even happened in the last 100 years besides the Vaizard thing. Yamamoto, Ukitake, Kyoraku, and Unohana have been shinigami for much longer... such as the Quincy War.

    If you're going to use that logic, aren't all shinigami (well except Yoruichi) swordsman? And it's hard to believe that Zaraki or his predecessor were the best "swordsman" in SS. Both of them were thuggish brutes that had no skills whatsoever. Just swinging wildly. In fact, in the Noitorra fight, Zaraki actually decided to use Kendo which he learned from Yama.

    The 2000 year old man that teaches Kendo? I think I know who's the best swordsman in SS.
     
  20. Gina Final Villain

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    If everything but straight up hand to hand combat were excluded, Zaraki would likely be superior to the majority of Captains, largely due to his ridiculous endurance. The 11th division pride themselves at being "combat specialists", which I interpret to mean strictly hand to hand, since I recall Ikkaku expressing disdain at Iba having learned Kido, and of course there's the matter of Yumichika wishing to hide his Kido based Shikai from the rest of the division.

    So at most, the title "Kenpachi" should mean "strongest hand to hand combatant", although I would of course place Shinigami such as Aizen or Yamamoto significantly above him even in this category.

    As it stands, I would personally rank him as the least impressive Captain overall.
     
  21. DoubleX31 Satellite Cannon

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    Then what about Yoruichi, Soifon, and Urahara? The latter had to be able to defeat opponents in the Maggot's Nest with his bare hands... and the former two... Shunko.
     
  22. Tray Mοderator

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    Kendo + eyepatch (pachi)
    = kenpachi

    see where i am going to?
     
  23. Orxon shurorororo

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    X
     
  24. Grand Cross Funkiest Dealer

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    Calm down. Zaraki puts so much power behind his swings it doesn't matter if he has technique or not. And yes, since he's the Kenpachi then he should theoretically be the best swordsman in Soul Society, except for Yamamoto.
     
  25. titantron91 God Killer

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    Kenpachi is the best swordsman period.

    Zaraki, while the best swordsman other than Yamamoto., is...

    Not the best kido fighter
    Doesn't possess the strongest shikai/bankai (does he even have a bankai?)
    Not the best hand to hand fighter
    Not the fastest fighter
    Not the most intellectual
    Not the most cunning

    but

    he has arguably one of the most powerful reiatsu in SS
    his killer/fighting instinct is above all else
    his endurance is whack
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  26. Inertia Wants a Custom Title

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    :laugh....
     
  27. DoubleX31 Satellite Cannon

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    I am calm... he will need to defeat Azashiro to make that claim.
     
  28. Halloween Fanatic The Zealot of Samhain

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    +∞

    (Lame ass limits are lame.)
     
  29. Grand Cross Funkiest Dealer

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    Azashiro is glorified filler, so no manga-canon character in his tier will get their characters hurt because of him.
     
  30. ki0 Active Member

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    Kenpachi being the strongest swordsman makes no sense, no one has seen Azashiro sword. Kenpachi being the strongest shingami makes more sense. It would explain why the Central 46 lets Kenpachi do whatever he wants and why it's a special position.
     
  31. Grand Cross Funkiest Dealer

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    It doesn't make sense that the combat squad that all glorify physical combat's Captain is the strongest swordsman? You people and your preconceived notions are the very reason you're all disappointed when things don't go as you wanted. Kenpachi is not the strongest all around Shinigami and the story has proven that. What, Kenpachi is stronger than Shunsui or Aizen?

    :giogio
     
  32. ki0 Active Member

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    Where in the manga was it said that Kenpachi was the strongest swordsman? It said Kenpachi is the strongest shinigami: X

    It doesn't make sense because a previous Kenpachi, Azashiro's sword wasn't even seen by anyone. So how can they know he's the strongest swordsman? Zaraki Kenpachi wasn't even taught a formal style until he met Yamamoto. Yamamoto has been CC for over a 1000 years and Kenpachi is better than him at swordsmanship after less than a century? Another reason it wouldn't make sense, is because to become a Kenpachi you have to kill the previous one. You don't have to be a better swordsman, just stronger overall, since kido, hohou, and hakuda aren't said to be restricted in their fight to the death.


    The OP explained why Zaraki might not be the strongest because he didn't earn the title from the former Kenpachi, Azashiro.
     
  33. Grand Cross Funkiest Dealer

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    So you're using the old, bad manga translations to defend your argument? It makes 0 sense for the title of Kenpachi to be given to the strongest Shinigami when Kenpachi is not on Shunsui's level.

    Watch the dub of the episode, since it uses the Viz translation and you'll get your answer.

    And finally, don't base your argument from snippets of the novel without reading the whole thing. A lot of what has been revealed has little to no context. For the sake of your argument, forget Azashiro exists.
     
  34. ki0 Active Member

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    It doesn't make any sense for Kenpachi to be the strongest swordsman, that means Zaraki would have to be better than Yama at zanjutsu. Zaraki being better than any senior captain at zanjutsu wouldn't make sense, after he learned kendo he avoided kendo as much as he could, while the senior captains had centuries to train their kendo.
     
  35. jonat3 Active Member

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    ........

    You guys need to pay more attention to scans. The scan was posted on page 1 in this thread by Yak. It's not the strongest that gets accorded the title of Kenpachi, it's the one that has the most number of kills and victories. And kenpachi's sword skills suck.
     
  36. The End Heaven and Earth Burned to Ash

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    Until I see this Novel guy in the manga, he doesn't matter one bit.

    Also, Kenpachi has some insane sword skills, in every battle so far he has been TOYING with opponents, save for Nnotoira who he actually used kendo at the very end of the battle, he could've pulled that out anytime and defeated him easy.

    Like others said, other captains might have better shikai/bankai, kido, hand to hand, speed, intelligence, blah blah blah. Kenpachi clearly has the highest raw power we've seen so far with the exception of Yamamoto and obviously Aizen. I mean, the dude doesn't even know his swords name and he beat Tousen easily and pretty much 1hkoed the 5th espada.
     
  37. ki0 Active Member

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    Can u repost that link yak. The link on 1st pg is not working.
     
  38. jonat3 Active Member

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    Here it is:

    X
     
  39. ki0 Active Member

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    It says "sorry its licensed, its unavailable"
     
  40. jonat3 Active Member

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    Heh, must mean that mangafox has restricted the page for the US, since I can look at it just fine. Learned something new.

    Try this:

    X

    If that doesn't work, try looking for chapter 104 on another site.
     
  41. Roƅ Well-Known Member

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    Jesus!....Your like the Coruscation, or Pacifista of the Bleach Section...
     
  42. astrallite Member

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    He is a wizard obviously.
     
  43. HiroshiSenju Hiroshi Senju

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    I'm sorry, Gin, but I can't actually just ignore this and assume you're trolling or just trying to justify something in a seemingly logical way. The above explanation is, with all do respect, complete and utter bullshit. What the hell do you think the Onmitsukido exists for? The 11th Division is the combat division. Great, but they're Swordsmanship experts. This fact has been pretty much stressed constantly. When in the hell have you seen any 11th Division member besides Ikkaku fight without their swords, and in what way does that even put them anywhere near the level of fighters like Soi Fon, Urahara, Yoruichi, and the rest of the 2nd Division who specialize in Hakuda?

    And also, Ikkaku deplored Iba because he decided that it would be easier to become a Vice-Captain by being an all-rounder (Kido, Hakudo, Zanjutsu, and Hoho) than just becoming an expert in swordsmanship to become Vice-Captain of the 11th Division, which was nigh-impossible.

    Anyway, the retcon seems interesting, and I'm actually impressed Kubo managed to weave it in so well with previously given information. Makes it seem...a bit less like a blatant retcon :LOS
    However, we can't make any judgments until the actual novel comes out. Can't wait to see how it turns out. Azashiro has a pretty badass design.
     
  44. Magicbullet Banned

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    I get the impression Don didn't mean to say unarmed combat when he used the term "hand-to-hand" even though that's what usually it means. (it can also include a number of very-short-range weapons).

    I think he meant to say close combat or close quarters combat....:maybe
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  45. HiroshiSenju Hiroshi Senju

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    In that case, that would be the obvious and correct denotation :quite
     
  46. Gina Final Villain

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    In my experience, hand-to-hand combat means anything which isn't ranged combat. If I'm incorrect on this matter, as MB noted, I meant closed ranged weapons combat.

    If I'd meant Hakuda, I would have said Hakuda. :quite
     
  47. suiken_kempou (V) (;,,;) (V) *scuttle*

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    Yea, it doesn't mean strongest it means "Lover of Battle" the one in the Gotei 13 with the most passion for combat and battle is Kenpachi. Also remember, the same and only person to straight defeat Kenpachi was the same person to destroy Aizen and Shirosaki played a role in both fights.
     
  48. JackRyder Ryder

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    The title of Kenpachi given to the one with the most body counts doesn't make sense.

    I mean at most that would only apply to the very first Kenpachi. Any successor would not necessarily have more body counts than the previous.

    It can only mean "strongest shinigami" or "strongest swordsman" and this would make sense because if you beat the "best" or the "strongest" then naturally you are now the "best" or "strongest". The point in favour of "strongest shinigami" is that Azashiro was at level that even Aizen himself respects and claimed that his absolute hypnosis would not work on. How strong is he relative to Yama no one knows.

    Strongest swordsman is a possibility but no one has seen his sword. It is possible that he defeated the 7th Kenpachi without a sword.

    But whether "Strongest shinigami" or "Strongest swordsman", one thing remains clear. The current Kenpachi, Zaraki Kenpachi does not deserve EITHER of those titles until he defeats Azashiro. The 9th Kenpachi was promoted because he was the second-in-command at the time. He did not prove himself worthy of the title of Kenpachi. He was just given it. The same for the 10th and subsequently the 11th, Zaraki Kenpachi.

    And it is quite obvious that he is not either the strongest shinigami or swordsman. Strongest shinigami? Self-explanatory, there's a bunch of shinigami stronger than Zaraki. Strongest swordsman? Zaraki has no skill in the art of sword-fighting. He merely swings it around wildly like a brute. No skill or technique. Give him a club or a stick and it'll be all the same. The ONE time he showed any skill whatsoever was when he used Kendo against Noitora and he was quite reluctant to do so. There are tons of people more skilled at sword-fighting than Zaraki.

    Zaraki only has 2 things going for him. Brute strength and stamina. Only other person comparable is Komamura and he's some fox/human hybrid.

    For Zaraki or any successor Kenpachi to deserve the title of Kenpachi they must defeat Azashiro. The 9th Kenpachi was a reset of the title.
     
  49. The End Heaven and Earth Burned to Ash

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    Can't wait for Kubo to announce the books are non-canon
     
  50. zlatko Collapse Sakanade

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    This is from the novel " He also mentions that both Azashiro and Zaraki were special, as everyone doesn't know the name of Zaraki's sword, but Azashiro, doesn't have a sword. In correction, he should have a Zanpakuto, however no one has ever seen it. "
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012

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