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How powerful would Wonderweiss have been?

Discussion in 'Bleach Battledome' started by Lord Stark, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. Lord Stark King of Winter

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    If he hadn't discarded his speech, memory, intelligence, and reason, and had instead developed his own abilities, where would he rank amongst the Espada? I'd say he has a good chance of being Primera.
     
  2. Basior Member

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    WW with brains seems as a rather top-tier fighter. If Kubo would've decided not to troll him and make a Yama-jii extinguisher he could have made a much better 0 espada. Imagine WW releasing and turning into a cold-blooded Frieza-like type character who kills one of his comrades and wrecks some SS captains. I remember some people saying some time before his purpose and release were introduced that he will be one of the main antagonists, in the devil's son way. due to his 'birth' shown in most Espada pressence. People also pointed many similarities between him and Ichigo, as both having huge swords which they carry on the backs, looking young etc. One of many potentials wasted by Kubo.
     
  3. Donquixote Doflamingo Master Puppeteer

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    He would of been number one for sure in my mind.
     
  4. Blunt Well-Known Member

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    I think he would have been the strongest. I was displeased that he turned out to be little more than a tool, he had the potential for much more.
     
  5. Lord Stark King of Winter

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    Aizen stole our chance for a top tier Arrancar. :pek
     
  6. docj i have returned

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    Honestly in my opinion WW is already the strongest arrancar.

    His lack of a mind only makes his Bloodlust that more dangerous because of his disregard for emotions such as fear, and danger.


    His advanced (more advanced the Ulquiorra's) HSR makes putting him down a hard task.

    Even though i believe he is the strongest arrancar he might not be the most effective in a general sense. He would not beat characters such as Barragan or Gin and characters with similar hax.
     
  7. HiroshiSenju Hiroshi Senju

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    He would have probably been the Zero Espada, given all the implications and feats of his strength. Shame, though, that he was a mindless kid.

    Not like it matters, though, since mindless WW is still probably stronger than the rest of the Espada. He's just too random to be as effective as others like say Starrk or Ulquiorra.
     
  8. Millón Vasto Kubo nuff said

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    I already consider him to be the strongest arrancar overall. He might lose to barragan due to respira hax. But yeah looking at WW's form when tied up and his mask fragment. It appears to be that he has something akin to a crown like barragan. And we know tha hollows with crowns are badasses and hax. Look at barragan. I wouldn't be surprised if had his own posse of hollows as well.However there must be a reason why WW was chosen out of all people to extinguish RJ. I also noticed in his base form that he already showed the ability to negate attacks through the use of sound/wind pressure which seems pretty hax. This isn't related to his extinguir like ability. Maby that was his orgnal ability. Heck If this guy uses sound and wind as a weapon he might have been even more hax then barragan.

    Seems to me as the others said. Kubo waisted his potenial.
     
  9. egressmadara Wanderin' About

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    Seeing as how he off-panneled two Vizards, one being a Captain, tossed Yama to the ground and intercepted/kept up with him after that (though he did get stomped), he'd rank among the Espada for sure if he was legit. Definitely among the top 4 Espada if he wasn't born a retard.
     
  10. Grimm

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    I will go with this. He would still be far below R2 Ulquiorra though... That goes without saying.

    Even without his mind I would still put him pretty high, for sure above Nnoitra and below.
     
  11. The End Heaven and Earth Burned to Ash

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    I doubt he would be #1. Maybe he could take Harribels spot as #3. I'd still leave Ulquiorra as #4 though because that seemed like part of Aizens WTF plan to have him fight Ichigo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  12. Akitō Hokage

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    He's already in contention for being the strongest Arrancar.

    It's weird, because Starrk was introduced as the strongest Arrancar, and then Ulquiorra could've been stronger than that when he revealed his second resurrecci?n, and then Yammy could've been stronger than that when he revealed that he was the 'strongest' Espada, and then Wonderweiss joins the fray in the fake Karakura Town with a very impressive display of speed against Ukitake, indicating that he could've been stronger than Yammy.

    Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Wonderweiss was the strongest of those four (who in my mind are decisively the strongest Arrancar), but I also wouldn't be surprised if he was the weakest.

    Ulquiorra has his own form of resurrecci?n, Starrk defeated two captains and he's the first Espada, and Yammy claimed that he was stronger than Ulquiorra and all the other Espada. And Wonderweiss has some damn ridiculous feats to his name. They all have their own pieces of praise that can be used to support their superiority, but it'd be hard to prove that one was stronger than the others just with what we've got.
     
  13. Sablés Well-Known Member

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    I would say WW has the best stats out of the 4, beyond that I can't say.
     
  14. Grimm

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    :giogio

    X
    X

    You were saying???

    Ulquiorra took this:
    X
    And didn't die... Starrk took a strike from Shikai Shunsui and died. :lmao And his attacks couldn't even put down Shunsui, Love or Rose.

    Yammy was defeated by two Captains and initially was being roflstomped by patched Kenpachi.



    The TRUE contenders for "The Strongest Arrancar" are Ulquiorra and Wonderweicce...

    -Wonderweicce however hasn't shown even a fraction of the power R2 Ulquiorra has shown in just one of his single attacks. Actually, even if we combine all the attacks from all the rest of the Espada, they would still be far below one Lanza... And that was just a casual attack from R2 Ulquiorra who can still create more Lanzas and had already drained some of his energy, not much, on insanely powerfull Cero Oscuras with it.
    -Both have High-Speed-Regeneration.
    -Ulquiorra has greater fighting ability and has the better speed feats.
     
  15. UltimaJames Member

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    WW high speed regeneration is far superior to r2 , I see ww as being the strongest arrancar though I have no problem seeing r2 beating him though with difficulty
     
  16. Grimm

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    All WW did was regenerate a hole and a few cracks arround his body, plus Released WW doesn't have a human body(aesthetically), quite far from that... So his main organs are likely not located in the same place, if at all...

    R2 Ulquiorra was able to regenerate a bit even after he was almost bissected and blasted by a Cero from a being with massively more power than himself.

    Actually, the inside of WW was completely HOLLOW, well... At least his head was:
    X
    X

    Well... You guys can say that WW has the advantage because he doesn't have to worry about losing organs though :quite.

    Either way... Power: Ulquiorra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WW. Lanza.
    And I think that with such a difference in power, that the rest of the stats aren't even worth debating... Specially since R1 Ulquiorra alone had already one of the best speed feats of this manga and also great physical strength and his R2 is powerscalled to be far beyond his R1.

    I really don't know why is WW is put above Ulquiorra in your opinions...
    He defeated Kensei off-pannel(and it took quite a bit) but Ulquiorra stomped Masked Bankai Ichigo on-pannel and was even shown blitzing him and this was just in R1 alone and R2 >>>>> R1.
    Is WW >>>>> R1 Ulquiorra??? I don't think so...

    Actually base WW isn't even stronger than base Ulquiorra so I don't even know how can people even have the nerve to put his R1 above Ulquiorra's R2 that is >>>> Ulquiorra's own R1 :lmao.

    Some common sense can be used here guys.

    Hell, even the opponents who defeated them...
    WW was DESTROYED by a fucking bare-handed Yamamoto while Ulquiorra had the "honor?" to die against the character who is pretty much the only character to date to be the closest to a trascendent, the deux ex machina main character.
     
  17. Lord Hirako Member

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    2nd or 1st espada without a doubt
     
  18. docj i have returned

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    R1 Ulq Speed feats are overrated

    He failed to properly blitz a clearly shaken Ichigo. Ichigo reacted to him so it was not a "blitz"
     
  19. Gina ; ]

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    Come now Grimm6jack, you must see that this comes out as a little biased. If anything, Ulq was destroyed by H2 with greater ease than WW was by Yamamoto.

    And the bolded is just guesswork on your part. Even if H2 is indeed far stronger than Yamamoto, this has no reflection on WW's strength relative to Ulquiorra's.
     
  20. Grimm

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    All I know is that all the attacks the other Espadas have made COMBINED aren't even close to one Lanza in power. And Lanza is but a fraction of R2 Ulquiorra's full power.

    Plus base WW is, via feats, weaker than Ulquiorra, no matter how you look at it, so why would his R1 be stronger than Ulquiorra's R2 when it's far above Ulquiorra's R1 and base WW was weaker than base Ulquiorra?
    For R1 WW to be stronger than R2 Ulquiorra, base WW would have to be far stronger than base Ulquiorra and that clearly was not the case, Ulquiorra was in fact the one with the better feats.

    As I told you, his best feat was defeating Bankai Kensei off-pannel and it took a bit of time. Ulquiorra in R1 who is far below R2 blitzed and made short work of Masked Bankai Ichigo.

    C'mon Gin, it's common sense that Ulquiorra was portrayed to be the strongest Espada man. The whole Segunda Etapa thing was just for that and nothing else. I don't know why do you "struggle" to acknowledge it and put guys with little to no relevance and that Kubo didn't gave 2 shits about like WW or Starrk or Yammy above him.

    The AoE demonstrated in the H2Ichigo and Ulquiorra was a sign of that and if you pay close attention, only the characters that were emphasized on having almost unmeasurable Raw Power had insanely large AoE feats(Yamamoto, H2Ichigo, RSE Ulquiorra, Dangai Ichigo, Hog. Aizen).

    WW was just a fucking excuse for Kubo to not show us Yamamoto's Bankai at that time and was quickly dispatched off. There's no way a character like him and much less Yammy or Starrk can be the strongests Arrancars. Yammy because he was just wasted and off-panneled by 2 Captains with no apparent mortal wounds and Starrk is confirmed to be below Yammy so he can't possibly be the strongest and he was also non-relevant.

    Ulquiorra on the other hand had lots of relevance through the Arrancar arc and Kubo even made him reveal a new release that no other Espada/Arrancar had and even made it to be HIDDEN from Aizen for it to not be accounted in the Espada ranks...
    Basically Kubo created all the tension of the main Arrancar to initially be the 4th(actually 5th :maybe) strongest Arrancar to later make an epic reveal of him being strongest with the mysterious and heavily emphasized(on vast power) Ressurection Segunda Etapa.

    There are things that we just stabilize with feats(and even with feats goddamnit Lanza was pretty much enough of it and Uryu's comment as well)... We have to look at the authors intentions as well.

    If you really don't think that Kubo portrayed for Ulquiorra to be the strongest after showing us fans his secret second release then well... Fuck...

    Answer me on this one honestly. What was Kubo's intention on showings us fans that the MAIN ARRANCAR, that was 1stly depicted as "not the strongest", had actually a secret release that was not accounted in the Espada ranks and that was heavily emphasized for it's enourmous power???

    Do you really think Kubo had the intention to still make Ulquiorra weaker than any other Arrancar after making such a reveal???
    C'mon nigga :gun.
     
  21. Lord Stark King of Winter

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    Jesus Christ Grimm6jack, why u wank R2 Ulq so hard. Yes he's easily in the running for the true Primera...but God so much wank.
     
  22. Grimm

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    That's the problem...

    He's not "easily in the running for the true Primera..."

    He IS the strongest, and by far at that.
    Kubo made it so evident and with implications in such a way that I don't even know how people still debate this shit...

    Kubo made it evident that Byakuya or Hitsugaya were the strongests juniors and pretty much everyone agrees with this, but Ulquiorra being the strongest Arrancar was far more evident and a fuckton of people still bitch about it :facepalm.
     
  23. Lord Stark King of Winter

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    If he is the strongest it is not nearly as huge a gap as you suggest. He's way above Yammy. Not that much above the likes of Starrk.
    That's Kubo's fault for giving people like Barragan the hax power of time manipulation and then saying Starrk was stronger than that.
     
  24. Cobalt Active Member

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    I think he'd end up being the strongest Arrancar.. which he pretty much already is.

    And Jesus Christ here we go with the R2 Ulquiorra wank is there a block button?
     
  25. Grimm

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    Yes it is... You are forgetting that in Bleach reiatsu is almost everything, it even has the ability to defy "reason" itself.

    The fact that Ulquiorra's reiatsu was shown so far above any other Arrancar just proves that he is the strongest, coupled with the fact that he is the main Arrancar...

    As I told you before, if you combine all of the attacks shown by the other Espadas, their total power would still be far below that of one Lanza and one Lanza is nothing more than a fraction of R2 Ulquiorra's full power since Ulquiorra, as Uryu stated, can use "as many Lanzas as he wants".
     
  26. HiroshiSenju Hiroshi Senju

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    Careful, Grimm6jack. Your I’M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME is showing :maybe
    And that doesn't really help any of your arguments because you come off more like you're whining out of dissatisfaction with the way things turned out.

    I can definitely see rationale for putting Ulquiorra as the strongest Espada, just not massively so IMO. Bleach powerlevels aren't that stratified unless you're Yamamoto. I think your emphasis tends to come off as wanking because you place a bit too much emphasis on your emphasis, if you know what I mean. Ex.

    "Ulquiorra in R1 is >>>>> VB Ichigo and R2>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R1"

    It looks suspect.

    Personally, I place Ulquiorra on the same level as Starrk (still loses to Barragan's haxx :blinditachi). He could very well be stronger, but I wouldn't go so far as to place him near Aizen's level. Aizen is clearly in a league of his own based on several implications and his ridiculous feats. AoE and big explosions isn't everything.
     
  27. Cobalt Active Member

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    Take Lanza Del Relampago and shove it up your ass :facepalm

    This R2 Ulquiorra obsession and wank of yours is seriously annoying and ridiculous..you probably think he could solo the Royal Guard or beat Juha Bach :canttouchthis

    The only person R2 Ulq has defeated was an already tired Ichigo and Uryu.. Wonderweiss blitzed a senior captain defeated two Vizards one who was a previous captain and managed to send the captain commander flying. Not to mention Stark the 1st Espada also mentioned his strength.
     
  28. Grimm

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    Give Ulquiorra an ability like Kyouka Suigetsu and he can also solo 99% of the Bleachverse with no-difficulty.

    I don't care about Aizen here though. I am talking about the other meaningless Arrancars.
    Kubo simply put Ulquiorra on a new level when he showed Ulquiorra casually using an attack that had more than enough power to destroy a city-sized(or even greater) fortress like Las Noches.

    If you look at Starrk... A fuckton of his wolves couldn't even put down Love and Rose or even mortally wound them...

    That's just pathetic... That display of power is just so far below R2 Ulquiorra's that I don't even know how do you guys find Starrk vs R2 Ulquiorra even debatable :facepalm. And if those wolves couldn't even badly wound Love and Rose how are they going to even scratch R2 Ulquiorra who has a fuckton more reiatsu, has one of the best hierros and even has high-speed-regeneration...

    It just baffles me how can people discuss something that it's so damn obvious. And even more when it's so many people :facepalm.

    If the difference in reiatsu is so overwhelming then there is literally no debate. If X character has >>>>>>>> more reiatsu than Y character then it doens't matter what hax the Y character has, he will be overwhelmed by X character's reiatsu. As I said before, reiatsu in this manga defies reason. In this way Ulquiorra can overcome Barragan's hax and in this way, Ulquiorra is easily the strongest arrancar because his reiatsu is simply tiers above any other Arrancar. There's simply no denying it.
     
  29. Cobalt Active Member

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    Didn't it take R2 Ulquiorra like three hits to take down an already wounded Ichigo? He should have one shotted him if he was so great but he didn't. He isn't the strongest Arrancar.. he is ugly as fuck in that form.. Wonderweiss or Barraggan kicks his ass come at me.
     
  30. Cobalt Active Member

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    X
    X
    X
    X

    Wait a second four hits..
     
  31. docj i have returned

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  32. Sablés Well-Known Member

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    You can't be serious. Ulquiorra could have one-shotted Ichigo(who hs better durability feats than most captains) from the get go with his second CO. I'm in agreement with Hiroshi, Ulquiorra could very well be the strongest espada and by some margin too however to place him near Aizen's level is ludicrous, afaic. Still downplaying like this is fucking terrible. Only thing worse than wankers are haters.
     
  33. docj i have returned

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    :rofl Jealousy Perhaps G6J? :maybe
     
  34. docj i have returned

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    IDK, Ichigo guarded a direct assault from bloodlusted Ulquiorra. Him not firing a CO could very well be PIS but a half dead Ichigo was able to react and defend himself momentarily from a bloodlusted Ulquiorra in CQC.

    Cobalt makes a solid point. A bit extreme, but a point non-the-less
     
  35. Lord Stark King of Winter

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    Except Starrk can fire an infinite number of those wolves. 27 of those wolves would likely equal a Lanza in power, except a sentient wolf is way more versatile than a lance.
     
  36. raizen28 I dunno

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  37. Sablés Well-Known Member

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    First and foremost, X . The way i see it, Ulquiorra was intentionally holding off on killing Ichigo till the point where he would succumb to dispear, that was the reason he entered Xto begin with remember. X However it seems XX Xand intended to kill him then and there.
     
  38. Cobalt Active Member

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    Err.. that's debatable Byakuya got a hole punched in his chest and was then pretty much butchered alive and then he sat through Yamamoto's Bankai which pretty much dried out all of Soul Society.. and Komamura/Kenpachi would definitely be able to take CO they'd definitely have some injuries but saying they'd be one shotted is retarded.

    If he was the strongest Espada it shouldn't have taken it four fucking hits to defeat an already battered Ichigo..

    And he also failed to one shot Ishida.. I forgot about that one as well :facepalm

    And I've never hated Ulquiorra until I saw all of this massive wank from Grimm6Jack.
     
  39. Akitō Hokage

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    Is that your only evidence? You'll need a lot more than that to properly convince me that Ulquiorra is stronger than Starrk, Yammy and Wonderweiss.

    The first mistake you're making is judging Lanza del Rel?mpago's power. You can't look at the size and base your assumption off of that - we see that a large explosion often dictates that a technique isn't concentrated, and that would work against you. You're overestimating its strength because it was huge, but I think you realize that size isn't everything and also that Kubo might've not accurately drawn Lanza del Rel?mpago to scale because that would require a lot of measurements (and he doesn't have time for that).

    Anyway, like I said before, there are a few indications that Ulquiorra was the strongest Arrancar, but they certainly aren't what you cited. His feat of blitzing Ichigo is ridiculous, and I think that's the best thing we can use to support his strength.

    Also, the fact that he had a second resurrecci?n is crucial: from Kubo's perspective, why should Ulquiorra have another boost when he was already slaughtering Ichigo? It might have been because he wanted to paint Ichigo as having defeated the strongest Arrancar, thus solidifying the strength of his Hollow powers and his status as the savior of the good-side.

    Those are the things you should be looking at, Grimm6jack. Looking at Rel?mpago's size and trying to gauge its power is a very inaccurate way of analyzing the situation.

    Personally, I think Ulquiorra is the strongest Arrancar, but that's just a hunch that I've got that stems from the revelation of his second resurrecci?n and the 'right-hand-man' aura that he gave off in relation to Aizen.
     
  40. HiroshiSenju Hiroshi Senju

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    Hell, give Hiyori an ability like Kyouka Suigetsu and negate PIS and she also can solo 99% of the Bleachverse with no difficulty. I don't see your point.

    Are you attributing the word "meaningless" to Lord Barragan? What manner of sacrilege is this? :pek

    R2 would imply that Kubo had the intention to make Ulquiorra the strongest, but it's not an absolute, and if he truly is, the gap between him and the other Espada is not as night-and-day as you suggest. The way you emphasize it, you make it seem like the difference between Ulquiorra and Starrk, for example, is the same as the difference between Hanatarou and Yamamoto. That's pretty extreme.

    And another thing...Lanza isn't as big as Las Noches, though. Multiple lanzas could do that, though, obviously. So could multiple Cero Oscuras. :maybe

    Problem with Lanza is that even though it is a very useful technique, Ulquiorra's aim with it isn't particularly great. It would work against a character that isn't too fast or one that is grounded and far away, but for a mid-air battle against someone with good speed, Lanza wouldn't be much of a factor (and no, throwing it at the ground wouldn't help because Ulquiorra either runs the risk of injuring himself or his opponent could simply reach him by the time it hits the ground). I'm not saying Lanza is useless, but it certainly isn't a sure hit.

    A "fuckton?" Really? 3 wolves?
    X

    Followed by 2 more (and perhaps an unknown number of extra wolves that weren't shown?). Maybe "several" but a "fuckton"?

    And by the way, you're making the assumption that because Starrk's wolves couldn't kill Love and Rose, they are weak. The implication here, however, is that Love and Rose are strong to have been able to survive the wolves, not that Starrk's wolves themselves are weak. This is further emphasized by the fact that Starrk stated that ceros wouldn't have an much effect on Love and Rose because they are strong.

    The wolves did badly wound Love and Rose. Just because they survived doesn't mean the wolves are weak. And by the way, the bolded is a baseless assumption. Besides, we already know that the likes of Yammy has more reiatsu than Ulquiorra (or any Espada for that matter). This is canon.

    True enough.

    It's just because certain things are suspect with Ulquiorra. That's what happens with your opponent is Ichigo. I had hoped the Databook would clear up the debate, but Kubo didn't even give any hint toward R2 Ulquiorra's strength other than "he becomes even more powerful."

    You think Ulquiorra can reiatsu crush Respira? :giogio :giogio

    Lol. I think we're done here.

    :brofist

    That's a testament to his endurance, not his durability. But yeah, with large AoE attacks distance is a huge factor. A large AoE attack taken from point blank with obviously do a hell of a lot more damage than a large AoE attack tanked from say 100 meters away.

    He could have essentially two-shotted Ichigo. Ulquiorra was just focused on causing Ichigo to despair.

    He could have an anytime. You're doing exactly what Grimm6jack so vehemently hates, which is why he's so incredibly hostile to anyone who doesn't subscribe to Ulquiorra being the strongest Espada.

    Hate the poster. Not the character :noworries

    But I even hated Grimmjow for some time due to Grimm6jack.
     
  41. Millón Vasto Kubo nuff said

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    :yay:yay
    DAT GRIMM6-SAMA's passive reiatsu manipulating your weak mind.:villa

    :zaruWell it was to be expected. You are nothing but an insect compared to his transcedent reiatsu.:WOW:WOW:WOW:WOW
     
  42. HiroshiSenju Hiroshi Senju

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    :pek

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  43. Millón Vasto Kubo nuff said

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    Don't fight it. Embrace it. Embrace his divine light and let his majesty enligthen you. He is the king afterall.:ruri:ruri:gar:gar:gar. Allow him to come inside of you.:LOS:LOS:LOS

    GRIMM6-SAMA>THE HEART
     
  44. docj i have returned

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    Tensa is a fool, a troll, whatever your preference. He is a great guy but i just don't expect much from his posts anymore like i used to :maybe
     
  45. Greed You lose...Again

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    Reiatsu defies reason. Who cares if my argument isn't sound, you seen dat ocean level reiatsu.
     
  46. Blunt Well-Known Member

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    Ulquiorra makes it rain. :scrooge
     
  47. Millón Vasto Kubo nuff said

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    I still have better feats then you overall lol.Or am I so sane just blew your mind!!!

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    You cannot comprehend me at all. After getting continiously beaten in coma by certain debators looking at you KT:wth. Grimm6jack bestowed me with his royal powers and now I am above reason.:blinditachi
     
  48. Yoshua That Guy

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    Wait a minute guys......

    Did Grimm6jack really call Grimmjow meaningless?!

    Mind=Blown
     
  49. Millón Vasto Kubo nuff said

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    Have you betrayed me my lord?:cry:cry:cry:U:U:U

    My heart is broken.

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    You've truly become a shell of your former self your majesty.:cry:cry
     
  50. Lord Stark King of Winter

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