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Shouldn't Jiraiya be stronger than Itachi?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library' started by Inferno, Oct 2, 2012.

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  1. Inferno .

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    Or at least on the same tier and/or position, considering his hype through Pain? I know A>B>C doesn't necessarily work, but here, Pain is stated to be the strongest Akatsuki member (stronger than Itachi and Sharingan Obito) at the bottom of the panel, directly by Kishi:
    Spoiler:
    X


    And Pain straight up says, here, that if Jiraiya knew at the start what he learned about Pain as he died, that he would have most likely defeated Pain, the, as said by Kishi, strongest Akatsuki member (stronger than Itachi):
    Spoiler:
    X


    So even if A>B>C logic, doesn't work, if Jiraiya > Pain, Pain > Itachi, and (presumably, based on the general consensus here) Itachi > Jiraiya, shouldn't Itachi and Jiriaya be on similar tiers, against what many Itachi wankers debaters argued for in the tier thread? And this is ignoring Kishi's message he sent us through Itachi (about both Jiraiya and Itachi dying if they fought), which was passed off was "a lie or excuse" by Itachi wankers supporters.​
     
  2. SuperSaiyaMan12 The Seventh Hokage's arrived.

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    Itachi even said the best he could do against Jiraiya is a stalemate. So they are on the same tier. They were even given the same stat totals in the databook and Kishimoto elaborated that Jiraiya's boast in which he could have killed both Itachi and Kisame at the same time wasn't unfounded.
     
  3. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    Kishimoto didn't write that, it was an editor but I do think its clear Nagato is the strongest akatsuki member. Jiraiya isn't close in strength to Pain, hardly anyone is.

    I do think Jiraiya and Itachi are comparable though and will think so until the part I statement is refuted.
     
  4. eyeknockout fear me, fodder

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    jiraiya > itachi?

    X
     
  5. Inferno .

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    Pain himself admitted that, if Jiraiya knew that each path was a remote-controlled dead body (intel SM Naruto, who still lost, had), he would have lost. And how do you know an editor wrote that? And either way, it must have gone through Kishi first. :LOS

    Pain's words > your opinion. :LOS

    >looks at your sig
    >:giogio
     
  6. LostSelf Forest Sage

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    The problem comes when Pain said that but feats clearly puts Pain above Jiraiya and puts Nagato way higher yet.
     
  7. Inferno .

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    SM Naruto's feats aren't really on par with Pain's, but he gave him a fight.

    This is similar to the Edo Madara vs Hashirama debate. Madara himself says that Hashirama can beat him, but people deny it.

    I'll take Pain's/Kishi's words over other's. :LOS
     
  8. KyuubiYondaime Heisenberg

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    Not another Itachi vs Jiraiya :facepalm

    The reason Sage Kabuto stood a chance againts Itachi was cause Kishi made him conveniently immune to Genjutsu by being able to block his cornea; something Jiraiya cannot do.

    Therefore, Tsukuyomi GG.
     
  9. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    The editor writes those side comments, not Kishi.

    Its unclear what Pain was talking about. He could have been talking about if Jiraiya knew where to find his immobilized body he wouldn't have won or he could've been referring to if he knew each paths ability. Either way Jiraiya still isn't superior, these factors are part of Pain's strength.

    Then we saw Pain destroy a village and easily defeat a superior version of Jiraiya after exhausting himself.

    Its beyond clear Jiraiya is weaker than Pain.
     
  10. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    What's meant is that if Jiraiya knew other bodies had been summoned, he could've caught them all with genjutsu. Bare in mind, they were in Amegakure so Pain couldn't destroy his own village. That's not to say Jiraiya and Itachi can't be on the same tier — they should be, in my opinion.
     
  11. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    You need to be in range to use Tsukuyomi and its less effective against an opponent who uses bunshins. Itachi cannot use MS techniques as quickly as he did as an edo, one shot of Tsukuyomi will weaken him. I believe one on one Itachi would beat Jiraiya, but it isn't a simple battle by any means.
     
  12. KyuubiYondaime Heisenberg

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    Itachi showed that Sages aren't immune to Genjutsu.

    Itachi showed speeds to get behind Killer Bee, and was able to cast Genjutsu on him, despite his previous Sharingan Genjutsu knowledge.

    Jiraiya took absolutely no precautions to counter off Itachi's Genjutsu; infact, he didn't even seem like he was even gonna try Sage Mode againts Itachi AND Kisame. If its just Itachi, he would have taken him lightly, and he would have met his end very quickly right then and there.

    I hate to do this, but Tsukuyomi GG.
     
  13. Inferno .

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    If Jiraiya decided to head for Nagato, I'm sure Pain would be sent after him, and, according to Pain, Jiraiya would end up winning.

    We can't always judge based off of feats alone. Sometimes, we have to take in manga statements and portrayal too. And everything you mentioned above is intel Naruto had, and yet he still lost. But Pain was pretty sure that Jiraiya would win with the same intel, and without Katsuyu.

    And people saying "Tsukuyomi GG" are people who base this completely off of feats. Try interpreting and understanding manga statements a little more. :facepalm
     
  14. LostSelf Forest Sage

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    Naruto didn't give Pain a fight. Deva Path stomped him once he recovered his powers and could've killed him in more than one ocassion.

    That was, after fighting a whole village by himself. That Naruto was not near Pain.
     
  15. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    In what context though? Its completely unclear what knowledge he's talking about, and then we saw a superior Jiraiya with knowledge lose to an exhausted Pain.

    I base nearly everything off statements. If you do as well you'll realize you've made a large blunder, Naruto was twice stated to be stronger than Jiraiya, he had intel, he lost badly to a depleted Pain, therefore Jiraiya would too.

    Thats a direct power statement, Pain's comment is an unclear hype statement.
     
  16. KyuubiYondaime Heisenberg

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    I'm pretty sure Pain was referring that if Jiraiya knew there were 6, he'd have saved Frog Song for all Six.

    But Jiraiya needed knowledge for that, which he didn't have.

    If Pain had knowledge though, Pain would have prevented Frog song like he did againts Naruto, and would have end up stomping.

    Naruto was stated to be above Minato or atleast Jiraiya in this arc, one or both which are stronger than Jiraiya.

    And Pain contradicted his statement by saying Naruto was the most troublesome opponent he had ever faced. Considering Naruto had Frog song too, Naruto was above Jiraiya by Fukasaku's and Pain's statements, and his performance, and yet, once Deva Path's powers arrived, Naruto was defeated, and without even counting Chibaku Tensei or Chou Shinra Tensei.

    So try to use the whole context of that arc, and all the statements, and not just one, which was more or less recotned.
     
  17. Inferno .

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    But Naruto had all the intel possible on Pain, and lost. Whereas Jiraiya, if he was given at least a part of that intel, was said to probably have won against the same person. How am I supposed to interpret this (serious question)? :geg
     
  18. shintebukuro Active Member

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    You don't understand Pain's words.

    The statement was essentially referring to the genjutsu that Fukasaku/Shima cast. Had Pain spilled the beans about his true identity before the genjutsu, he still would've gotten caught in it (due to underestimating Jiraiya and using only half his bodies), yet he wouldn't have been able to catch Jiraiya off guard afterwards, who would then go find and kill Nagato while Pain is immobilized.

    Jiraiya was not a fraction of Pain's strength. He was pushed to his limits by 3 bodies, and Tendou (God realm) is probably stronger than most of the bodies combined. In other words, the 3 bodies Jiraiya fought, whom gave him a lot of trouble, were but a fraction of Pain's total strength.
     
  19. KyuubiYondaime Heisenberg

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    Itachi>Orochimaru>Jiraiya
     
  20. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    Again Pain's comment doesn't mention intel, its an unclear statement. If he knew are secret could mean if he knew other bodies were around, if he knew their abilities, or if he knew where to find the immobilized body. These secrets are part of Pain's power.

    We know Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya, we know with near full knowledge, an army of toads, and Pain being exhausted that Pain was still stronger than Naruto. We know the rinengan is the epitome of power in the manga. This all leads us to believe Pain is superior.
     
  21. KyuubiYondaime Heisenberg

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    Jiraiya typically begins in Base. A powerful Shinra Tensei from Nagato should be enough to oneshot him.
     
  22. Hoshigaki Kisame Monster of the Hidden Mist

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    Jiraiya is above Itachi. Itachi fans just refuse to accept it.
     
  23. KyuubiYondaime Heisenberg

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    When even a Sage Jiraiya has a legit answer to Tsukuyomi, then we can talk.
     
  24. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    Its clear that at the very least Itachi is equal not weaker.
     
  25. jimbob631 God of War Guan Yu

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    What does Oro do against Frog Song?

    You need to be in range to use it, and bunshins is a good defense, once Itachi uses any MS technique he loses stamina and becomes strained. He does not get Edo feats as he had unlimited chakra.
     
  26. LostSelf Forest Sage

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    Until Kishi says who is stronger and who would win, this Jiraiya Vs Itachi debate will always be.

    Despite Kishi showing more interest in Itachi, i feel that he cares the same for both. I even dare to say that he cherished Jiraiya more as a character But i believe that, from Kishi's perspective, Jiraiya and Itachi would end in a draw.

    But featwise i can't say Jiraiya beats him.
     
  27. ueharakk Active Member

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    Meh, I think the whole, "if you knew my secret, I would have lost" quote was about SM Jiraiya attacking wheelchair Nagato directly, or Pein getting caught in the surprise Frog Song and the fight taking place in Nagato's hometown where he doesn't want to nuke.

    I however do agree that Jiraiya was depicted as being on Itachi's level by the earlier statements in the manga as well as the parallels drawn between his death by his former pupil's hands and Itachi's death by Sasuke's hands happening one after the other.
     
  28. Untitled

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    "Shouldn't Jiraiya be stronger?" He is. Some people are just jealous that their favorite character is weaker than Jiraiya and not comparable to his badassery and awesome.

    "4 May the heathens be struck with the might of myoboku for no man shall remain after witnessing the might of our Savior. 5 For he gave his life for the good of man, the great Lord Jiraiya is second to no other."
    The Holy Jiraible, Book of Uchiha. Chapter 16, verses 4 and 5. X
     
  29. Inferno .

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    JOKI!!!! :zaru
     
  30. Untitled

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    You can call me that name if you want. To me it means nothing.

    I'm no one, I don't want to be anyone, all I care about is preaching the word of our Lord and Savior, the Great Jiraiya.

    "12 May the prophets of Uchiha and spreaders of evil be crushed under the toads."
    Book of Uchiha Chapter 7 verse 12. :jir_ras
     
  31. GKY Active Member

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    He's on a slightly lower level then Itachi. Personally, I believe MS and SM are equivalent powerups, but Itachi mastered the MS whereas Jiraiya never fully mastered SM. Also, for Jiraiya to be stronger or equal to Itachi you would probably have to completely disregard the blatant parallel between Oro and Jiraiya in all of part 1.

    But overall, Itachi has more panel time, more hype and more feats. Also, the only statement he ever said regarding Jiraiya was that they would draw, whether it be 1 on 1 or Jiraiya vs. the entire Akatsuki, which is obviously ridiculous. Also a lot of other suspicious things occurred during that interaction, like Itachi not using genjutsu (or even amaterasu) on Jiraiya when they looked into each others eyes or Kisame questioning Itachis decision to flee despite already using his MS 3 times that day.

    I'm sure people will mention parallels, so here is my take. Sasuke progressed from Kakashi->Oro->Itachi->Madara whereas Naruto will progress from Kakashi->Jiraiya->Minato->Hashirama. I still think the Oro vs Jiraiya parallel stands because you'd have to ignore the entirety of part one to disregard it. Still, I don't believe Minato and Itachi are directly paralleled, since they never competed and may never have even met, whereas all other rivals have. Still, they are both geniuses who sacrificed themselves for their respective "students", so in a sense there is some connection. Still, Itachi is also somewhat compared to Jiraiya, as Naruto gained SM and Sasuke gained MS at similar times and are thought to be of similar power. Also, they both died right after each other, which I don't think was coincidence. So IMO I think Itachi has parallels to both Minato and Jiraiya, and also happens to fall in between their level of power.

    This doesn't mean Jiraiya can't beat Itachi,since he is really formidable in himself and is really only slightly weaker. Itachi kind of falls into no mans land if you wanted to give him a tier, because he is below Minato and Nagato (IMO) but more powerful than a sannin. The white fang is probably similar in that regard, and maybe Tobimara aswell.

    I personally believe even if Jiraiya started in HM he would be defeated by Itachi at least 6/10 times, with the circumstances of the situation playing a big role of course.

    On a side note, I have to ask. Why do so many Jiraiya fans insist that he is Itachi's equal, that is paralleled to him in tons of ways (according to them), and yet insist that he would stomp him with little to no difficulty in a fight.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  32. Turrin 玄武

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    With all things consider I'd say Sharingan Obito and Nagato are probably in the same Tier. This is 1 or 2 Tiers above Jiraiya and Itachi, but not so far above that they couldn't win with intel. Look at what Konan could do with intel, now imagine J-man or Itachi, that's how they would win.

    But to answer the question yes they are probably in the same Tier, any minor differences in strength are not enough to warrant an entirely different tier placement.
     
  33. boohead Active Member

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    This. Anything else is the typical fanfiction wank from Itachi's ever so amusing fanbase. :handshake


    And yes, Pain and current Obito are a teir above both.
     
  34. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    Oh, look, another Itachi vs Jiraiya thread that brings nothing new to the table.
     
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