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The Juubi eyes, the Nature of Genjutsu, and the Portioning of Its Powers.

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives 2' started by HawkMan, May 12, 2010.

  1. HawkMan Active Member

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    I know, epic title right? I'm going to make it pretty short and sweet though.

    *I'm using OneManga simply because the image doesn't fuck up-not for translation purposes*
    Spoiler:
    X

    Should I bother stating the obvious about those eyes? They look like a fusion of the Rin'negan ripples and the Sharingan tomoes, no? Well, that can't be right though? Didn't Rikudou possess the Rin'negan before becoming the Juubi host? No, not necessarily-and here's why.

    The commonly held notion is that the Juubi was placed into a genjutsu to stop his raging and give Rikudou time to perform the sealing jutsu. I'm not going to speculate on the speed of the jutsu, but I don't think it took excessively long-given that Minato performed quite a bit in his last hours and with a raging Kyuubi to contend with(sure, he had a S-T jutsu that didn't hurt).

    What I am going to contend is that Rikudou never placed the Juubi under a genjutsu, and those distinct eyes are in-fact the Juubi eyes. How? It's simple-Kishi shows an entity under genjutsu(usually with a sharingan) only as a plot device, to show the readers it's under genjutsu. I don't think it's stated anywhere that it actually manifests the eyes of the caster. Regardless, if that were the case-why is it not completely Rin'negan eyes?

    It's not completely Rin'negan eyes because it was never under a genjutsu in the first place. Those are the eyes that the Juubi possessed and those are the powers that Rikudou received. Now, here's where things get dicey.....
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think Rikudou seperated the Light and Dark(yin/yang thing) side of the Juubi-only using the Light side. I think the Juubi, as an all encompassing entity, possessed the powers to create and destroy-the Rin'negan/Sharingan hybrid. Not to say that the neither can do the opposite-just that they were more suited for those purposes.

    This is also why he gave the younger son the title and not the elder-who believed in strength, because he feared he would tap into the darker side of his eye power-the sharingan. I believe his elder son did in fact tap into that power, and that is why his descendants became the Uchiha clan-a clan mired in conflict and bloodshed.
     
  2. Oishiitebayo Pie

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    Id think the Juubis eyes is a combination of the rinnegan, sharingan AND byakugan...
    since
    Byakugan = The general eye
    Sharingan = Tomoes (There are 1 for each tail, if you count the middle one as one aswell)
    Rinnegan = Lines
     
  3. seastone A hidden

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    Nice theory but how does Nagato who had a Rinnegan fit into this?
     
  4. Tobi-chan ♥ DRSNAKES♥

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    Nagato had the Rinnegan?! :wth
     
  5. Klue 輪廻

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    Just to clarify: "The Rikudou used an Illusion Camp," believe Rikudou possessed the Rinnegan and the Sharingan, the combination of which, was reflected in the Juubi's lone eye.

    Suigetsu was able to see the Sharingan coated over top of Manda's eye: X.

    That's where the theory comes from. In no way am I contesting either notion though - not enough information for me, at the moment.


    Rikudou's reincarnation, the resulting love child of a Senju and Uchiha, or something else entirely - who knows?
     
  6. PopePopo Weeeh !

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    I think it's quite obvious that he only had Rinnegan afterwards because of the image that showed his eyes after he captured the Juubi :
    Spoiler:

    X
     
  7. seastone A hidden

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    HawkMan seems to think that the Rinnegan is a power that came from being the Juubi's jinchuuriki.

    Nagato seem to have a pure rinnegan something even the elder brother lacked. Which makes the whole Rinnegan being the power of the Juubi's jinchuuriki.
     
  8. HawkMan Active Member

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    I guess what I'm intimating is that both Doujutsus come from the Juubi itself, and in an even more speculative nature- they are but two sides of the Juubi's eye power. Nagato is an enigma, it's hard to explain how he obtained the Rin'negan outside of divination(which just doesn't sit well with me since due to the polytheistic nature of the gods depicted in Naruto). The closest thing that resembles an entity that reigns supreme is the Juubi, so in some shape or form his acquisition is due to that.

    The elder son had an eye power that spiraled into a tomoe, which leads me to believe that he could draw upon both aspects. Given his world veiw though, that power was the answer to the problems ailing their world, he might have been more inclined to draw upon the darker side- the Sharingan.

    Of course, it's possible that Rikudou possessed both Doujutsus and only passed on the Sharingan or a variation of that to his son. We have even less data to support this claim though, since we've never seen him display such a doujutsu. What we do have is a Juubi with a combination of both the Rin'negan and Sharingan, and a Rikudou with only the Rin'negan present. Furthermore, the elder son who possessed his eye power has descendants who focused on the Sharingan aspect of that eye power.
     
  9. icemanlonewolf Member

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    I agree on some points, but I think both Rikudou and Nagato were simply blessed with Rinnegan. It's been said that Nagato is the reincarnation of Rikudou. If this is true then his eyes should closely match the unaltered eyes of Rikudou. Thus that would mean Rikudou had the Rinnegan before becoming a host for the Juubi.

    I always supported the idea that the Sharingan is a power that came from being the Juubi's host. This power was passed down through one of his sons, but in a dormant state. I also think a jutsu like the Byakugan might have come before the Sharingan (in a person) as Kakashi suggests early in the manga, which makes sense if the Sharingan was dormant.
     
  10. Khazzar Hand of the King

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    Rikoudo Sennin was born with Rin'negan. And he was the only one to reach the full extent of Rin'negan power.
     
  11. Sadgoob Editing Specialist

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    I always thought that the Jūbi had the Sharingan and that the ripples were a result of Rikudō Sennin's battle of wills with it. This makes sense too though.
     
  12. Oishiitebayo Pie

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    :huhAs I have stated before in the thread, what about the byakugan?
     
  13. HawkMan Active Member

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    It's so irrelevant it's not worth discussion, to be frank.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Some interesting posts, I'll comment when I have more time.
     
  14. Senjuclan Mori No Senju Ichizoku

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    Nice theory but I think Nagato invalidates it. If Nagato is the reincarnation of RS, he should have his powers without the jyuubi addition. Based on this, it is reasonable to conclude that the rikudou was born with the rinnegan. The jyuubi on the other hand, used the sharingan to cast illusions and that is why nobody could tame it. RS conquered it and got the powers of both the sharingan and the rinnegan.

    Upon having children, the elder son was born with the power of sharinnegan, a combination of both powers. This would explain why Nagato could master all the ninjutsu in the world but not does not have the same extent of control over genjutsu since this was the product of the jyuubi eyes and not the rinnegan originally. Then, the elder son consumed by hatred, relied more on the power of the sharingan and passed that unto his descendants. Over time, they lost the rinnegan but kept the sharingan.
     
  15. PopePopo Weeeh !

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    there's no evidence that Rikudou had the Rinnegan when he was born. the fact that Kishi only showed him with Rinnegan in the picture AFTER he captured the Juubi makes me think that it was Juubi power
     
  16. HawkMan Active Member

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    This certainly crossed my mind, but Madara's goals put that to rest. He aims to cast a genjutsu that he can only achieve by becoming the Juubi host. Also, the image is the exact image of the eye the Juubi showcased earlier. That can't be a coincidence.
    Spoiler:
    X

    Obviously, those eyes are that of the Juubi. The Juubi looks to have possessed both doujutsus, and it was after becoming its host that Rikudou obtained the Rin'negan-and became a living god.
    Except for the fact that Madara aims to become the Juubi host-and the illusion he seeks to cast has the same eyes as that of the Juubi when Rikudou encountered it. If it was indeed a test of will between Rikudou and the Juubi, why is the image for Mugen Tsukyomi depicted in the same manner? Isn't it reasonable to say that is indeed the eye of the Juubi, and that eye power is indeed the powers granted for becoming its host?
     
  17. Senjuclan Mori No Senju Ichizoku

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    I don't remember seeing an image of mugen tsukuyomi. Can you attach it here?
     
  18. Klue 輪廻

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  19. Senjuclan Mori No Senju Ichizoku

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    Image not found
     
  20. Klue 輪廻

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    Damn, MangaToshokan is breaking my balls. :vegetant

    Here it is anyway:


    X

    This picture apparently depicts the form of Madara's eyes after becoming the Juubi's host. This is the original sharingan Madara spoke of during his introduction.
     
  21. Godammit Active Member

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    That's not the rinnegan....
     
  22. gaiver better...

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    nice discussion. was it said somewhere that the rinnegan is a tool from the gods? for salvation or destruction?
     
  23. ZE E?E

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    I was under the impression that RS invented ninjutsu thanks to the rinengan, and since he used a ninjutsu (sealing jutsu) to defeat the Juubi, he already had the rinnengan before sealing the beast. Was he that talented that even though he was a normal human he managed to invent ninjutsu from nothing? I think it?s a little more believable if he could invent ninjutsu thanks to a dojutsu.

    The manga says that the sharingan came from the rinnengan, and what you?re doing is telling me that the sharingan came from the Juubi. The moment you accept what the manga has spelled out for you, you?ll see that the tomoes were part of the original rinnengan?s powers that later, with time, developed itself into the sharingan.

    You can read the uchiha tablet with the rinnengan, MS and the sharingan. But why would the RS, who didn?t have the MS or the sharingan, make a tablet that could be read by a sharingan and MS user when he was a rinengan user?
    The most likely scenario was that he made a tablet that only people with his own eyes (rinnengan) could read, but since the sharingan was originated from the rinnengan, it can also read what it says there, although not all of it.
     
  24. Klue 輪廻

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    That's what the myth says.

    Either it's true, or the information passed down through the generations, regarding the Rinnegan, is tied in with Rikudou's deeds.

    Just check out their Databook entries:

    X:

    It is said that in times when the world is in disorder, this person is sent down from the heavens to become either a "God of Creation" who will calm the world, or a "Destroyer" who reduce everything to nothing.​

    X:

    He was said to carry the Rinnegan, and to have been sent by Heaven during times of turmoil. Who he really was: a god of creation or destruction. ​


    Most recently, chapter 467 reveled the reason why Rikudou is considered a God, a heavenly being: He saved the world from the scourge of the Juubi.

    Maybe the Rinnegan is so exalted, and revered as the tool of heaven because the man admired as a God was in possession of it?

    Not to say the Rinnegan isn't amazingly powerful - as we all are well aware - but it's just an idea to toss around.

    -- or, it could just be the tool of heaven!
     
  25. God Is extremely merciful for the right price

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    When as argument like this is brought up it usually means you have no solid argument to follow through on.

    Well, we've seen Manda and Kyuubi Genjutsu'd and they completely manifested the eyes of the user, so your point is?

    Its is not completely Rin'negan because of either of two possibilities.

    A) The Juubi simply held a super Sharingan and that isnt a Genjutsu at all.

    B) That Rin'negan/Sharingan hybrid IS the complete Rin'negan that Rikudou possessed.

    Right, the super Sharingan is what Rikudou gained from the Juubi.

    There is no Rin'negan/Sharingan hybrid, you keep making this bullshit up. Second, the sealing Jutsu the Rikudou used is still being used today. That Jutsu doesnt separate yin/yang chakra, only Shiki-Fuujin does that.

    None of this holds any substantiated evidence in the manga.

    Ding ding ding! Winner. This is the logic I've constantly used to debate this ridiculous theory, yet it still keeps cropping back up.
     
  26. Klue 輪廻

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    What I find most odd, is Rikudou knew of the Sharingan and Mangekyou, to the point that he even shared the purpose of the later, and left the information to his descendants.

    How is it, that the eye the Juubi possessed - The Mangekyou - its purpose, is to control the Kyuubi?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  27. ZE E?E

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    You’re right. I never thought of that. He was the one who wrote that you can control the Kyuubi with the MS and that you need to kill a close friend to unlock a new power.

    Or maybe nothing of the sorts was written there. Unfortunately, we don’t know the content.

    Maybe it isn’t, it’s just that the sharingan and MS users who have read the tablet assumed that was all that was written there without knowing there was more information hidden, and to know that info, you need a rinnengan.
     
  28. EPIC raitoangelic BITCH!

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    Lovely discusson and I like the theory, though I don't completely agree with it. From what I can understand, the Rikudou Sennin was a ninja of great skill and potency but I can definitely say that his skill must have come from some superhuman source- In other words, his doujutsu, the Rinnegan. So, I truly believe that the only way we can answer this question is to understand the side effects of Bijuu powers on the Human's ability to reproduce. In other words, what would happen if a Jinchuuriki were to reproduce while his Bijuu powers still remained? So far, we can only speculate what would happen, but at this point we can't be sure of anything. Also, we have to know how long the Juubi was sealed within the Rikudou Sennin because, if my memory serves me right, it was said that the Juubi terrorized mankind before the Rikudou Sennin appeared. In addition, there is also the supposed fact that the Byakugan was the ancestor of the Sharingan, which creates a huge contradiction in the storyline. So, until Kishimoto manifests these things to us, I don't think we can truly say anything.
     
  29. Uzamaki Nagato Agent of Justice

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    Did the Juubi have the MS, I wonder?
     
  30. Klue 輪廻

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    Itachi told Sasuke to read the tablet, and he was able to decipher the purpose of the Mangekyou Sharingan:

    X.
     
  31. ZE E?E

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    See my last post. Both Itachi and Sasuke never had access to all of the content of the tablet. There is more there than controlling the kyuubi, like the Jiuubi story Madara told us.
     
  32. Klue 輪廻

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    If the Sharingan came from the Juubi, then it's only logical that the Mangekyou did as well. It originated prior to Rikudou's death, as he clearly knew about it - to the extent, that he even described its true purpose.

    So did the Juubi have the Mangekyou? Or did it just suddenly manifest within Rikudou?

    From that perspective, I believe it makes a bit more sense - or a bit easier to credit, Rikudou as the father of the Sharingan. Maybe he created the Sharingan/Mangekyou for that purpose: To control the Juubi - which easily explains his capacity to detail the Mangekyou, later on.

    I understand that, and I'm sure the rest of its content will explain things perfectly; However, at this juncture, we can only credit the Mangekyou with that sole purpose.

    My aforesaid point assumes there won't be another, however. I can admit to that.
     
  33. EPIC raitoangelic BITCH!

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    I agree, I don't think the sole purpose of the Sharingan was to just control the kyuubi. Moreover, I think what Sasuke was referrring to was simply the side effects trying to control the kyuubi. Its more than likely that the Sharingan was meant to control all of the tailed beasts.
     
  34. ZE E?E

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    The question is, how could the RS know that you have to kill someone to get the MS, or that you can control the Kyuubi with it if he didn?t have the sharingan?
     
  35. Klue 輪廻

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    Wait, you're arguing that Rikudou possessed the Sharingan originally, not the Juubi?

    I don't know either, that's what my last two post were getting at. How could he know the purpose of the Mangekyou, and the conditions to unlock it, if he didn't create it?

    Maybe the Juubi told him? :lmao
     
  36. ZE E?E

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    No, he possessed the rinnengan, and since the sharingan came from the rinnengan (manga statement), it means RS had the powers that the sharingan displays now at his disposal through the rinnegan. What I’m saying is that the tomoes that the sharingan is characterized for are not sharingan exclusive; RS even had a necklace full of them.

    So maybe, the theory that the Jiuubi was under RS’s genjutsu is the right one because RS knew exactly how to unlock the higher forms of the sharingan and what you could do with them. Meaning, the eyes that we see on the Jiuubi were the eyes RS possessed.
     
  37. Klue 輪廻

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    lol, I was being sarcastic with that final line. :lmao

    We are definitely surfing along the same wavelength. This would be my argument for Rikudou possessing the Rinnegan/Sharingan. I also have another for the Juubi being the originator - but I won't get into that now.
     
  38. seastone A hidden

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    Assuming that no Uchiha in course of history modified the stone to add new things. You know use chakra to burn information into it that can only be accessed by someone of the same power.

    Which is kind of probable IMO.

    The Sage wrote down with his rinnegan chakra the story about juubi thus can only be seen by other rinnegan users.

    MS users write down what they put it with their chakra which can only be seen by other MS users

    Sharingan users write information with chakra that be seen by other Sharingan users.

    In short it is possible that stone tablet served as a record for the Uchiha clan and its secrets.
     
  39. Dragonus Nesha Le Rouquin Super Moderator

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    Well, yes and no.
    There are three sets of three tomoes and four rings in the eye. Each set of tomoes is on one ring, and like other Sharingan, there is a ring marking the edge of the iris. However, there aren't any rings shown outside of the "iris" ring, on either the Jūbi image or the Mugen Tsukuyomi ('Infinite Tsukuyomi') image.
     
  40. Klue 輪廻

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    Never thought of that and it's a good theory - but I honestly don't see a reason to roam down that route, either.

    Madara specifically stated that they were the X; if that doesn't imply that Rikudou was the author, I don't know what will.

    [naruto=467]12[/naruto]
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2010
  41. Yagami_ Active Member

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    great post Hawkman and interesting theory you got to explain that circumstance.

    I think regardless what we can take from it, there was indeed a "Sharinnegan" hybrid super-doujutsu at some point. the only question was if it originated from Rikudou himself or the juubi. i would say, and your own theory makes a good argument that it was from Juubi originally and Rikudou gained doujutsu after becoming a jinchuuriki.

    A few of those arguing against you seem to get the impression that Juubi only had a "super Sharingan" while Rikudou just had the rinnegan, but that's completely neglecting the 3 facts that:

    1) The 2 pictures shown (one of the Juubi and one of Mugen Tsukuyomi) CLEARLY are of a Sharingan/Rinnegan hybrid
    2) It states in the direct manga that Rikudou passed down HIS OWN EYE POWER to his eldest son (obviously after becoming jinchuuriki). In fact the eldest son doesn't even have sharingan tomoe in his eyes, its a spiral design
    3) Rikudou knew about the requirements of the doujutsu at least in regards to the Sharingan which he passed down in the tablet, and the tablet is only meant to be read by Rinnegan, MS, and Sharingan. How exactly would that be possible if the doujutsu werent related?
     
  42. God Is extremely merciful for the right price

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    There never was a Sharinnegan. Why? Because the Rin'negan was used to create Jutsu to battle/seal the Juubi. Now if the Rin'negan came from the Juubi, how did Rikudou win against Juubi? Not possible.
     
  43. Klue 輪廻

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    Maybe Rikudou held the Rinnegan originally and created the Sharingan?

    The real connection between the two eyes could be explained by what Madara plans to do with the Rinnegan. The obvious answer entails a transplant, and I doubt it would be for someone other than himself or Sasuke.
     
  44. aiyanah Active Member

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    I reckon its the purest form of sharingan that hasn't been hampered by blood dilution over generations.

    If it was after becoming jinchuuriki then it could very well have been the juubi's eye power that was passed down. The design for the sons X is not as clean as RS and I doubt this was done by accident.

    3
    Wasn't the tablet written by the Uchiha ancestors? Anyway I think the rinnegan would be able to read it regardless of which doujutsu it was intended for, its just that good.
     
  45. God Is extremely merciful for the right price

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    I suppose. Then again, I doubt Madara really has anymore plans for the Rin'negan. His goal was accomplished with Nagato reading the tablet.. now his aim is the Juubi.

    Perhaps Rikudou did hold a Sharinnegan, but the thing is he was never noted for holding anything other than a Rin'negan. Still I suppose it's possible, but my real argument is against those who claim both the Rin'negan and the Sharingan comes from the Juubi, meaning Rikudou didnt have any power by himself, thus downplaying his status as THE definitive shinobi of the story.

    I mean it's clearly a canon fact that the Rikudou originated the Rin'negan, regardless of whether or not the Juubi created the Sharingan.
     
  46. Klue 輪廻

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    Very possible. Madara calls it the original Sharingan, or the Sharingan's true power, after all.

    No one can deny that.

    Spoiler: Actually
    X

    X


    No, X wrote it.

    Just in case MangaToshokan doesn't work.

    [naruto=467]12[/naruto]
     
  47. Jeefus away fighting dragons

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    Great post Hawkman,

    I always thought that panel with the combine rin/shar looked weird but never thought much about it.

    I think it's possible that the original had both, and as one brother descended into darkness, the eye evolved into the sharingan, while the other brother who didn't take that path, hand his descendants eyes evolve into what Nagato had. Makes sense to me.
     
  48. God Is extremely merciful for the right price

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    Another thing worth pointing out is that Nagato was not an Uchiha or a Senju. Yet he got the Rin'negan without even being from the same bloodline.

    Spoiler: This leads back into my earlier theory
    The Juubi's super Sharingan is separate from the Rin'negan. That is why it was passed down through generations of Uchihas, and Nagato was able to get the Rin'negan without their blood. Because what was passed down was Juubi's eyes, separate from the Rin'negan whereas the Rin'negan transmigrated to Nagato.


    Some of you are already aware of this, but disregarding that, it just shows that there are several large holes that this thread's original post fails to account for. I'm still skeptical at how accurate this is, though I guess it shouldnt be written off completely.
     
  49. aiyanah Active Member

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    fair. Sons eyes are not rinnegan. It could be the start of the sharingan's devolution to what it is now.
    I see. The sharingan being able to read it could be because the chakra's for the doujutsu's are similar. The sharingan secrets are from RS possibly studying what new powers sealing the juubi bestowed upon him. Maybe so that they could never be used again, like rules.

    so speculating right now.
     
  50. Jeefus away fighting dragons

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    Nagato could be a descendant, and just not know it due to being so far removed but still had enough blood for the genes to awaken the bloodline which was dormant.
     

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