Discussion in 'Bleach Battledome' started by LittleLamplightMassacre, Apr 4, 2011.
Bankai is banned for Love
Love still wins in my opinion.
The Visored VC's can hold their own against the released 3rd Espada
The Visored Captains...actually one Visored Captain in particular beat up on the first Espada
I see Komamura beating Love into the ground with sheer force. It'd take him some time, but what can Love do?
Now why on earth would I believe Love in Shikai can beat Bankai Komamura =/, when they both have the same fighting style?
Why should Komamura get to use his Bankai when Love can't?
Vizard mask isn't comparable to Bankai.
Because Base Love is a lot stronger than Base Komamura? =/
And what makes you think that?
Some people think it, or else mask + shikai, is.
First let me ask you, do you think any current Captains could tank Stark's ceros in base or dispel them easily with Shikai?
Ukitake can and has, so has Shunsui
Junior Captains. Not senior Captains
Zaraki could tank, Komamura probably could as well.
Deflect? Probably Zaraki. Im not sure how Koma's shikai works so who knows, but all implications point to him being able to as well
Now, could either of them deflect multiple ceros? Or tank multiple ceros?
None of the captains have the requisite defensive shikai type. Byakuya, Soifon, Komamura, Hitsu, they're all offensive shikai's. As for tanking them in base, sure Koma and Ken can.
As Hmph said, Koma's shikai is offensive, hence I said I dunno how it works. Do I think he could do X if he were to attack Starrk and Starrk were firing his cero's?
Yes, if its wide enough
This is Komamura's Shikai we're talking about, man. The minute Aizen flexed his spiritual pressure X
Unlike Love's weapon which remained intact.
Komamura was heavily wounded, and the sword he creates may well be more brittle than the actual zan. It could also be as simple as the one Aizen's chose to target.
Likewise, Koma's shikai met Love's and neither X from the other
Love's Shikai X when Aizen broke Komamura's
That's definitely the case but it's irrelevant. Also, it's not as simple as the one Aizen chose to target.
Also, another question. Do you guys think any current VC stands a chance against Harribel?
It isn't irrelevant. Its just as relevant as whatever it is you're trying to claim
Also, are you using the logic that because Person A fought Person B, Person A is on Person B's level?
It's irrelevant because Love was also wounded at the time.
I'm asking if you think any VC wouldn't outright be blitzed and destroyed by Harribel
Did Harribel try to outright blitz and destroy Lisa and Hiyori?
What makes it irrelevant?
In a straight fight? No. I hope you have somewhere you're actually going somewhere with this, or are you going to try to build an argument off a single panel that very clearly does not show an actual fight as a fight? Because, you know, I've seen people claim Hitsugaya is a straight match for Aizen in a swordfight, and their argument has as much evidence as that one.
I've already explained why it's irrelevant; because Love was also injured at the time. And as for y'know, you being wrong? I showed you the panels.
Also, didya forget actual feats?
The smoke swirls around in a circle, sort of. That's about it. Komamura was more grievously injured, more recently, and may well have a more brittle weapon... it's supposed to disapear anyway. None of this really shows base Love as stronger than base Komamura.
...you're missing the point.
A. Those were less of a 1v1 than Hitsu's clash with Aizen.
B. She was masked for all of that.
C. Being brushed off doesn't really show a strength feat. We don't see how the blades connect, so we don't even know who was attacking. Really, there is a reason she immediatly used shikai while 2 other opponents closed in and they still did got a draw.
It shows Tengumaru is more well suited for combating Stark's ceros than Komamura's Tenken. Also, the bolded shows exactly that about their Zans.
More grievously injured needs proof.
Lisa's skirmish lasted a lot longer.
A. What. No they weren't. Shunsui interfered every single time.
B. your point? Her mask is part of her power
And, yes, so please explain to me how two current VCs would be able to stand a chance against Harribel with Shikais, even if they did get masks.
Which does not show that their base is different, the ultimate topic of this argument.
The point was that Aizen didn't attack him back.
And Halibel was going for Hitsugaya while Hiyori helped Lisa's actual attack.
Was not the entire purpose of this argument about base vs base vizards vs current Gotei 13?
Yeah, captain level people are pretty "rare." It'd be pretty surprising with a group of 8 people with that kind of power randomly appearing.
Why should they? It's a 3v1. Her sonido would be a problem as well as that absurd reach, but she still can't make a decent attack without being blindsided. It's not as if a vice-captain can't do anything against a captain, give them a mask and replace captain with Halibel and there you go.
I'd say Love.
My vote goes to Love.
Love showed that his Rei was on par with Stark in order to tank and dispel his ceros like that.
Komamura's Rei on par with the Primera? As if
Not thar above. Invalid parallel.
Yes, but base Lisa is clearly stronger than any VC, because X, even when the Captain is a Junior.
X even unmasked.
No, having Toshiro comment on their power like that is impressive. Kay?
Toshiro is a Captain, didya forget?
You really don't have the entire argument framework in your head do you?
Let's recap a few points.
1. The purpose of this argument is about base vizards vs current base Gotei 13, specifically Love and Komamura.
2. An opponent who isn't trying to counterattack can't really be called a display of equal or comparable fighting.
Now then. X. X
X An attacker, but not a counterattack. The case above is similiar.
Now, there was a very obvious 3v1 against Halibel with both vaizards in shikai with masks, and shikai Hitsu. Do you really think that if Lisa can hold her own against Halibel in base, Halibel would've walked out of that unscathed? It's preposterous, and I'm confident you know that.
X If you'll note the next page, he says he has long been able to follow Byakuya's movements with his eyes. VCs without bankai won't last very long against a captain in a straight fight, but in 2 or more vs 1 they're quite capable of getting behind their targets, providing cover fire, or even deflecting some blows.
You're over triviliazing things to "reaitsu."
Then tell me what exactly gives Komamura the ability to tank Stark's ceros like Love did? If it's not Rei then what is it?
Anyways, you're attempt to draw a parallel at Lisa vs Harribel and Hitsugaya vs Aizen fails. How do you suppose that X Unless Harribel's been on the defensive the entire time against only one person, which would still help my case, she definitely attacked Lisa.
And I'm saying until X Lisa was fighting Harribel sealed. X. Then X. When that ends X. The off-panel battle took as long as the battle between Love, Rose, and Stark + the battle between Hachi, Soi Fon and Barragan. Got that? So she fought Harribel sealed with her mask for quite a bit of time (not sayin' she did it alone but a VC helping against an Espada is still impressive).
Renji got stronger. Do you understand now that it's not that difficult for those Captains to have gotten stronger in their base forms while they were exiled? Lisa and Hiyori did it, you certainly aren't implying that Love/Rose languished or something right?
Tank? I believe it was the zan that blocked it. Anyways, it's about how much and how concentrated one can release it. A cero's power is relative to more than a hollow's reiatsu, it uses skill as well. X Though if you don't wish to believe the example, the existance of CO shows that skill can enhance a cero.
Because it doesn't effectively show which one swung and which one parried.
Or she'd been fighting all 3, the entire time, and Lisa had her mask on, and we simply see her first.
Yes he did.
However this is not so certain, at all. Why? X Shinigami, and hollow's too, as Shawlong said. Consider Yamamoto's vice captain. He's been there longer than most captains, but he has not surpassed them. For a wall to be as high as captain level is rare and impressive. It's not at all unreasonable to think they would peak.
And one other thing. X He was masked and facing a one armed hurt Grimmjow, but this was no blitz or anything like it was it? He's commonly considered the strongest vaizard, so if anything this should show that they aren't incredibly powerful compared to a captain. Stronger, yeah, but it's not like they're senior captain level or anything.
X. So did Rose. Unless you think he pistol whipped them or something else out of the ordinary.
And also, are you trying to imply Stark doesn't have the most skill with his cero? X
So you're saying Harribel never attacked Lisa and despite that showing a momentary 1v1 situation she was on the defensive the entire time?
Lisa's still strong, nice Catch 22 you put yourself in thar
For a long time, and somehow two "VC's" managed to survive the great Halibel, ranked above the great Ulquiorra, who fodderized Ichigo Kurosaki =/.
Lisa and Hiyori were just outright much stronger than other VC counterparts. The Visoreds as a unit were just stronger.
Good, so did Lisa and Hiyori, so did Love and Rose, and Kensei as well.
Except this isn't a valid example because the Visoreds are stronger by feats and by the testimony of current Captains and Vice Captains.
Except I don't think he's the strongest Visored. Personally Love, Rose, and Kensei are all stronger than him. This is...appeal to popularity I believe. I don't like it.
CeroOskuraz, just curious, but what the hell has any of them done to make you think they're superior.
LOL @ thinking Love can defeat a Captain using Bankai with just mask. He isn't THAT far above the junior captains. Yes his base stats are higher than Komamura's but you(CO) are overestimating the amount far too greatly.
And what is up with you and all the Komamura matches you have created lately? And in all the matches you have created with him you promote that he losses them all, it's almost like you are trying to proove something?
So he did. Komamura tanked a level 90 hado from Aizen. At 1/3 of its power, that's still probably a hell of a lot more than a cero from Starrk.
Hardly. That's a skill, though really I think it was more to show Starrk's laziness. People shoot cero's out of their mouth and stuff all the time, it's not like their is an advantage to using the chest. Besides, I've told you before I don't think the guns shoot ceros that are as strong as the ones Starrk can put out himself.
Yeah, she's not an aggressive fighter. And if she had attacked Lisa there, what would've happened? That's right Hiyori and Hitsu would've stabbed her in the back.
It's getting kinda annoying how you keep trying to shift the point from their base forms to their masked forms. I've never said they aren't stronger overall have I?
See the above.
No, an appeal like that would be to say he is the strongest, wouldn't it be? I said he's thought of as, and I'm pretty sure it's true. Furthermore, I can't see a reason why it isn't true, because Shinji's shikai is stronger than the rest. As for physical abilities there isn't a reason he isn't just as strong as them before they use their zans as far as I know.
Love's Hifuki no Kodzuchi looked pretty powerful, but we don't have any actual damage feats out of it, and I do believe Starrk tanking it was only in the anime. Anyways, if it can do some serious damage, then Love wins. If not, then Komamura wins. Me personally, I'll have to side with Komamura here.
No, he definitely did not tank that attack. He was promptly one-shotted; that's not what you call tanking. And just because it's from Aizen doesn't mean it's a hell of a lot more than a bunch of ceros from Stark. Furthermore you are assuming only one cero hit Love, which is a bad assumption given that their battle lasted for the entirety of the fight against Barragan.
Then what the hell would be the point of shooting regular ceros from the guns? There would be none. Anyways, your conjecture doesn't take the place of actual feats. Stark's ceros released were stronger;
X Sure. Harribel not attacking for the duration of the fight? Bullshit.
You need to prove the bolded.
Dude, Lisa attacked Harribel in base without a mask, forced her to parry, and didn't get made mincemeat out of for the duration of a minor off-panel battle. That's easily enough to say she's above VC level.
Do you know what Hitsugaya's Shikai does to VC's? X
And Shikai Shinji without a mask was the first person to land a wound on Aizen, which is more than anyone else in the Gotei 13 apart from Yamamoto has ever done.
Power wise? We are talking from a base power standpoint; I don't think he's the strongest. Using that as a premise for your argument is begging the question, unless you'd like to prove that base Shinji > every base Visored?
Love can only hit like a gian using his zanpakuto in shikai. Komamura can punch, kick, slash, and even head butt like a giant in shikai form. Who wins for me? Obviously, Komamura.
But he did survive it, and got up a bit later.
One or two or three, it makes pretty little difference. Cero's suck, ya know?
Suppression fire, large numbers, my "conjecture" is built to make the manga flow reasonably. Of course as a manga it is not consistent, Kubo does not particularly care that much. However there can be a large difference in between two actions a person takes even one after another. Well, it is natural that theory is desired. It is not as if you can prove to me Love is stronger than Matsumoto. But that's generally supported by the evidence.
Shunsui's comments aren't particularly good evidence of the strength of the ceros. He had just performed a combo of busho gomma and takaoni after all. It doesn't particularly matter related to my point anyway.
I never said that. I said that panel doesn't show an attacker so it doesn't constitute solid evidence that masked Lisa has comparable strength to Halibel, it could simply be Halibel defending. The rest was a strawman you made and I humored you. As for the claim "it was a momentary 1v1 situation" that's just silly. Anyways, Lisa has already shown enough strength to parry a hit from Halibel, not that parrying requires the same level of brute force at all.
No, I don't.
Look, Hitsugaya's a match for Aizen in cqc! Another strawman about Hmph's argument including vizard masks! An off-panel battle that was... off-panel and I could be entirely making up!
The point is, I don't see a reason to put him under them either.
I don't have to prove my argument to you. I simply need to make it more reasonable, and Occam's Razor takes care of the rest.
Isn't that kind of irrelevant?
Look, I need to show you a durability feat for Shunsui, maybe, for you to understand Love and Rose's defense.
Anecdotal fallacy and proof by example.
No, I don't mean "what are his cero guns good for" I meant what the hell would be the point of firing individual ceros out of that gun when he can fire instant stronger ceros out of his chest. For example, X, X, or X. Explain this absurd concept to me.
No it really does; you tried to imply that Stark's base ceros are stronger than his release ceros, which makes no sense whatsoever, especially given the empirical evidence of being able to parry Takaoni and force Shunsui out of one of Katen's games.
If you agree with the bolded then that's all that we need. It's basic logic to deduce that no VC can do that, meaning base Lisa has already shown strength far beyond that of her predecessors.
Before you take back your word, X. Also, indeed it was a momentary 1v1. X
Then your argument falls under begging the question for your unproven premise for Harribel not attacking Lisa back. Do you understand what you are implying, that in the entire off-panel battle Harribel didn't attack any of her opponents even once.
You can choose to either prove your case or prove your premise.
Hey, that's a strawman too! I don't believe I ever said that!
Off-panel battles are important, because there can be cleverly deduced details that you miss. X. So nice try, but no go.
Unless you're trying to take the stance that Harribel didn't attack her foes and paid very little heed to Lisa or Hiyori, or that VCs can handle upper tier Espada, you have no case.
So then the entire tirade about Shinji was a red herring. I'm tempted to flame you.
I don't think so, it shows his tanking ability.
Cero's suck. Yes they can be powerful when used by a powerful person. Punches aren't considered good weapons, but Yamamoto still disintegrates bitches with them. But as tools in an even fight they are not effective, even shinigami brush them off easily. Do you want some examples?
They aren't instant?
No, I said the guns fire weaker ones that Starrk's. And he forced Shunsui to dodge, sure.
That was the parry I was reffering to. Notice the *gasp* mask. Also the point about parrying. As physics happily tells us, force can be broken down into vectors. Since Lisa didn't go against Halibel's thrust, only whatever arm strength she could put into it to hold it in place could stop her. If you hold something out at arm's length, it's not hard to see that your arm has a lot less strength and your body is not built for resistance of that kind of motion.
Or I can prove neither, and call it a reasonable assumption. One that is much more reasonable than saying Halibel is drawn in a 1v1 and then drawn again in a 3v1 with the same 1 in a more powerful state.
That doesn't really change anything. You're still trying to use an off-panel battle as evidence, not the after effects of one.
What tirade? The point still stands. Shinji, with mask, did not instagib base one armed wounded Grimmjow. Unless you're going to tell me Shinji is a great deal weaker than the other vizard captains, that doesn't put the vizard as particularly far above the other captains even with their masks.
Oh, and you can go ahead and flame if you want. It'll be funny.
You need to go back and edit your post accordingly with my edits
Eh, you made some Shunsui durability feats, like a point blank attack that he got back up from similiar to how the vaizards did, from a much more serious Starrk than the vaizards were fighting. X
So you are trying to say that when Stark is depressed his ceros got weaker, or somehow easier to combat, despite X
Ok, first off that's a non-sequiter, and second it's basically a case of...prove it.
No it doesn't. It shows Komamura can survive lots of tiny little cuts but he was still 1HKO'd by the thing. This isn't an endurance contest; it's one of durability.
As it stands, there were no obviously visible wounds on him. Your premise of 1/3 blast spell ninety being godly powerful despite having circular feats is invalid.
Also, do you not consider Stark to be a powerful person or something? X
Yes, I'm pretty sure a cero that comes from that guy is strong. X
Yes yes yes. Prove it.
That's not necessarily correct, you need to consider Harribel's momentum. She was going forward at Toshiro, a thrust per se, and Lisa interrupted with a downwards slash on Harribel's arm, which means she did counteract the momentum in some way. Not only would that have been fatal had she aimed somewhere else given that X but the very same panel shows Hiyori hitting Harribel and...
And I can use individual feats from their "battle" to show you that Lisa and Hiyori are far beyond VC level. I think I'll call my factually supported premise "A hunch"
No, I'm not. I'm using actual manga panels. I have citations dude, they're in the underlined links. You use those alot.
Yes, I am going to tell you that. What is wrong with it? Empirical evidence suggests it. X as X
I could also tell you how I think Mayuri is a great deal physically weaker than the other Junior Captains, but wouldn't that be irrelevant or something?
You should learn Occam's Razor.
It's possible they do, possible they don't, he still quite clearly shot Shunsui at point blank range in the back, as opposed to a much larger variety of possibilities with the vaizard.
No, it would just be circular. However the poweroutput of Aizen and of level 90 kidos implies its strength.
And we have nothing else to gauge it by. If you want to claim citing the manga doesn't constitute evidence, you shouldn't be on the battledome.
That scan doesn't show it as instant, it doesn't show him charging one but it does have the little lines made when one is charged.
But I do think its implied by the speed and number of them he can fire off.
...What? That is what a parry is, yes, she applied a second force to make thrust miss its intended target. Halibel probably would've dodged like she did with Hiyori if Lisa had targetted her.
...with their masks
And what feats? Halibel blocking?
That's hardly the same feat, Starrk actually blocked the blow and held his ground before Love jostled him off with the club's size. But if you want to say that, I'll remind you that Shinji could cut Aizen, while Love could not.
Argument with the less conjecture and more succinctness wins, I know. Let's apply it:
Except the presumption with less flaws, less to explain, less that requires a premise on the basis of making shit up, is exactly not that. How exactly are the ceros released Stark fired against Shunsui weaker than the ones fired by his base form and stronger than the ones fired against Love and Rose?
When you read your own argument it's simply absurd.
OK, then show me how exactly Komamura tanks Stark's cero.
That base Komamura is obviously above the damage output of anyone below Aizen, am I correct? Lol.
Otherwise, what's your point? Komamura didn't tank it; he was 1HKO'd by it.
Excuse me? You're the one trying to claim ceros are weak because they have a poor track record of dealing damage when you're both making shit up and just plain wrong. Have I not shown you panels of ceros injuring non-fodders?
And I think they're stronger based on the fact that it's released Stark against base Stark.
Didn't you say you liked Occam's Razor? Well here it is.
How would she have dodged? she did not react. And to perform a parry against the third Espada who consistently overpowered a Bankai Captain as a VC level fighter you need much more than a mask.
The Visored girls aren't VC level, deal with it.
Yea, cuz giving VCs masks obviously allows them to perform at a Tercero Espada level of physical strength and reactions amirite?
Halibel not overpowering them
Actually, Aizen's wound disappeared later on, giving us the impression that it was only an illusion Shinji cut. I could also show you Ichigo cutting Aizen, Soi Fon piercing Aizen, and Hitsugaya stabbing Aizen, because obviously you think cutting Aizen is a great feat
I'll remind you that Love can't even cut Stark with Tengumaru, does that mean he can't cut Stark with his sealed sword or something?
I still never said anything about his base form ya know.
The guns are his weapon, they come from his reiatsu, just like a sword, wouldn't you think. It's a simple principle to apply from there that the amount of effort he puts into them changes their firepower.
Also, you're still ignoring the point blank range point.
He stands, puts his sword out, and sucks it up.
This is absurd.
The point is he survived it, which is a durability feat all of its own.
This doesn't really answer my words or my point at all. Do you think ceros are very useful in a even matchup? Were they of any use at all for Starrk?
This is also absurd, and another misrepresentation of what I'm saying.
Did not != could not. You would not need more than a mask. Parrying does not require nearly as much force.
In a 3v1? Do you any idea what a 3v1 is like?
True, it did.
It could be seen that way, though I wouldn't support it.
Really I'm starting to lose patience here. You're just wiggling around the same few points, trying to go at them from different, boring angles.
Separate names with a comma.