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It's time to reflect on Naruto as a series and Kishi as a manga author

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki' started by Bontakun, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. Bontakun Maple Royal Guard

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    When it comes to Naruto as a series, all we ever seem to do on NF lately, myself included, is bash it and lament its fall from grace.

    But I think it was really good in some respects. And overall, it was worth all its flaws. Because Kishi dared to leave his comfort zone and deliver us the best he could do.

    So, what is Kishi good at? He's good at the Part 1 themes. Kids growing up and proving themselves. Martial arts with a fantasy twist. Ninja gag humor. High-tension subplots. He succeeded gloriously.

    What did Kishi try to do? Part 2. He tried to weave complex plots with surprise conclusions. He tried to write a thesis on world governance, geopolitics, economics, and the question of peace. He tried to write about psychological traumas and post-traumatic behavior. He tried to make mindblowingly awesome combos out of his universe's fighting systems. He fleshed out romantic relationships.

    And he didn't really succeed. His complex plots seemed like bad retcons. His theoretical discussion on world governance mainly involved Naruto shouting about peace without an ounce of problem-solving. His Uchiha psychology didn't feel natural. His "ninja war" was a boring tangle of rehashed techniques and random spontaneous ones.

    But did Naruto suck? Nah. Many of the awesome elements of Part 1 made it to part 2. The Paths of Pain were an awesome character. The destruction of Konoha was intense. And even the new things he tried to do in Part 2 that didn't quite work were good fuel for thought and discussion. (Or parody. "It was because of Rin." That still gets me laughing lololol).

    All in all, Kishi was like Rock Lee. He tried has hard as he could for his way of the artist.

    What did you think about Naruto?
     
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  2. White Wolf Butcher of Blaviken

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    I grew up with the nardo anime. I got a soft spot for the series as a whole inside. It had its flaws an a lot of them but for the most part I enjoyed it.
     
  3. ChronaSE Monochrome World

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    I mainly grew up with part 1, didn't enjoy the plot after the end of Pein invasion arc, it got pretty silly specially with the prophecy and the Uchihas being involved in everything, each pulling someone's strings creating a lot of chaos and damage than it was worth (the motive being a fake peace under a genjutsu was lame). Honestly Orochimaru made a better villain than all of the Akatsuki combined.

    The Kage summit and the elemental nations working together was interesting, rather big step for archieving peace no matter how temporal it is. Should have ended with the end of chakra/ninjutsu or at least the abolishment of the shinobi system. That's something Kishi failed at, having Naruto make promises he can't keep...
     
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  4. SoulFire! Venerable Sage

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    Naruto on the whole was not perfect, but then again I wasn't looking to read 'War and Peace'. I was looking to be entertained and Kishi continued to do that for the most part, even if things got muddled as part two went on.
    Highlights:

    Part one was solid--Naruto's first use of the multi shadow clone to save Iruka; Team 7's unexpectedly deadly first mission outside of Konoha; the events in the Forest of Death; the drama of the Chuunin Exams (both the exams themselves and the Sound invasion); the trip to find Tsunade; the Sasuke Retrieval arc; the battle at the Valley of the End. Mix that all together with an engaging ensemble cast and you have a winner!

    Part two started out strong: Gaara's abduction and the full introduction of the Akatsuki; Sakura's battle with Sasori; waterfall training; the immortals arc; Mt. Myobuku; the epic battle between Jiraiya and the six Pains; Pain's invasion of Konoha and the battle between Naruto and Pain that followed; meeting Naruto's parents. Even after the Pain arc there were parts that I enjoyed: Naruto finally commanding the Kyuubi's power; Naruto winning over the Bijuu and eventually Kurama as well; Naruto in that fine black jumpsuit (personal fav of mine :hurr). I'm sure there is more that I just can't think of right now.

    Yes, the War arc was far too long (and redundant at times). Yes, there were retcons and yes, the whole Kaguya thing felt like a last minute tack on but still, overall Naruto entertained me and kept me interested.
     
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  5. Dean Ambrose Best non-wrestler champ since HHH

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    Here's my legit thoughts:

    Part one was Kishimoto at the top of his game willing to prove something.

    Part two was Kishimoto discovering he had a cash cow and milking it.


    Some of the aspects that Naruto lost in transition was the semi fun part of being a ninja . Political talks only made the series feel like it was changing to how it started. Sure you had some issues to deal with leaders but they became too main focused. At the end of the day it was a shounen, and I wanted my action.

    Bright spot for me was FUCKING GAI! He was GOAT BOAT!


    Otherwise the end suffered immensely due to giving people what they wanted instead of writing a good ending . You could have done a prologue afterwards but certain issues felt like they were half assed at the end.

    Overall Kishi was meh of a manga writer. He's no GODA :maybe
     
  6. Biothrang Member

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    I liked it up until the beginning of the war arc. There were a lot of boring battles (Hanzo vs Mifune will forever go down in the worst, unneeded battles in history with the Kaguya battle coming right after), and not enough important character deaths like Shikimaru and Gai.

    Also, I did read that the editors had influence over the story and told Kishi to do other things which made the series go downhill. At the point of the war arc, I stopped reading it fow fun and just to read it to see how it ended.
     
  7. VHS Moderator Moderator

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    This is why the descent hurts so much though. Because Naruto was genuinely great at it's peak and the negatives were and continue to be a blemish on that. If it was mediocre from the get go there wouldn't be half as many people invested enough to bitch and bash it in the first place.

    Its highs were higher than its lows were low true, but because those low points came after the high points it felt like they superseded the good in a way, tarnishing what came before. Pain's rant to Naruto about the cycle of hatred was pretty great for instance, but it ultimately went nowhere because Kishi failed to deliver a believable answer to it.
     
  8. Drake WORK MAKES YOU FREE

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    It was a good manga overall but nothing special.

    Naruto had some decent fights, characters, and some pretty cool concepts, but ultimately Kishimoto failed to establish a deeper underlying theme and did not send any sort of significant message to the reader. A great work of fiction, whether it be an anime or a novel or a movie, should make you think once you finish it, and Naruto definitely did not do that.

    There were also a couple technical aspects that I didn't like such as the stupid power-ups towards the end of the series as well as the sloppily-handled Itachi scenario, but I still think it has the best plot out of the HST.
     
  9. SandLeaf Deathberry Uprising

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    It certainly is an inspiring series. I was crazy about it when i got into it in 2008.

    The themes introduced in part 2 wasn't bad, I'm alright with them evolving in that direction its just that the plot got messy. Plot holes and retcons that were really annoying. There certainly were a lot of them, but then again Naruto is a LONG series with a lot of content to consider and the question is does the good outweigh all that bad stuff?

    Im talking about only the story, though. The action and designs were brilliant but the story is whats important. The characters i cared a lot about but the story got more and more problematic as it went along.
     
  10. oMeGa1904 Will of Hatred

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    Naruto as a series failed cause it was a shounen. I mean i don't understand why Kishi put "peace" as his main goal or theme in this manga. This thing is overly complicated and only works in seinen context. Naruto settings are far more relatable as a feudal Japan and feudal morality, and grey world. No "good vs bad", just ninjas. Sure Naruto could become the goodie as everyone wants him to be, but in this case he'd be more a wrong Genre Savvy, not completely but someone who could be admired still. This dichotomy pushing down to our throats have bad taste. Should have stayed with the ninja stuffs. Conflict between ninja villages. Challenging Naruto in concepts like WoF, pit him against Danzo, who is loyal to that dogma, and yet he represents what happens when you push it too far. Meeting new people, specially from Amegakure, who are less fortunate and see from their perspective, what Pain tried to do and why. I don't mind he winning more than half his battles or if he's too goodie goodie. What i mind is if he's challenged in his ideas in this grey world. There are infinite ways to do this. Not the lame 4th Ninja World War.
     
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  11. Bontakun Maple Royal Guard

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    He stretched it for money? I could see that being the case.

    Are you trying to start a war? :maybe One Piece hasn't finished yet you know. What if it turns out that Obitobuggy was manipulating the World Government all along and "It's because of Kuina"?, and Akainu was a good guy who had to carry out the Whitebeard massacre to protect the honor of the D's? :maybe

    When you describe everything like that it makes it clear how great Naruto was. Brings back memories.

    So true. It's THE shit and a PIECE of shit all in one!

    It's certainly the most plot ORIENTED of the HST. Bleach leaned more towards showcasing characters and styles, and One Piece leaned more towards high emotion and world building. I like plot. Gives you things to think about.

    Yes, would've been good if Naruto stayed a ninja and did the best he could as a soldier, a citizen, a friend. Jesus-ruto was really not a convincing leader.
     
  12. Lucaniel non serviam

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    lol this is bullshit, kishi was clearly asleep at the wheel or letting his assistants draw for him for a huge portion of the manga. just pulling out contrived plot twists and bullshit jutsus in order to keep the story going

    how in the hell you can claim naruto was "worth all its flaws" when you yourself admit part 2 was pretty much a complete failure is beyond me. part 2 is well over half the entire manga.
    you sound like someone in the grip of extreme cognitive dissonance. everything in the preceding paragraph supports the conclusion that naruto sucked. your succeeding attempts to mitigate that are hilariously unconvincing

    all in all, kishi was like any other mentally limited hack with a decent idea that he couldn't develop into anything more than generic shonen stuff.

    the only thing setting him apart from his lazy idiot contemporaries like kubo or akira amano might be that he had extreme delusions of grandeur which led him to believe he could write some grand statement about war, peace, cycles of hatred, and an analysis of human conflict, when his skills actually stopped at writing soap operas
     
  13. Keishin Well-Known Member

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    Naruto has to be the only manga where I ever read how people appreciate the "unique" world Kishimoto build and how people prefer all the great side characters that he created but can't give any examples of what they mean.
     
  14. Lord Trollbias All Hail Lord Yagura

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    Great at its peak and then crashed horribly around the middle to the end. Wasted potential.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  15. Bontakun Maple Royal Guard

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    Part 2 had really good moments. Good action and characters in Pain and Sasori. Good philosophical discussion in Hashirama flashbacks. If there weren't all these Uchiha villains with questionable motives towards the end, it might have been a good read. If part 2 averages out to totally neutral and part 1 was good, then overall the series leans towards good.
     
  16. Lucaniel non serviam

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    except it doesn't
    two of the 150 new characters being good and 10 chapters of good "philosophical discussions" don't outweigh the hundreds of chapters of pure shit
     
  17. Seraphoenix Kaladin Stormblessed

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    If you're looking at it from the prism of a shounen manga aimed at teenagers then it was worth it. Part 1 was great and Part 2 had a drop in quality with the cycle of hatred, reincarnation, asspull Madara and Space aliens. I also didn't really expect any sort of compelling answer to things such as the problem of suffering or evil. You're best off reading actual philosophy for that.

    If you're comparing it to things like the Brothers Karamazov or War and Peace then of course Kishi is going to lose out. Using the same kind of standard is pretty stupid in the first place. They have totally different target audiences.

    If you didn't manage your expectations then that's your own fault.
     
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  18. Lucaniel non serviam

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    what a gay ass straw man
    naruto is shit compared to shonen manga aimed at teenagers like kekkaishi or fullmetal alchemist or slam dunk, nobody needs to bring up actual works of literature to notice that part 2 has catastrophic failures in everything from characterisation to the constant plot holes and DEMs and out-of-nowhere, unforeshadowed plot twists. it dragged on twice as long as it should have, it failed to provide satisfying resolutions to anyone smarter than a toddler, and it was generally a boring, irritating slog. part 1 being a solid shonen manga isn't going to outweigh that considering naruto is like 700 chapters and only about 240 of those were part 1

    "manage your expectations" is a meaningless argument. if you manage your expectations so that any manga is great as long as the experience of reading it is superior to the experience of being punched in the balls, then you'll be happy with pretty much anything. and it looks like you are. so good for you
     
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  19. Seraphoenix Kaladin Stormblessed

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    Did I trigger you Luc-kun?

    I never said it was the best, I said it was worth it in that context. It seems either something is good to you or it's utter shit. Manga like One Piece and FMA are better than Naruto but that does not mean I didn't enjoy Naruto for the most part.

    I enjoyed most of it up to around Minato's Kyuubi Flashback which is around chapter 503. Were there stupid things like Sakura's 'confession' and Naruto's talk no jutsu of Nagato? sure, but it was still somewhat enjoyable.

    The story took a sharp turn when Obito and Madara took over imo. Madara especially seemed like a hacked character in a video game and the war raged on for far too long. Those 180 chapters or so were shit, I won't argue against that assessment.


    It's not a meaningless argument. It's just an argument you don't like because it gets in the way of your tantrum. You talk about a strawman while deliberately misconstruing my position and then criticising that false narrative.

    If I get into a medium priced car, I'm not going to judge it based on my experiences gleaned from being in a higher priced car. Similarly I'm going to be more forgiving of my assessment of a shounen for plot holes and a bloated arc if the previous 70% was worth it for me.

    That way I won't be too disappointed if it doesn't compare to far better things I've read or watched. It's also prevents me from making stupid statements like 'failed to provide satisfying resolutions to anyone smarter than a toddler' or 'any manga is great as long as the experience of reading it is superior to the experience of being punched in the balls, then you'll be happy with pretty much anything'.

    In any event you clearly believe the whole of part 2 utter shit so there is no point in continuing, because you won't be convinced otherwise and I won't budge from my position either.
     
  20. Lucaniel non serviam

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    oh damn he eviscerated my garbage argument i b-better use my special move U MAD

    >enjoying the five kage summit arc
    i can see you've thoroughly managed your expectations
    "hey naruto just hyperventilated and actually fainted from hearing that his not-friend was in trouble...but this sure is better than being punched in the face. 10/10 - ign"
    your position is that naruto will look bad if you compare it to tolstoy but it's "worth it" otherwise lol. your position is retarded, it doesn't need any misconstruing to be shat on. and by assuming everyone criticising naruto was comparing it to literature in the first place, you were very obviously the one misconstruing people's positions

    that doesn't even make sense in the context of your own analogy because you're reading the same manga which has just gotten worse, it's not a different "car". your argument just did a total 180 from "use different standards for different things" to "judge the bad parts of something more leniently if it previously had good parts". those are totally different arguments

    wew lad this is why we need to fund debate training
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  21. Seraphoenix Kaladin Stormblessed

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    Edgy as ever huh. Pretty delusional if you think you eviscerated anything.


    I already said that there were stupid things like Sakura's confession. Naruto hyperventilating would also fall under that. Keep on with your delusional narrative though.

    Still not seeing how everything before the war arc is utter shit. There were cracks before but the war arc exploded with horseshit that could not be excused.


    I never assumed everyone was comparing it to literature. I said 'íf'. Learn to read. If you didn't form part of the 'if' then obviously I was not fucking talking about you. Again you're criticising something I never said and talk about debating skills lmao.



    It does because you would compare it with cars in the same class. Was it the best? No but it wasn't on average utter shit when compared to other shounen. You're arguing about the accuracy of the analogy while completely missing the general precept arising out of it. strong comprehension skills. Next time I'll make the leap from higher priced car>average priced car>other average priced cars, for you since it seems the last step eluded you.

    You're projecting. You're not nearly as competent as you seem to believe. I smell Dunning-Kruger.
     
  22. Lucaniel non serviam

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    cmon son everyone and their mother can see that you set up a false dichotomy of "if you manage expectations then naruto is good and if you compare it to literature than naruto is bad" which implicitly assumed everyone who thinks naruto is bad was comparing it to literature
    you even concluded with "if you didn't manage expectations then it's your own fault" as if everyone who correctly thought naruto was overall bad was just suffering from having too high expectations
    your argument is shit
    ????
    damn dude
    you cannot read
    i already shat on your "general precept" and pointed out that the specific argument you used there was different to that general precept
    god damn
    rip
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  23. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Naruto has too much wasted potential to forgive for my tastes.
     
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  24. Keishin Well-Known Member

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    Most of part 2 was super dry, the side characters were practically nonexistant from that point on.
     
  25. Dragon D. Luffy You can only cry when it's all over.

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  26. Imagine //\\

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    This would all have to hinge on the quality of part 1 because in no way shape or form could you argue that part 2 didn't drag the series into suckage after mentioning all of this. Everything Kishi tried to do ending up in disaster. Basically your own words.

    :psyduck

    You pretty much said the series was bad but then went back and said it's still good tho
     
  27. Pocalypse Return of the God

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    This was the only worthwhile moment in Part 2 but everything else sucked and one or two moments here or there (I myself liked some bits from the Kumo arc like the Minato flashback) isn't enough to say Naruto didn't suck in Part 2 cuz well, it's over 400 chapters worth of content which is far bigger than Part 1.

    > Kage Summit arc was shit.
    > Entire war (185 fucking chapters, that's about 75% of Part 1) was a huge pile of shit. I wish I could reference this dude who wrote an epic post on how shit the war was but I'd have to find it in the Library...seriously, everything was spot on.
    > Two Sasuke retrieval arcs were shit.
    > Hidan and Kakuzu arc was bland and its potential was wasted.
    > Gaara arc was alright.
     
  28. fuff ?

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    naruto is prob one of the only anime that shows why a villain is villain, something triggered that path of life. unlike dbz where they just want to take over the world
     
  29. Atlas Well-Known Member

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    The only things I can remember enjoying in part two was Deidara, Tobi, Sasori and Kisame.
     
  30. Seraphoenix Kaladin Stormblessed

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    I see you continue to make a spectacle of your foolishness. This is going to be my last post on this matter because you are clearly out of your depth Luc-kun.

    It's a false dichotomy if you're fucking illiterate. How many times are you going to fanfic my position, argue against that false position, and then pat yourself on the back like you refuted anything like some buffoon?

    The first paragraph spoke in the context of assessing Naruto in terms of shounen manga. I said that in that context it was worth it.

    The second paragraph spoke in the context of someone looking at it through the lens of high literature. I said there it would probably not be worth it in that context.

    Neither of these positions is an absolutist position as 1. I used the word 'if' which implies there are other means to assess Naruto and 2. it was framed as an opinion that anyone is free to disagree with.

    eg: Hey Sera I disagree with position 1. Naruto is not worth it in the context of shounen manga

    or

    Hey Sera I disagree with position 2. Kishi is right up there with anything from Nabokov.

    That second paragraph literally takes the form of ''if you are x then in all likelihood...'' this does not in any manner mean it includes a,b,c,d etc. You took that to mean I was grouping everyone who has a negative opinion of Naruto in that x. Do you even logic? Post 3 and you are still pushing this stupidity. You fucking had the temerity to talk about debating skill when you can't even accurately assess someone's position, when it is even the least bit nuanced. Especially when the first paragraph completely 'eviscerates' that criticism.

    I said I liked everything as a whole until Minato's flashback. I said there were stupid things. You then mentioned the Kage arc and mentioned one of the things I would qualify as stupid. If you had some sense you would have realised that we agree there were stupid things, but whereas I thought they did not rise to arc ruining level, you obviously thought they did.

    It's also amusing that you went from ''all of part 2 is shit'' to not presenting any argument against anything but the war (I'm assuming based on you not disagreeing with me saying it was shit) and the kage arc.

    The only thing you shat on was your deluded reading of the analogy.

    Like I said above, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you could make the leap from high priced car>average priced car>other average priced cars. You didn't, got stuck on the first step and then 'shat' on that limited understanding of what I was saying.

    The argument of not comparing a higher priced car to a medium priced car is basically my second paragraph in my first post.

    The implied argument that you compare it to other medium priced cars is my position in paragraph one of my first post.

    Are your faculties so limited that I must lower myself so far for you to even get a whiff of understanding? At this point either you are arrogantly intellectually inept or you are intellectually dishonest. It looks increasingly like the former. You are better off ragging on the regular mutants you find in this place or shitposting memes with that other mouth breather. I have no interest in some fledgling.
     
  31. Lucaniel non serviam

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  32. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    Overall they both suck but the anime team made part 1 so good it might go down in anime top ten.
     
  33. Seraphoenix Kaladin Stormblessed

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  34. Crimson Flam3s Rampage Sage

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    To be fair, everything up to the pain arc was pretty good, although no part 1 quality but it was still up there. Immortals arc was great as well with asuma's death and how we see shikamaru dealing with that.

    I feel kishimoto needed to expand more on Naruto's character through more defeat and give us a glimpse of how he dealt with it, a glimpse to his thoughts, give him a bit more of complexity.
     
  35. Dean Ambrose Best non-wrestler champ since HHH

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    I mean at some points it felt like the flashbacks were extended wayyy to long just to try to fill in time to get to the war. The war itself felt very underwhelming too :zaru

    You son of a bitch :maybe
     
  36. Sir Jogga King of Inanity

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    Best parts of the manga was the characters. Naruto's cast in part 1 was ripe for character exploration, they all had dynamic and distinguishing designs, and every character just worked off of each other.

    That's why it's so unforgivable see them be wasted like that. Such stupid directions botching my enjoyment of their character progression. All of the intrigue slowly got sapped away.

    And it basically applies to the whole series.

    @Seto Kaiba was right
     
  37. HoroHoro ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    "Masashi Kishimoto can't seem to be subtle about the whole "REVENGE IS BAD" thing, to the point that it's taken over the story for at least a year. And apparently, he doesn't know the difference between 'revenge' and 'making them face justice for their crimes' either.

    Nor how Friendship, no matter how misguided or simple, is worth suffering abuse and prejudice out of fear and how always cherishing the union with your fellow villagers can help you win against the most Manipulative Bastard Big Bad and any other village out there, how you shouldn't ever leave it for whatever reason, and that any objective you might have in your life must be focused solely on the village's greatness. It comes close to Nazi Propaganda, Communism Philosophy or American Ultra-Nationalism.

    And Minato drives it home when he practically spells out to Kushina his village is more important than his family or his child's future life. He didn't use these exact words, but what he said was just enough of a Wall Banger to be interpreted this way.

    And it doesn't help the fact that when Pain finally screams What The Hell Hero at Tsunade and the Leaf Village, after all he fought and desired, gets charmed into sacrifice by Naruto's rather childish notions, taken from Jiraya's self-proclaimed childish first book(whose character was based on none other than Nagato/Pain himself). So, all his notions of Peace Through Pain simply vanished away to Naruto's preaching, after he accused Naruto of thinking himself the only one worthy of preaching on peace and justice? Wallbanger Switch on, anyone?"

    - TvTropes
     
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  38. SupremeKage ......

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    Because of HxH's hiatus, Kishi ran out of things to rip off on
     
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  39. Sharingonsandninja S H A R I N G A N S A N D

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    I thought it was a masterpiece. I've avoided all discussions on this topic outside of my real life friendships, and this is the conclusion we have come to. One thing I've learned over the years is that people are like sponges. They absorb what people are saying around them, and that is especially true if the information is cynical. However if one is to go in to the series not swayed by others, there own conclusions would be significantly different from what they read online. Of course I acknowledge we are all different, and one mans trash is another mans treasure if you will.

    My thoughts are that the character and plot development outside of anything filler related were very good. It had a nice touch of that anime comedy, but not so much so that is became annoying. As the series progressed it became darker and darker. There was a lot of closure toward the end with tying up the loose ends in the fates of the characters. And who can deny the many tear jerker moments. I doubt many of us could do a better job in satisfying a massive fan base.

    In the end, I am a Naruto and by extension "Kishi" fan through and through. :thumbsup
     
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  40. Keishin Well-Known Member

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    The war arc is potentially the worst arc in all of shounen. . . Masterpiece my ass :loool
     
  41. ThatGreekLady No Place Like Home

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    The final war arc was so bad. I pointed it out to my brother who is a major fanboy and he disagreed, however even he admitted some parts of the war were cringeworthy. I actually liked everything up until Sasuke went full retard and joinned the akatsuki. That was the moment when the series started going downhill.
     
  42. sanduice Active Member

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    What more can I say? Shippuden feels are very different from the first part. Part 1 and part 2 could be completly different mangas with different characters that would be better. The proposal of the story was lost, and the characters didn't developed in a way that makes sense. The fights were not strategic, but explosions. Not even the worldbuilding was done properly.

    Even so, with all flaws, Naruto will always have a place on my heart, nostalgia plays a great role on it. But as a whole, the manga is avarage.
     

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