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Saito Hajime vs Shinomori Aoshi

Discussion in 'Manga/Anime Battledome' started by LivingHitokiri, Oct 1, 2007.

Who will win?

  1. Saito

    58.1%
  2. Aoshi

    32.3%
  3. Draw

    9.7%
  1. LivingHitokiri イース -フェルガナの誓い-!

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  2. Cthulhu-versailles The Luckiest Man in Agrabah

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    People often rely on the fact that Saitou was a match for Kenshin during the Bekoumatsa (omg I butchered the name) and assume that alone is proof of his victory. However, that is so far beyond wrong it's not even funny. Moreover, Saitou's later showings against Usui and during the Enishi arc against the 'Clan freak are not indicators of him having superior ability. In fact, Aoshi is the one who gets stronger as the series progresses. In addition, Aoshi has a style that perfectly counters Saitou.

    To put it simply, Aoshi has better hand to hand combat abilties. In addition, his dual Kodaichi can neutralize Saitou's attacks better then even Kenshin. Finally, Aoshi Flow movement, past battle experience, and better hand to hand skills, mean he can deal with the non-tradional swordsman tactics Saitou will breakout.

    Based on everything I've said Aoshi wins. He is underestimated by Rk readers.
     
  3. LivingHitokiri イース -フェルガナの誓い-!

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    it would be hard for aoshi toa void his gatotsubut Aoshi imo is stronger because he forced kenshin to use Amakakeru ryu no hirameki
     
  4. Sesshoumaru Lord of the Western Lands

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    There is no such thing as a style that perfectly counters one another.

    Aoshi is still considered a child when compaed to Hajime Saito. Old age and treachery shall always defeat youth and skill.
     
  5. Sasaki Kojirō Active Member

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    Gatotsu zero ends this. Aoshi has more experience? He was a damn bodyguard while Saito was fighting countless battles in the civil war. Saito is no slouch at all in hand to hand either from the way he beat on Kenshin and Sano respectively.
     
  6. Fang Titan

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    Saito beats on Aoshi. Bad-Asses > Bishies.

    But seriously, Battosai Kenshin was never beating on Saito during the Meji Era and Aoshi would've been slaughtered by him, no contest. Saito takes this easily or with the minimum of effort.
     
  7. LivingHitokiri イース -フェルガナの誓い-!

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    Neither Saito beated ever kenshin... it was a tie till kenshin learned new skills.
     
  8. Shuntensatsu Fanboy Exterminator

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    My bias towards Saito aside he still wins this fight, he is much more ruthless and has far more battle experience fighting Bakumatsu Kenshin who is far more deadly than Aoshi.

    Likely he can end this without using Gatotsu Zero Shiki.
     
  9. Vandal Savage Game Theory Administrator

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    Saito wins because of experience and he is just that deadly.
     
  10. Dream Brother Active Member

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    That?s pretty tough. I?ve always seen Saito and Aoshi as very closely matched.

    Aoshi became the leader of the Oniwabanshu at the age of fifteen, and even took part in defending Edo Castle during the violent revolution. He tore up Okina with relative ease, who, even though he was quite aged and thus past his prime, was also said to have been the only one to equal the former leader in a fight, and was thus very respected. He had two very close fights with Kenshin, both in which involved Kenshin getting the stuffing beaten out of him with both blades and unarmed combat. Kenshin himself described the difference between he and Aoshi as that of a ?hair? (and this was, it should be noted, after he gained his ultimate succession move, the one that would later do away with Shishio and his prize pupil, Soujiro).

    Aoshi (even after having been struck down by said succession technique on the same day) actually fought with the amazingly lethal Shishio and held him at bay long enough for Kenshin to recover, a feat that would be remarkable even if he?d been at full health and utterly fresh. In a later arc, he defeats both the puppet master Gein and the mimic expert Suzaku. It?s safe to say that he?s one of the very best swordsmen in the entire series, but he can also use some exceptional Kenpo (he is, in fact, said to be a master of this art) and can not only damage people externally but internally too, which is shown when Kenshin collapses to his knees coughing blood after being hit on several places over his chest. He?s intelligent and, although not completely amoral after being ?redeemed?, isn?t exactly a saint either, and has no problem with killing someone.

    Now, Saito?well, he?s another brilliant fighter. He wasn?t only in the famed Shinsengumi -- he was actually a leader of one of the squads. Like Aoshi, he?s shown fighting Kenshin on more than one occasion, and he also gives him very close fights. The difference, however, is that Saito is never shown being defeated by Kenshin, unlike Aoshi, and seems to possess even better combat skills than Kenshin himself, if only by a slight amount. Watsuki himself (in a Q and A session) was asked who would prevail between Saito and Kenshin in a final fight, and backs this claim:

    That seems fairly clear -- that in terms of simple combat ability, not including emotional stakes or whatnot, Saito is above even Kenshin and thus, I would imagine, Aoshi too -- even though the ?if x can beat y, and y defeated z, then x can beat z!? argument rarely actually works or makes sense, I would say that it?s definitely one of the indicators of Saito?s superiority, even if it?s not solid proof. Saito?s Gatotsu managed to impale Kenshin completely through the stomach and cause him all kinds of problems. It also would have most likely killed Shishio himself if not for the metal bandanna he wore, which protected him from having his head impaled. Saito also has, I would argue, more intelligence and razor sharp perception than Aoshi (who is pretty clever himself) as demonstrated by the way he approaches fights. He?s worked as a spy for the government, he attacks Kenshin psychologically (before he does so physically) by nearly killing Sanosuke and leaving him as a ?calling card?, and he manages to completely grasp the dynamic between Usui and Shishio without even knowing the two of them that well, an example of a very quick and penetrating mind.

    One could say that Aoshi still trumps Saito in the unarmed department, because of his mastery of Kenpo -- but Saito?s ingenuity in combat, I feel, makes up for this, as he is fully willing to use everything and anything to aid him to win (notice how he throws a broken sword at Kenshin, and even uses a belt at one point to disarm him). In addition, his ?zero stance? Gatotsu would be something that could serve as a perfect counter to Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren, as it needs no momentum or prior movement, and thus can catch Aoshi coming in easily.

    I have to say that Saito wins, but unlike what other people are saying on this thread, it wouldn?t be an easy fight. Aoshi is brilliant, but just not brilliant enough, and I?d expect the fight to end in a similar way to Aoshi vs Kenshin 2, with Saito (after being somewhat bloodied and battered) countering Aoshi?s best move with the zero stance Gatotsu, ending the fight right there.
     
  11. EvilMoogle Administrator Administrator

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    Saito vs. Shishio lasted what, a few seconds?

    Aoshi vs. Shishio lasted several minutes.

    Aoshi > Saito.
     
  12. Sasaki Kojirō Active Member

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    Except Saito was going for the kill and Aoshi was merely fighting defensively and stalling. Shishio even said he was impressed with the zero stance gatotsu before he finished him.
     
  13. Azure Flame Fright The One Advisor

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    This was done before use the search button next time
     
  14. Basilikos .

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    Aoshi takes this.

    Remember the battle between Aoshi and Kenshin is Shishio's lair? Before that Hiko taught Kenshin the will to survive which maximized Kenshin's power. Aoshi fought evenly with the powered up Kenshin. While before Kenshin's power up Kenshin fought Saito in an evenly match battle.

    Gatotsu is a very linear attack. With Aoshi's battle experience, prodigy status, flowing water movement, and dual kodachi style, he takes this.
     
  15. Segan 100th Dan Brawler

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    As if Saito would lose to Aoshi. Sorry, but all Aoshi has, is prodigy. Doesn't come close to what Saito accomplished.

    And besides, Saito has never been given the chance to go all out, like Aoshi, Sano and Kenshin. He just had no luck against Shishio, since he was injured from the get-go (leg injury, when you gotta move fast, huh?) and his killer-move was stopped by Shishio's metal headgear.
     
  16. Kage no Yume The Hunter

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    While I hate using A > B > C logic, it kinda works here:

    1. Battousai Kenshin =/< Saito
    2. Kenshin w/ Ougi > Battousai Kenshin
    3. Emotionless Aoshi lost by a hairsbreadth to Kenshin w/ Ougi
    4. End of manga Aoshi > Emotionless Aoshi
    5. Given the quoted interview, Wakatsuki admits that the Amakakeru ryuu no Hirameki would allow Kenshin to defeat Saito (the whole "something to protect" = will to live = Ougi). Thus Kenshin w/ Ougi > Saito.


    It's because of this reasoning, as well as the linear approach of Gatotsu along with Aoshi's knowledge of Saito's style, that I believe Aoshi to be stronger than Saito at the end of the manga.
     
  17. LivingHitokiri イース -フェルガナの誓い-!

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    So battousai Kenshin with ougi>universe?
     
  18. Segan 100th Dan Brawler

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    No, Battousai Kenshin with Amakakeru and Kuzu Ryu Sen would the strongest, if such thing ever existed.
     
  19. Sesshoumaru Lord of the Western Lands

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    Saito toyed with Kenshin before his power-up. In that battle at the beginning of the Kyoto Chronicles Saito could of killed Kenshin at any time, though refrained just to see where the former Battousai was at. Kenshin fought Aoshi after understanding his will to survive, but they did not fight to the death. Aoshi was trying to kill Kenshin, not vice versa.

    In a match between Aoshi and Saito, the clear victor is Saito and your Lord shall explain why. For one, Saito was one of the Shinsengumi (or still is) and is one of the strongest swordsman that can actually fight in even combat against the Battousai during that time period. From there last meeting during the revolution, there is a period where Kenshin fades out and becomes a wanderer while Hajime continues to fight. Not only does Saito have the skill, his experience in lethal combat is that much greater than both Kenshin and Aoshi. Even though Saito is Aoshi's senior, his physical abilities seem to have only increased since the beginning of the Meiji. Unlike Aoshi, Saito's instincts are honed to near perfection. Aoshi may have the youth and endurance, but Saito Hajime has age and treachery to not only counter Aoshi's style, but take the kill.
     
  20. Dark Ascendant Yes it is! You Whore!

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    Saito became a policeman. His skills did not get better under the Meiji and I have no idea why you say they did. He was living through the same era of peace that Kenshin did, the only difference being that his job was more hazardous, but he certainly wasn't running into Kurogawas every day to sharpen those skills.
     
  21. mystictrunks The BOWSS

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    Kenshin was stronger then he was in Battosai form during the Shishio arc . . .



    Aoshi wins, gatsou should never have worked against any competent person.
     
  22. Sasaki Kojirō Active Member

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    Except that it's almost as fast as Kenshin and takes out giant steel doors. But yeah whatever it's weak.
     
  23. mystictrunks The BOWSS

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    It's just an overly obvious move. The entire motion suggests a stab. Common sense says GTFO of the way.
     
  24. Fang Titan

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    Yeah and one of Shishio's most impressive members of the Juppon Gatana tried that...and got ripped in half.
     
  25. mystictrunks The BOWSS

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    PIS. Seriously nearly every member of the Juppon Gatana should have won their fights.
     
  26. Fang Titan

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    Wasn't Saito playing around with him? Seriously MT, you guys are underestimating how powerful Saito is. Meji Civil War Kenshin >>>>>>>>>>> Aoshi any day. And Saito could've killed him at any of the times he wanted when he became a wandering Ronin.
     
  27. mystictrunks The BOWSS

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    I don't think he was playing around as he was forced to use Zero Point Gatsou to defeat him.
     
  28. Azure Flame Fright The One Advisor

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    he only had to use that because of the opponents fighting style it was basically made to counter attacks like gatotsu so basically it was the kenshin vs enishi fight 1 but saito overcame that disadvantage but no aoshi still takes this
     

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