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How to write female characters.

Discussion in 'Boku no Hero Academia' started by Dragon D. Luffy, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    We must be reading the wrong manga, because Lee was facepalming over that scene, and no one looked happy when she forced a hug on Naruto.

    I read something completely, so don't make something up. I recall Kishimoto's words once said, and I am paraphrasing here: "if Sakura just gave up her feelings for Sasuke and wanted to be with Naruto, it'd make her a terrible person". And given the way she tried to work her fake confession, I'd agree in part.

    Was it not written well? Yes. Was it still consistent with Sakura's character, regardless? Yes. Would it be out-of-character and horribly damaging to the character if one day she woke up and decided: "Screw Sasuke, he's a criminal; I wanna be with the village hero"? Yes.

    Yep, we definitely didn't read the same manga. Either that, or we have different definitions of what mutuality in a relationship means.

    The way you have made it sound for the past two pages is if "caring about the American dream Hokage dream" is somehow super-important to an actual relationship, rather than, say, caring about and loving the person for who they are. That is the thing about Hinata: she never tried to idealize Naruto, nor tried to make him conform to what she wanted him to be, nor ever only crushed on him because "oooohh, he's so hawt and cool".

    She saw Naruto for who he is at his core: a lonely boy without family who, despite failing many times, would always get back up and try again, and try to be better. His ethos was also inspirational for Hinata, who had been bullied and lacked in confidence before she met Naruto, and was something she realistically still had problems with for some time.

    In turn, she helped Naruto get his confidence back before his fight with Neji, when he was starting to doubt himself, and she was the person who brought Naruto back from the brink of despair after Neji's death. It is their interactions and the honesty in those interactions that gives a sense of mutuality between the two characters and, more importantly, makes them believable.
     
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  2. Tayimus Number One

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    Even as a NaruSaku-shipper, I agree with @Catalyst75.
     
  3. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    1. Because he wanted that pussy
    2. Are you stupid? In 2 databooks as well as from other characters and a novel ending and word of god its stated she is in love with Naruto she went with Sasuke because she didn't want to take him away from Hinata. Kishi flat out said if she chose Naruto she would be cruel to Hinata not Sasuke....and on top of all of that the 2nd databook refers to her as saying that her love for Sasuke is just childish infatuation not real love at all....Saying she's a terrible for not constantly obsessing over a murderer who never reciprocated her feelings even after they got married doesn't make her a terrible person it makes her a pretty fucking logical human being. It wouldn't mean she said fuck that guy let him rot and even then if thats your argument she tried to murder him so she ended up doing that anyway. Literally all of your arguments collapse in on their own stupidity. It wouldn't be terrible writing eitehr since she's had alot more genuine moments with Naruto then she ever did with Sasuke.
    3. It shows that Hinata had no care about what Naruto wanted. She never even thought about it. If she did he would be hokage in that...
    4. and she did absolutely nothing to try and change that....which makes her just as bad as everyone else. It was Team 7 that saved him from loneliness not Hinata
    5. No it was Kurama....

    Nobody asked.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  4. KingForever7 World's #1 Kiba Inuzuka Fanboy

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  5. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    Right, and this supposedly makes you so knowledgeable of characters. Take that trash somewhere else.

    Right now, you are just lashing out. Depending on the databooks is not a good way to construct the argument in comparison to the manga proper, unless the databooks detail supplementary material not included in the actual manga.

    No one is denying that the whole relationship was not written well, and no one is denying that it could have been handled a lot better. The problem is that you are so narrow-mindedly fixated on just specific moments that you fail to see the bigger picture. That you fail to acknowledge that, yes, there actually were moments where Sasuke reciprocated Sakura's emotions for him, including when he thanked her shortly before leaving Konoha, and the time when she broke Sasuke out of his Cursed Mark-induced rage.

    What you are also forgetting is the other side of the equation: Naruto knows that Sakura likes Sasuke, AND HE ACCEPTS THAT. Why else do you think Naruto called her out on what he knew to be a lie when she "confessed her love to him"? Naruto knew how much Sakura loved Sasuke, so of course he would not buy that she suddenly fell for him just like that. If he fell for it like some shallow sucker, that would be horrendous and out-of-character on his part.

    By the time that even came around, Naruto knew that there was a metric ton more at stake in regards to Sasuke - he understood more about why Sasuke had went down the path that he did.

    All of it could have been handled better written, but it also could have been a hell of a lot worse (think Twilight-levels of worse).

    X

    And Neji also happens to be alive in that. What was it you said: "Her cousin's death was overlooked seconds after it happened"? That is dead wrong considering that, not to mention the subsequent two chapters where Neji's death was a focal point of development and symbolism (the Shinobi Alliance Bird Formation, if you'll recall).

    Not to mention that, during "The Last", after Toneri stole Hanabi's eyes, Hinata was dead-set on getting them back, going so far as to personally rip them out of Toneri's sockets.

    For that matter, as Naruto pointed out, Infinite Tsukiyomi was just an illusion - a fake world. I suppose you define everyone else whose visions we saw based solely on said visions.

    I did not bring up the topic, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to protest here. I am only citing things in the context of the character interactions between Naruto and Hinata. For you to assume that my talking about that somehow means that I believe "Hinata saved Naruto from loneliness" is quite a stretch.

    It almost makes me understand why you are in the red for reputation.

    BTW, I might as well point out that Iruka and Teuchi got there first in regards to what Naruto wanted most when he was younger: to be treated like a person and to be loved by the people around him, at a time when the rest of the village hated and despised him because they saw him as no different from the Kyuubi.

    The fact that Hinata was also one of those few people who saw Naruto for who he is, and did not treat him as the rest of the village did, was quite important in "The Last".

    Hinata was the one who first pulled him back from the brink, and Kurama further bolstered Naruto's resolve with his own words.
     
  6. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    1. Do you really not know Lee has the hots for Sakura?
    2. She would have to want hom to be dead for him to be dead in her dream
    3. No he literally never recipicorated. She snapped him out of it because nakama reasons he did the same thing with Yoroi it was about Team 7 not her. He literally tried to killer her multiple times verabally abused her left her to die and said hes not interested in her at the very end....youd have to be next level retarded if you think he is at all in love with her even now
    4. The Last retconned that...that literally never happened in the 15 years of manga we got because she was always sn irrelevant piece to the story compared yo Team 7 and Iruka. Hinata did nothing to help Naruto feel less alone giving her special treatment because of it is a terrible thing
    5. Which others have done in other instances would have done there and have made more of an impact on Naruto in the long run
     
  7. SoulFire! Venerable Sage

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    I see that the salt continues to flow...:offtopic:salty
     
  8. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    Except for ya'know
    >Me stating simple points
    >Him being the getting off-topic

    point is dumb on two levels.
     
  9. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    You mean your incensed rants about how bad Hinata is happens to be you "stating simple points" and weren't "off-topic" already?

    @SoulFire! When you have a thread with such a general title, and compares two characters from two different series, things were bound to get to this point that two female characters from one series are getting compared to one another.
     
  10. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    That's right since the discussion was already about her to begin with.

    Especially since romance was the direct comparison in the OP
     
  11. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the discussion initially compared Ochako and Sakura.

    You wouldn't shut up about how bad you thought Hinata was since page 2.
     
  12. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    When she was already brought up since then. The topic moved along then the discussion moved back to her and before I rejoined the discussion so no my point still stands.
     
  13. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    By Mizura, but you quoted the OP and then vented about Hinata. That is what brought her back into the discussion.
     
  14. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    No venting involved I stated a simple fact and was throwing in my two cents same with other people doing the same with other Naruto females being brought up. Hinata doesn't get a pass on that because she's your special hime. The irony ofcourse in this discussion is that you yourself are getting off-topic on a discussion to vent about something you yourself have a problem with. You're your own worst enemy here.
     
  15. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    Nah, I think this sounds like venting, especially with the continual nitpicking of Infinite Tsukiyomi. Also, the accusation that "Hinata has a straight up addiction" kind of gives it all away.

    Hinata was inspired by Naruto's example to better herself. That is more than can be said for the worse love interests out there. In fact, that is kind of in line with Ochako herself, who herself was inspired by Izuku's drive.
     
  16. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    She does though. When literally 3/ths of her dialogue is saying the name of a boy she barely even knows anything about, her dream being to be his house wife when her family has fuckin slavery issues to take care of and caring more about scarf knitting and his attention than her sister's own life....yeah she's addictive

    Sakura was also inspired by Naruto to better herself the difference being she didn't need it to be her own emotional drive and actually attempted to better herself and made some actual accomplishments...no such luck with Hinata. On top of that your only basis of comparison is admiring the main character which could be compared to nearly everyone in Naruto not just Hinata. Main difference being Ochaka's admiration gradual and she doesn't need to be dependent on looking up to him since her original goal was to help out her family. Naruto is literally all Hinata thinks about. Its not even a matter of admiration whenever Hinata is onscreen she only ever thinks of him. If you're going to make a comparison Hinata is an even worse one than Sakura.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  17. Tayimus Number One

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    That this debate is still going on is impressive..
     
  18. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    Considering the context of the thread not really. Any other Nardo related controversial thread this would be reaching page 10 by now.
     
  19. Zensuki You're annoying

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    Me highlighting the piss poor exposition in the OP is exactly to the point. You placing a dubious jpeg as a response has no point.
     
  20. SoulFire! Venerable Sage

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    I think this thread meant to be about the discussion of how well Hori writes female characters in BnHA and not a platform for denigrating the female characters one hates (whether justified or not) from other manga. Basically, this thread had been hijacked and turned into an anti-Hinata rant. Which is why I haven't participated with a LAP thus far.

    As I said before, I come here for BnHA. Issues and butt hurt over Naruto's choice of life mate (don't deny the obvious) belong in the Pairing Debate thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  21. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    You've done so piss poor in your previous arguments I can't wait to hear the explanation for how you try to back this one up. In fact what yous aid further proves my point, since romance is the only ever thing Hinata has been involved with in the series and has done nothing else. Everyone being allowed to talk about how bad the female characters are except for Hinata makes your double standards even more obvious then your set would already imply
     
  22. lol 4th dimension reiatsu Active Member

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    Nardo would have been fine with either Hinata or Sakura since they are about the same in quality, wat is terrible is Sakura and Sasuke, like everything about Sasuke is:lmao

    Rukia is better than Orihime but she is pretty good too.

    I do prefer Mei and Momo over Ochako, but overall every girl in BnH is fine.

    Best battle adventure shonen females goes to FMA and Magi girls tho.
     
  23. ChronaSE Monochrome World

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    This thread started with Sakura, then turned into Bleach/Orihime, and then I mentioned that a fair comparison to Ochako was Hinata rather than Sakura, since you know, like I previously mentioned, both were inspired by the MC with the difference that Ochako does stand on her own two feet, has her own motivations and doesn't rely on the MC as much.

    Hinata on the other hand feels like a character that belongs in a shoujo manga, her motivations are rather weak when you put her in a strict world of assassins/shinobi. She appears like a character that wants everything served under her or awanting for her troubles to go away without doing anything. And no matter how much she brags about wanting to be like Naruto, truth is she never archieves such feat, because in the end it was Naruto that did end doing everything. (Fought Neji, saved the world, confessed to her after 2 years of no interaction after she promised that next time they would walk together and what not, most likely solved the Hyuuga's family drama.) To put it simply Naruto was her escapism.

    That said I apologize if I contributed into turning it into a pairing war. Although it seems it was innevitable.
    Let's go back to bleach or smthing'
     
  24. Vongola King The King

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    i'm surprised xiammes has even tolerated this huge derailment and let it evolve into a pairing war :catskully
     
  25. Muah HADE BARA BOGE PYA

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    As I happened across this thread I was watching the opening to an old anime that I haven't seen in years. It is by far the best anime with a female protagonist I've ever seen.

    X

    Airmaster is by far my favorite female protagonist. The little girl from Sunabozu is my second.
     
  26. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    Even then Sakura still comes closer by comparison since she also started to get inspired by Naruto which much like Ochaka didn't start out that way. They both admited that it started out more as envy since the MC could do and decide things that they could not.
     
  27. ChronaSE Monochrome World

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    That took somewhat until shippuden but I see your point.
     
  28. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    If you want to get technical her inferiority complex to her team in general lasted well into the end of the series.
     
  29. SoulFire! Venerable Sage

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    As far as I'm concerned this is not the place for such debate and I have not provided any structured arguments as of yet.

    I personally have not denigrated any of the female characters from other manga in this thread (not that I do it in any thread) and while there have been comments and comparisons made with various female characters, there is a pointed concentration on tearing down Hinata using supposition and half truths. I prefer to talk BnHA here, but as you are so eager for my rebuttal I will provide it under the spoiler tag. Have a LAP:

    Spoiler:

    False. It has never been said that Sakura was based on Kishimoto's wife. I doubt that he was even married back when he created Sakura. Oda's teasing comparison at their wedding was as close as it comes. Kishi did allude to his wife's objection to the pairings he went with (I almost caused a rift in my own household too, because my wife was very upset also that Naruto didn't get together with Sakura. In fact, she complained quite vehemently to me!) but he also laughed throughout the discussion, which leads me to doubt just how serious the entire event was.

    The interviewer commented that Kishi's wife 'like Sakura' because Kishi said that she had a strong character which Kishi turns into a joke about telling his wife that she was the model for Hinata. As you noted elsewhere, Kishi actually said Kushina was inspired from his wife (and in fact that she helped him with the mother/son relationship of Kushina and Naruto). And no, Kushina is not a carbon copy of Sakura.

    When asked about the love story with Hinata, Junko responds: I thought “I would be happy if it did turn out that way,” so I was surprised because I didn’t think it would be introduced like “da-da-dan-daaan” in the form of a movie. In a separate interview she comments that “Hinata’s ever-unchanging earnest love is cute”.

    Uh, no. Kishi considered Hinata the romantic heroine in association with Naruto and Sakura the manga heroine. It frustrated him to no end that Sakura's popularity remained lower than that of Hinata in spite of his attempts to elevate her status and the greater amount of face time she had in the manga.

    This is misinterpretation of Kishi's words: In my head, Naruto’s boyhood has ended, setting it at a time that’s a little after adolescence, I decided that “ Naruto would be together with Hinata” . However, not in particular, I didn’t contemplate much over the love story between the two of them. Since for that sort of story, I did not intend to describe (how they got together between ch.699 and ch.700). What Kishi is saying is that he had no intention of portraying exactly how Naruto and Hinata become a pair within the manga (since he was uncomfortable with writing romance and didn't want to pair them up too early). He was simply going to reveal their marriage through the epilogue and leave it at that. Which is why he was thrilled to have the anime take on the romantic union with a movie.
    Hinata restored Naruto's faith in himself more than once within the story, just as he did for her. It wasn't Kurama who slapped Naruto out of his stupor and gave him the the reassurance he needed--the Kyuubi just added a few finishing words. And please don't give me the salty complaint that Hinata was more interested in holding Naruto's hand than in Neji's death. Hinata was finding comfort in the strong and steady grip of someone she loved and admired as they faced off against the monstrous foe that had felled her cousin. She's allowed.

    Kishi referred to Sakura as an 'honest girl', but that did not mean that her romantic confession to Naruto was genuine. Actually, it was Kishi himself who found that he would feel bad for Hinata had Naruto not fallen in love with her after she had supported and cared for him for so long.

    Manga says otherwise:
    X
    X

    What exactly could Hinata have done for Neji? He was dying, fgs!

    Did you read the same manga I did? :dafuq

    Had Hinata not acted when she did Naruto would have been spirited away and the Kyuubi removed, killing him. What she did was make a move on Pain from behind, hoping to take him out before he noticed. Once he was made aware of her attack (from Naruto) she had no choice but to face him--even though she knew she was no match in such a confrontation--and hope that somehow Naruto could work himself free while Pain was distracted with her.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  30. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    Aaaaand youre still going...
     
  31. SoulFire! Venerable Sage

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    X
     
  32. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    Go ahead and respond one by one with each of your retarded comments so to save me teh trouble of reading through that ocean of stupidity.

    I'll start with the first one. Yes Sakura is based on his wife. He flat out said this in the NYCC 2015 interview and even said that he lied to his wife about Hinata being based on her instead which she is catching on to is a lie.

    These were all said by him. On top of that in the RTN interview he also said that Kushina is based on his wife who is also very scary and is also parallel to Sakura....Also your implication that he wasn't dating his wife before he married her makes you look all the more retarded and yet another reason why you are looked down on even by the NH fandom. Now go ahead and post the next one so I can go ahead and debunk whatever dumb argument you try to substitute for actual form of logical thinking. NOt like it matters eitehr way since i'm 100% sure I debunked all your arguments before and you are stubbornly repeating your own dumb arguments in a vain attempt to stretch this argument even more which alludes even more to the hypocrisy that you don't want to keep talking about it. Congratulations not only are you your own worst enemy but you displayed a level of stupidity to the 5th degree in the first sentence alone. One can only imagine the forneverworld level of wanking you have waiting for me.
     
  33. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    No, he simply doubted that Kishimoto was married when he started "Naruto". Which he is actually correct on, since Naruto started in 1999, and Kishimoto married in 2003.

    But the feeling I am getting from your vehement repetition of the whole "Sakura is based on his wife" claim is that you must have expected, in part, Naruto to get together with Sakura simply because Kishimoto made that claim.

    But at this point, Crackle, you should just table the discussion before you let yourself get too carried away.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Overall, at this point in time, Horikoshi has handled his entire story far better than Kishimoto did during the whole of Naruto. Ochako being a better female character than Sakura is a product of that quality of writing.

    Hell, just look at how things developed between Bakugo and Izuku in recent chapters. Many other authors would just go the whole "rival goes evil and joins bad guys" route, but Horikoshi handled in a way far surpassing in quality what Kishimoto spent fifteen years. In only the third year of Boku no Hero's publication.

    Just look at the League of Villains. How many mangaka can you think of would actually have the main group of antagonists grow in number over the course of the series. Most mangaka just have a set number of powerful antagonists in a group, have them defeated one by one until you hit the leader of the group, and then the hero confronts the Big Bad in a climactic showdown.

    But that has not been done with the League of Villains. In fact, the hidden leader of the League of Villains was defeated by All Might (at the cost of All Might's own remaining power), and the torch for main villain was passed down to Shigaraki.

    It'd take me a whole essay to talk about the rest, but Boku no Hero Academia is just that good. Like World Trigger, it feels like one of the first of a new generation (assuming that later manga don't follow the examples of the Big Three exclusively).
     
  34. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    I never said he was married when he started it but he's implying Kishi was married from the beginning which is just as retarded as any of your arguments

    Kishi made that claim after...so once again your retarded argument falls apart.
     
  35. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    concession accepted
     
  36. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    What argument was I making?

    On what grounds do you assume he is making that implication? You're the one who took it to mean that he thought Kishi wasn't even dating before he was married, when all he said was that he doubted Kishimoto was married when he created the concept of Sakura's character.

    You aren't exactly earning any points by defaulting to such language, anyway.

    So...

    *adds Crackle to ignore list*
     
  37. Crackle Well-Known Member

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    Like I said concession accepted
     
  38. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    BTW, Crackle, I wasn't "conceding" anything, and I just reported you for whatever link you attempted to put in that recent negative rep you gave me, and your language.
     
  39. SoulFire! Venerable Sage

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    Hey, you simply asked for proof and I provided quotes from Kishi's interviews and panels from the manga to prove my points (the fact that you prefer to avoid what you challenged me to provide is actually the concession here) . I would love to see you do the same :maybe--but take it to the Pairing forum where it belongs.

    :edu

    This far into the manga Hori is definitely creating a diverse caste of female characters. I think Kishi was always a bit confounded with how to write them (I'm willing to bet that he had no sisters to deal with growing up). I really like how Ochako is being developed, and the rest of the girls in the story are interesting and strong in their own ways. A problem Kishi had with Sakura was that he never really allowed her to completely overcome her own feelings of weakness/worthlessness in comparison to her team mates. She never truly had that moment where she took center stage and had Naruto and Sasuke 'watch her back' and that was a mistake.
    Btw, I be a she. :harley
     
  40. Tayimus Number One

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    The dude's banned, in case y'all hadn't noticed...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  41. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    I got him banned after I reported him.
     
  42. Vongola King The King

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    did the dude even get a warning tho? normally a mod comes in and tells everyone to cut this shit out immediately before the thread really gets out of hand or just plain lock it. @Xiammes?

    banning on the spot over a single thread seems odd.
     
  43. Catalyst75 Well-Known Member

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    When he neg-repped me, he tried to stuff an image into the "reputation commenmt" from some Wordpress site called "deathpower". Given the contents of just the front page and what other links there were, I would assume the image in question (which didn't show, since Crackle seemed ignorant that you can't link images in reputation comments) went against forum rules.
     

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