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in the spirit of transparency

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by aiyanah, Dec 20, 2016.

  1. Toby Detective Dollars Advisor

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    Something like the bolded is being discussed right now

    Regarding your proposal for using "justices", are those only mods, regular members, or a mix of both?

    Who appoints the committee?

    I see this as a method that can be slower than the current system, although it may be more lenient. That's what you want, right? Or a more democratic system? It won't be consistent if the committee members change every time. A regular section mod will more or less rule the same way every time they run a section in my experience.

    Out of curiosity, does any website practice this method or is this your own idea?

    The knowledge burden is immense. We had a strike system and a generally agreed upon ban scaling system which some mods follow, but others don't.

    Any system that intends to be systematic is draining on mods who have to supply evidence every time.
     
  2. aiyanah finesse

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    -current staff appoint the committee

    -its only staff members in said committee cause i doubt anyone is keen on seeing regular members on it

    -the current system is already slow, slam dunk cases shouldn't have to run a gauntlet through the committee but the committee will exist to handle grey area's and whatever amount of members necessary for the instance will participate (green - 1, blue - 3, yellow - 5, orange - 7, red - 9)

    -the committee exists to facilitate decision making, in the case of the justices its only for disciplinary cases, the number of participating is kept odd to ensure decisions are made one way or the other

    -the goal isn't leniency, just consistency and a clear path of logic, the only knowledge thats needed is the rules and whatever loopholes may or may not exist in them, it doesn't matter if advisors/smods/admins/section mods are in the committee cause they aren't meant to be the muscle to perform a task

    -the knowledge burden on the entire staff goes down if the entire system is opted into (promo and philosophy committee included)

    -staff in the same section most certainly do not come to the same rulings, this is why consistency is being demanded

    -if any other site uses this then i'm keen to visit that site cause i generally only browse nf, youtube and a select few sports blogs with some sports journos mixed in

    -the current system is draining on everyone and not only when it relates to discipline but literally all facets of the board
    should we make ava sizes larger, should we change permitted sig space, should the rep calcs change, should x rating be enabled/disabled, should posts count in x section, should this permed member be unbanned; all of that would fall towards the philosophy committee with an overlap for unbanning members with the justice committee

    -ideally the promo committee is decided on first (slam dunk wit preetus and rez most likely) and they'll go forward and assign staff to the other committee's

    i should say again that the knowledge burden actually drops with this in place, knowledge burden is so high right now cause more value is placed on section culture and rules than the general rules, this makes it impossible for someone who isn't a regular to judge misconduct in x or y section
    all things being fair the suggested system is more harsh than the current system because section rules and culture stop mattering and there's less room to bend the rules as one see's fit

    if overlap is desired then appoint one mod, whomsoever has the most natural sense of justice out of each team of mods in a section, to the committee, this is the logical way to build it imo
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  3. aiyanah finesse

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    do note that the theorycrafting occurred with all committee's in play
     
  4. Lucaniel non serviam

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    it's just us








    get it?
     
  5. VAK Reformed flamer...

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    So what I'm confused would there be like NF jury duty or soemthing?
     
  6. aiyanah finesse

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    hell no
     
  7. Zyrax Pasha Doppio gets me Uppio

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    I love how 12 or something years of shitty Management is appearantly one Guys fault
     
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  8. aiyanah finesse

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    they dont see it bruv, they think this nigga running their show when he aint even around dawg
     
  9. wat im wit it

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    I think my biggest grievance is the rebuttal "if someone has broken the rules, report it"

    It's funny because in doing so the staff has effectively shifted the burden of responsibility onto us as members. I get that staff can't see every single post in their sections but they should most certainly see most. Reporting (which is viewed by many as a cowardly act; snitching) should be auxiliary to modding, not the metaphorical ignition in the key.

    I get that doing so allows for more judgement calls which allows human arbitrating and contextual interpretation of offenses, which is good, but can absolutely allow the possibility of corruption.

    Ex. 1

    Member A and Member B start baiting each other with maybe some mild flame, but staff-in-charge knows the two members are friends or chummy with each other. So they're probably not gonna get in trouble over what's likely banter regardless of reports or not.

    Ex. 2

    Member A and Member C start baiting and flaming each other. They've clearly stepped over the line.

    Now is the staff-in-charge going to wait for a report to intervene or will they be proactive?

    I think that's the monkey wrench in this particular issue. I don't recall who it was when they suggested it earlier ITT but I remember frowning because reallocating that responsibility onto us as members is one of the biggest contributors into inconsistent modding because it allows staff to ignore blatant offenses UNTIL there's a particular case they want to intervene in which may incubate favoritism and then that's a problem.

    Think of the staff like the police in real life. Sure, the citizens have a responsibility to report crimes and all but the staff should still definitely have patrols.
     
  10. Handsome Yak gefühlvoll und sanft.

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    I agree that the staff shouldn't wait it out on a report to act, if possible they should be proactive to even prevent escalation to the point where a report is even required.

    However, the users should always use the report function regardless and in their own best interest, because it is hard to determine which posts in which section the mod actually saw and read through and which not. Regardless of the issue, the report also alerts the mod to the fact that it isn't just some casual minor incident that either side would otherwise just brush off their jackets and then move on as if nothing major happened; the report ensures that at least one party in the situation seriously feels offended (assuming the report function is used as intended and not abused) and that the matter at hand is worth investigating further.

    It is also far more unlikely that the mod overlooked the report than overlooking a post in a section that - for whatever reason - he does not frequent by and large. If no reaction is coming the user can at least state that he reported and followed his part of the responsibilities. This ain't no free pass to continue of course but at least takes responsibility off his or her shoulders should the opposing side wish to continue the argument or harrasment or whatever is going on. Just don't reengage even if it's hard to maintain the higher ground at times (I sure as hell failed the last part myself several times).
     
  11. Law Godfather Moderator

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    No one waits for a report before acting. If they see it, they act. Reports draw attention to something that may otherwise not be seen.

    Believing otherwise is willful ignorance.
     
  12. wat im wit it

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    I agree but remember that it's not only the participating offenders who report posters (in fact, logic should dictate it's usually someone not-involved?)

    That may be your modding style, but I can assure you that plenty of staff have turned a blind eye to blatant offenses more than once.

    Believing otherwise is woeful ignorance.
     
  13. Law Godfather Moderator

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    I believe that you believe that. But I'm not the one who's truly ignorant.
     
  14. wat im wit it

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    lol u rite

    i guess im a cynic for not believing that the staff has been infallible
     
  15. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    part of the reason we want people to report things is so that we have an idea of what people prioritise, if nobody bothers to report stuff like spam then spam doesn't need to be a priority for when we do our own patrols or w.e. Now there's a bit of give and take here in that we can influence what kind of stuff people report but it's a good litmus test for "do people actually care about this issue"

    people get reported for flaming all the time, so flaming is a concern that we search and destroy

    people get reported for rep abuse very rarely, so we don't need to keep an eagle eye on that unless someone comes to us with a specific problem

    and so on, adjust for the section in question

    the other part is, as you said, spreading the load so that mods don't have to read literally every thread on the forum at odd hours of the day. For instance if you report things then I can deal with them as a batch immediately when I wake up in the morning instead of having to read through posts that happened while I was asleep. It doesn't necessarily have to be reports btw, the obd has developed into a habit where they tag me in the thread if they think it needs my attention and that works just as well. It's basically just a flag to say hey, focus here, we care about this more than other stuff right now.
     
  16. Handsome Yak gefühlvoll und sanft.

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    True. I was arguing the ideal case but realistically everyone has to always compromise on one thing or another. Not that it is a good thing or one to be desired, it's just... realistic.

    That said, it depends largely on the staff here to determine what action is to be taken and what is the best approach even if the report comes from someone who is totally not involved or even gets offended on behalf of either or both parties even if neither of the actual participants cares. The staff member has to look at the situation and make a decision.

    Sadly - and I say this with absolutely zero offensive intention - being socially competent is not one of the strengths of the NF staff. And I include myself here as well even though I'm not on the team anymore. Having a sound and balanced measure about what action to take, whom to punish, how to punish, when to let things slide completely, when to be preemptive or when a jokingly verbal pat on the shoulder is sufficient is in reality fucking hard to do. Especially since there are so many different opinions on these matters (I am not necessarily including the entire staff body but some sections have more than one mod and even with only two it sometimes is so hard to reach a concensus). I was part of that problem, too, even as an advisor I sometimes relayed topics to other staff members' attention that really weren't part of my responsibilities anymore. I did it on behalf of user requests but still, the better approach would've been to reject it and ask the people to directly contact the mod responsible.

    So yeah, the burden of the action lies with the staff in my opinion and it's something NF definitely needs to improve on among other things.

    In that regard I really liked aiyanah's topic about dividing the staff responsibilities more into different departments so that the entire body isn't so globally overexposed to all kinds of shit and burns itself out.
     
  17. aiyanah finesse

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    is there progress on this in the backroom?
     
  18. Zyrax Pasha Doppio gets me Uppio

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    >tfw the Staff just admitted supporting Mob Mentality
     
  19. wat im wit it

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    [trip hop blares in the distance]
     
  20. Handsome Yak gefühlvoll und sanft.

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    America is an irradiated wasteland.
    Within it lies a forum.
    Outside the boundary walls a desert.
    A cursed earth.
    Inside the walls a cursed domain.
    An unbroken concrete landscape.
    living in the ruin of the old world
    and the mega structures of the new one.
    Mega blocks. Mega highways.
    Naruto Forums One.
    Convulsing. Choking.
    Breaking under its own weight.
    Citizens in fear of the street.
    The gun. The gang.
    Only one thing
    fighting for order in the chaos,
    the men and women of the Hall of Justice.
    Juries.
    Executioners.
    MODS.


    Twelve serious crimes
    reported every minute.
    - We can respond to around 6 %.
    - Which 6 %?
    Your show, rookie. You tell me.
     

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