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HoU Section Rules & User Feedback Thread

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki Archives' started by Rinoa, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    Please keep to the topic on hand instead of on each other. Thanks.

    --

    As for how lenient/harsh we'll be depends on what the community wants/needs and how we feel the section should evolve. This is a forum about Naruto - its meant to be fun. So we can't go perm section banning people who go slightly over the rules. We also can't let things continually slide with just warnings because then there'll be chaos. There has to be a balance - and that balance is going to be adjusted depending on how things are going.

    Sometimes we lock the thread to give a breather and so we can look through the posts and deal with them accordingly. It's not easy to tell people to stop doing x and y while trying to look at both present and past posts.

    Anyways I hope you understand that we are reading your concerns and doing what we think is best at the same time. Keep posting here and we'll respond when we have the time.

    --

    Side note: I'm on my way out as a moderator - been more of an advisor for the last month or so.
     
  2. Mael Well-Known Member

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    I have no regrets leaving that cesspool, but oh what I could say to you now...

    Forgive Rose...she knows not what she does. :zaru

    Really? Coulda fooled me. :zaru

    The problem Hiro is that your oversight into discipline is shortsighted and on more than one occasion biased or plain careless. I say this not attacking you as a person, but as a moderator. The same thing that Rose or others would say are easily bannable offenses if another says it because frankly, we all know the powers that be have a shit list. I also never said to perm ban a slight infraction such as off-topic. What I did recommend however is a complete crackdown on the passive-aggressive and the openly flaming. So far the justice is rather one-sided with the others going Charlie Mike and not a thing done unto them despite the more overt mannerisms. It's the concept of no bullshit which I've failed to see here every time this thread gets locked. I frankly don't feel like this place above all others is taken into that consideration. It's why I advocate doing away with it all entirely and letting the jackals figure it out for themselves. There are a million places to gush one's fanatical devotion and argumentation for fictional and weakly-written romance not only on NF but livejournal and that cluster of dipshittery known as tumblr. Closing this off to me would act as a punishment to a few who realized that they couldn't get together and discuss things normally without shit going downhill ad infinitum. No other section suffers this crap, not even the Cafe.

    Then "hire" more people. Frankly, I've screened through quite a bit and seen a whole lotta dickery missed.

    Oh...?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  3. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    If more people hold the same stance as you then I'll be more than happy to try seriously consider what it is I can do better as a staff member.

    That was my intention with this HoU revamp - at least with the pairing discussions. If posts aren't getting seen or dealt with time accordingly PM myself, Kenneth and Rinoa.

    Preferably Kenneth and Rinoa. As I said I'm maintaining more of an advisor role at the moment so most of my forum time is spent with HR stuff rather than individual section moderating.

    The pairing thread will be re-opened in a week's time. We just wanted things to settle down again. It isn't a bad idea and works from experience.

    We can't see everything. We're not going to devote our time going through every post in the HoU - that's unreasonable. Even if we hired more people we still wouldn't see everything. We don't need more people. Mods can only do so much before it falls on the community. So use the report function. We deal with stuff when we see it.

    --

    Rather responding to the above actually. Can you, Mael, and others say what you would like improved in the section/what you think has or has not improved?
     
  4. Mael Well-Known Member

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    You'd be amazed. We do. I'm just the only one who has finally decided to speak up in the threads. It's on you and the powers that be to actually listen and implement.

    We will most certainly be PMing Kenneth as so far he's got the highest vote of confidence. Rinoa is the same...but they can't handle certain things and neither can an advisor.

    I also advocate another supermod here if you're going to step down to advisor. Advising means nothing. It's like asking Toby to start cracking down when he stepped down and not having another supermod take his place.

    And it'll close up again in a matter of months. Rinse and repeat, just like I said before, right?


    Yeah, so get more people involved. I don't buy the excuse that more people means the same lack of oversight. That's nonsense. More people from different backgrounds brings fairer justice. That's why we have a damn Supreme Court in the United States.

    You can absolutely do it. If the Cafe can or the Sports section can, the HoU can. I don't buy it. I don't buy it because I know posts have been reported with nothing done.

    I already did. I'm sorry but I spelled it out for you.

    Objective, not SUBjective.

    Case in point, person X flips out at person Y and violates codes of conduct A and B. X gets a two day ban while person Y in response gets a week plus ban. Same charges, different punishments. Calling that fair is full of shit and then some. And to make matters worse, Person Z in passive-aggressive style calls others worthless or ignorant or section ban material for no harm committed gets responses from Person X calling Z out for ignorance. Two week ban for flamebaiting, flaming, trolling, take your pic. That seemed like the proper language IIRC, right?

    Yesterday, you got a couple posts from someone who not only vindicated my beliefs but revealed the ugly bias going on. It was wise to delete the posts, but I do hope you cause what was and is the tips of the icebergs. My gut says no though. And to add to that, suggestions to Rinoa brought in a firestorm of people accusing me of flaming or flamebaiting Rinoa even thought she did not even think so despite my gruff mannerisms. Why? Because they're all of the same flock, the same guilty parties doing the same exact shit yet nothing done about it or documented.

    Improve this thread? Improve or equalize the punishment given or don't even bother running it. Get more IMPARTIAL people in as powers, ones you know who don't give a shit about the denizens, the fandoms, the pairings, and don't have shit lists. Suspicion is rife already there. I think what has happened is that people don't get the nature of debate. Commentary about pairings and notions are interpreted as hatred on fans and thus reported on a whim. Paranoia is rife amongst members and I think we all know who the hell I'm talking about.

    For this section to improve, that shit has gotta go.
     
  5. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    I haven't actively modded the place for a while now and outside of last week it's been relatively fine. Don't blow things out of proportion to fit your own agenda.

    Dependent on the community.

    That's nice, but this is a Naruto forum not the politics.

    The cafe is a completely different section from the HoU. Like the Library is completely different from the Blender. Different communities and different topics require slightly different rules. Fact is most newer members and general topic posters come to the HoU. I don't expect them to have the most verbose posts as I would in the Cafe or something. The comparison just isn't there.

    Different histories, different punishments.

    Quote the posts for me and let me see.

    Just because people like to defend their friends doesn't mean that the person being defended is biased. Would you not do the same if your friend was in the same position?

    Equalize? There is no bias. Improve, we'll try.

    There should be no more warnings in the pairing thread anymore - and there won't be once its reopenned.
     
  6. Mael Well-Known Member

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    Right...no bias...and Hugo Chavez rose from the grave. I like your deflections instead of actual considerations. A proper response is coming soon.
     
  7. Let'sFightingLove Banned

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  8. ch1p likes the kitteh

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    I agree. :( I liked this person's job a lot. The HoU became a much better place after the new rules have been established. The bullshit has significantly lowered and that is thanks to Hiro.
     
  9. Mael Well-Known Member

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    Since the beginning it had problems, like really bad problems, but as of this month especially the debate thread has received numerous warnings even during a time when the people normally liked to blame were absent. Furthermore, those individuals were not active participants in between those four warnings. It's just screaming how unstable this thread, the Big 3 one (overall pairing thread a lesser extent), can be and the tragedy behind repeated attempts to fix and fail but the clear evidence of authoritative fault.

    BS. It's dependent on the mod's competence as well and this is across the board. You cannot hide behind a wooly veil when you want to flex your authority to solve a problem. Part of improvement in a thread/section is figuring the equality of justice.

    :facepalm

    Wow Hiro...just...wow. A forum is considered a microcosm of how society operates and if mods/supermods act as the judge, jury, and executioner, you above all others should understand the analogy to its fullest, in societal (this forum/section) behaviors and expectations of order. The fact you didn't really irks me and only helps allude to my belief that you are either deflecting from the HoU issues at hand that need fixing or you simply don't give a shit to rustle my jimmies.

    Missing the point again, Hiro.

    The Cafe is a good example because they unlike the mods of this section have come to realize the inherent nature of debate. The Cafe has plenty of idiocy and offensiveness but I'll be damned if I can't say it's one of the more open areas and an example to follow. The HoU modship of the past had yet to realize this, Rinoa and Kenneth a slight breath of fresh air. Postulation, dissent, concurrence, and argumentation in their purest are the natures of the beast, and while the topics and communities may be different the nature regarding them are similar. There is no difference in essence, merely subject matter. Don't call a spade not a spade.

    And we've got ourselves a hat trick. That is complete BS and you know it. Different ACTIONS warrant different punishments, not histories. It would be like a man judging a German and a Canadian on their histories despite the German being the lesser offender at that time. By this statement alone, you have just revealed your bias.

    You do not ban a person for a mere two days for member bashing just because their history. It is a more egregious offense that single time than a person that would have one or more bans for something less like fandom bashing, off-topicness, or general trolling.

    How convenient that you deleted them. :zaru

    Rose went off demanding my section ban for very illegitimate reasons and actually proving my point, and you deleted the section of conversation.

    The HoU Improvement thread...when Snow Princess went off the deep end and a mere suggestion of paranoia got a mass deletion, a two-day for her, and a week for the "offender." Yeah, no bias there.

    The second incident? Also with posts either relegated to the landfill or deleted...BY YOU. Do not ask me to provide what you should already know, Hiro. That's just plain irresponsible and/or convenient. Yet people remember...

    No actually you missed the point yet again, four in a row. There was never an attack to begin with thus there was never a need for defense. Lo, Rinoa wasn't even the issue at hand, it was the flock that came in with immediate accusations that were neither here nor there if any of them bothered to read. There never WAS an accusation of bias against her or her rule over the HoU to mark upon improvement. You and several others failed to read this it seems.

    There is bias, for varying reasons. Sticking your head in the sand about it is not going to improve matters at all. It's exactly your refusal to acknowledge problems as they are, upon my observations and experiences, and allow people to coddle and kiss up to you that will continue with these problems. When the Improvement Thread came around you even came to a point where you didn't even want to hear disputes on how to approach improvement which was a glaring problem with your operation with lording over the HoU in particular. It warrants the belief of a passive-aggressive attitude that seems to be in legion with some hence their abilities to get away. How is this relevant to improvement? Physician, heal thyself.

    Please don't make me laugh. The contradictions in this statement are rife.
     
  10. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    I'll be around still, just not actively moderating. I only check the HoU and HR nowadays.
     
  11. Geralt away fighting dragons

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    ♫ I need a Hiro
    I'm holding out for a Hiro 'til the end of the night
    He's gotta be strong
    And he's gotta be fast
    And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
    I need a Hiro
    I'm holding out for a Hiro 'til the morning light
    He's gotta be sure
    And it's gotta be soon
    And he's gotta be larger than lifeeeee ♫
     
  12. ch1p likes the kitteh

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    Well, that might be your view of it. It isn't mine. Before the new rules, the HoU had 4-5 pairing threads every day and all of them had a fight to the death within. Now the HoU has one pairing thread, that gets a scuffle every month or so. It's contained and shit happens less regularly. It's quite an improvement.

    Well, regardless, you've done a good job with the section, so thank you.
     
  13. Mael Well-Known Member

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    So it went from a warzone to a monthly natural disaster...kay. I guess a damage control can only lat so long.
     
  14. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    Mods cant be blamed for everything and neither can the community. Its a balance. As for bans the offense, post context, user history, etc. al play equal role in thr punishment.

    What is your point then mael? Preferably in one sentence.

    There will always be problems no matter what so saying get rid of all of them is impossible. Its trying to maintain an area where discussions can occur without too much derailment and members can feel comfortable posting here. I admit we as staff have room for improvement.
     
  15. Mael Well-Known Member

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    Concession accepted then. I won't give you one sentence because it will just reinforce the point you cannot and/or will not read which demonstrates your ability to comprehend.

    You either still don't get or are unwilling to get my point. You've demonstrated you just simply don't want to acknowledge across-the-board faults to include those of moderators past and present and thus because of that the thread will never improve. History is merely a prejudicial tool especially when the bans have been questionable and unequal for the parties involved. If you want to speak balance, you have demonstrably shown even with trimming the hedges of threading the fair distribution of rulings and punishments has been found wanting and for that I simply vote no confidence.

    And with Rinoa, Kenneth, and whenever a new supermod comes around, I hope to be seeing such things.
     
  16. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    Lol more like I don't want to go back and forth having the same conversation with you when you clearly have a specific personal adgenda. Your VMs, rep history and posts say as much.

    And your point is . . . ? That things will never improve and basically the mods suck and are unfair? Because that's all I got out of those last two paragraph. If you want to complain about the mods, by all means go ahead and post in the Questions and Complaints - with actual evidence of the mods having bias in their actions.

    This isn't the place. I've already said multiple times that if you want to discuss specific moderator complaints then the place to do it is in ANBU central. And we'll discuss it with you there rather than clogging up this thread.

    You say we're not listening to your complaints? Ignoring you? What have I been asking you the last few exchanges? If you all you want us to say that is that we aren't doing our job/we'll do whatever you say that isn't going to happen. Of course we're going to make mistakes, we aren't perfect, but we try are best to limit those.

    This thread is for discussing how the section should improve. If you're going to continue basically just complaining and not getting to an actual contributive point then I'm going to kindly ask you to stop posting.
     
  17. Mael Well-Known Member

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    I have an agenda of making sure I point out the unequal representation from within this chasm you call a section. That's my agenda. My rep history however is irrelevant to the topic at hand which was originally the issues with the Big 3 thread and the partial treatment I see within its walls, so thank you very much for bringing up a moot point. The same goes for my posts. I make no claim of sainthood but I also know when posts are in violation and others are not and if you speak of alliances or feelings, well it's called a fucking opinion, Hiro. Now you're just getting huffy and passing off improvement methods you just generally disagree with.

    So what in the hell is the point of the Improvement Thread? What the hell is the point of the Rules/Feedback Thread? Complaints about administration is part of the improvement process within the section as a whole but you're apparently trying to split hairs or create a sort of cognitive dissonance that the responsibilities of the powers that be when in discussion are in conflict with the very idea of section improvement.

    I can't give evidence when you delete it, Hiro. I can't show Rose flying off the handle demanding my section ban for being a Negative Ned or Snow Princess immediately calling conspiracy and flamebaiting her opponents because you deleted the damn posts. Don't be coy.

    You just defeated the very things you created. Bravo.

    It is absolutely the place because the breakdown of the thread(s) and administering treatment/punishment are very much factors within the section itself and the importance of improving. You just said it yourself. Some of it is modship and some of it is user-related.

    Because I don't believe you, Hiro. I sincerely, honest to God, do not believe that you are actually acknowledging. All I've seen you do is deflect with some meek admittance or outright indignation. Rinoa on the other hand accepted it and appreciated it which actually shows some improvement there but a long way to go.

    Yes and improvement can also come from the top-down. Fancy that. That's my whole God damn point to begin with since the powers that be should set the standards and so far all I've been seeing are standards set that a certain type of bad behavior can more easily get away with it due to lax monitoring or even possible bias. You said it yourself that different histories set your standards and by that you revealed your cards.

    I already mentioned more mods. I mentioned treating it like a Supreme Court with an "all walks of life" approach to who goes into the modship/conclave process. I am contributing. You're just choosing to cherry-pick what I'm saying or just plain fucking with me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2013
  18. Kenneth

    I AM THE PANTS

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    Please, give me the shorter version of what you want to improve/what you're talking about. I'd love to respond and all, but atm I can't be reading all of that.
     
  19. Vermin ▄█▀ █ █▀█ █▀ █▄█ █▄

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    the mods are trying their best :giogio after all, the reason to blame firstly are the people who take parings so seriously anyway, if you are going to blame someone, you should blame the asshats who start all the pairing drama in the hou

    on this subject when will there be another banner contest?
     
  20. Mael Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. The issue at hand is the lack of equal distribution of retribution for all offending parties, an inability to see the rules violated even if used in different tongue or mannerism. That's my biggest point on how to improve the thread...better oversight that right now is woefully inadequate and leading to the continued closing of the debate threads.

    I said what I needed to. Now I'll just be biding my time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2013
  21. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    See below.

    What you were doing was continuous complaining as opposed to actually having a discussion. If you have specific problems about certain mods I'd rather not do it here. If you're going to incorporate administration into the suggestions in a discussive manner than we can keep it here. Simple as that.

    I read those posts. Rose was baiting and you flamebaited back. If you both want bans fine by me, but since it was light and in this feedback thread I decided against it at the time.

    For evidence I meant in actual HoU topic threads. Give me some evidence where you think there was unjust treatment. If you're complaining about unjust treatment I'm assuming you mean it has happened elsewhere.

    Yes. I'm not against talking about modship in this thread. I'm just saying if we want to seriously have this discussion - treat it like one. I'm not going to continue derailing this thread with responses if all I get in response are more complaints. It has to be give and take on both sides.

    At any rate, this seems more like a discussion now so thank you.

    [QUOTE\Because I don't believe you, Hiro. I sincerely, honest to God, do not believe that you are actually acknowledging. All I've seen you do is deflect with some meek admittance or outright indignation. Rinoa on the other hand accepted it and appreciated it which actually shows some improvement there but a long way to go.[/QUOTE]
    Sorry if it appears that way, but I am acknowledging. I just want to see the posts for myself. Which is what I've been asking for. If the other evidence has already been deleted as well then link me the thread.

    Revealed my cards? o.o I'm not sure what you're suggesting. It's in the forum rules. Ban length is decided by the offense, the history, and other information stated in the user notes. A user whose last ban for flamebaiting was 1 month is not going to get the same punishment as a user who has no prior history of flamebaiting.

    Also yes, of course the improvement should come from top-down. What I think we can do better is getting back to the ?no warning ? ban if things start to get out of line? for the pairing thread. When we revamped things seemed to be pretty tame for the most part so we let back a little on the nazi-like moderation and let people get a little aggressive as a part of the debate. Clearly it didn?t work out so we go back to the heavy moderation. Do you think the heavy moderation should continuously stay? Is that what you?re suggesting? It?s something to seriously consider I think. I won?t agree to perm banning people who get slightly outta line, but if it is done repeatedly we do consider it.

    I do think the pairing debate stuff is a lot better than it used to be, but we?re still testing how things should be run. Eventually I would /like/ for the pairing thread to allow small banter and have people be able to control themselves (as I consider that to be all part of the debate) but we?re not at that stage yet.

    I?m not cherry-picking. I already said that adding more mods is something the staff does not want to do at the moment. The pairing thread moderation and this unfairness you talk about we can continue to discuss.

    Hope this clarifies things more.
     
  22. Jena E. Pluribus Anus

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    What is the reasoning against adding more mods? It seems like some of the problems are that the mods can't realistically monitor the threads constantly, so why not add another mod?
     
  23. Rinoa Comfy Crew Super Moderator

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    There will be another banner contest, but for the next'm thinking of something else.
    When better elaborated and determined, we get to know here. :3
     
  24. Hiroshi Active Member Advisor

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    Sorry for late response.

    There will always be a time when a thread can't be monitored 24/7 no matter the number of mods. With a increase in staff count we lose consistency and its hard er to communicate with one another to coordinate. Those are the two major things - the other things I won't go into.
     
  25. Vermin ▄█▀ █ █▀█ █▀ █▄█ █▄

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    i am exited, sounds like something fun :naruko
     
  26. Knuckles the Echidna Zonic the Zone Cop

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    I say it's fine the why you made it.
    Good job on the main thead
     
  27. hannah will not come back.

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    There is a wide range of topics you can post when it comes to pairings, yet we are allowed to use only two retarded topics with a precise set of retarded rules. Why? :huh

    My 2013 pairing popularity tread got deleted for example. But there is a lot of threads that can be fun and don't have to be aimed at retarded discussions, yet get deleted.
    :notrust
     
  28. Kenneth

    I AM THE PANTS

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    Because people can't play nice, so we had to add retarded precise rules. Yet still, we yield the same results even with carefully and incredibly detailed explanations, examples and simple wording. It's good to see such a passive-aggressive nice post in here.

    As for the pairing popularity thread, I have nothing to do with that. You'll have to ask the other mods what happened there. It's likely that it's because pairing threads are kept to an absolute minimum due to the drama that always ensues when people post in them.
     
  29. Rinoa Comfy Crew Super Moderator

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    The popularity thread had become a second pairing debate thread, same posts, same debates, same baits, in addition to the accusations about dupes/votes, etc... at that time the reasons were indicated by the mods.
    The topic at hand is restricted in this section for the time being because of what has already been discussed before and after the section has been archived, what Kenneth says.
    So for now we will keep with the retarded rules and the retarded two threads. :3
     
  30. Lezu Well-Known Member

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    Why Mayrice's banner is so small ? If I remember correctly you guys said that you'll fix it later.
     

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