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The difference between "Enton" and "Enton: Kagu-tsuchi"

Discussion in 'Konoha Library' started by BlinkST, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Summers look at my sig

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    Never caught that.

    Anyway good post SaST and blinxST, you guys are the experts on this. Both sound like they could be correct to me.
     
  2. DonutKid Well-Known Member

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    what i meant was, does amaterasu travels at the speed of light in theory?

    i suppose itachi turned off amaterasu, because the flames should engulf sasuke completely it he didn't turn off. also, zetsu was on the battlefield, witnessing the battle. i'm pretty sure he can analyse the battle better than us. :laugh

    but then again, with sasuke's words and the focus on his right eye, i guess we can't be completely sure. :hmm
     
  3. Rift Member

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    You've mixed this up.


    That kanji [炎] is rather represented as a ''noun'', you're using it as a verb.


    (En) 'blaze' more specifically means 'inflamation', the literal depiction of Enton under the umbrella of Amaterasu(Coke flames) as a release is better romanized as kokuen; which could mean:

    >Dark flames
    >Charred fire
    >Dark blaze
    >Black energy


    Take your pick.

    That said, Ballistics trajectory are fundamentally simple. The manner in which that flame pouched into gaara's sand, indicated it was trailing as factual, but you've sliced that out and conjectured it as the be-all, end-all....as per your dictionary connotation/usage of the term ''blaze'' which,again is meant to be taken as a ''Noun'' and not a ''verb''

    Look again into this because you're bouncing ideas off a misnomer.




    Enton:Kagutsuchi cannot be the resultant configuration of flames.

    The quelling of Amaterasu during the Hachibi tussle was sasuke's first instance of using kagutsuchi.

    However, his first mention of the name against Raikage was meant as an official debut of the Shinto≈ Kagutsuchi, as evidenced by protrusions from the surface of flames, suggesting a symbollic mirror of volcanoes that became.



    You're not entirely wrong. While Enton should not be regarded as a result of Sasuke performing Chakra alchemy,

    Being mindful that Uchihas are the top dogs of fire release, a modus operandii through which the Rinnengan grants potential mastery over 5 major elements, is the same manner Sasuke and itachi's mangekyo begets the ability to rework their potent Chakra into the frontier of the clan's affinity. Hence, amaterasu→enton.

    That's not to say Seishitsu Henka was the basis of this in the technical aspect of an already transformed Nature responsible for the basic katon Ninjutsu .



    Even though sasuke/itachi's tengu susanoo clearly manifested with different mangekyo assortments?
     
  4. jacamo Kekkei Genkai Sama

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    Blinx is just flat-out wrong... this is what it should be:

    Amaterasu: the ability to create the black flame
    Enton: Kagu-tsuchi: the ability to shape the black flame
    Enton: the black flame itself, its just a name

    its been proven time and time again that Sasuke's right MS is Enton: Kagutsuchi, at the Bee fight then at the Kage Summit and most recently in the Kabuto fight... yet OP keeps making these needlessly complicated explanations, all for the sake of Sasuke having Tsukiyomi

    Kishi isnt going to name Sasuke's eye technique after the frikin Shinto God of Fire KAGUTSUCHI for shits and giggles if its not an MS jutsu

    additionally, Shisui and Obito are case studies which showed us that not all Uchiha follow Itachi's pattern of Ama->Tsu->Sus as they have completely different MS jutsu... if anything it implies most Uchiha dont follow Itachi's jutsu pattern at all

    sorry to rant :giogio


    PS... most of you are also neglecting Kagutsuchi's most defining trait - it has given Sasuke the ability to wield the Enton flames without the need for eye contact.... Itachi always had to look at the target when using Amaterasu
     
  5. Kanae wants more Annie.

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    Pretty much.

    Chapter 415 being called "A new power" and Sasuke's lines at the end are evident enough, but Kishi also took care to distinguish from which eye came which power. You can see Sasuke cast his Amaterasu from his left eye (http://www.likenaruto.com/manga/naruto/415/), which he then covers with his hand out of pain (http://www.likenaruto.com/manga/Naruto/415/3/). Then, when Karin is caught by the flames, you see Sasuke's right sharingan (http://www.likenaruto.com/manga/Naruto/415/6/) going Mangekyo-mode with SFX included; and lastly, after extinguishing the flames, Sasuke is covering his right eye (http://www.likenaruto.com/manga/Naruto/415/7/) out of pain - so the flame-shape-shifting did indeed come out of that eye.
     
  6. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    Also, allusions start to be made in that very chapter that, after awakening that particular ocular power, he had begun to approach the point of manifesting his Susanoo.
     
  7. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    It can't be Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. Small reminder, the very first thing Sasuke did with his Mangekyo Sharingan, was cast genjutsu on the cloud shinobi.


    His eyes got stronger. Sounds familiar?


    The second thing, was cast Amaterasu, which fulfilled the requirement to awaken Susanoo. And he headed off to the Gokage summit to try out Susanoo before Enton: Kagu-tsuchi ever even came into the picture. That was the end of it.

    Really, you guys come up with some of the most bizarre reasoning. All of a sudden, Enton: Kagu-tsuchi is some kind of blanket term that refers to shaping the flames and removing them? I'm pretty much never going to accept any of that until there's some proper corroboration. Provide proper evidence and reasoning outside of your mere opinion or accept it for the bunk it really is.
     
  8. jacamo Kekkei Genkai Sama

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    there has been proper evidence... you just refuse to accept it

    like in the Ei fight - Sasuke overused his left eye and actually covers it with his hand as he casts Enton: Kagutsuchi from his right eye.... blatant proof :nuts

    this isnt the first time you have come up with needlessly convoluted explanations and it wont be the last... no one understands your explanations and 99% of us agree that Sasuke has Kagutsuchi and NOT Tsukiyomi

    again, Kishi isnt going to name Sasuke's eye technique after the frikin Shinto God of Fire KAGUTSUCHI for shits and giggles if its not an MS jutsu.... this is just basic logic
     
  9. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    Actually, I believe the majority still think that Tsukuyomi was the ocular power of Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan.

    But as more chapters pass without any of the Genjutsu cast from Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan being identified as Tsukuyomi, and more exposition of Kagutsuchi, more people are starting to see what's been obvious to us. :LOS
     
  10. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    He's not "casting" Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. He's using his ocular power to modify the flames, which resulted in what he decided to call Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. That's like saying "Rasengan" is the ability to make chakra spin into a sphere, rather than the result of manipulating the chakra in that manner. Applying shape manipulation does not constitute a jutsu in of itself.
     
  11. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    It does when it's the only means of applying Keitai Henka to the flames. Why do you think C was making such a big deal out of it at the Kage Summit?

    Why do you think Sasuke would name that specific application of Enton manipulation after the Shinto God of Fire, sibling to the trio of deities that Itachi's ocular powers are named after, instead of the power that allows it?

    Kagutsuchi is that ocular power, bro.
     
  12. jacamo Kekkei Genkai Sama

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    there is proof everywhere


    Kagutsuchi's ability IS to modify and shape the flames... the ability to apply shape manipulation IS the jutsu itself

    jesus christ :haha

    Kishi wouldnt name it after a Shinto God if it wasnt an MS jutsu
     
  13. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    Again, Rasengan example. Applying shape manipulation to chakra is not a jutsu in of itself, not was Enton: Kagu-tsuchi even described in that manner, or referred to in that manner. It's not a blanket term.

    Not sure where that rule came from. Izanagi and Izanami aren't Mangekyo jutsu. Kamui doesn't have anything to do with Shinto, either. Kishimoto can call it whatever he wants.
     
  14. jacamo Kekkei Genkai Sama

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    Blinx youre in crazy denial bro, making things needlessly convoluted just for the sake of Sasuke having Tsukiyomi and so you dont have to admit you were wrong.... i was wrong about Obito, so what? its ok to be wrong

    IT... CAME... OUT... OF... HIS... RIGHT... EYE...
    this is all the evidence i need, twist it however you want youre still wrong


    i agree with dat SaiST :datass that is all, good day
     
  15. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    Nothing came "out" of his right eye. If the word "Kagu-tsuchi" is preceded by the term "Enton", then it means "Kagu-tsuchi" is part of the "Enton" family. It's a derivative. A result. It's not called "Kagu-tsuchi". It's called Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. The same would go for "Youton: Youkai no Jutsu", for example. "Enton: Kagu-tsuchi" can't be the ability to create the jutsu and the jutsu at the same time. That lofty logic simply doesn't work elsewhere no matter how much you prop it up.
     
  16. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    It is preceded by Enton because that's what Amaterasu's all about: the creation of that Nature Release, purely Seishitsu Henka.
     
  17. jacamo Kekkei Genkai Sama

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    so now youre going with word play.... how very sexy

    but not as sexy as you my friend :tomaflirt
     
  18. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    No, that's what happens when you throw out terms like "logic" and "obvious" without securing your lofty tower. Let's summarize:





    When you see those names, you understand that there is a family of jutsu, because the element precedes the name of the jutsu. You don't tell yourself Suiton: Suikoudan no Jutsu is the ability to apply shape manipulation to Suiton, because that would be a pretty stupid thing to assume.

    What you're basically saying is, Enton: Kagu-tsuchi is the ability to add shape manipulation to Amaterasu, and the result of that manipulation is also called Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. Really, that's no more baseless than the aforementioned example of the Suiton. Saying you think Kishimoto wanted you to think it's some kind of built-in Mangekyo Ocular jutsu is already baseless when you account for the naming scheme. If he wanted you to think it was a Mangekyo jutsu, he would have simply named it Kagu-tsuchi and never bothered attaching Enton to it. But the fact that he named it Enton: Kagu-tsuchi already tells you that Kagu-tsuchi is supposed to be part of a group of jutsu, and it can't be a catalyst. It's just a result. The preceding name means it was birthed from something, rather than it being the birther. Welcome back to logical thinking.


    But when all else fails, please do kiss more ass:maybe
     
  19. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    Blinx, have we seen any other methods of applying Keitai Henka to Amaterasu's flames?

    By using the naming scheme of Nature Release Ninjutsu in your attempt to denounce Enton: Kagutsuchi as the ocular power of Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan, you're inadvertently defying the definition of "Enton" you presented in your opening post.

    You agree that the "Nature Release" depicts the actual element—the recomposed chakra that is used for subsequent technique(s), not the ability to manipulate it as you described Enton before. What is so jarring about the concept of Amaterasu being the catalyst of this "Enton"–the act of Seishitsu Henka to create it–and any manipulation applied to it being represented as Kagutsuchi?

    Forgot about this:

    Most likely not.

    No—certainly not. :oh

    If Amaterasu cast it's Enton that fast, A wouldn't have been able to dodge it. Nor would the poor Samurai that was struck by the flames in A's place been able to take some kind of notice of their approach the moment before they made contact.

    Amaterasu is nigh-unavoidable due to the speed in which it's flames make contact with the caster's focal point, but it's not absolute.

    Right. As I said, that would have to be the case for things to stay consistent. But due to the manner in which the Juuin, and Orochimaru-style Kawarimi function, it's possible that a portion of the Kawarimi was somehow detached to prevent the flames from consuming the upper half; this is what I was trying to suggest earlier.

    What Sasuke did to accomplish this could have been completely within Itachi's expectations, as he was aware of this technique's capabilities, and had no intention to kill his little brother... Thus, again, it cannot be said for certain that Itachi "extinguished" the flames of Amaterasu as Sasuke has done with the ocular power of his right Mangekyou Sharingan.

    It simply wouldn't make sense for Sasuke to be making such a big deal out of it, questioning if it was his ocular power, had that been the case.

    I'm not contesting what Zetsu said, but rather clarifying it. He did not claim that Amaterasu's flames were "extinguished" for Itachi to preserve Sasuke's eyes, but that Itachi stopped using the technique, and was proceeding to go for Sasuke's eyes.
     
  20. grinninggrizzly This is BAD NEWS!!

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    Great read blink but i disagree with the gist of it. How exactly is enton: kagutsuchi not an enton? You can't just dismiss the core nomenclature of jutsu in this manga so casually. Enton is not simply 'blaze' as you would have it, it's blaze release - a far more superior fire release. I need not point out the consistence nor the etymology with regards to other elements.

    I'm of the opinion that the 2nd power usually involves mastery or unparalleled control of some sort. And i believe this applies to all uchiha
     
  21. AoshiKun うちはサスケ

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    After Kabuto fight it's confirmed that Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi.
    While Itachi used Tsukuyomi to free his brother Sasuke used a generic "Sharingan Genjutsu".

    I'm sure if Sasuke had it, Kishimoto would point that with a big Tsukuyomi write in the panel. It also seems that he didn't inherit that jutsu from his brother's eyes.
     
  22. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    Because the term does not refer to an elemental change. It's still a Katon. There's no literal Enton.

    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:S...ions#Tensha_F.C5.ABin:_Amaterasu_.28p._289.29 (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:ShounenSuki/Third_Databook_Translations#Tensha_F.C5.ABin:_Amaterasu_.28p._289.29)

    There are 3 ways to create the flames.

    1] Amaterasu
    2] Enton
    3] Susanoo

    The first way, is igniting the flames at your focal point, which causes the eye to bleed.


    The third way, is through Susanoo, which doesn't cause the eye to bleed.


    The second way, is modifying an existing flame to birth new flames, without having to repeatedly cast the jutsu Amaterasu. Which is quicker? Repeatedly casting Amaterasu, or using one flame to fire several flames. That's Enton as far as what I can tell.


    All that really shows is that Itachi is over-protective, and that genjutsu was not actually needed to achieve what was necessary. Unless we are to believe Generic genjutsu = Tsukuyomi



    I suppose lack of the term "Tsukuyomi" means Itachi was not using Tsukuyomi at the time.
     
  23. IpHr0z3nI Active Member

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    Pardon me, but I'm not understanding your argument. Are you suggesting Sasuke has Tsukuyomi but no access to the S/T aspect property of it?

    If such is your argument, you do know the only thing that distinguishes them currently is the S/T aspect?

    Sharingan genjutsu is the only none MS portion of the Uchiha arsenal which has improved with power scaling, and the difference between the big boys of the MS genjutsu world: Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami is it's ST aspect and ability to manipulate a shinobi without the victim being aware.

    As we've seen sharingan genjutsu show case events, paralyze, knockout, manipulate shinobi's/none shinobi's, etc. etc....

    There is little use in Sasuke having access to a Tsukuyomi without the S/T aspect, it'd be equivalent to the generic sharingan genjutsu.
     
  24. Sarry The guy sniping you out!

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    Great thread, but i disagree with the Tsukyomi part.
    That jutsu is specifc to Itachi alone, since it showcased his ability with Genjutsu. It was the strongest and more fatal jutsu Itachi could. Similar to how Shisui had Koto to himself, and it was not seen in any other Uchiha.

    Sasuke is not as able in Genjutsu as Itachi, and logically should not get Tsukyuomi. Sasuke does have his own Genjutsu, but it is not as potent as Itachi's due to their base skill.
     
  25. Dolohov27 Incinerated

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    This page pretty much proves that Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi.
    http://www.[Blocked Domain]/naruto/585/12 Let it go dawg its over.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
  26. shintebukuro Active Member

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    Let me suggest my angle:

    If you've ever read Inuyasha, you'll know that at the end of the series he is given this technique called "Meidou Zangetsuha" which creates a big sphere of darkness (from his sword) that encompasses the enemy and sends them to the afterlife. Eventually he is able to use it to its true strength, which consists of the same darkness that will kill you if you touch it, but this time it's in the shape of blades rather than a sphere.

    And the rationale for that was "A sword's true purpose is to cut."

    I believe Enton: Kagutsuchi follows that same pattern. It is the ability to control the flames of Amaterasu specifically into blades, which is fitting because this ability's primary purpose is to attack the enemy. Flames that can cut as well as burn really reflect its offensive purpose much better.

    Overall, Sasuke's right Mangekyou has the ability to control the flames of Amaterasu, but his "official" MS technique name is "Enton: Kagutsuchi" because it is the strongest form that the flames could ever be manifested into. It's given a Shinto God name to let us know it's the MS ability of that eye, but it's also preceded by "Enton:" so that we know it's a manipulation of an element (similar to Goukakyuu) and not its own separate thing.


    TLDR; Enton: Kagutsuchi is Sasuke's official right MS ability, and that's because the eye has the ability to control black flames and Kagutsuchi is the pinnacle of Sasuke's ability to do so (making them into blades -- an even more aggressive and offensive form).
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  27. Godaime Kazekage Praise Minato!

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    I liked the entire OP until I got to the end. Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi. Give it up.
     
  28. Donquixote Doflamingo Master Puppeteer

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    I don't like that Enton comes from his other eye its a pretty underwhelming thing overall in my opinion.

    The left eye makes the greatest Flames, all the right eye does is let you manipulate it better Lame. I would much rather it be a Genjutsu or something entirely different.
     
  29. Godaime Kazekage Praise Minato!

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    Itachi is the only MS user that has shown radically different MS Jutsu. All the others have Jutsu that complement one another. Of course, we don't know of Izuna or Madara, but odds are that they follow the same pattern.
     
  30. BlinkST Never too l8 for Rinne h8

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    Nope.

    10 char

    Indeed. Itachi has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Shisui has Koto'Amatsukami. Obito has Kamui. Sasuke has Amaterasu and.. The power to modify the fire? Out of those 4 people, Sasuke is the only one who has a worthless eye.

    With Itachi, you can get a strong ninjutsu or a strong genjutsu. With Shisui, it's a genjutsu. With Obito, it's a ninjutsu. Sasuke would be the only person who doesn't follow that convention. He'd be the only person who has an ocular jutsu that's dependant on another. That means unlike those 3 people, Sasuke's right eye is useless? Why? Because you still need the left eye to create the flames. Your right eye can't modify flames that don't exist.

    Let's think for a moment about how reasonable the proposition is of suh a break in convention. Because if this thread is any indication, there are actually people who made sense of that.
     

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