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The Islam Debate & Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Debate Corner' started by T4R0K, Mar 18, 2007.

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  1. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    I used Muhammad for the specific reason that you guys wouldn?t even considered the possibility of him renouncing his religion. The very point was to show up your bias toward the issue. You are placing special importance on Islam and degrading paganism, when this same importance is shown in the reverse you complain.

    Lol wut?

    No, all that would have happened would be that Muhammad said that he got a revelation that Abu Lahab was pretending to be a Muslim, that he was still a pagan and that he was burning in hell. As it is a revelation from god, it must be true. Unless you think that you can doubt Muhammad on his word, and if you are going to doubt him on his word, then you would have done so already and wouldn't be a Muslim in the first place.

    Or better yet, even if this guy truly converted to Islam, god to keep this prophecy could burn him in hell because of his past crimes, EVEN THOUGH he converted to Islam.
    Can you show me where it says that if he converts to Islam he will go to heaven, and not just the assumption that if he did he would.

    I doubt what they predicted would be written down for us to read.
    But it doesn?t really matter, it is the principle that matters. The principle being that trying to establish validity based off of such an example is flawed.
     
  2. Nakamada New Member

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    First of all, I don't think I can doubt Muhammad (pbuh) on his word because I am a Muslim. I was basically trying to explain that I believe the Quran is Allah's word. The situation I described seemed logical to me... But the situation you described as well.

    I must honestly say that the situation I described might sound logical in my ears, but isn't a good one because it is like: ''If this... then that''. It's not good, at least to me, because it's basically me trying to create events that never happened by reversing certain events. I think we can go on forever like this. Anyway, it's late.. but I think I should explain my opinions/beliefs in another way..
    I don't even know when/why the question ''Who wrote/came up with the Quran'' was asked...

    I didn't say that Abu Lahab would go to heaven if he were to become a Muslim. And this goes for everyone. I don't even dare to say who will go to heaven or to hell, except the people Allah pointed out. It's Allah's choice and He will decide who goes to heaven or to hell. The only thing I said is that I believe someone is more likely to get in heaven when that person is a Muslim. It's not only about converting but the whole package (the pillars, helping the poor/the weak, etc.).

    I will come back on this later and I even made a new account because this is my sister's. My sister told me I was allowed to use her account for posting my opinion. But this can get long and it might differ too much from her views in the future.. I can't believe I made an account for this section of the forum :p Anyway, it's late, so I'm outta here.
     
  3. WT #for the watch

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    Muhammad wouldn't renounce his religion because he is certain that it is the truth where as Paganism is False, its as simple as that.

    Islam > Other Religions.

    You heard this from me in the most direct way.
     
  4. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    I'm still not getting the whole Abu Lahad thing.

    If someone who claimed to speak for God wrote down "Danny Lilithborne is going to Hell for his continued disbelief in me", I am not sure exactly what I'd stand to gain by saying "Okay, I believe in him now". It would contradict what the guy wrote down, but how necessarily would that negate the whole thing of what the guy has written? Besides, it can't be confirmed for myself until I die, and no one else will be able to confirm it until after they die if they cared to visit me in Hell or whatever.

    If Abu Lahad had converted, firstly, because of that verse, no Muslim would believe him, and none of the people who previously gave him shelter or whatever would either as they would see him as a betrayer. He had absolutely nothing to gain by going back from his previous position; even if he genuinely had a change of heart (which I don't believe), he was better off in the life he had standing by his beliefs.

    Again, I'm not sure what Muhammad had to gain from all this. To reiterate my true beliefs, I believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad and that the Qur'an was divinely inspired, but He is not my Prophet and I do not believe in Him blindly. Hell, I don't even believe in Bahá'u'lláh blindly. Not saying any of you believe in Muhammad blindly, but you give that impression. :/
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
  5. WT #for the watch

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    I know that you believe in God and believe that he is always right.

    Now imagine if God was proven wrong?

    He could have been proven wrong if Abu Lahab even pretended to accept Islam.
     
  6. maj1n Active Member

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    So essentially the story you guys are talking about is that God is proven right because Abu Dalab didn't bow down to the threat by Muhammad.

    So its a variant of

    'Your an asshole if you don't join me'
    'No'
    'Therefore you are an asshole'

    What an amazing logic.
     
  7. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    Regardless of whether anybody believes in him, the Qur'an would still have been contradicted if he converted to Islam. He still had free will after the verse was revealed. He could have genuinely believed in God like anyone else. No human could have made such a prediction with absolute certainty.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, the following is off the top of my head - I think there's another one like that in Surat Al-Baqara. At one point, God challenges the people of Moses to wish for death and reveals that they never will. They were how many? A few thousands? If just one of them wished for it, s/he would have proven the verse wrong. No enemy of Islam could've let this opportunity slip away. It's quite strange that none of them were able to do it.

    To believe, or not to believe; that is the question. :laugh
     
  8. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    ...No, not really.

    The truth is the truth regardless of what people pretend to be.
     
  9. maj1n Active Member

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    I thought it was God that said his fate was hell.

    Therefore he has no choice, his ultimate fate is hell no matter what.
     
  10. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    It does not matter what God says. The man did not turn into a machine when the verse was revealed.

    Besides, he's not the only guy whose fate is known to God. God already knows where all of us are going to end.

    Please, let's not turn that into an "OMG WE HAVE NO FREE WILL BECAUSE GOD KNOWS WHAT WE'LL DO" thread.
     
  11. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    Well, you guys brought up the verse as proof of a miracle of... some sort.
     
  12. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    I tried to explain already. If you see nothing special to it, that's fine too.

    Maybe they see it as a miracle because they already have faith. I think that if God was to split the moon now, those who have faith will see it as a miracle and those who don't would go as far as doubting their senses.

    The bottom line is: I believe you shouldn't try to rely on a miracle to acquire faith. At least I know I wouldn't. Miracles are there to strengthen one's faith, not create it. I really think that acquiring faith is a long-term process. It's not "OMG HOW DID IT HAPPEN k I believe now". That's just a theory though. :laugh
     
  13. WT #for the watch

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    Majin, I know that Abu Lahab hated Islam more than you do.

    I know at any opportunity, you would love to prove it and Allah wrong. So suppose Allah wrote in the Quran: Majin will never become Muslim.

    Wouldn't you pretend to be a Muslim just to shove it in our face?
     
  14. maj1n Active Member

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    But the story goes, as you guys claim, that God told the FATE of Abu Lahad.

    So it is impossible for him to avoid it if you presume God is all-knowing.

    In other words, it is an illogical story.

    It would be like me writing a piece of computer code to compute 1+1=2, then challenging the computer to give me another answer other then 2.

    It is a silly and meaningless challenge.

    Any religion can challenge any other person from another religion and say 'convert to my religion or else my religion is right'.

    I have a challenge for your God.

    Make this post the last post i will ever make on this forums, else your God doesn't exist.

    See how meaningless such challenges are?

    If you are truly serious and believe in the flawed logic of that Abu Lahad story, my challenge is then valid, want to see if your God really exists after this post?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  15. maj1n Active Member

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    Looks like your God didn't meet the challenge.
     
  16. WT #for the watch

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    My God doesn't need to lol ...

    Besides your Challenge is Pathetic.

    Islam at that time was rising. People would do anything from stopping this rise. Pretending to be a Muslim would have done this.
     
  17. maj1n Active Member

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    So Abu Lahab can just say he doesn't need too.

    I'm glad you agree the challenge is pathetic, it just shows how brainwashed you are that you can somehow support Islam's same challenge, but then say the exact same one from a non-Muslim is pathetic.

    Islam is on the rise? so is atheism today, since Islam rejects Atheism, why doesn't your God meet the challenge?

    exactly the same situation, reversed, but you don't like it now.
     
  18. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    So therefore,
    If this guy had pretended to convert, he would have still gone to hell.
    and
    If this guy actually converted, he could still be sent to hell for previous crimes.

    In which case, this entire argument is invalid. Because him pretending to convert, or converting didn't lead to him not going to hell. Therefore he couldn't make god wrong by converting.

    Which is why your arguments always fail, because they are always based on your double standard that your religion is greater. When you look at it objectively your arguments fall apart.

    No, it wouldn't prove god wrong.
    If Abu Lahab was pretended to convert to Islam he still would have gone to hell. Even if he converted in earnest, there is still nothing to stop god sending him to hell.

    No, it wouldn't have to be. As him converting doesn't guarantee that he would go to heaven.
     
  19. WT #for the watch

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    The Challenge is not the same. The Challenge was given by God himself and thus, Abu Lahab failed it. The Challenge wasn't given by Muhammad. Even if it was, he is still a prophet level person, much higher than your average people like me or you. You giving a challenge is not the same as God giving a challenge.

    Because he doesn't need to. Regardless of what you believe, he still exists and time does not effect him. He will give your chance to repent on this earth and when the time comes, you will be either punished or rewarded.
     
  20. Zaru ________________________________ Advisor

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    Assume I get hit by a train tomorrow

    Did I get my chance to repent?
     
  21. WT #for the watch

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    Yes you have.
     
  22. Zaru ________________________________ Advisor

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    What if I instead barely survived the train accident and start to truly believe in god right afterwards? He never gave me the chance to do so :edu
     
  23. guenouni Member

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    A necessary clarification:
    Surat Al-Masadd was the 6th Surat (1) to be revealed (There are 114 Surat in Quran). It happened 10 years before the Battle of Badr (2). At that time, there were only a few Muslims, most of them were poor. This was a great chance for Abu Lahab to stop Islam from spreading at an early age.
    Abu Lahab was well known (3) for always saying the opposite of what Muhammad said. He used to wait until Muhammad finishes talking with a group. Then ask them: "What did Muhammad say?". "If he said white, then it's black. If he said night, then it's day" ...

    (1) X
    (2) The expansion of Islam began after the X.
    (3) X
     
  24. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    No, they are not.

    If miracles strengthen your faith, then you don't really have faith at all. Believing that someone has power beyond their mortal frame does not equate to faith in God.

    Most of the time, when a Manifestation comes, the people who believed in the last Manifestation demand signs to "soothe their hearts" before they will believe. That's why Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The existence of Moses and the evidence of His works themselves were supposed to be sufficient unto themselves if people would truly claim to believe; otherwise, even if a man made people rise from the dead, it wouldn't make a difference.

    Jesus healed the sick, but that in and of itself was no miracle; it was simply Jesus redeeming the sins of the Jewish people who came before Him. Muhammad wrote the Qur'an, but that wasn't a miracle either; it was merely Him doing His best to preserve what He saw as the Word of God. I can go on, but these two examples and the parable are sufficient to demonstrate my point.

    To wit: miracles prove nothing, and if you need a miracle to have faith, as far as I'm concerned you will never have it.
     
  25. maj1n Active Member

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    So wait lemme get this straight.

    God gave a challenge to a mortal, and that mortal failed, this is significant how?

    What i'd like to know is why your God is so immature as to challenge a mortal human, that would be like me challenging a baby, or perhaps challenging sperm.

    Abu Lahad didn't fail the challenge, there is no challenge.

    If God states your fate is hell, you cannot avoid it, if God challenges you to try and avoid it, he is being a stupid idiot

    And Abu Lahab (according to you) didn't believe in Islam, so why does he have to try and meet a challenge from an imaginary God from his perspective.

    It is fucking amazing you cannot see that you are basically in Abu Lahab's shoes.

    Agreed, if one requires miracles to strengthen ones faith, one is actually searching for evidence to validate one's faith, hence he has no real faith.
     
  26. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    That's what I said.
     
  27. Adonis Logical Positivist Nazi

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    The idea that faith can be "strengthened" is asinine.

    Faith is a binary concept: you either have it or you don't. The second you start requiring evidence, as a miracle can be considered, is the second it ceases to be faith.
     
  28. Deimos Divine Darkness

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    I don't agree. I'm going to quote Hugiboo because he's already clarified this.

    Simply put, what you're referring to is belief, not faith. You can read more on that X.

    Of course, it depends on the definition you choose for faith, but I think it's more appropriate to understand it here as trust. Perhaps this wasn't clear in my posts because I was slightly confused myself (ie. using the verb believe when I should have used trust). In the end though, my theory boiled down to the fact that faith in God is something you acquire gradually. You learn to trust Him as life goes on.
     
  29. maj1n Active Member

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    How do you trust God for which there is no evidence of?
     
  30. Spirit Active Member

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    Seriously?. Are you really....REALLY that stupid maj1n?

    If you have established an evidence, it will no longer be a matter of faith. You wouldn't have faith in God's existence, you will have knowledge in God's existence instead. With faith, the belief in God is not justified, it need not be justified. If you or God or whoever requires proofs, evidents, justifications, you are demanding knowledge, not faith.

    To trust Santa to deliver me present every Christmas, ALL I need is faith in him, for the idea of it's NON-existence will not support the idea that he can, at all deliver me anything. But I believe in Santa and that suffices. Whether he actually exists or not, whether he delivers or not, whether I made a stupid decision to trust him to do so or not, is of another question.

    The point is that the bare minimum to have trust in whatever, is faith. To justify that trust, now that asks for something else. But you have to ask, that's how you put trust in a being that has no evidence of its existence.
     
  31. maj1n Active Member

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    Deimos is not using the definition of faith as 'belief without evidence'.

    As he stated.

    The 'Faith' he is using is a confidance/trust in someone else.

    So what i am asking is how do you gradually acquire this trust for an entity for which there is no evidence of?

    It is implied Deimos in fact looks for evidence.

     
  32. Al-Yasa ⎷⎛⎝⎠⊙⏝⏝⊙⎝⎠⎷⎛

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    everyone has a diffrent opinion on faith
     
  33. Outlandish Active Member

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    The thing you gotta love about Islam the only apostates are the people who are muslim by passport and never really practiced. You never get high scholars or proper practicing muslims apostate.. but high pastors educational elite hindu's sikhs and people from all denominations are reverting that's the beauty of the Quran.
     
  34. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    No, your wrong.

    Here is an example.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBY5VbC6rvU&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

    You are perpetrating a fallacy, and a bad one at that.
     
  35. SogeQueen Member

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    This post really angers me. I was a Muslim up until a year ago. I prayed, fasted, read the Quran, etc. I didn't commit any major sins and made an effort to be a good practising Muslimah. It annoys me that some Muslims have the attitude that people who were religious Muslims can't lose their faith and have legitimate reasons for becoming apostates. It happens and generally it's difficult for those people who do leave Islam to be open about it because of how severely taboo it is in Muslim cultures.
     
  36. Outlandish Active Member

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    If you really sincerely prayed fasted etc you would never leave Islam.. didn't commit any major sins it was probably because of culture.

    I'm watching that video SP.

    Well if a few actions of extremist made him question his faith it wasn't very strong in the first place.
     
  37. sadated_peon King of the potato people.

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    A few actions of a extremist didn't make him lose his faith. If you watch the video you will see...


    you know what never mind, your just going to continue your BS fallacy no matter what I say. You will just make up some idiotic argument to try and say he wasn't a "true" Muslims.

    Your argument here is based on a denial and a fallacy, and anyone with half a brain can see it for what it is.
     
  38. SogeQueen Member

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    I hadn't missed a single fast since I was 9 (except of course during that week :redface) and I prayed 5 times a day. I don't understand why that is so hard to believe. Making an effort to not commit major sins did have a lot to do with my conservative upbringing, but it also had to do with fearing Allah and his punishment.
     
  39. maj1n Active Member

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    Outlandish, do you know what you show? you show far more concern over your religions legitimacy then peoples lives.

    It is this disturbing mindset that gives rise to terrorist Muslims, that allows muslims to beat their wives, and to kill apostates.

    Your reaction to the youtube posted by SP and your reaction to sogequeen perfectly emphasises this, you will make any arbitrary bullshit insult to downplay their prior faith in Islam because you feel them leaving it is a threat to the legitimacy of your religion.
     
  40. guenouni Member

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    If they disbelieve, then verily, Allah stands not in need of any of all that exists.
    "الله غني عن العالمين"
     
  41. Danny Lilithborne 我を愛する修羅

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    "No true Muslim" rears its ugly head yet again.
     
  42. WT #for the watch

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    Rate of Conversion to Islam >>>>>>>>>>> Rate of Apostation.

    The thing with new Muslims is that they realize what true Islam is, whereas we ordinary ones take it for granted. The beautiful thing is, they spread it really fast. For example, a brother converted to Islam and within a week, he himself converted his whole family (his 7 Brothers and 5 Sisters (quite a lot of half brothers/sisters) and about 3 or 4 friends. Now, these 3 or 4 friends themselves converted quite a few people, its a magnificent chain reaction and InshAllah, this will become greater and may Islam spread like the wind.
     
  43. perman07 Per ler mer

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    And how big is this conversion rate among native-born western people though? I don't know of a single person close to me who has been converted to Islam despite there being a lot of Pakistanis where I live.

    And is this an argument for anything? You could probably show similar spread-patterns for drugs. If drugs allure lots of people, does that mean those drugs are positive?

    If a religion was truly loving, truly believed in treating everybody equal (as Islam does not do with women or apostates), then it would have some appeal to me. Though as an atheist, I must admit, this is hardly enough for me, but it would be a good, fresh start for a religion unlike the big monotheistic religions that I find judgemental and appalling.
     
  44. WT #for the watch

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    The converts I am talking about are Native born western people. The fact that you have not observed any does not mean they do not exist, heck, you haven't even made an effort to observe any and are so boldly passing a judgment over this issue. How ignorant.

    Please elaborate on this example and explain to me how this was related to what I had posted.

    That is a very generalized statement and you probably have done no effort on your own behalf to explore this issue without bias. There is a misconception between the treatment of women by Muslims and the treatment of women by Islam. It is the latter that I advise you to re search yourself.
     
  45. maj1n Active Member

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    What is this misconception?

    i am prepared to debate about the quranic verses that talk of sanctioning beating of women, or the hadith of Muhammad stating women are inferior in intelligence.

    Can you provide these accurate statistics? i am especially interested in how you got 'rate of apostation'.
     
  46. Ƶero BAMFlash

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    Actually there's even some apostate videos that are even faked...

    The lengths people go to fight against Islam :lmao.
    In the end you will lose, I guarantee it. ;)
     
  47. maj1n Active Member

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    So to you its a war.

    Ok, thanks for clarifying.
     
  48. Ƶero BAMFlash

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    lol, maj1n, I knew you were replying to me :lmao.

    War ? lol.....no srsly :ryoma

    oh wow, maj1n you crack me up :lmao.
     
  49. Elim Rawne 33

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    The same goes for the other way 'round too.What's your point?
     
  50. Ƶero BAMFlash

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    Really ???
    show me ones that are fake, then compare them to the ones that aren't fake and same for conversions to islam and then fake ones.

    I strongly guarantee you will fail...miserably.
    Bring it on.
     
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