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Rinnegan vs. Sharingan, Pain vs. Madara

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Pholist_Flow, Oct 14, 2007.

  1. Pholist_Flow Member

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    Sorry if this thread has been created before, but it's just a thought I came up with.

    If the Rinnegan is the best doujutsu, would that make Pain better than Madara? But from the one scene I remember Madara giving him orders instead... Or does the evolving capabilities of the Sharingan make it better than Rinnegan?
     
  2. Hexa probably Dendi Advisor

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    The "most powerful" line was a mistranslation. Jiraiya actually just said that the Rinnegan is the most "illustrious", "noble", "sublime", "lofty", etc. doujutsu.

    It's made fairly clear whose in charge from 363 and 364. Take NJT's translation of 363

    Pain: So... How was Sasuke?

    [Madara]: Not bad at all. He made extremely good use of his Sharingan. Those eyes will be better than Itachi's. The time is ripe. You can bet he's prepared himself, as it won't be long now

    Pain: So it's time to get the kyuubi?

    [Madara]: You do it. As you are their leader, I won't accept failure.
    In 364, Madara just tells Pain to be weary of Naruto and gives another order:
    Madara: That'll be all. Have the other members pick up the pace in their hunt for the remaining Jinchuuriki.

    He's also twice called the "mastermind" behind Akatsuki in the sidetext.
     
  3. Athena Citra Details...

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    The Rin'negan is probably a better eye than the Sharingan, hence its greater illustriousness. However, that does not mean every Rin-negan user is stronger than every Sharingan user.
     
  4. ~ Son of SPARDA ~ Active Member

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    Sharingan has dominated virtually the entire manga, plotwise, while Rin'negan just recently made its impromptu, half-thought-out, thrown-together appearance a chapter or two ago... Think about it, if the Rin'negan is such an "illustrious" bloodline, then why didn't Kishi find it important, or "illustrious," enough to mention before now??? He's clearly spent considerably more time developing the Sharingan than he has the Rin'negan, so apparently he deems the Sharingan to be of more importance; and this greater significance will undoubtedly translate into greater power, than that of the other two eye techniques, within the manga itself.
     
  5. The Pink Ninja Infamous Cocksucker

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    I think is Madara strikes down Pein it'll be when Pein is on the his last legs already.

    Of course I thought the same about the AL getting Orochimaru :sag

    I am, however, sure Madara doesn't dominate Pein. Pein is obeying him for now because he needs him.

    But you saw the way Pein talked. He believes himself a God. Gods don't plan to be a servant for eternity.
     
  6. Odlam Team 7 4 Life Advisor

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    This line right here says it all for me

    1) Madara gives Pein a direct command

    2) Madara excludes himself regular Akatsuki membership and makes it clear that Pein isn't in charge of him to the readers

    3) "I won't accept faliure" - does that really need an explanation?

    And yah, he's been called the mastermind twice, and this is shonen manga.
     
  7. The Pink Ninja Infamous Cocksucker

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    Although it should be noted Pein didn't quiver or quake. He got pissed while keeping his cool.
     
  8. Fang Titan

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    Your arugment on the Rin'negan's potential and importance to the story being less then the Sharingan is weak. Pein's character and that of his eyes were being foreshadowed since Part I, held back and weren't revealed until recently.

    Just because the Rin'negan in the story is newer then teh Sharingan doesn't devolve it's importance. And side-text is unimportant, such as Madara being called a genius or mastermind since those are written by the editors of Shonen Jump.
     
  9. Sasuke rip

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    He expressed his emotions through the weather :LOS
     
  10. Euraj StraightOuttaJakku

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    I don't think it works that way.

    To me, the Rinnegan is the beginning and end of the world and the Sharingan and Byakugan are the eyes that see in between. Think of it this way. The Sharingan and the main plot of the story are the main course of a meal. The Rinnegan is the dessert. It doesn't have to be a part of the main dish, it just has to be good enough to top everything. That's why I think Pain is getting all this ridiculous hype. He'll be in the climax, and we can't have a sucky person in that position.

    Anyhow. The Rinnegan's power is self-evident. There is only one, known user in the world yet he is stronger than perhaps ninety-nine percent of every Sharingan and Byakugan user that have ever lived. I doubt Pain's going to do something self-destructive to the plot like killing Tobi, but after listening to his plans and rereading Jiraiya's description of the eye, I know they're going to have some kind of conflict soon, like Pink said. I think Tobi's purpose is too kick up Sasuke or Kakashi for the final clash that includes Naruto and either the Kyūbi or the Ultimate Kinjutsu with the last Akatsuki members being the propagators of the event.
     
  11. dyrinn45 Member

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    obviously you cannot introduce everything and everyone of importance in the first chapter for it to be powerful, that is a sad excuse.
     
  12. healer81 Member

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    its obvious Rinnegan is the most powerful eye technique. given the experience that pein has through his lifetime, its evident that he has developed his eye technique to at least a mediocre level to high level... otherwise he would not be the leader...
    its silly to stay any other eye technique is stronger when the author of the manga said so..
    I think the author knows more than anyone in this forum..

    people are so silly making speculations in this forum about characters. For the longest time people were thinking the leader was naruto's father or brother or some shit like that with no evidence other than what is coming out of their ass
     
  13. Specter Von Baren A Ghost In The Machine

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    This forum lacks.... patience.
     
  14. Uchiha Q 1718

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    just becouse jiraya didint say that rinnegan was > sharingan directly does not mean that rinnegan is < sharingan.

    we have to wait and see.
     
  15. MS81 Supreme Jounin

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    he didn't say it's the strongest doujutsu either.:wink
     
  16. Kyros Lol, Uchiha

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    More like he was answering Pain's question.

    You're right, but that doesn't make him the leader either, as he tells Pain is their leader, not him.

    Would you accept failure for a major plan?

    A mastermind is the person who thinks up the idea. It doesn't automatically make him stronger.

    On a side note, the Rin'negan is said to be the Tool of God, while the Sharingan is just the copy-wheel eye.

    Tool of God vs. Copy-Wheel Eye.

    Take your pick.
     
  17. Specter Von Baren A Ghost In The Machine

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    I guess you could say the Rin'negan is science because it creates and the sharingan is history since it copies. So that would make the byakugan... what?
     
  18. dyrinn45 Member

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    you could name a jutsuu throbing penis of god, or you can name a jutsuu right hand win of god...name means nothing, just because it has the word god in it does not make it more powerful, it was named by someone who wanted to impress someone else.
     
  19. Spencer_Gator Pain is a god.

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    As of right now we can't tell who is stronger, or which eye is stronger....we will just have to wait.
     
  20. Ginsei This is my cool custom usertit

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    Although I sorta agree with the rest of your post, I have to argue with the "Copy-Wheel Eye" part. It's not only that anymore... It's an eye that can distort space and time, and do more incredible things than just copy jutsus and read movements.

    However, I still have a feeling that although the Rinnegan may be stronger or have better abilities, perhaps just more god-like abilities, it is fodder, while the Sharingan is not.
     
  21. Ookii Kintama Active Member

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    Shit > Fail

    Madara > Pain
     
  22. Sarun ɹǝʌǝɹoɟ loodɹǝʌıl

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    Lets just wait and see!
     
  23. terminus123 Member

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    you know when I first saw the title Rinnegan vs Sharigan, Pein ve Madara,
    I was like, womebodies going to get hurt, let the flaming begin!
     
  24. Mikaveli Head is the answer

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    maybe madara has all of akstuki under a very powerful genjustsu
     
  25. ~ Son of SPARDA ~ Active Member

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    Although, it should be noted that Pein failed to do or say anything in response to Madara's threat, whereas he would have without hesitation if he was really as powerful and bad-ass as everyone is making him out to be.

    You're partially correct; Pain's CHARACTER was foreshadowed in Part 1, but there was no significance whatsoever associated with or even hinted as pertaining to his eyes, and don't say that there was solely because they were the only part of him that were shown at the time because the whole "shadow figure" guise wasn't implemented to emphasize his eyes, but to conceal his identity... No more, no less. And if side-text regarding Madara isn't important, then neither is that concerning Pain, so I hope you remember that if/when they write some laudatory comment about him that ridiculously over-hypes him.

    No, what's a sad excuse is your so-called post... I never said it had to be introduced in the first chapter, just sometime, anytime, before the manga progressed as far as it has. Stop adding words to my post and actually read it before you start trying to pick it apart.
     
  26. Spencer_Gator Pain is a god.

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    at this point u can't tell....who knows its pointless to debate until it is proven in manga.
     
  27. Specter Von Baren A Ghost In The Machine

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    Pein doesn't get rilled up over much. Hidan was bad mouthing him and Pein just ignored it, couldn't the same be said about your precious Uchiha?

    As to you talking about foreshadowing. We didn't hear jack squat about Madara until the fight between Sasuke and Naruto at the valley and even then it was barely anything at all. If you want to argue for foreshadowing then you lose because we have had Pein being foreshadowed since Gaara was being relieved of tanuki.
     
  28. Purgatory Banned

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    Uchiha = Shit.

    Need I explain more?
     
  29. ~ Son of SPARDA ~ Active Member

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    First of all, no, the same thing can't be said about my precious Uchiha, because if it could, then Madara would be the one getting ordered around instead of Pain. Besides, there's a fine line between bad-mouthing and ordering someone; Hidan didn't order Pain to do anything.

    Second of all, whoever said I wanted to argue foreshadowing?? I'm not even the one who brought up the issue of foreshadowing, Shiroi Kiba is, I was merely responding to what he had already said about the subject. Third of all, we're not talking about characters here, we're talking about bloodlines; so when the foreshadowing of Madara and Pain began is irrelevant, as Madara's bloodline (in terms of manga presence) inarguably has seniority over Pain's regardless of when Madara himself came into the picture. Fourth of all, I never gave a specific time and point within the manga at which something had to be mentioned or introduced in order to conform to my acceptable criteria of longevity, so Pain being alluded to earlier than Madara is of no concern to me... They were both still mentioned in Part 1, which is long enough ago for they themselves to be considered as solidly established characters, as far as I'm concerned at least; but, as I just stated, we're not talking about the characters themselves, we're talking about their bloodlines.
     
  30. Jonas Banned

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    Then we have a funny strength-hierarchy here on Narutofan.

    Shit is essentially the strongest deity in the chart. :lmao
     
  31. Hazell Member

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    Pein needs Madara for some reason, and it's a big enough reason for him to take orders from Madara. Maybe something to do with needing his sharingan eyes for control of the tailed beasts.

    But Madara seems to be getting set up at the 'end villian' of the shipp arc... So he will have to be stronger for the story to make sense in progression.
     
  32. ~ Son of SPARDA ~ Active Member

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    This has got to be the most intelligent thing I've ever seen a newbie write... +reps.
     
  33. IonDragon Old School

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    You don't take orders from someone you can beat, simple as that.
     
  34. Adrianhamm Active Member

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    So Gatou could beat Haku and Zabuza? I'll give you sometime to think about that and possibly retract that statement.
     
  35. IonDragon Old School

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    Lol are you actually comparing a ninja with an idiot business man? Give an example of two ninjas, where one, who is stronger, takes orders from someone weaker. I'll be waiting :nuts
     
  36. uzum4k1 n4rut0 Get some jolts into ya

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    3 doujutsu`s will have a war and naruto will come out of no were with a frs and say

    Pwned lmao
     
  37. causesobad Meijin

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    Best post in this thread. :amuse
     
  38. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Well I think Akatsuki will be more subservient to guy who has supposedly never lost a fight than to a supposed-to-be-dead, Uchiha, from Konoha who was owned by the 1st Hokage. Madara is the puppet master.
     
  39. Adrianhamm Active Member

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    I could but that one was fine enough. We don't even know the specifics of Pein and Madara's relationship.
     
  40. uchiha-alia 10 tail jinchuuriki

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    for gods sake! why are there so damn many people talking about this when its so fucking obvious. lol if you have a better doujutsu it doesnt mean you're stronger. and age and experience also make a difference. put hyuuga hiashi against uchiha obito when he was 12, who would win? hiashi of course, but does that mean the byakugan is better than the sharingan? fuck no. a great doujutsu doesnt make you strong. uchiha madara is over a century old, pein is like 20... madara probably knows hundreds of jutsus, and is possibly stronger than pein, but so what? hes 5 times older.
     
  41. Adrianhamm Active Member

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    As Kakuzu has shown experience isn't everything.
     
  42. Grendel .

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    Does everyone forget that when Madara was apparently ordering Pain around like "his bitch" that Konan scolded Madara for speaking to Pain that way and reminded him who he was talking to...the man that's never been defeated.

    I think Madara may be the mind behind it or that Pain may need him for the end. The "I won't accept failure" part could have just meant..."if you want my help I won't accept failure from you"...we don't know yet the exact extent of their relationship.

    One thing that was clear from the conversation though is that Konan didn't seem to give Madara much respect....

    I think we have to wait to see which of the two is the stronger and which of the two eyes are stronger. Being the strongest or most illustrious seems to be a moot point when the eye is called a tool of god that can either save or destroy the world.
     
  43. uchiha-alia 10 tail jinchuuriki

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    the post i said last time still i believe is true, on top of that, we dont know the nature of their relatioship, madara could be the 'gato' and pein could be the 'zabuza', i mean yes if madara was so strong, he should go get the kyuubi...
     
  44. IonDragon Old School

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    No you couldn't because there are none, period.
     
  45. Cookie757 New Member

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    My thoughts:

    Earlier I have heard that the sharingan is an evolved form of the byakugan. So perhaps we do not know everything yet. Allow me to elaborate, the byakugan is a white eye and the rinnegan is a white and black spiral eye. So perhaps there is a black eye. The sharingan is just an evolved eye. So in my theory the third eye doesn't have to be black but it means we do not know the other eye. Don't you guys find it weird that Madara would be higher than pein if his powers were better, his clan always brag they are the greatest power including him. The other reason is why would 2/3 of the eyes be found in the land of fire, i think the 2nd or "black" eye is in the village hidden in the clouds or the stones because we know so little about them. Perhaps there could be an evolved form of the second eye similar to the sharingan, and Naruto's mom wasn't from the village hidden in the leaves so perhaps she has this ability. Sorry for the rant it is just my theory that the sharingan is above the 6 paths because it isn't one of the three great eyes. We'll have to wait and see. Also while i am ranting two other theories.

    2: Sharingan is the 2nd place eye Madara is just smarter than Pein and is using him to collect the beasts and turn himself into a god.

    3: Non-related theory there will be 3 parts of Naruto and we are nearly done with part 2. There has been a streesed importance of 3 throughout the series, 3 eyes, 3 sanin, 3 doma in the sharingan, and then multiples of 3- 9 tailed beasts, 6 paths, etc. The author has also stated he liked dragonball z and the dragonball series which was built in 3s, db, dbz, dbgt or dbz had the 3 main parts. I use this example because I think he likes the heroes trilogy idea or a beginning, middle, and end. So what we are seeing now isnt quite hitting the end, Orochi was the main enemy of part 1, he died in 2, I think akatsuki will be finished in early 3 and the Sage of 6 paths and Madara or another group madara is a part of will be the main and final enemy. This will allow Naruto time to grow up and become hokage level, how can the series end without answering this question if he will prove he is that powerful-he could be evil for those who hope that-so just saying the people that think we are heading towards the end i say the signs point towards no, this is the second part and another hint of that is there was a battle at... (umm forget the place but where madara fought the first...) at the end of the first part this will conclude part II as well (itachi vs sasuke), and then finally at the end of part iii naruto vs sasuke.

    So hopefully I answered and confused many of you. This was a long post and some questions I think we should be asking are Who will train naruto next? himself?(since jiraiya is dead and kakashi isnt that strong), the 4th somehow?and another is will sasuke unlock his man sharingan or does he already have a really cool one? Alright Cookie out.
     
  46. Athena Citra Details...

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    I think Nagato is stronger than Madara because of the form he is in: However, judging by the manner in which Madara speaks to him and the fact that he doesn't get slapped in the mouth for it, Madara holds most of the cards in their relationship.
     
  47. Adrianhamm Active Member

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    There sure are.
    1.) Anyone that hires a ninja . How do you think the hidden villages support themselves when their aren't any wars going at a given time?

    2.) Itachi took orders from his father until he decided to kill the whole clan.

    3.) Neji and Hanabi are going to be taking orders from Hinata and the main family.

    It took this long because I forgot about the thread.
     
  48. Squall Leonhart Copy Ninja

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    If there is any slight chance that the Rinnegan is stronger (though I doubt it), then I'm sure that "The Sharingan's true power" that Tobi mentioned is going to be stronger, even more than the Mangekyo Sharingan.
     
  49. roujinziro Tap or Snap

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    the tue abilities of the rinnegan have yet to be fully revealed, unless i've missed something...but everything so far points to it being the most legendary of the dojutsu. But as far as Pain vs. Madara, Madara wins hands down. Why? He most likely has the most powerful sharingan ever, and the battle experience tops everyone currently alive in the series...only other one who would have come close would have been Kazuku. Plus, my guess is that Madara must have been instrumental to Pain becoming what he is and the death of Yahiko. maybe in some sort of apprentice/master relationship...just a hunch...
     
  50. Hexa probably Dendi Advisor

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    Somehow, I don't really think Konan would scold Madara. And in fact, she didn't. Rather, Madara warned Pain about Naruto and Konan said his warning was unnecessary.
     

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