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[Greater Debate] Itachi vs. Nagato (Open For Voting!)

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Thunder, Nov 4, 2011.

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  1. Thunder Active Member

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    Itachi vs. Nagato


    Location:

    X.

    Distance:
    Fifteen metres.

    State of mind:
    In-character.

    Knowledge:
    Manga.

    Restrictions:
    X X and X.

    Special Conditions:
    Both fighters are in good health; Itachi doesn't suffer from his illness and Nagato is as he was X. Itachi's eye-sight is perfect.

    __________________________

    Team Itachi:
    X
    X
    X

    Team Nagato:
    X
    X
    X

    Adjudicators:
    X
    XX

    __________________________

    *For more information regarding the rules and guidelines, see X. All discussion of the debate should be done X; please avoid spamming this thread.

     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  2. Daenerys Stormborn Mother of Dragons Moderator

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    The Greater Debate: Itachi vs Nagato

    Opening Speech by Akatsuki no Tenshi

    X
    "Only a Sharingan user with the same blood as me can defeat me."

    Introduction

    Welcome to the Greater Debate! Before getting started, I'd like to briefly thank my teammates, the opposing team, the judges, and the voters. I'm sure all of you will make this a memorable event.

    The matchup in question for this incarnation of the Great Debate is Itachi vs Nagato. While Nagato is certainly a powerful opponent, we believe that Itachi would be the clear victor in such a contest. In this speech, I will support this assertion by discussing Itachi's prowess with the Mangekyou Sharingan, his skill in other ninjutsu and genjutsu, his taijutsu capabilities, and the tactics he would use to overwhelm Nagato's own powers.

    Hype

    Some of the most skilled and powerful shinobi in the manga have shown respect for Itachi's capabilities. Tobi stated that if Itachi had known about his intangibility, X, and also that Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he'd wanted to. Danzou praised not only Itachi's ideology, but also his genjutsu prowess, calling Sasuke's impressive illusions X Orochimaru's successor Kabuto claimed that Itachi was on X from the other Edo Tenseis--who include Kages and other Akatsuki members.

    The Mangekyou Sharingan

    The most powerful weapon in Itachi's arsenal, the Mangekyou Sharingan affords the user three different jutsu, each of which is a "game-breaker" in its own right.

    Tsukiyomi

    The Mangekyou's genjutsu can be used as a means of either physical or psychological torture. Tsukiyomi is so harrowing that it X even Hatake Kakashi. While he used physical torture in that case, he chose to inflict psychological trauma on Sasuke, and could use his considerable intelligence to gauge which tactic would be more effective against Nagato.

    An additional element to consider here is that, while Nagato possesses a doujutsu of his own, it clearly doesn't grant him genjutsu immunity, since he was captured by Magen: Gamarinsho. Thus, he should be just as vulnerable to Tsukiyomi as the doujutsu user Kakashi was.

    Amaterasu

    Like Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu takes effect in an instant--Nagato himself was X to it until it had already taken hold. As if this weren't dangerous enough, the flames of Amaterasu X.

    Amaterasu is even more deadly because Itachi doesn't need to stand still to cast it. On the contrary, he X while X while escaping Jiraiya's "inescapable" Toad Stomach.

    The nature of Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu presents an additional danger for Nagato. The best way to determine that Amaterasu is about to be cast is to look for the blood-tear from Itachi's left eye. However, this would require looking at Itachi's eye, making Nagato vulnerable to Tsukiyomi. Conversely, avoiding eye contact is the only way to make oneself safe from Tsukiyomi, but this makes it much harder to predict an impending Amaterasu. Even if Nagato sensed the chakra buildup preceding Amaterasu, he would still need to make eye contact to determine precisely when Amaterasu is going to be cast.

    Susano'o

    The final Mangekyou jutsu is perhaps the most potent, as it provides both offense and defense. According to the Databook, the Yata no Kagami can change its chakra type to perfectly counter any ninjutsu used against it. Itachi has also shown himself capable of erecting Susano'o at X.

    Beyond this, Susano'o also possesses two other legendary treasures: the X and the X. The Sword of Totsuka seals everything it touches into an eternal genjutsu. Given that the Sword is presumably made of chakra, one might assume that it would be useless in the face of Nagato's Hungry Ghost Realm ability. The manga says otherwise, however: when Nagato was pierced by the Sword, he was unable to absorb it. The Magatama, meanwhile, is clearly meant to be a long-range attack, and helped to stop Nagato's Chibaku Tensei.

    Other Ninjutsu

    Katons

    In addition to Amaterasu, Itachi can muster two other katons. The Uchiha Clan's signature ninjutsu, Katon: Gokakyu, is particularly notable due to its X, which allows it to block LOS. This gives Itachi the opportunity to carry out X or other trickery.

    X may be less impressive than Gokakyu, but it takes advantage of Itachi's superb weapon mastery, and also seems to be a very quick attack. In addition, Nagato's immediate reaction to such a jutsu would most likely be to absorb the flames, which would result in his being pierced by the shuriken concealed within them.

    Bunshins

    Itachi has shown us two unique variants on that old standby, Kage Bunshin. First is X, which has a major advantage for Itachi in that it requires less chakra than the standard Kage Bunshin, and which can also discorporate into its component crows. Second is the Exploding Bunshin, which is self-explanatory.

    Itachi's bunshinjutsu is especially potent when combined with distractions or LOS-blockers. As described above, we've seen Itachi use ninjutsu as a cover for a bunshin feint; this tactic becomes even more dangerous when the bunshin in question can cast genjutsu or blow up in the opponent's face.

    Other Genjutsu

    As mentioned above, one of the advantages of Itachi's Karasu Bunshin is that it can discorporate into individual crows. What makes this property even more powerful is that some of the crows have X of their own, and thus can cast genjutsu. While avoiding Itachi's single pair of eyes is possible, avoiding all the eyes of a flock of crows that's swarming all around the opponent would be extraordinarily difficult to do.

    Even basic Sharingan genjutsu is deadly in Itachi's hands. Naruto, with jinchuuriki levels of chakra, was X Itachi's base genjutsu by perturbing his own chakra. The same encounter shows Itachi to be adept at psychological manipulation through genjutsu: he showed Naruto visions of X saying that they were X, correctly assessing Naruto's personality to calculate what would hurt him most. Agains an opponent like Nagato, who has suffered great emotional trauma in the past, such a tactic would be highly effective.

    In addition, his eyes are not the only tools Itachi can use to cast genjutsu. With Utakata, he can cast genjutsu with X as well. With no knowledge on this technique, Nagato will probably look at Itachi's hands in order to see what seals he's making--and in so doing, will insure that he gets caught in an illusion.

    Nor does Itachi need to rely on "flashy" genjutsu to destroy his opponent. As we saw in the Sasuke vs Danzou fight, even a subtle genjutsu can turn the tide of a battle--and even a doujutsu doesn't provide protection against a genjutsu cast by a Mangekyou master. He could even trick Nagato into destroying himself, similar to the strategy he used when fighting X.

    Finally, the incident in which he X Orochimaru's hand showed that he can still move even while participating in a genjutsu. Thus, even if Nagato does manage to break through the genjutsu, he will emerge from the illusion only to find that Itachi has already seized the initiative and is probably about to kill him with one of the many other moves in his arsenal.
     
  3. Daenerys Stormborn Mother of Dragons Moderator

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    Taijutsu

    Speed

    One of Itachi's major advantages in a taijutsu contest is his remarkable speed. He was able to X with Rikudou Mode Naruto and Killer Bee in close-quarters combat, and made handseals so fast that even X. Additionally, he conjured a Kage Bunshin in the middle of his rapid-fire shuriken exchange with Sasuke, a feat that X the younger Uchiha. Finally, when fighting Nagato, he grabbed Naruto and Bee, blinded Nagato's summons, and cut off Nagato's arm, all in X

    Weapon Usage

    From a young age, Itachi excelled at the use of kunai and shuriken. Even before the Massacre, we saw him X that were in his blind spot, and during his final battle with Sasuke, he threw shuriken at blinding speed. He also X. And it's not only targets in his own blind spot that he can hit: during his fight with Edo Nagato, we saw him negate Nagato's shared vision with his summons by attacking their blind spots.

    Intelligence

    The Databook gives Itachi a genius-level Intelligence score of 5, and this has been backed up by feats. For example, in the heat of battle, he analyzed Nagato's Chibaku Tensei and devised a way to counter it.

    Stamina

    Many people consider Itachi's stamina to be his greatest weakness, but in fact he's capable of using a sequence of powerful jutsu in quick succession. In his final battle against his brother, Itachi used several ordinary genjutsu, Kage Bunshin, Tsukiyomi, Gokakyu (twice), Amaterasu (twice), and Susano'o (twice). During his fight against Naruto and Bee (and later Nagato as well), he used Katon: Gokakyu, Kage Bunshin, Katon: Housenka Tsumabeni, Sharingan genjutsu, Koto Amatsukami, Amaterasu (three times), and Susano'o. And in this second instance, he wasn't even tired afterward--a feat that was not due solely to his undead nature, as the Nidaime Mizukage's body was weakened after he used Jokey Boy, and Nagato had to absorb chakra from Bee and Naruto to restore his body.

    Counters to Nagato's Abilities

    Much of this will be discussed by our later speakers, so I will simply address a few points briefly.

    Even without having the Six Paths in separate bodies, Nagato can still take advantage of the Rinnegan's shared vision by bringing Animal Realm's summons onto the field. However, Itachi's fight with the Edo Tensei Nagato showed that he can negate this advantage by blinding the summons with simple projectile weapons.

    Deva Path's powers, collectively, are probably the most powerful weapons Nagato possesses. But these too can be countered by Itachi. We've seen that Susano'o is capable of grabbing people, which means that it should be able to hold onto Itachi and anchor him against Bansho Tenin and even Chibaku Tensei's gravitational pull.

    Aside from Deva, Asura Path is probably the most destructive of Nagato's "avatars". However, the defense of Susano'o will stop missiles and lasers cold.

    Conclusion

    Nagato is a formidable opponent, but Itachi's Mangekyou jutsu, mastery of genjutsu, speed, and intelligence grant him clear superiority. He can protect himself from Nagato's attacks while overpowering Nagato's own defenses. The Rinnegan may be "greater" than the Sharingan in terms of sheer power, but sheer power isn't all that matters in a contest between ninja. In addition to his own overwhelming puissance, Itachi also possesses exceptional skill--the skill of a man who graduated from the Academy at 7, was promoted to Chuunin at 10, was granted captaincy of an ANBU squad at 13, and defeated a Sannin with ease in his early teens. This skill will give Itachi the edge against Nagato, and we believe that he would emerge victorious if the two of them were to fight.
     
  4. αce Puahah.

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    Opening Speech by Ace

    Opening

    Prior to my team?s opening argument, I?d like to pay thanks to the people that organized this event. Thanks to the mod?s who are regulating the event, as well as my teammates who were spectacular throughout the entire process of putting together our argument. I?d also like to thank our judges, who don?t have the easiest job. And of course, I?d like to thank Team Itachi for taking the time to debate this subject with us. This is my first well thought out post in a very long time here in the Battledome. I haven?t been as active as my teammates have in the last couple of months, so when Strategos recommended I be part of team Nagato, I took the chance.

    After the second part of Naruto commenced, it was clear that the sharingan became the dominant bloodline ability and doujutsu in the manga. So it was only natural that the introduction of the rinnegan spurred debate that lasts even to this very day. The debate naturally extended to Nagato and Itachi, with both fandoms vigorously defending one side, while bans were thrown around left and right. It?s been interesting to say the least.
    I suppose it was time to have a formal discussion regarding this topic.



    Introduction
    Interpretation of key manga facts is always a touchy way to approach an argument. So rather than explaining how I think the fight would play out, the main purpose of this argument is to elaborate on the massive advantages that Nagato has that would eventually lead to his success. I find this to be the more efficient way of doing things as debating what each character would do in their respective mind sets derails what we believe to be the more logical way of approaching things.

    Character Knowledge
    Both characters have extensive knowledge regarding one another. The sharingan is famed for it?s illusionary techniques and Itachi?s reputation as one of the greatest genjutsu users is known to many characters. This is something that is undoubtedly known to Nagato himself. Manga knowledge also plays a large role in his insight regarding Itachi?s feats. On the flip side, Nagato?s techniques and abilities happen to be known to Itachi via manga knowledge from the last confrontation between the two said characters.
    However, while both respective shinobi happen to have large intelligence on one another, Itachi's techniques for the most part are much more easy to counter than Nagato's. The lack of counter tools Itachi has to large AOE abilities, while simultaneously being countered himself, is the massive advantage I referred to earlier. Of course, this will be elaborated later on in this same post.


    Nagato's Offense


    While defensive measure are important and will be taken by Nagato, it is very important to elaborate on his offensive capabilities. Even compared to Uchiha Madara, Nagato's abilities are the most destructive in the manga. Countering Itachi's techniques is a large role in winning this fight, but the ability to put Itachi down is the most important factor. Nagato's summons and his shinrai tensei's have enough variation to ultimately put Itachi down. The next couple of subheading's will be in regards to his many offensive fighting styles.

    Nagato's Mobility and his Summon's

    The summons Nagato possesses are his most valued asset in this fight. As stated in the manga, don't fight an Uchiha 1v1. This is not something Nagato has to worry about. Of course, he will attempt to avoid eye contact. His summons however, have the ability to compensate for his loss of eye contact through linked vision. And without being distracted in this scenario, the summons he places on the battlefield will all be focused on a single target, completely negating any speed advantages Itachi would ultimately have over Nagato.

    The Cerebrus is subject to Amaterasu after Itachi figures out how to counter it. However, the only logical way would be Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Susano'o. All are Mangekyou Sharingan related, and all of which dispense a very large amount of chakra. Something Nagato has in abundance and spared little to summon Cerebrus in the first place.

    So while Nagato's mobility is limited, his ability to compensate is completely viable. Should he choose to he can also manage to move himself around with invisibility via Chameleon or flying with a giant bird summon.

    Shinrai Tensei
    The force behind a shinrai tensei isn't something to be merely shrugged off. The power behind a single shinrai tensei had the ability to lift three giant toad frogs, who were able to physically fight off giant summons, while casually throwing them out of the leaf village from it's epicentre. They all broke their bones in the process. Itachi's body itself isn't particularly tough nor is it on the level of the Raikage and his family. If he manages to take a hit from a single full powered shinrai tensei, there's a very good chance it could incapacitate him in the process.
    Shinrai Tensei is also a complete counter to Susano'o. Susno'o does have the ability to anchor it's user to the ground, although the extent to which it can resist shinrai tensei is questionable. In any sense, this would be a pointless task to carry out. Even if the user is anchored, they would still be subject to the full force of the blow.

    Shinrai Tensei remains to be Nagato's greatest combative tool. The ability to counter shinrai tensei is not something Itachi can easily carry out. Susano'o is not something he would use pointlessly as it's very physically demanding, while shinrai tensei on the level of which I just pointed out, has no physical effects on the user. Itachi also has no summons to tank the blow for him. He's essentially a sitting duck for the technique itself. And mind you, Nagato's techniques are even stronger than Pain's. The force behind Nagato's shinrai tensei is a scary thought to imagine.

    Bansho Tenin

    Bansho Tenin is a very unique ability in that it can't be placed in a very distinctive category. It's main usage would be to draw Itachi out for offensive purposes, but it can also be used on the surrounding environment to help him in said situation he's placed in. It can be used defensively as well to pull summons out of harms way. It's also entirely possible that instead of using Bansho Tenin on a summon, Nagato uses it on Susano'o itself.

    Bansho Tenin is one of those situation based techniques that comes in handy every now and then, and it's mechanics are simply Shinrai Tensei's in reverse. It's a very effective technique to conter Susano'o with.
     
  5. αce Puahah.

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    Chou Shinrai Tensei
    It's doubtful this technique would be used in the fight. However, if it is, it would have the same effects of shinrai tensei on a much larger scale. Again, if it's used, Itachi has absolutely 0 counters other than his last resort Susano'o technique. The technique functions in the same manner as Shinrai Tensei, just on a larger scale. Hence "chou" shinrai tensei.

    Chibaku Tensei
    It may be a a slightly different opinion than many posters on this forum, but our team believes that Chibaku Tensei is not needed and it's usage would be absolute overkill. It will be elaborated on in the defensive section, but the abilities Nagato has are large counters to Itachi's Susano'o.
    However, if necessary, Chibaku Tensei will be used to completely subdue Itachi. The force behind the technique is enough to completely crush Itachi should it gain enough mass, even with Susano'o activated. Recent chapters have shown that Madara was completely blown to pieces even with Susano'o activated, in the face of a large destructive meteor. And while Itachi does have his mirror, it's simply one sided. It's not a full coverage of Susano'o.

    It is possible to argue that Itachi has counters to Shinrai Tensei, although I would respectfully disagree. However, he has absolutely 0 answers for this technique.

    As for Itachi's ranged attacked, the room for speculation is too high. Unless Team Itachi manages to come up with a quantified analysis on how strong said technique is and how much it contributed to the destruction of the chibaku tensei he faced, the assumption that he would be crushed in the process is the most logical conclusion to draw in this situation.

    Chibaku Tensei is an endgame technique which is not something you can simply shield yourself from or run away from. It's the most destructive technique in the manga, even more so than Madara's meteors.



    Nagato's Defense

    Nagato's body is frail and therefore needs several forms of defensive measures to protect himself. Of course, one of the ways is by shielding himself with summons. Said summons can also be used aggresively, distracting Itachi from Nagato, ultimately protecting himself. But he also has several techniques that can be used should he be caught out. The next couple of subheadings will deal with his defensive techniques, as well as his counters to some of Itachi's more annoying abilities.

    Shinrai Tensei

    Shinrai Tensei isn't just for offensive purposes as most people realize. It's a very effective form of defense. Basically, Shinrai Tensei has the ability to repel any tangible objects being thrown his way. It's possibly one of the most basic forms of defense in the manga. It's also one of the most effective.
    Repel anything coming your way. The versatility of Shinrai Tensei is something that shouldn't be taken lightly.

    Chakra Absorption

    Sometimes I wonder if this technique was a backup plan for a failed Shinrai Tensei. Chakra absorption can absorb any form of ninjutsu that is physically harmful to Nagato should it not be repelled by Shinrai Tensei. This makes basically every non-genjutsu related technique in Itachi's arsenal completely useless. His reliance on his Mangekyou Sharingan becomes even more heavy. And with that his chakra usage becomes even more of a problem. Not only does it completely render physical ninjutsu useless, it also forces Itachi to bring out his big guns early.

    Countering Genjutsu and Tsukiyomi
    Itachi's genjutsu is possibly the best in the manga. His use of it is very versatile and very lethal if landed. However, contrary to popular belief, it is not impossible to completely counter genjutsu related techniques. Of course, the first thing would be to avoid eye contact. A simple task that Nagato could accomplish by using constant animal summons as a way to compensate for the reduction in his visual field. If the animals are subject to genjutsu, Nagato is not. After all, if shared senses hindered Nagato in any way, the frog song would have taken him out as well after his path's managed to hear it themselves. The sheer amount of summons makes it unlikely that Itachi can cut off every single form of vision Nagato manages to set up with out being spotted himself and attacked.

    However, one has to address the issue of whether or not Nagato can manage to break himself free of genjutsu should it catch him in the first place. Our stance is clear. He can.
    Recent revelations have shown that Rinnegan to be the most evolved form of the Sharingan. And while it is true that Nagato's rinnegan did not progress through each stage of the sharingan as Madara's had, I find this to be a moot point. The only difference between Madara's Rinnegan and Nagato's is the ability to switch between sharingan related techniques and rinnegan related ones. The basic genjutsu defense of the rinnegan should be equal or greater to that of the sharingan. His ability to break out of genjutsu is entirely possible, although the chances of him getting caught are reduced severely by his fighting style.

    One most also note that Nagato himself is proficient at genjutsu use. He put mind seal barriers on ninja's so advanced it stumped Konoha's intterogattors. And said jutsu was not just used on one or two ninja. Nagato managed to place information blocking genjutsu on an entire village of ninja, without ever making face to face contact with any of them.



    Countering Amaterasu

    This was a much easier topic to cover than Tsukiyomi. Before I begin I'd like to point out the fact that Nagato, in his confrontation with Naruto and Bee, managed to feel Amaterasu's pressure without even looking at Itachi's eyes. This works perfectly with the strategy of avoiding eye contact.
    Of course, Amaterasu travels extremely fast. But the manga has already provided a counter to Amaterasu, which is shinrai tensei. He can also use his jutsu absorption ability to make sure the technique itself ceases to affect him. Amaterasu is much less a factor on Nagato and in the most likely case would simply be used to counter to large summons placed on the battlefield.





    Quick Conclusion
    Itachi's arsenal is impressive, but the amount of AOE abilities, as well as the amount of units on the battlefield severely limits his ability to commit to his fighting style. His chakra reserves would not be able to handle the amount of times he needs to resort to his Mangekyou Sharingan, and the counters he faces are too viable for him to properly address. His victory is dependent on his ability to spam large amounts of AOE jutsu, via Amaterasu and Susano'o in order to win the fight. Mainly because his genjutsu related techniques are completely countered in the face of more than one unit on the battlefield.

    Itachi's victory is improbably due to one reason. All of his base techniques are completely countered in every sense. His base genjutsu's aren't enough to subdue Nagato, if they should even connect. The only abilities he has to affect Nagato are his mangekyou sharingan related techniques.
    Basically, Nagato shut's down his only forms of offense, making him resort to defensive measures. Something he cannot sustain given the amount of destructive capability behind Nagato's abilities.
     
  6. Sadgoob Editing Specialist

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    Thanks you for reading. I have concisely synthesized the most effective arguments mentioned by the first speaker for your consideration. And for Team Nagato's third speaker to address in the rebuttal phase.

    Tools

    The Rinnegan has been portrayed as a stronger dōjutsu than the Mangekyō Sharingan. The author has, however, made it explicit that the X can trump a disparity in the level of dōjutsu. Is Itachi superior to Nagato in the usage of his eye techniques?

    Usage

    Nagato X, but his true weakness is his X fighting style. Nagato frequently attacked with X power or X at a time while he X and X his opponents. There is a sharp contrast in the offense he could present, and the offense he does present. Fortunately for my case, Itachi's opening maneuvers against X and X and X demonstrate that Itachi is an incredibly proactive combatant when fighting enemies of Konoha.

    Aptitude

    Itachi once X that only [Tobi] could defeat his genjutsu. Why exclude Nagato? Perhaps because superior X is a factor in breaking Itachi's genjutsu, and Itachi possessed X aptitude? Itachi did show that he could X genjutsu that required multiple breaks for even dōjutsu. Moreover, genjutsu X targets emotional X to make genjutsu more difficult to break. Was Nagato emotionally stable enough to defeat Itachi's genjutsu without providing Itachi a window of X?

    Tactics

    In addition to X trickery that could potentially induce self-harm, Itachi has immense X speed that he can use in conjunction with finding X in Rinnegan vision to commence powerful X from. For example, Kirābī did not react to Itachi's X before Nagato warned him. How is this possible when Kirābī saved the Raikage from X? Because Itachi blocked X with his katon to slow down his reaction. This is the exact same ambush tactic that Itachi used X against Nagato to amputate X of his arms and X him. It is doable with Amaterasu, which Itachi has synced with his vast X.

    Duality

    Itachi is dangerous. Susano'o is dangerous. Posters fail to realize that they are X entities that fight X. Using genjutsu or Amaterasu in conjunction with Susano'o would compound the drain on Itachi's stamina, but it would be immediately effective, and Itachi has fortunately demonstrated exceptional stamina as an Edo. He used a X Amaterasu on his crow after sealing Nagato without appearing fatigued, whereas Edo X have become physically exhausted from their jutsu that aren't X jinchūriki-like chakra cloaks.

    Items

    The spiritual items Itachi possesses were described by Zetsu as being X from Susano'o. They did not seem to be absorbable, but Nagato may not have been able to react only X or so meters outside of the dust cloud. If so, this would leave Nagato with only Deva Path, which is his most frequent X and X maneuver - one that possesses a cool down period that leaves the immobile Nagato entirely vulnerable to the Totsuka held by Susano'o or the kunai held by Itachi.
     
  7. Scorpion GET OVER HERE!

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    In-Depth Analysis
    X
    Opening
    Before my Team?s In-Depth Analysis, I would like to thank the individuals who organized this Greater Debate, my remarkable Teammates, the opposing Team, the Judges, and the Spectators. It?s an honor to be part of this event, and this is the first one for me. Arguing for Nagato in the Battle-dome is something I greatly enjoy, and I hope my input here will aid in my Team in our road to victory. With that aside, let?s get started.

    * All areas italicized and in blue are part of our Opening Speech by Ace.

    Nagato's Offense

    While defensive measures are important and will be taken by Nagato, it is very important to elaborate on his offensive capabilities. Even compared to Uchiha Madara, Nagato's abilities are the most destructive in the manga. Countering Itachi's techniques is a large role in winning this fight, but the ability to put Itachi down is the most important factor. Nagato's summons and his Shinra Tensei have enough variation to ultimately put Itachi down. The next couple of Subheadings will be in regards to his many offensive fighting styles.

    Nagato?s main offense consists of four of the six main powers of the Rinnegan. This is the power of Tendō, Shuradō, Chikushōdo, and Ningendō. Each of these abilities grants the user an extremely powerful offensive.

    Tendō?s offensive abilities lie in its main technique, X. The power of Shinra Tensei can vary from simply launching a nail at high speeds towards a target, to the X. Shinra Tensei has been depicted to be an instantaneous technique, and its only weakness being the five second interval created after each use of the jutsu. This technique will be the most effective in defeating Itachi, and will be the main reason for Nagato?s victory.

    The power Shuradō is almost entirely offense in its own. It allows the user to X, and modify it to suite different situations. The user can produce X. These arms can then be modified into individual laser cannons, open to X, or launch at high speeds at a target. The user can X, X. Although Shuradō isn?t strong enough to break through Susano?o, it will still effectively put Itachi on the defensive, and in many cases save Nagato from attacks such as shuriken techniques and possibly Amaterasu.

    Chikushōdō grants the user the ability to summon an armada of X. These boss summons not only serve the Rinnegan user in overwhelming their target, but also provide X. Although not as potent as the previous two abilities, Chikushōdō has proved more than useful for Nagato in battle, and in this fight it will be of utter importance.

    Ningendō?s main ability is X. The potency if this technique comes from the fact that its prerequisites are simplyX of the soul extraction. And as you?ve probably assumed, once the extraction is complete, the target is done for. In combination with Banshō Ten?in, this technique becomes very lethal.

    With these four abilities used offensively, even a single opening can be fatal for Itachi. To protect himself from these techniques, primarily those of Tendō and Shuradō, using Susano?o is imperative. However, these techniques can be pretty much spammed by Nagato, whilst maintaining Susano?o is a fairly grim task on Itachi?s part.

    Nagato's Mobility and his Summons

    The summons Nagato possesses are his most valued asset in this fight. As stated in the manga, don't fight an Uchiha 1v1. This is not something Nagato has to worry about. Of course, he will attempt to avoid eye contact. However, his summoned creatures have the ability to compensate for his loss of eye contact through linked vision. And without being distracted in this scenario, the summons he places on the battlefield will all be focused on a single target, completely negating any speed advantages Itachi would ultimately have over Nagato.

    In the manga, Itachi was capable of blinding the Jigakudō's King of Hell and the chameleon summon, allowing him to sever Nagato's arms before he could activate Gakidō. However, one must take into account the following advantages Itachi had there which he lacks here:
    - Nagato was controlled like a puppet by Kabuto, who conveniently X
    - The chameleon summons single Rinnegan was X, rendering it incapable of dodging Itachi's shuriken techniques as X. The King of Hell is immobile entirely, so dodging the shuriken was out of its reach as well.
    - Nagato himself and Jigakudō?s King of Hell were X from.

    And to add to this list, Nagato possesses knowledge on Itachi?s mastery over the shuriken techniques and his analytical abilities. It?s highly unlikely Nagato?s summons will fall victim to blinding, and with so many pairs of linked Rinnegan, there are virtually no blind-spots for Itachi to take advantage of.

    The Cerebrus is subject to Amaterasu after Itachi figures out how to counter it. However, the only logical way would be Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, or Susano'o. All are Mangekyou Sharingan related, and all of which dispense a very large amount of chakra. Something Nagato has in abundance and spared little to summon Cerebrus in the first place.

    Despite the likely inevitable end of the Cerberus summon, its life on the battlefield can be prolonged by keeping it in its X. Itachi is very much still capable of defeating it by dragging his Amaterasu across to each dog, though this will even further take a toll on his chakra as well as his body, and will leave him open to Nagato?s attacks while using the technique. Nagato himself can also keep the Cerberus alive by countering Amaterasu via a X. Amaterasu seems like Itachi?s only definite solution to defeating this summon, aside from killing Nagato himself. And giving up a single summon, albeit the strongest one, for a X seems like a decent trade for Nagato.

    So while Nagato's mobility is limited, his ability to compensate is completely viable. Should he choose to he can also manage to move himself around with invisibility via Chameleon or flying with a giant bird summon.

    It can also be noted that Nagato can revive his summons via Jigakudō in a case that they are killed, as seen with the Chameleon summon, X. Using Jigakudō?s ability seems to be very cheap in chakra consumption, while in turn killing the summons will certainly drain Itachi to a degree. This way, Nagato will always have some form of mobility and range during the battle, and will in turn assist him in keeping the pace of the fight.
     
  8. Scorpion GET OVER HERE!

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    Shinra Tensei

    The force behind a Shinra Tensei isn't something to be merely shrugged off. The power behind a single Shinra Tensei had the ability to lift three giant toad frogs, whom were able to physically fight off giant summons, while casually throwing them out of the leaf village from its epicenter. They all broke their bones in the process. Itachi's body itself isn't particularly tough nor is it on the level of the Raikage and his family. If he manages to take a hit from a single full powered Shinra Tensei, there's a very good chance it could incapacitate him in the process.

    The Shinra Tensei used on the three Mountain Toads was from dead body equipped with Tendō used at a large distance from Nagato?s location. When Nagato uses his own body for the abilities of Pain Rikudō, all X. If Nagato puts enough force into his Shinra Tensei, he can very easily incapacitate Itachi and send him to the next zip-code.

    Shinra Tensei is also a complete counter to Susano'o. Susano'o does have the ability to anchor it's user to the ground, although the extent to which it can resist Shinra Tensei is questionable. In any sense, this would be a pointless task to carry out. Even if the user is anchored, they would still be subject to the full force of the blow.

    This is also with the assumption that Susano?o actually can counter Shinra Tensei by anchoring itself. Shinra Tensei has a unique X. It?s not far-fetched to say Nagato can dispel the technique entirely, and leave Itachi open to attacks from his summons.

    Itachi?s Yata no Kagami seems like a viable counter to the force of Shinra Tensei; effectively counteracting it in the same way Naruto did in his six-tailed Kyūbi form and with Kage Bunshin. Though this cannot be known for certain, I will assume it can. Shinra Tensei should still have a deadly effect on the remaining areas of Susano?o, including Itachi. As seen when Pain used Shinra Tensei X and Naruto, the ground behind the targets was destroyed as well. In Naruto?s case, X. Essentially it should be the same when Nagato hits the Yata no Kagami with Shinra Tensei; with the Yata no Kagami resisting the force, the rest of Susano?o will dispel, and Itachi will be severely damaged, if not incapacitated.

    Banshō Ten?in

    Banshō Ten?in is a very unique ability in that it can't be placed in a very distinctive category. Its main usage would be to draw Itachi out for offensive purposes, but it can also be used on the surrounding environment to help him in said situation he's placed in. It can be used defensively as well to pull summons out of harm?s way. It's also entirely possible that instead of using Banshō Ten?in on a summon, Nagato uses it on Susano'o itself.

    Banshō Ten?in can indeed be the decisive factor in this match-up. If Itachi at any point lowers his guard and is drawn into Nagato?s grasp, he is practically defeated. Unless Susano?o is in its armored form, it will not help him at a close distance due to Gakidō, and his shuriken techniques can swatted aside and/or blocked by Shuradō?s arms and tail. As seen with the many instances Banshō Ten?in was used, the victims were X, and were forced to X, if any.

    Banshō Ten?in is one of those situation based techniques that comes in handy every now and then, and its mechanics are simply Shinra Tensei in reverse. It's a very effective technique to counter Susano'o with.

    From what we?ve seen in Nagato?s battle against Kakashi and Naruto, he can select individual targets to use Tendō?s abilities on. In one instance, X. Another instance would be when he pulls the nail out of the wooden board, and only the nail. In his fight with Naruto, he used Shinra Tensei in the direction of Naruto and Gakidō, yet X. With this in mind, Nagato should be able to draw Itachi out of his Susano?o, and into his Gakidō master-lock, Ningendō, or Shuradō?s binding and arm cannon combination. If need be, Nagato can have his summons temporarily immobilize Susano?o. Itachi?s best bet in this situation would be to have Susano?o grab him as he?s pulled out. However, this will be near impossible if Susano?o is in its armored state, as it is wielding its two Legendary Treasures in both arms.

    Chibaku Tensei

    It may be a slightly different opinion than many posters on this forum, but our Team believes that Chibaku Tensei is not needed and its usage would be absolute overkill. It will be elaborated on in the defensive section, but the abilities Nagato has are large counters to Itachi's Susano'o.

    However, if necessary, Chibaku Tensei will be used to completely subdue Itachi. The force behind the technique is enough to completely crush Itachi should it gain enough mass, even with Susano'o activated. Recent chapters have shown that Madara was completely blown to pieces even with Susano'o activated, in the face of a large destructive meteor. And while Itachi does have his mirror, it's simply one sided. It's not a full coverage of Susano'o.
    As for Itachi's ranged attack, the room for speculation is too high. Unless Team Itachi manages to come up with a quantified analysis on how strong said technique is and how much it contributed to the destruction of the Chibaku Tensei he faced, the assumption that he would be crushed in the process is the most logical conclusion to draw in this situation.
    Chibaku Tensei is an endgame technique which is not something you can simply shield yourself from or run away from. It's the most destructive technique in the manga, even more so than Madara's meteors.


    Itachi?s only two possible answers to Chibaku Tensei are the Yasaka no Magatama and Amaterasu. However, both techniques are certainly not enough to stop the core from drawing Itachi inside and crushing him. The Yasaka no Magatama lacks any sort of destructive feats, and there is no reason to say it is stronger than a six-tailed Bijūdama, X. And the Chibaku Tensei was formed from a dead corpse used at a distance from a heavily fatigued Nagato. I suppose one could argue that Yasaka no Magatama was X, however this is merely speculation. Also, each individual attack shouldn?t be enough to destroy the core anyway. Amaterasu is a very inconsistent technique. One day it burns quickly, the other slowly. But from the majority of occurrences, Amaterasu burns far too slowly, and the most it?ll accomplish is pulling Itachi into a burning sun. By the time the core is burnt, Itachi would have already been dealt with. And keep in mind that if he survives the attack, he would have exhausted a large amount of chakra maintaining Susano?o, for both staying alive in the miniature moon as well as survive the after debris that would be covered in black flames. Nagato on the other hand should still be in good shape to fight, considering his large and powerful chakras granted by being an Uzumaki.

    Nagato's Defense

    Nagato's body is frail and therefore needs several forms of defensive measures to protect himself. Of course, one of the ways is by shielding himself with summons. Said summons can also be used aggressively, distracting Itachi from Nagato, ultimately protecting himself. But he also has several techniques that can be used should he be caught out. The next couple of subheadings will deal with his defensive techniques, as well as his counters to some of Itachi's more annoying abilities.

    Nagato?s main defense lies in the linked vision attribute gained from the eyes of his summons. Essentially giving him 360* vision, Nagato cannot be surprise attacked in almost all cases, and can see an attack coming a mile away. Even when blinded, say by Itachi?s Katon: Gōkakyū, the linked vision will still allow him to keep an eye on Itachi?s position and the state of his Susano?o. As Itachi knows of this major advantage on Nagato?s end, it is likely he?ll aim for slaughtering the summons early on. However, Nagato can simply keep the invisible chameleon summon at a distance from the battlefield and have it speculate the fight. And unlike the fight that occurred in the manga, Nagato has his complete arsenal of creatures at his leisure, and is entirely focused on one target, Itachi.
     
  9. Scorpion GET OVER HERE!

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    Shinra Tensei

    Shinra Tensei isn't just for offensive purposes as most people realize. It's a very effective form of defense. Basically, Shinra Tensei has the ability to repel any tangible objects being thrown his way. It's possibly one of the most basic forms of defense in the manga. It's also one of the most effective.
    Repel anything coming your way. The versatility of Shinra Tensei is something that shouldn't be taken lightly.


    Combined with its defensive properties, Nagato can vary the range of Shinra Tensei and have it simultaneously X. Using the technique in this manor will keep Itachi from taking advantage of the five second interval after the Shinra Tensei, as this time period would be more used to recover from the hit.

    Chakra Absorption

    Sometimes I wonder if this technique was a backup plan for a failed Shinra Tensei. Chakra absorption can absorb any form of Ninjutsu that is physically harmful to Nagato should it not be repelled by Shinra Tensei. This makes basically every non-Genjutsu related technique in Itachi's arsenal completely useless. His reliance on his Mangekyou Sharingan becomes even heavier. And with that his chakra usage becomes even more of a problem. Not only does it completely render physical Ninjutsu useless, it also forces Itachi to bring out his big guns early.

    With Gakidō in his Nagatos repertoire, Itachi is significantly limited in his offense. He is practically restricted to Genjutsu, shuriken techniques, and his armored Susanoo, all of which can be countered. One of the most heated debates in Itachi vs. Pain/Nagato threads is whether or not Gakidōs ability would allow Nagato to absorb Itachis Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami. Whether it can or cannot absorb the two Legendary Items will not exactly be the decisive factor in this fight, though it is still very important.

    In Gakidōs defense, I believe the two Legendary Items can be absorbed. Weve seen Gakidō able to absorb even Natural Energy. Yes, Itachis weapons are stated to be spiritual. However, one must take into account that Susanoo, a chakra construct, is able to wield them. From this, it isnt far-fetched to say that the items manifest in chakra form, making them physical, in which case allows the Totsuka no Tsurugi to physically pierce through a target. As seen with the Fuinjutsu: Shiki Fūjin, spiritual attacks do not cause any physical harm. Itachis weapons do, however.

    Conversely, the items may actually be in spiritual form and wont be subject to Gakidōs technique. If the items cannot be absorbed, Nagato still has a way to combat them. The Rinnegan allows the user to see chakra, similar to the Sharingan. With this in mind, Nagato should be able to distinguish the Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagamis none chakra properties from the rest of Susanoo, and keep his Shinra Tensei on the ready, and stay out of Itachi's range via summons.

    Countering Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi

    Itachi's Genjutsu is possibly the best in the manga. His use of it is very versatile and very lethal if landed. However, contrary to popular belief, it is not impossible to completely counter Genjutsu related techniques. Of course, the first thing would be to avoid eye contact, a simple task that Nagato could accomplish by using constant animal summons as a way to compensate for the reduction in his visual field. If the animals are subject to Genjutsu, Nagato is not. After all, if shared senses hindered Nagato in any way, the frog song would have taken him out as well after his Paths managed to hear it themselves. The sheer amount of summons makes it unlikely that Itachi can cut off every single form of vision Nagato manages to set up without being spotted and attacked.

    Another instance of Genjutsu not transferring through a puppet if you want to call it is when Edo Tensei Itachi was put under Koto-Amatsu-Kami. In this case, Kabuto was unaffected by the technique entirely. As we know, Kabuto does control his Edo Tensei in practically the same manner as Nagato does his dead corpses and summons. He hears and sees everything they do (and likely other senses as well), but he himself is unaffected entirely.

    Even if Nagato is caught in Itachis Genjutsu, his linked vision will most definitely counter the illusion. From a different angle if you want to call it, hell be able to distinguish reality from illusion, and effectively ignore the illusion and proceed to counter whatever attack Itachi is cloaking.

    Recent revelations have shown that Rinnegan to be the most evolved form of the Sharingan. And while it is true that Nagato's Rinnegan did not progress through each stage of the Sharingan as Madara's had, I find this to be a moot point. The only difference between Madara's Rinnegan and Nagato's is the ability to switch between Sharingan related techniques and Rinnegan related ones. The basic Genjutsu defense of the Rinnegan should be equal or greater to that of the Sharingan. His ability to break out of Genjutsu is entirely possible, although the chances of him getting caught are reduced severely by his fighting style.

    With the Rinnegan being an evolved form of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, breaking out of Tsukuyomi should not be very difficult for Nagato. Sasuke was able to break the Genjutsu with the simplest form of the Sharingan combined with his skill. Nagato was stated to be a master of the Rinnegan, the most advanced form of the Sharingan.

    One most also note that Nagato himself is proficient at Genjutsu use. He put mind seal barriers on ninja's so advanced it stumped Konoha's interrogators. And said jutsu was not just used on one or two ninja. Nagato managed to place information blocking Genjutsu on an entire village of ninja, without ever making face to face contact with any of them.

    Nagato was also stated to be a master of the Yin Release due to his Rinnegan, which Genjutsu is a sub-category of.

    Countering Amaterasu

    This was a much easier topic to cover than Tsukiyomi. Before I begin I'd like to point out the fact that Nagato, in his confrontation with Naruto and Bee, managed to feel Amaterasu's pressure without even looking at Itachi's eyes. This works perfectly with the strategy of avoiding eye contact.

    Of course, Amaterasu travels extremely fast. But the manga has already provided a counter to Amaterasu, which is Shinra Tensei. He can also use his jutsu absorption ability to make sure the technique itself ceases to affect him. Amaterasu is much less a factor on Nagato and in the most likely case would simply be used to counter to large summons placed on the battlefield.


    Amaterasu is a very powerful technique on Itachis part, but its charge is what really gives the opponent the opening to exploit. The initial charge of the attack is relatively long, and as stated before, the pressure of Amaterasu can be sensed. Nagato can effectively counter the attack by placing a defensive summon in Itachis line-of-sight. He can also shoot a couple missiles with Shuradō, forcing Itachi on the defensive and simultaneously putting up a smoke-screen to block Itachis line-of-sight. Unlike the instance in the manga, Nagato is in full control of his body. Hence if Amaterasu hits him, he will immediately counter with either Shinra Tensei or Gakidō, well before the attack does any serious damage. If however, he does end up losing a limb or two, he can heal himself with a quick use of Jigakudō. It should also be noted that Nagato had to cover for Itachi with Shinra Tensei while he was charging Amaterasu, indicating that if Nagato gets a clean hit on Itachi, he may be able to temporarily stop Amaterasu.

    Concluding the In-Depth Analysis

    Nagato has a much higher chance of victory in this battle than Itachi does. He has swift counters to any and all of Itachi's techniques, whilst the same cannot be said the other way around. Nagato's techniques give him an overwhelmingly powerful offense, as well as a near unbreakable defense, all exhibit Nagato's superiority among these two powerful Dōjutsu users.
     
  10. Sans Bad Time

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    The Greater Debate: Itachi versus Nagato

    Team Itachi; Third Speaker: Komnenos

    X
    _________________________________________________​

    Preface

    Welcome to the Greater Debate! My goal during this event is to refute the points presented by Team Nagato's Second Speaker; Scorpion. Before doing so, I would also like to thank everyone involved, and those taking the time to read.

    Introduction

    As I am simply rebutting Scorpion's points, my speech has not been organised as a typical essay. Instead, I have gathered relevant points made by the previous speech, and will respond to them on a case by case basis. In this manner, I will comprehensively point out the flaws in Team Nagato's stance.

    The following sections cover Nagato's offensive abilities.


    Supplemental Offensive Paths

    Asura

    It should be noted that Nagato is largely featless concerning most of these techniques. Moreover, if he possessed the same abilities as Asura, he would not have mobility issues. X

    In addition, Asura's missiles have never struck anyone with notable speed. Kakashi has seemingly dodged them without a scratch. X X What's more, it is likely that the additional arms only overcame Kirabi due to surprise, as Nagato's speed is still unimpressive. X As Itachi has knowledge on them, the scenario will not repeat itself.

    Animal

    Nagato typically takes no care to Summons working in tandem, allowing them to be picked off one by one. X They are typically superfluous at this level as well. Deva proved so when he casually manoeuvred around multiple Frogs, and Itachi replicated this by breaking the Rinnegan's connection with ease. X X

    Cerberus' duplicates only when wounded. X Considering Itachi's willingness to employ the Mangekyou against it, there will be no chance for Cerberus to multiply. X Defending with additional Summons is unfeasible, as Nagato has never reacted to Amaterasu. He incorrectly identified the build-up of Koto-Amatsukami as Amaterasu, and then failed to react when Amaterasu was actually used. X X X

    The Chameleon was not resurrected with the standard Naraka Path's technique. It is is now heavily bandaged, indicating alternative means were used. X Such a stance explains why the Chameleon was not resurrected immediately after death.

    Human

    Nagato only subjected Naruto to Soul Ripping through entrapment by the Chameleon; such a tactic won't work on Itachi. X There is a good chance the Sharingan can discern the Chameleon as well, as it has already been detected twice. Ma rapidly sensed it out, and Naruto was staring right at it. X X Naruto was likely simply confused due to disconnect between his visual and sensory abilities; not something that would afflict Itachi. X

    Even if Nagato does successfully begin the technique, it appears to take some time against powerful opponents. X During this time-frame Nagato is awfully exposed to Tsukiyomi, and potential Bunshin feints. X X
     
  11. Sans Bad Time

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    Jikukan Ninjutsu

    Shinra Tensei

    That dead body was the source of Nagato's most developed Chibaku Tensei, and most powerful Shinra Tensei. X X In fact, Nagato's own usage appears incredibly similar in range. X X X X

    Furthermore many surmise that the targets mass affects the potency of Shinra Tensei; as it manipulates gravity. That is why small projectiles are merely knocked away, Kakashi is sent flying (but alive) and gigantic Summons are incapacitated. X X

    Itachi's Susano'o yielded not one inch when confronted with Orochimaru's Yamata technique, and none of the force was transferred to Itachi. X

    Shinra Tensei cannot be used destructively and disperse jutsu simultaneously; as seen when Raikiri was not nullified. X More importantly, jutsu negation appears to have an incredibly short range. X X X

    Furthermore, it has been proven that Shinra Tensei is not infallible; it can be turned back. X If this is the case, it is likely the legendary, nature altering Yata no Kagami can also replicate the feat. X X In such a scenarion, Nagato would receive substantial wounds. X

    Firstly, it is impossible to bypass the Yata no Kagami; its height and width easily protects Itachi himself. X Secondly, damaging the technique is immaterial. Danzou's assaults on Susano'o have already proven it does not destabilise, or arbitrarily fail to protect the user when damaged. X

    Nagato is willing to expend cool-downs on threats as small as a kunai. X He has displayed very little foresight with the jutsu, simply using it whenever available. When combined with Itachi's tactical maneuvres, speed and Bunshin usage; Nagato will be struggling with the five second cool-down. X X X

    Bansho Ten'in

    Nagato has only targeted enemies with Bansho Ten'in, and he has never attempted to save Summons with it. Nagato has powerful jutsu, no one can deny that; however he does not apply those jutsu skillfully. He has not fired missiles at targets trapped by Bansho Ten'in, let alone undertaken these unorthodox tactics.

    Even if possible, drawing in Susano'o alone would be a grievous mistake. Susano'o was operating independently when it sealed Nagato. X X This course of action would leave Nagato facing the absurdly fast Totsuka no Tsurugi at close range, while Itachi would remain out of danger.

    Hand-seals are not rendered impotent, considering Kakashi made extensive hand-movements to combat the jutsu. X Itachi has also demonstrated complete ease in mid-air combat. X X

    Itachi also has many options available to combat Bansho Ten'in. Depending on the level of Susano'o manifested, either Yasaka no Magatama or the Totsuka no Tsurugi are plausible. X X Dis-incorporated Karasu Bunshins could distract Nagato, or place him under Sharingan Genjutsu. X X Unless Nagato's featless Genjutsu resilience trumps that of a perfect Jinchuriki's, Itachi will already have exploited the opening as well. X In addition, Itachi was also capable of placing the far more mobile Kirabi under Genjutsu in close range. X Therefore, Nagato may find himself subjected to Tsukiyomi if Itachi is too close. X

     
  12. Sans Bad Time

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    Susano'o negates the force acting upon the user. Itachi resisted Chibaku Tensei with Susano'o, which is itself a gravitational pull jutsu. X Susano'o is also not obstructed from grabbing Itachi, as it has an additional hand. X


    Chibaku Tensei

    Every technique has a weakness. X Chibaku Tensei's is that it requires time to become awe-inspiring. Such a weakness plays perfectly to Itachi's strengths; his speed and intelligence will allow him to combat the jutsu before it becomes invincible.

    Indeed, time acts against Chibaku Tensei in more ways than one. When in-character, Nagato decided to employ the jutsu after nine chapters of combat. In two small skirmishes, Itachi made Chibaku Tensei impossible without Edo Tensei regeneration. X Itachi's methods of victory are incredibly fast techniques; such rapidity prevents Nagato from concluding Chibaku Tensei is necessary, before it is too late.

    Chibaku Tensei was successfully destroyed after Itachi discerned its weakness, and then relayed that weakness to Kirabi and Naruto. X With knowledge and no companions, Itachi's counter-measures will take place virtually instantly; when the jutsu is much less developed. X

    Nagato's iteration was far less developed before Itachi responded, and that was with an aforementioned delay. X Nevertheless the assault resisted, in no way, represented the true power of Rokubi Naruto's Bijuudama. X

    While the true strength of Yasaka no Magatama is speculative, narratively we can realise it is powerful. Not only has Itachi stated Yasaka no Magatama is his greatest attack, the name itself carries strong connotations of power. X X When all this is factored in, a different picture emerges. A vastly overhyped Chibaku Tensei, confronted with an obviously powerful jutsu, while at the nadir of its power.

    What is more, Team Nagato has ignored an obvious weakness in Chibaku Tensei: the caster himself. Nagato still lacks mobility, and with his vision obstructed by the debris generated, may find himself vulnerable to attack. X X

    The following sections concern themselves with Nagato's defensive capabilities.
     
  13. Sans Bad Time

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    Defensive Abilities​


    Linked Vision

    Jiraiya has already shown that versatile characters can bypass the Rinnegan's shared vision through tactics. X Not only is Itachi more intelligent than Jiraiya, he possesses superior speed, more flexible Bunshin variants and Genjutsu to replicate the same feat. X

    Genjutsu will also be vastly effective here. Nagato's Summons appear to operate in the same method as Pain Rikudo, which has already demonstrated a weakness against illusions. X

    Blinding has been demonstrably useful against the Rinnegan as well, and Itachi has already shown proclivity towards it. X X When combined all these factors are combined, Itachi will be incapacitating Summons faster than Nagato can deploy them.

    Preta

    Nagato's jutsu provides no defence against Genjutsu, which can either end the battle or create openings for other assaults. X X Preta also requires the target to contact the barrier; Amaterasu would manifest within, thus causing five seconds of intense damage. X When surprised, Nagato is unable to erect the technique; which can be brought about by Bunshin and Ninjutsu feints, or the sheer speed of the Totsuka no Tsurugi. X X X

    Natural Energy is closely linked to chakra, capable of melding with its two components to create a more powerful version. X Therefore it is not a huge leap for Preta to affect Natural Energy.

    However no such relationship has been established between spiritual objects and chakra. Susano'o wielding them is not sufficient proof, as Danzou is not spiritual by dint of interacting with the technique. X The only remaining argument is that spiritual typically implies "intangible", yet no evidence suggests "spiritual" doesn't merely denote a new substance. After all, chakra in the setting bears no resemblance to its real world incarnation as well. X
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
  14. Sans Bad Time

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    Countering Itachi's Offense​


    Genjutsu

    Maito Gai's method of combating the Sharingan requires training, merely being aware of it is not sufficient. X X Relying on Summons as alternative vision is not feasible, considering they too can be subjected to Genjutsu, and be dealt with rapidly.

    Genjutsu affects the singular mind behind each body, as demonstrated by Magen: Gamarinsho. X Genjutsu can already take affect through secondary mediums, or the Moons Eye Plan would be impossible. X

    Nagato was capable of conversing within Magen: Gamarinsho, proving that his consciousness was trapped within, not merely dead bodies. X While Nagato did not materalise within the Genjutsu, the entire scene was an illusion representing foreign chakra invading Nagato's mind. There weren't literally giant Frogs present as well. X Further corroborating this assertion is the timing of Nagato's counter-attack. Nagato would prefer for Jiraiya to not render bodies inoperable. X However Asura only ambushed Jiraiya after the Genjutsu had been released, indicating that Nagato himself was bound. X As such, Itachi's Genjutsu overrides Nagato's shared vision.

    The Sharingan is still derived from the Rikudou Sennin's older son. X Madara only awakened the Rinnegan after stealing Senju DNA to become a Sage. X The Rinnegan is not specifically a more advanced version of the Sharingan, but the outcome of combination with another kekkei genkei.

    While the Rinnegan may be superior in overall quality, it is the Sharingan with established feats in Genjutsu. Just as the Rinnegan cannot create illusions, summon chakra beings or spawn black flames, you cannot ascribe the Genjutsu qualities of the Sharingan onto it due to general superiority.

    Defeating Tsukiyomi requires both the Mangekyou Sharingan and superior Genjutsu aptitude to the user; Nagato has neither. X Sasuke's victory over the illusion does not mesh with these facts. He did not possess the Mangekyou, and his Genjutsu feats and hype are both consistently below Itachi's. X X Feats from a fight Itachi intended to lose are a poor representation of potency. X

    There is a difference between defending against interrogation techniques, and battlefield Genjutsu. Certainly, these Genjutsu barriers failed to materialise the one time Nagato was confronted with Genjutsu. Regardless, it is more likely that Konan erected those defensive techniques. Not only do they follow a paper theme, Konan was the one who interacted with Ame ninja; not Nagato. X X

    Nagato was stated to possess an affinity for Yin techniques, which is vastly different. X Compare Wave Arc Sasuke and Current Sasuke. One has the potential to master Raiton techniques, the other has realised said potential. Nevertheless, Yin techniques do not necessarily relate to Genjutsu, so vague assertions of skill cannot match Itachi's superlative feats in the area.

    Amaterasu

    Nagato's inability to react to Amaterasu has already been expounded upon. As such, he is wholly incapable of taking counter-measures against the jutsu.

    Countering with Shinra Tensei assumes it is available for use. Dubious, as Nagato is rather careless with the jutsu. Kakashi was capable of discerning the cool-down rapidly; once Itachi does so, Amaterasu can be timed for maximum effect. X Preta cannot absorb a technique that does not interact with the barrier created.

    Naraka's resurrection technique revived Preta over the course of chapters. X X Itachi is also capable of interacting with the King of Hell. X Even with a time-frame magnitudes shorter than in the manga, Nagato would be fatally exposed.


    Closing​


    While both are supremely talented shinobi, it is Itachi who would emerge the victor. Nagato's arsenal may be powerful, but the skill with which he applies it is lacklustre. When combined with very real issues concerning speed and weak Genjutsu resistance, Nagato is incapable of matching Itachi's more tactical approach.

    Conversely, Itachi commands both power and intellect. Because of this, Itachi can successfully utilise even basic jutsu with startling efficiency, in contrast to Nagato; completely reliant on the Rinnegan. Ultimately, this is what results in victory for Itachi. Superior skill allows him to apply far more techniques at a far greater pace. As such, even Nagato's impressive defenses will be overcome, and the Mangekyou requires but a few shots to destroy an opponent.
     
  15. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato3rd Speaker for Nagato

    Intro
    Greetings fanboys and girls, I would like to formally welcome you to the Greater Debate. I'd first like to begin by introducing myself—I am Empathy, the third speaker for Nagato. Nagato Uzumaki vs Itachi Uchiha is undoubtedly one of the highest most debated topics in battledome history, and has been for quite some time now(though until recently Pain was usually used in his stead). With some of the more recent chapters featuring Itachi with Naruto's and Killer Bee's aid and their triumphant victory over Nagato, it has only extraordinarily increased in popularity. Before I get on with my rebuttals, I would like to give some credit where it is due. I would first like to thank the organizers of this event; Komnenos and Strategos. I would also like to thank my teammates; Lightysnake, Ace, and Scorpion. I wanna thank Strategos, Nikushimi, Komnenos, and Akatsuki no Tenshi for participating on the opposing team and wish them luck. And thank our adjudicators; Sanbi, The Pirate on Wheels, Puppetry, and our main adjudicator—Thunder. As well as thank our BD moderators, Winchester and Akatsuki no Tenshi, for allowing us to partake in this event. Lastly, I would like to thank future voters and everyone who is taking the time to read these lengthy speeches. I will try to provide supportive evidence to back why I believe Nagato would emerge the victor if the two ever fought. Hopefully, my usage of depth in my interpretation will ultimately lead to success in my endeavor.


    Hype
    There's no denying that both combatants have substantial hype. But Nagato has superior hype. Not only was Nagato made the Akatsuki leader(who was really being manipulated behind the shadows by Tobi), while Itachi was only a member, but he possess the X. The Rinnegan, which is stated to be the X X of the Sharingan. The stages of the Sharingan go in the following order: It starts with less than three tomoe → evolves next into the maximum three tomoe → then the Mangekyou Sharingan, which Itachi possess → next the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan → and finally the Rinnegan, which Nagato possess.

    Previously, both were praised as the ultimate Doujutsu in both the databooks and the manga. There was much controversial debate on which one was the true 'ultimate Doujutsu.' Now we've confirmation that the Rinnegan is actually superior to the Mangekyou Sharingan. Itachi advocates answer to this was Zetsu's X about how quality in skill can make up for inferiority in power. This statement is not untrue however, Nagato is not a novice, he's an expert. Itachi is also an expert, but an expert with an inferior tool. An expert with a shuriken can defeat another expert with a rock. It doesn't matter if the other is the more skilled or not, unless that skill is great enough to cover the lesser skill and fill the gap in power. If Nagato were a novice with the Rinnegan, with just superior eyes, then sure, Itachi would defeat Nagato. But that's not the case. Nagato has both the skill and power. You're not trading quality for quantity in power. You're trading quality for both quality and quantity in power.

    Itachi's skill cannot make up for the considerable gap in power between eyes, or the stone and shuriken. The disparity in power is too substantial, and Nagato is already extremely skilled in his own right. Whomever is the more skilled with their eyes doesn't matter, because Nagato is already too strong for that skill to overcome the gap in power. Itachi's not strong enough for his skill to carry him through the battle. I could be extremely adept with a X and still loose in a firefight to a guy with a X(links are just for you non-firearm savvy people). Especially if that guy is also skilled with his weapon as well. I'd also like to point out that Kabuto's X about Itachi being on another level is a mistranslation. Kabuto really says something like 'Uchiha Itachi . . . what I guy! Not even Edo Tensei can hold him!' or "I made light of him . . . Itachi Uchiha . . . this one is clearly different than an average Joe/an ordinary or normal one . . . Even this Edo Tensei is . . .(beaten by him)."

    The kanji used probably has something to do with greatly astonishing or different(out of the ordinary). I think it could also mean 'clearly different from the others' as in it's completely different from the X X X. The other translation isn't necessarily incorrect but it's a bit free or broad and open-ended. Even if that translation were accurate we've got to take what Kabuto said into context. Kabuto could have been referring to him underestimating Itachi because he completely broke free from his control, were others just resisted it. Kabuto's comment was probably sparked in the heat of the moment because he didn't expect Shisui Uchiha to come flying out of Naruto's mouth. Kabuto's word isn't gospel. I'd find it hard to believe that Itachi was not only stronger than Nagato, but in a completely different ballpark than the 'Child of Prophecy,' 'Third Rikudou,' and 'Savior of the World,' Nagato Uzumaki. I don't think it's unfathomable to say Nagato is weaker than Itachi. But to think he is in a completely different tier than Nagato, is something I find to be an absurd, ludicrous notion(to say the least).


    Itachi could not have won that battle on his own
    One of the biggest reasons why this debate is so controversial and has only grown more in popularity lately is due to their battle during the war, were Itachi successfully X Nagato. It's easy to overlook Naruto's and Bee's presence and give Itachi all of the credit when you consider what little Naruto and Bee contributed offensively, once Itachi joined forces with them. But Itachi could not have accomplished what he did without them. I admit, Itachi did the majority of the dirty work. Naruto and Bee barely contributed offensively once Itachi broke free from Kabuto's control, besides attacking the core of Chibaku Tensei on Itachi's order. I cannot stress more how Itachi could not have succeeded in sealing him without them and how essential they were. Make no mistake, Itachi's performance is not a replicable feat with neutral conditions, not favoring Itachi, one-on-one. If the author really wanted to portray Itachi as superior, he could've had Itachi send Naruto and Bee ahead, and leave him to deal with Nagato, alone.

    Itachi broke free of Edo Tensei by triggering Shisui's eye to activate and layer Kotoamatsukami on top of Edo Tensei, X X. He programmed the crow to come out on Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan activation. Predicting that Sasuke would seek out the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan's power and transplant his eyes, the activation of Itachi's eyes in his final battle with Naruto would cause the crow to activate and cast Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke. He left the inscription programmed on it: "protect the village of Konoha" to mind control Sasuke into protecting Konoha. By facing Naruto and activating his own Mangekyou he triggered Kotoamatsukami on himself, with the inscription about protecting Konoha left on it, overriding Kabuto's control. That's how he was able to join forces with Naruto and Bee. They needed him to seal Nagato, because they lacked a practical Fuinjutsu to use on him. Bee has his X X, but that wouldn't work against Nagato. He could likely absorb it or easily blow it away with Shinra Tensei. But Itachi could not have sealed Nagato without Naruto's and Bee's assistance, along with Kabuto's own negligence.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  16. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato3rd Speaker for Nagato

    While Naruto and Bee provided no offensive support, they did provide the necessary distraction for Itachi to accomplish that. Nagato attacked them X. We don't see Itachi is again until X, when he rescues Naruto and Bee. During the time that Nagato was beating Naruto and Bee, we can presume Itachi was busy setting up Susanoo and putting kunai in the Rinnegan's blind-spots. No bunshin will suffice for the distraction Naruto and Bee provided. With Nagato's full attention focused on Itachi, he won't be able to blindside him like he did there. Kabuto's incompetence and ineptitude also played a big role there as well.

    Kabuto had momentarily X X about Itachi's entire existence. With just them one-on-one, this won't happen again. Nagato will be giving Itachi his undivided attention. He won't have Kabuto's negligence and Naruto's and Bee's distraction to rely on. So he won't be able to get around linked vision and X his stationary summons, and amputate his arm again, like he did there. There's no reason in the first amputation instance why Nagato couldn't have absorbed it with Fuujutsu Kyuuin or dispersed it with Shinra Tensei the second it appeared. But Kabuto was piloting Nagato and he was more focused on one of his strongest Edos running rampant, at the moment. It's not like he had to worry about Nagato being harmed—he'd always regenerate. Nagato himself, obviously isn't going to fight back. He doesn't even wish to fight them.

    I don't see how it matters if Nagato had both his arms amputated against Itachi, because he's got X to spare. Itachi also could not have survived Chibaku Tensei on his own. It was previously an unknown factor if Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama could destroy Chibaku Tensei's core by itself. We didn't know Chibaku Tensei's core's durability, nor did we know Yasaka no Magatama's full capacities. But with more recent chapters it was revealed that Madara's X failed to fully breach Gaara's and Onoki's X, and that Yasaka no Magatama is more similar of an attack to Sasuke's Susanoo arrows(them being an equal version of Susanoo and all), which X. Some argue that all the Jutsu are portrayed to be equal because they were thrown alongside each other, but that would also be false. Bee's X is far more impressive than Naruto's X X in terms of destructive capacity. So why should Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama be any different if Naruto's and Bee's Jutsus clearly aren't even close?

    I believe Bee's Bijuudama did most of the work there, while Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken also contributed some, and Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama did the least of the work. Though statistically odds were already that Yasaka no Magatama couldn't make-up for the power of Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and the Bijuudama by itself. The layers of mountains and forests compacted together to form X also adds to it's defense, which took X X easily. But that didn't matter with Itachi, because he X it's weakness before it had X X X(hardly enough to cover the core), so it didn't even make a difference. Itachi couldn't survive against Nagato without Naruto and Bee, and had to use their combined efforts to take him down. It seemed fairly obvious that once Itachi was freed, his purpose in that battle would be to seal Nagato because Naruto and Bee lacked a feasible Fuinjutsu to use on him. Having Itachi seal him with the Totsuka no Tsurugi was their only way to win.


    Nagato's Offense

    Shinra Tensei
    As highlighted by Ace, Shinra Tensei is one of Nagato's highest most valuable assets in both offense and defense. A single Shinra Tensei was able to send X flying and X, incapacitating them. Imagine if Nagato chose to use that level of Shinra Tensei on Itachi(which he can do easily). If it can break every bone in big, bad Gamabunta's body, it will easily kill teeny-tiny Itachi without the usage of Susanoo. Nagato can force him to bring forth his greatest Jutsu so casually just in order to survive a average attack from him. While Nagato does not normally use such a large scale on small ninja, nothing stops he from doing it if Itachi is deemed a threat(which he should be, just from his knowledge). If Nagato really wants to kill Itachi then it is literally no trouble at all for him to use a stronger one. He was able to create one on such a scale that it X.

    Nagato needed to deactivate all other Paths and channel his chakra to Deva in order to produce one on that level. But he doesn't need to do this with himself because he already possess all his chakra, though it would still leave him unable to use Shinra Tensei for a few minutes. Itachi could defend against these with the Yata no Kagami, but they would at least send him into the next zip-code(if not outright kill him). The one on the scale that sent three boss summons far away from the village or obliterated Konoha aren't exactly necessary. A much smaller one will still suffice. Also Nagato arguably does not seem to suffer from the same interval that Deva does. This may have been a result of Deva being further away from Nagato, because he had to get closer to Nagato in order to use Chibaku Tensei. Nagato used Banshou Ten'in on both X and a X from the nearby lake, simultaneously. Nagato also used Shinra Tensei X, and then uses it X on the very next page.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  17. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato3rd Speaker for Nagato

    That tactic can be countered with Shinra Tensei. One strong enough to disperse Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu and halt Itachi's advancement in one blow. Itachi won't be able to capitalize on anything if he's recovering himself. If Itachi gets in X, then he's sent away by Shinra Tensei. X X can follow Itachi's movements. Nagato's a lot more attentive and diligent than Bee, and won't be stopped by such a tactic like that. Naruto tried similar tactics against Pain and they soon X once Deva got his powers back.


    Banshou Ten'in
    Banshou Ten'in is one of Nagato's more underrated and typically overlooked Jutsu. But it actually could serve much purpose in this battle. It's usually associated with Nagato using the Jutsu to X X X X, most commonly Human Path's X X. This may not be a good tactic against Itachi himself, as he'd be vulnerable to any one of Itachi's techniques at that range. But used wisely, this Jutsu could prove to be a very valuable offensive asset in this battle.

    I'm pretty sure that's a drawing error because we later see Itachi X Susanoo. But you are correct, Itachi is still a threat and can still attack X X Susanoo. Susanoo of course isn't sentient, and still needs to be piloted by Itachi. They do need to be treated as two separate threats that work in tandem. But Madara's Susanoo appeared to X when it was separated from it's user too much or for too long. He then had to X it where there was no sand present at his feet. Is it so unfeasible to say that Nagato can use Banshou Ten'in to X Itachi from Susanoo? I doubt Itachi can set up Susanoo, leave it miles away, and have it run a muck by itself. There's got to be some limited range to it.

    I agree, Itachi's legendary items; the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami do appear to be distinct from Susanoo, that he equipped to his Susanoo. I doubt he just spawned legendary items out of thin-air one day. They do appear to be separate from Susanoo. Orochimaru was said to have X X his entire life, and Itachi found it. I'm glad we're in agreement about the items being distinct from Susanoo, and that he equipped them onto his Susanoo. Because if he put them on, then they can be taken back off. Nagato should be able to arguably strip Itachi of his legendary items using Banshou Ten'in. From there it's chakra manifestation and can be routinely absorbed or dispersed with X or X, respectively.


    Nagato's Defense

    Genjutsu Counter
    Itachi's Genjutsu is easily some of the best in the manga. It's a big reason why Itachi is so dangerous. He is able to cast powerful Genjutsu just by X or X at you. While one method of counter would be simply avoiding looking at his fingers and eyes, to prevent being caught by Genjutsu. But I won't pretend like that alone would put a complete stop to Itachi's Genjutsu. The trick here is Nagato can break at the very least Itachi's base Genjutsu.

    His statement, "some resistance could be made" from those with the Sharingan was disproven when Naruto(someone who is very unskilled in Genjutsu) X X to his sleep inducing Genjutsu. There's also an arguable case that Orochimaru was going to break his Magen: Kasegui. We see Orochimaru X the Genjutsu kai seal. Itachi intercepts him by cutting off his hand so he could not complete the seal. Now I cannot prove that Orochimaru was undoubtedly going to break it, nor can anyone else prove that he was undoubtedly going to fail at breaking it; but the fact that Itachi himself must have thought he had a chance at breaking it, is proof enough for me that "some resistance could be made." We saw Sasuke cast the very same X on Orochimaru. Yet he was later seen X.

    This suggests that he may have broken it. Deidara was able to train his X to see through Sharingan Genjutsu. Now before people go doubting his his ability because of X X—he made it X that was not Genjutsu. He must've saw the X from X and thought it meant victory. The eyes that appeared behind him are not indicative of Genjutsu(they've never been used besides this instance); they indicate the Sharingan getting the best of Deidara. To replicate X depiction, where the Sharingan originally got the best of Deidara. The tomoe beside Itachi resemble the Sharingan. The author wouldn't show Deidara's Sharingan resistant eye successfully counter Sharingan Genjutsu, just to show it as a failure later. That wouldn't make any sense. Deidara himself, believed this was a sufficient counter to Itachi's Genjutsu and intended to confront him one day, with this as his ace in the hole. And at the very least, he could've provided resistance. So Itachi's claim is entirely false, as even people with normal eyes have been able to resist or outright break Sharingan Genjutsu.

     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  18. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato3rd Speaker for Nagato

    People with normal eyes and even mediocre Genjutsu skill have resisted and even broken Sharingan Genjutsu, so why should I exclude Nagato? Nagato, who has a superior evolutionary Doujutsu than the Sharingan? Doujutsu that sees through Genjutsu. Nagato, who was stated to have the potential capability to X, including X which was stated to be directly related to Genjutsu? Nagato, who was able to place mind barriers, which are stated to be excellent X, in every citizen of Amegakure? I find it hard to believe that he could place them in every citizen of Amegakure, but not be able to place one in himself. With a superior Doujutsu in Rikudou Sennin's Rinnegan, potential Inton mastery, and mind barricades—he should be able to at least counter Itachi's base Genjutsu. Especially when far less suited people have done so before.

    Itachi has not demonstrated any knowledge of Nagato's past, from what I can recall. While Nagato has certainly had more than his fair share of tragedy and traumatizing experiences, Itachi doesn't know of Nagato's past suffering in order to exploit and target his emotions. Furthermore, Nagato has shown to have completely coped with his 'pain.' He was stoic, aloof, and detached in personality before meeting Naruto. Knowing that Itachi commonly utilizes illusions and that being confronted with deceased people from his past is impossible, would better assist him in better recognizing Genjutsu, so he can break it.


    Amaterasu
    Amaterasu is Itachi's second most powerful Jutsu. It is easily one of the most formidable Jutsu in the manga. But Nagato affords an easy counter to Amaterasu. As I mentioned earlier, Amaterasu can be easily X by disersing it with Shinra Tensei or absorbing it with Fuujutsu Kyuuin.

    A strong Shinra Tensei can counter that. It'll disperse Amaterasu and send Susanoo back—resulting in a huge waste of chakra for Itachi. And yes, it X be immediately effective. Sasuke expressed great pain and discomfort during his first usage of Amaterasu. Nagato can use mind barriers to prevent weaker base Genjutsu. By the time Susanoo is brought out, he can avoid eye-contact much more efficiently. He has a good idea where Itachi is with the giant chakra manifestation looming over him. He can employ his shared vision to observe Itachi's feet, back, and other body parts without having to look at his eyes, for an effective Genjutsu prevention tactic.

    Shinra Tensei has shown to be an X to Amaterasu. He can easily Shinra Tensei it away the second it appears. There's no reason why he also couldn't absorb it with Fuujutsu Kyuuin either. In this scenario, with Itachi charging as he uses Amaterasu, a strong Shinra Tensei would be most appropriate in stopping both Amaterasu and Itachi's advancement in one blow. Nagato could've dispersed or absorbed Amaterasu with Shinra Tensei and Fuujutsu Kyuuin on contact. But Kabuto was piloting him and he was more focused on his unresponsive Edo running rampant, free from his control. He doesn't have to worry about Nagato being harmed, for he'd always regenerate. Nagato himself obviously, is not going to fight back.

    He doesn't even want to fight his friends. Amaterasu serves as an effective counter to X X. Namely, his troublesome Cerberus one. But with Shinra Tensei as an counter to Amaterasu, Nagato can use Shinra Tensei to disperse Amaterasu off his summons, so they can batter and attack Itachi even more. The only way to get rid of them for good would be to hit them with the Totsuka(which can arguably be stripped away with Banshou Ten'in). He would also need Susanoo just to survive some of Nagato's more fundamental attacks. Resulting in a very significant chakra expenditure for Itachi, and a very miniscule one for Nagato. Nagato pressures and forces Itachi to resort to his greatest Jutsus just to survive and keep-up with his more rudimentary attacks.


    Susanoo
    Susanoo is Itachi's greatest Mangekyou Jutsu, and the Jutsu Itachi used to X X. It's his only defensive Jutsu as well. It's definitely one of Nagato's biggest threats entering this fight, but he does possess ways to deal with it.

    One large Shinra Tensei should take care of all that. He can block and defend against the Totsuka using Shinra Tensei. It should send Itachi and his Susanoo back, and block any other incoming attacks like kunai. If you're saying he's going to conjure Susanoo to the level where it has the Totsuka and capitalize on the interval, then that's a bit less feasible than you make it sound. Susanoo has to transcend through it's lower stages to get to the higher ones. He's never conjured the entire thing at once, without having to materialize it's lesser stages. The Totsuka no Tsurugi is only available to him in it's final stage. He'd need to have it out already, which would take any subtlety out of the equation. He could have Susanoo out already and force him to block with Shinra Tensei using kunai, and then exploit the interval. But Nagato's liable to save that for separating himself from Susanoo than he would for simple kunai. He could just use a X or some mechanized armor to block kunai. Nagato could just use a strong X Shinra Tensei that sends kunai away and forces Susanoo back in one go. Without the dust as cover and having knowledge on it now, he would know to keep his distance between him and Susanoo.

    He may chose to mount his bird summon to X away, in order separate himself from Itachi and his deadly Susanoo. So he can stay out of the Totsuka's reach. He can comfortably defend against his long-range attacks in the air—Yasaka no Magatama and Amaterasu by dispersing them away from himself or his bird with Shinra Tensei or absorbing oncoming attacks with Fuujutsu Kyuuin. With an aerial view Nagato can keep watch of Itachi over the entire battlefield and follow his tricks with kunai and bunshin feints. He'd be able to break Genjutsu and leave more than enough of an opening to block any incoming attacks. If he chooses to remain on the ground, then his intentions are no different. He'll want to keep as much as distance between him and Susanoo as possible. Using Shinra Tensei to block the Totsuka no Tsurugi and keep his distance away from Susanoo. He'd still want to avoid it at all costs, and keep Itachi and his Susanoo at bay with Shinra Tensei. Nagato also arguably does not appear to retain the same interval that Deva does. Nagato used Banshou Ten'in on X and a X from the nearby lake, at the same time. Nagato also used Shinra Tensei on X and then, on the next page, used it X.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  19. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato3rd Speaker for Nagato

    General Rebuttal
    Just a spot for me to refute miscellaneous stuff I couldn't find an actual category to put under, but still had an answer for.

    Nagato was still crippled there, so I don't really know what you expected him to do. He couldn't get involved much physically. Nagato's mobility is much better with his body restored and vitalized.

    Naruto X that since Nagato is not simply manipulating dead bodies anymore, his Jutsu speed and execution are entirely different(in a better way). His usage of Pain is not identical to how he would fight as himself. X X X X X X when fighting. Some of your key examples are taken out of context. Pain was sending Human out to test Jiraiya's abilities, and attack while he was distracted. Animal was too valuable of an offensive asset. He was their main attacker. Pain wanted to capitalize while Jiraiya was distracted, so using any summons would take any stealth or subtlety out of the equation. He couldn't send Preta out there either. Too valuable of an supplementary asset with Ninjutsu absorption. Human is far more equipped and lethal in CQC. Preta isn't the offensive type. It was actually probably a wise action.

    Pain sees his adversary now with two other strange beings mounted on his shoulders, and his former sensei now frog-like in appearance for some reason. So he would want to get a feel on his new abilities. Naruto was X X X in your other example. He was X by Pain's next two most CQC oriented and expendable Paths at the moment; Human and Preta. Naruto just happened to run into Preta, and thought that his shared vision would cover him. He couldn't send Deva to confront him—too valuable. Animal's a main offensive asset and very poor in close-quarters. Naraka's too valuable as a healer, and is always kept in the back. Itachi had already brought Susanoo out when he sealed Orochimaru. It's not usually an opening maneuver for him to use Susanoo early on his opponent. But Itachi wanted to rid Sasuke of Orochimaru for good.

    And he was forced to bring it out to survive Kirin. Nagato affords easy counters to any opening Amaterasu or Genjutsu. It's a good idea to get a feel on your opponent's abilities at the start of the match by seeing how they deal with a few expendable summons. Kakashi X that operating each body with just your eyes is very difficult and requires a lot of chakra. So it would be much easier to utilize a small number of Pain abilities at once, but that's not how Nagato himself would fight. Nagato's fighting style has been stated to be wholly different and superior to Pain's(so using Pain's actions to determine Nagato's in-character is a erroneous point), and he is definitely not inactive while fighting.

    Itachi arguably has replenishing chakra or regenerating eyesight(the latter more likely). It makes sense given that Sasuke showed X from his very first usage of Amaterasu. The argument does have some merit to it, when something like that shouldn't be ordinarily possible even with fresh eyes. Jouki Boi could consume an extraordinary amount of chakra. The Jutsu is called mugen bakuha Ninjutsu, which means infinite explosion Ninjutsu. This suggests that the Jutsu lasts forever, or at least an extremely long amount of time to earn the monicker "infinite." Itachi's Mangekyou Jutsu don't last long(Amaterasu doesn't seem to cost chakra once it's used, or it would continuously use up chakra for an entire week). That's nothing compared to a Jutsu that's suppose to last forever.

    It may consume a large amount of chakra faster than the rate his chakra is replenishing(if Edo's chakra does regenerate). It does rationalize something that shouldn't ordinarily be possible for Itachi. He should've shown at least some strain, even with perfect eyesight. It makes sense that his eyesight regenerates, when Itachi was X at the time of his death. But he was revived with his eyes healed. Also, the trade-off for Mangekyou Jutsu has always been primarily eyesight rather than chakra. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they each cost a great deal of chakra. In fact, Shoten Itachi, who possess 30% of Itachi's chakra, said he was X to use the Mangekyou Sharingan.

    Suggesting that his Mangekyou Jutsu consume over 30% of Itachi's chakra, or that he wouldn't have enough chakra to spare, leftover to fight the others. But the trade-off has always been X. Itachi, who scores a very low 2.5 out of possible 5 in stamina, was still able to use all three Mangekyou Jutsu in one sitting, along with a variety of other techniques before he died. He was already suffering from grave illness and X, at the time. Sasuke, who has never had extraordinary chakra reserves, was able to maintain a constant Mangekyou usage at the Kage Summit. Sasuke X on the extreme pain from using the lowest level of Susanoo and wondered how Itachi could go through it for so long, but never makes any mention of chakra loss.


    Conclusion
    Itachi is a formidable opponent and a worthy adversary for Nagato. Both of them have each defeated a Sannin. One of them being an Uchiha and the other an Uzumaki—they do represent Naruto and Sasuke in a way. But overall, Nagato is superior. Itachi's arsenal is collectively shut-down by Nagato's abilites. Nagato possess superior hype. He possess the Sharingan's highest achievable evolution. Zetsu's statement only applies to him if he were unskilled with his eyes, which is not the case. Nagato is far more powerful than Itachi. Itachi's tactics can be countered with Nagato's versatile repertoire. He has no means to counter Chibaku Tensei. He won't have Naruto and Bee there as a distraction. Nagato will be entirely focused on Itachi, giving him his undivided attention.

    He won't have Kabuto's negligence to rely on either. Itachi won't be able to replicate his previous performance with neutral battle conditions, not in Itachi's favor, one-on-one. His separate legendary items; the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami, can be stripped away from Itachi's Susanoo using Banshou Ten'in. Without it's tools, Susanoo is a chakra manifestation, and can be regularly absorbed or dispersed. Itachi can arguably be yanked away from Susanoo with Banshou Ten'in, which will disperse if it's separated from it's user for too long. I really don't see how Nagato could be weaker than Itachi when the author gave him a superior Doujutsu, made him the Akatsuki leader, and made it clear that he could not survive against Nagato on his own.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  20. Sans Bad Time

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    Important Announcement - Please Read


    The Greater Debate is now open for voting!!!


    So how will this all work?

    Judges have two weeks in which to hand in their assessments. During that time, the general Battledome public is also free to vote.

    The final scorings on both teams will work thusly:

    Adjudicators will have their total points rewarded averaged, and be awarded to both teams. This will result in an Adjudicator score anywhere between 0 and 100.

    Public votes are then worth a total of 100 points in total. These 100 points will then be divided between the two teams based on their percentage of votes.

    Example:

    Team Nagato receives an average score of 75, while Team Itachi receives 82.

    However Team Nagato receives six of the ten public votes. Thus they gain an additional 60 points, while Team Itachi only gains 40.

    Therefore, the final end scores are:

    Team Itachi: 122.
    Team Nagato: 135.

    Relevant to the Adjudicators

    We may need an additional judge, as I have not heard back from Sanbi at this point in time. If you're at all interesting in judging this event, either contact me through VM's/PM's, or state so in this thread.

    During your assessments, I would appreciate if you used this scoring rubric.

    • Strength of argument - X/40
    • Use of evidence and examples - X/30
    • Relevance - X/15
    • Presentation - X/15

    Just some minor notes. Strength of argument and evidence are fairly obvious to discern. Relevance concerns how well the speaker stays on point. For example, a previous speech in the Great Debate (Itachi vs Jiraiya) dedicating pages to a fairly inconsequential, minor point, is not relevant to the debate as a whole. Presentation revolves around proper use of syntax and grammar, as well as formatting. How "readable" the speech is.

    Relevant to Voters

    Please note that you are voting on the superior argument, not necessarily who you support in the actual match-up. Your vote must also provide an acceptable degree of reasoning. You must demonstrate you read both sides, formed an opinion on how effective their speeches were, and then state your reasons in the vote. While I am not asking for pages of analysis, at least a paragraph or two will most likely be needed, if you want your vote to not be nulled.
     
  21. Atlantic Feather of Infinity Administrator

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    Atlantic's Judgement:


    An excellent opening from Team Itachi by Akatsuki no Tenshi. But that's to be expected. The strength and power of her argument was very high; she was able to cover many points in this match as well as create several good arguments for her team. She used a rather hefty amount of links in her speech as well and gave out a great deal of evidence and examples when necessary (and didn't when it was unnecessary), but they started dropping towards the end so I had to deduct a few marks there.

    The presentation is fine too, I think. It doesn't look bad, but there's nothing special so the top marks for presentation couldn't be accessed.

    Following up from Akatsuki no Tenshi's speech was a short and concise speech from Strategoob . . .

    . . . which was perhaps too short. In contrast to all the other speeches made in this thread Strategoob's post was exceptionally short, and as such I couldn't give him many points for strength of argument as he failed to cover as many points his partners and his opponents did. On the other hand, because his speech was so short it allowed him to not ramble on as some others did since he only covered areas he thought were necessary. Predictably, he also managed to incorporate many links into his posts showcasing his point while at the same time being able to beautifully format his post, granting him rather high marks in all the other categories.

    This is easily one of the strongest speeches made in the entire match-up so far. Komnenos finishes off the speeches on Team Itachi's end and creates an extremely well written argument for his team. I was thoroughly impressed by his speech.

    He responds brilliantly to each point his opponents have made and is able to carefully flow his responses to make them seem naturally as well as successfully weave in an appropriate amount of links for evidence in each point he makes.

    ===

    This was a good speech, with an obvious amount of effort put into it. Within his speech, he is able to take into account Itachi's strengths and abilities, and then counter them by then going on to talk about how Nagato's abilities are able to counter them. I may not agree with all those points, but the way he's approached the argument is very impressive and he's managed to not ramble on about other irrelevant stuff, and as such he's managed to score quite high on strength of argument and relevance. However, lack of links kind of hurts his overall score a bit, and while others might like the blue theme he has going on, it's not to my tastes.

    Also an excellent speech. Unlike Ace, he doesn't speak much of Itachi's strengths, but instead focuses on how Nagato's style completely and utterly shuts Itachi down. True to his title, each point in his speech is extremely detailed, as well as well written. He's managed to weave together an excellent argument together, with plenty of evidence and examples, as well as managing not to ramble on too much (something which can happen a lot, especially in long posts), so his scores are all very well rounded. Again, I wasn't too keen on the blue font, but it didn't look too bad this time.

    Good speech, overall. I enjoyed reading it, and it contains a lot of substance, which is good. What isn't as good, however, is how you've kind of strayed from the topic slightly. While databook references and such are fine as support for your argument, it probably isn't too wise an idea to create an entire section based around it. It strengthens the strength of your argument, so I'm not going to deduct marks for that, but it does slightly lessen your relevance score. The amount of links you put in were fine, though, and your presentation didn't look bad either, but there wasn't anything special about it either so I can't add much.

    ===

     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  22. Grimmjowsensei True Hokage

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    Post reserved for Adjudicator Grimmjowsensei's Judgement.
     
  23. Octavian Gomu Gomu no

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    itachi solos ? or itachi babyshakes ? :LOS
     
  24. Grimmjowsensei True Hokage

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    First off, Itachi always soloes :gar
    :blinditachi

    And I am still waiting for "Post reserved for Kira's Judgement."
    :maybe
     
  25. ImSerious Active Member

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    Post reserved for Adjudicator ImSerious's Judgement.
     
  26. Thunder Active Member

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    I'm guessing you're not serious. :LOS
     
  27. Wizard Sorcerer Supreme

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    General Public Vote: Itachi

    Heres my reasoning for Itachi:

    Both teams did an excellent job with their content. You could clearly see that they spent a fair chunk of their time writing up their arguments. However, I feel that Team Itachi was overall better.

    Team Itachi:
    Their strength I would say is their use of examples. They made great arguments. But it was because of the examples their arguments were great. The looked at the manga panels more deeply than I ever did. They clearly showed that Itachi does have great speed feats and stamina feats. Komnemos did the best job in his debate.

    Team Nagato:
    I felt that the team was more laid back and a bit more vague. Thus I felt that their relevance and examples wasn't as good as Team Itachi. Their strength of argument however was superb and I would say that their presentation was about even maybe with Nagato a bit ahead.

    Team Itachi:

    Strength of argument - 38/40
    Use of evidence and examples - 29/30
    Relevance - 14/15
    Presentation - 13.5/15

    Team Nagato:

    Strength of argument - 38/40
    Use of evidence and examples - 28/30
    Relevance - 13/15
    Presentation - 14/15
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  28. Sans Bad Time

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    Well that vote is definitely worth one hundred points.
     
  29. Baroxio Unlimited Strategy Works

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    The Greater Debate: Itachi vs. Nagato

    X

    Team Itachi

    • Akatsuki no Tenshi
      An interesting and quaint speech that explains all of the things that Itachi can do, being both concise and thoughtful. It sheds light over a few viable tactics (such as blocking LOS or bunshin tricks) without managing to ramble.

      And even in the first opening speech, she still manages to include a decent amount of scans from the manga to back up her point.

    • Strategoes
      Short, concise, and to the point. He deals with only the areas he feels he needs to deal with and attempts to back up everything he says with manga evidence, thus earning him full marks in the evidence and relevance section.

      However, one may argue that he is somewhat too concise; he says he will only argue against the most important issues that the previous speaker made, but it would have been nice to see exactly which parts of said speech he was responding too, as well as WHY he feels those are the most important parts.

      So I think he took a slight hit in his speech's argument due to the above, and his presentation was somewhat basic as well, but still decent enough for all intents and purposes.

      ...Especially considering the circumstances surrounding his speech...;33

    • Komnenos
      Best speech in the Debate, hands down. Komnenos goes above and beyond his duty, responding to each and every point the opponent makes and provides a level of reasoning and pontification to support each and every one of his views. And yet, he manages to do this while remaining as concise as possible.

      But even more astounding was his consistent use of evidence to support his position, to the point where he had over 100 links.

      His formatting, the headers that define what he's arguing against before the opponent's quote really help lead the reader down the path he wants them to follow, and it makes the whole thing much easier to read.

      His only real problem was the overabundance of the IC argument. Yes, the Nagato in the manga is stupid, only uses one ability at a time and doesn't seem to realize that he can grow new legs with Asura Path. But I don't want Itachi to win a battle just because of CIS or PIS.

      But still, nice job. It's good to see that the extra time was worth it. ;33

    Team Nagato


    • Ace
      I'd actually say that this was one of the most fun to read speeches in the debate. Ace has a definite mastery over tone that really shines here. He takes into account Itachi's strengths and skills and tries to refute them. At the same time he presents the air of an unbeatable Nagato who doesn't even need his strongest technique to win.

      Unfortunately, his total lack of links really hurts him, though he does attempt to prove his point otherwise using examples.

      He strays a bit on the relevance ("I sometimes wonder if Chakra Absrobtion was a backup plan for a failed Shinra Tensei"), but I think that most times he does it, it only enhances the overall tone of the essay, and thus increases the strength of his essay.

      Plus, I like the Blue. It goes really well with my Kakashi Beta Skin, actually. :p

    • Scorpion
      Scorpion almost stole the show for me. Best speech in Team Nagato IMO.

      He exemplifies what an In-Depth analysis truly is. He quotes a section from his predecessor's speech and expands on it, using a good amount of links and evidence as well to explain his point. I feel that Ace's blue writings actually gave his speech a decent amount of visual appeal and contrast as well (again, Kakashi Beta skin, you guys should try it.)

      Plus, he had a killer header. :datass

      There's not much "wrong" with his speech, though I do think he could have used a few more links, and his analysis could have used a bit more pontification. It seemed like he was running out of steam near the end, actually.

    • Empathy
      I don't know why, but I'm not overall impressed with this essay in comparison to all the ones that came before it. Empathy's speech is not badly written, but it seems to focus a bit too much on more trivial things like Hype and What ifs from the manga (which he spends a good post and half talking about) rather than the actual meat of skills and techniques clashing.

      He seems almost disdainful of his opponent's abilities (aside from genjutsu, which even he recognizes that Itachi is strong in) but more than that, a major part of his essay is simply attempting to discredit Itachi's feats outright, and make Nagato's seem better in comparison. This is not a bad strategy, but his tone comes off as somewhat...harsh, dare I say, unlike Ace's more relaxed tone.

      Aside from that, his analysis is not really that deep (though arguably, this is partly Strategoes' fault), and he essentially just reiterates his team's talking points without taking the time to really see the scope of the battle. Shinra Tesnei > all doesn't really help if Itachi can attack during it's cooldown, especially if it's force is reflected or negated via Yata no Kagami.

      Basically, a lot of what Empathy says has been refuted by Komnenos, and this means that his speech is a little to similar to his predecessor's speech, Scorpion.

      However, despite what I say about it, it was still a strong speech overall, and one with a decent great amount of links and evidence to back him up, so good job on that as well. The tone of your essay, while harsh, is really just the sort of thing you need to end on. Destroy your opponent utterly if you can, afterall.

    Team Itachi Overall:

    Strength of argument - 33/40
    Use of evidence and examples - 27/30
    Relevance - 14/15
    Presentation - 12.3/15

    Team Nagato Overall:

    Strength of argument - 33.6/40
    Use of evidence and examples - 22/30
    Relevance - 11.6/15
    Presentation - 12.6/15


    So Team Itachi wins my vote, but it was a close race. Good job to all of the debators, judges and voters who participated in this contest!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  30. Empathy Disciple of Thunder

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    May I ask what was wrong with my evidence and examples(enough to warrant a ten point deduction), Baroxio? I had the most links(by my count), which you viewed as a plus for Komnenos for having over a hundred links. I do feel I should have suffered more on relevancy. I have found that a few of my points were wrong. I'm sorry you got the tone of speech off as "harsh," Baroxio. That wasn't my intention(the crush your opponent vibe). I wasn't trying to discredit Itachi's feats, more as I was trying to give further analysis into them(though I can understand how that impression could be misinterpreted). Itachi's actually one of my favorite characters. I know I focused more on dissecting Itachi's performance against Nagato, than I did how the actual battle would go. It's just that I felt my predecessors had covered the actual battle enough, and I wouldn't really be bringing much 'new' to the table. And that their canon battle deserved some more looking into, s'all. I apologize that you think my speech was unimpressive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  31. Baroxio Unlimited Strategy Works

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    Actually, you're right.

    I've re-reviewed your speech, and you're speech is full of evidence and important information.

    I suppose I was just coming off the high that was Komnenos's speech, and unfairly voted you down because of it. I admit that your evidence score shou.d be higher, I'll give you a 26 instead of 20.

    But I do still think that you spent way too much time analyzing Hype and how the battle in the manga went, though I can understand why you did it, so I can't penalize you in relevance too much for that. I also think you were reiterating a few talking points from your predecessors that I feel Komnenos already addressed, like the idea that Shinra Tensei can counter...pretty much anything, with no reference to timeframe or possible tactics that take advantage of it's cooldown (if anything I think you were trying to imply that the cooldown didn't exist/was shorter for Nagato then for Deva).

    But even then your speech was very strong (everyone's was). Way more impressive than I originally gave it credit for now that I'm looking at it again. Good job.
     
  32. Sadgoob Editing Specialist

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    Ah, so there is no penalty for missing deadlines? I made the wrong decision in rushing to fill in, in that case.​
     
  33. αce Puahah.

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    Tell me about it.
    I would've added links.
     
  34. Mister Banned

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    Vote: Nagato.

    Again, I like the actual style of the Nagato side more than the Itachi side.
    With the Nagato side I could actually relate with things I've read the manga and I didn't have to stretch too far from the actual abilities of Nagato to see their point.

    Whereas with the Itachi side, like the last time it felt dogmatic and personally I had to feel like I had to take a leap of faith to believe some of the arguments.
    Though there were more citations for this side, I don't actually feel like some of the posts for this side actually used the evidence right. For example, I'd read the point and have it in my head. Then after reading the supporting evidence, I wouldn't get the same feeling - the initial point - again.
    For example: how am I going to believe Itachi easily maneuvered against the likes of Orochimaru and Nagato when the former was too busy rambling when he got hit, while the latter was bound by Edo Tensei only react to enemy attacks and not fellow Edo Tensei, 'autopilot' as the Trollkage put it.

    In particular I felt this more when reading the 'tactics' section. I was led to believe that it was Itachi's pure planning and skill - the vibe I got - yet reading the chapter it was pure situation and the luxury of having two Jinchuriki also fight Nagato - being controlled by Kabuto (who generally takes hits as his style despite the knowledge or sensing skill he has; refer to him vs the Iwa peeps).
    Had that little fact at least been acknowledges or partially acknowledged, it'd fly with me.

    Another thing is adding the unsupported fact of Itachi demonstrating 'exceptional stamina'. There was nothing suggesting his stamina changed, that could've at least been supported.
    I could show Kakashi's battle against the swordsmen, then pointed to his battle with the Jinchuriki then assert he demonstrated exceptional stamina; like the Itachi bit about stamina, there is no evidence Kakashi's stamina improved.
    I'd have accepted "Itachi can make exceptional use of his low stamina", it is consistent with actual concrete facts we have and doesn't make me think "whoa, what's this guy saying?"
    More so with the 'distinct items'... Zetsu didn't separate them from Susanoo, he merely said Susanoo had them; complimenting the databook implying that the items are universal and, like Zetsu, also explain the items. The databook's input was not referenced at all and Zetsu's input totally changed.

    That sort of 'fact moulding' put the Itachi side down in my books.

    Whereas the Nagato side actually acknowledged some mitigating factors, for example Kabuto forgetting about Itachi, or the summons being preoccupied.


    I didn't totally find myself dissatisfied with the Itachi side: one of the rebuttals from Komnenos also got me a little shaky, particularly the Shinra Tensei part.
    Admittedly, we did have a debate about Shinra Tensei's mechanisms (he mentioned the mass of the target affects ST while I said the force is determined by the amount of chakra put into the jutsu). Now what I liked about this was he didn't assert that his idea was a face, he admitted that some surmise.
    The impression I got is he's stated a stance but willing to accept that its not a concrete fact.

    Unfortunately for the Itachi side, this impression I got was more consistent with the Nagato side hence my vote goes to them.


    P.S. if required, I'll go into more depth with my reasoning. (If you require this feel free to PM me as that's probably the best way to reach me. :p)
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2012
  35. The Pirate on Wheels The Missing Link

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    Post reserved way too far down for Adjudicator P.o.W.'s vote assuming Sanbi doesn't come back.
     
  36. PrazzyP HxH is life

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    my vote is for nagato
     
  37. Baroxio Unlimited Strategy Works

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    So...are the other judges actually going to send in their judgements or what? :maybe
     
  38. Infidelity New Member

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    vote:Itachi

    Nagato is said to have been stronger in that form, and that Itachi could find the weakness of the Chibaku Tensei Technique, has my vote. May not be a big vote, but it's a vote.

    Edit:He could be stronger, it states in the Manga the strength and speed of the technique's are on a higher level than when he used the Six Path's.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2012
  39. Scorpion GET OVER HERE!

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    Flawless logic.

    Anyway, are the judges going to submit their stuff or what?
     
  40. Atlantic Feather of Infinity Administrator

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    I'm in the process of finishing off the rest of my judgement, but as it's Chinese New Year today, I may not be able to complete it until tomorrow. Apologies.
     
  41. Thunder Active Member

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    Sorry guys, but you're going to have to expand on these votes if you want them to count. Feel free to come back and edit your posts with some reasoning.

    Just make sure you do it before the debate concludes. : p

    This vote also lacks sufficient reasoning. Moreover, you failed to take into account the arguments that were presented.

    For future reference: voters, you'll want to avoid casting a vote based on who you think is stronger in a fight; the main focus should be on the arguments themselves.

    All of the quoted votes above have been nulled for now.

    _______________

    For those of you that are concerned about the adjudicators judgments, we have started posting our results, albeit slower then expected. I've been experiencing some trouble with my computer on my end, but things seem to be okay now, so I'll be working on finishing up my judgement ASAP.

    Sorry for taking so long.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  42. Thunder Active Member

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    Thunder's Judgement

    Spoiler:
    Hello everyone! I'd like to welcome you to the first official 'Greater Debate', the latest installment of the 'Great Debate' series! But before I begin my judgement, please bear with me as I ramble on for a bit.

    While the Great Debate succeeds — and beautifully, I might add — in spicing up the Battledome we all love, to me there is another more important (or equally important) outcome in continuing these special debates. Everyone who has participated in this prestigious event — voters, volunteers, or organizers — have contributed to a great cause: raising the posting standards of the Battledome. The Great Debate is wonderful because it exposes the community to a higher grade of debate than what most are used to seeing. Specifically, I feel it's the newcomers that shall benefit from this type of thing the most, and all of them have the potential to be future Great Debaters provided they receive a small push in the right direction. I hope that these Great Debates will continue in the future, as this can be the push they need to put them on the path of Battledome excellence.
    ______________________

    Akatsuki no Tenshi
    Team Itachi

    Strength of argument:
    I'll go ahead and say it now: I thoroughly enjoyed reading this write-up. As the first speaker for your team, the daunting task of laying down a strong foundation for all of your teams' future arguments fell on your shoulders, and I believe you successfully rose to the challenge — good job. In particular, I was pleased to see that you briefly touched upon Itachi's hype — a somewhat controversial way to determine a character's overall worth. Now, normally mentioning a character's hype in a debate is looked down upon in the Battledome, but you incorporated it into your speech correctly — you did well not to fall into the trap of 'beefing-up' Itachi with this hype. Instead, you simply stated the author's own views and left it at that, as oppose to asserting something along the lines of 'Itachi was said to be on another level than the other Edo Tensei, and this includes Nagato, so Itachi should win!’
    You made an excellent point by mentioning an important drawback of the 'looking down tactic' which is a popular counter to Tsukuyomi that we see in debates: if Itachi's opponent looks down in order to avoid ocular genjutsu, such a strategy will set them up to get hit by the all-consuming flames of Amaterasu since they couldn't see it coming, essentially creating a 'Catch-22' scenario. I would have taken it a step further still though, and brought up the fact that looking down while fighting is not an easily acquired skill, especially in the heat of battle. Of course, Nagato can fight efficiently without having to meet his opponent's gaze thanks to the Rinnegan (shared vision with summons instead of dead bodies), but Itachi can put a stop to that with weapon usage as he did in canon, which you made sure to highlight — excellent.
    Intelligence is an important factor that can easily be overlooked in these match-ups, so I'm happy that you brought it up. While I browse through the numerous threads in the Battledome, too many times do I come across bouts with a great potential for debate, only for them to be reduced to a simplistic, 'who has the most destructive jutsu' contest. That said, it would have been nice if you delved a bit deeper into Itachi's intellectual prowess.
    Use of evidence and examples:
    This is another area you performed well in. One of the most important facets in any debate is the usage of citations; in fact it's so important that I would make sure my speech contains at least one every paragraph just to be on the safe side. So, you can imagine how pleased I was when I quickly skimmed through your speech for the first time and came across an abundance of links, as well as proper manga evidence to support your claims. I noticed that you listed quite a few jutsu throughout your speech; it would have been great if you added a few data book entries for them though, instead of just explaining the mechanics behind them yourself. Remember, not everyone who will be viewing this event is as well-versed in Naruto as the speakers and adjudicators are. Other than that minor gripe, I have zero complaints here.
    Relevance:
    As I said above, I like the way you eased readers into the debate with your brief mention of Itachi's hype. Admittedly though, for a second I was a bit worried after first seeing the 'hype' category, but you wisely avoided staying on the subject for too long. You spent just the right amount of time discussing Itachi's abilities and strengths, as well as Nagato. When writing a decent sized exposition, it can be hard to avoid getting too long winded at times, so kudos for staying as concise as possible.
    Presentation:
    Two words: loved it. The Itachi banner was a really nice touch; it's nice to see that you strayed from the boring, traditional formatting we're so used to seeing in this section. Great Debaters should always endeavor to go above and beyond the standard post, and its simple additions like this that can go a long way in achieving that, in my eyes. Overall your speech was very easy to follow; modest headings transition readers into next topic of discussion, and your spacing was on point. Your tone is somewhat matter-of-fact — it's clear that you mean business! However, you don't come off as aggressive or arrogant in the least.

    For the most part your language was acceptable; I found a couple of English related spelling and grammatical mistakes here and there, but they were — for the most part — few and far between. On the Japanese front: I couldn't help but notice that you misspelled several Japanese jutsu names in your 'stamina' section. For example, 'Gokakyu' would become 'Gōkakyu' or 'Goukakyu' — whichever you prefer. Personally, I like seeing the former version, as incorporating the macron gives off a more . . . professional aura to me. Strangely enough though, earlier in your speech you spelled virtually all of the Japanese jutsu names correctly, which leads me to believe that you are indeed well aware of this rule, but simply forgot.
    Scoring:
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  43. Thunder Active Member

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    Thunder's Judgement
    Spoiler:
    Strategoob Team Itachi

    Strength of argument:
    I'm going to be honest: my initial reaction after quickly viewing Strategoob's argument was one of confusion; surely this wasn't the second effort put forth by Team Itachi, I thought — it's far too short! However, after sitting down and carefully reading through everything Strategoob wrote, I can safely say that my confusion was replaced with awe. On the surface, this speech may seem like it's lacking compared to the other five, but it's still packed full of information despite being short — a shining example that Great Debate speeches don't necessarily have to be gargantuan in length to be effective. It's always nice to see something different.
    I liked your opening, which centered around Zetsu's statement regarding dōjutsu. While it is true that the Rinnegan is superior to the Mangekyō Sharingan, skill is also an important factor to consider. Just having the better tool doesn't automatically grant you victory in these fights — I think that's looking at it too simplistically, and Strategoob does well to point this out from the get go. I do appreciate how you engaged the readers with a rhetorical question at the end, but I think it would have been better to just provide evidence that Itachi has greater skill with his eyes than Nagato. If your predecessor already made a note of this, simply reiterating what was said previously would suffice.
    It's unwise to try and build a strong case for Itachi without mentioning his aptitude for Genjutsu, so I was expecting to see it somewhere in your post. You talked briefly about Genjutsu (as expected), but I was pleased to see that you went about it a bit differently. Instead of just stating that Itachi can use Genjutsu to set up an attack, you also brought up how Itachi can employ Genjutsu to attack Nagato's emotional state, which is often overlooked.
    The last thing I'll point out is what you said about Nagato's "inactive" fighting style — this was another great point that rarely gets mentioned. While Nagato has shown the ability to utilize multiple paths at once, he does typically employ them in a defensive fashion. The only thing I don't agree with here is how you used a few scans of Pein Rikudō to help cement your case for Nagato. Sure, the paths are more or less an extension of Nagato's body, but Nagato may have fought differently because he split up his Rinnegan powers amongst the paths. You can probably get away with it in this case, though, as it's a special one.
    Use of evidence and examples:
    Again, Strategoob does things a bit differently here, but different isn't always a bad thing — this is one of those cases. A lot of the time in Battledome I see people neglecting to take the author's own views into account, or they just downplay them, so it's good to see that this was briefly touched upon.
    For the length of this speech, there is still a good number of links to be found, which is never a bad thing; in fact, Strategoob manged to incorporate more links than even the other longer speeches in some cases, which impressed me. If you're going to take the concise approach to debating, you need to be able to cram as much information into your speech without going overboard, and Strategoob does this beautifully here.
    Relevance:
    I'm afraid I don't have much to say here. Because this speech was so concise and to the point, there isn't much evidence of Strategoob straying from the overall debate. Great job.
    Presentation:
    You earned top marks from me in this category as well; I loved how you formatted everything. Much like Akatsuki no Tenshi, your style is simple, yet elegant at the same time. There is one thing that you need to be aware of in the future, though: your usage of colored text. While this may seem like nit picking, generally colored text should be avoided in a more professional setting such as this one. However, I won't be penalizing you this time around, because: 1) you didn't pick a horrendous looking color like yellow, and 2) you were consistent with one color throughout. Speaking of links, adding italics to them was a nice touch.
    Your language was very high-grade throughout. It's easy to fall into the trap of looking up 'big' words in the thesaurus, and just substituting them for the more common ones, but if you do this it's easy to tell your writing will come off as forced rather than intelligent. Strategoob maintains a good balance of 'big' words with a comfortable tone, making it a good read. I found no spelling errors (other than one typo), and I noticed that you used the macron, so that was a plus.
    Scoring:
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  44. Thunder Active Member

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    Thunder's Judgement

    Spoiler:
    Komnenos Team Itachi

    Strength of argument:
    Once again, Team Itachi proves that they're in it to win it; I mean it when I say this speech is easily one of the best I've had the pleasure of reading. Komnenos carefully built upon his teammates' strengths, perfectly blending together the thoroughness of Akatsuki no Tensei and the conciseness of Strategoob, resulting this suburb exposition. But words of praise aside, I just want to point out what Komnenos says in his introduction before we move on, as it's important:
    "As I am simply rebutting Scorpion's points, my speech has not been organised as a typical essay. Instead, I have gathered relevant points made by the previous speech, and will respond to them on a case by case basis. In this manner, I will comprehensively point out the flaws in Team Nagato's stance."
    Anyone who interested in participating in these Great Debates please make a note of this, because it's exactly what you should be doing. Know that it isn't always necessary to rebuttal everything put forth by your opponent in a debate, so don't be afraid to ignore certain things. In fact, take it a step further and tactfully call out your opponent when they make irrelevant points; something along the lines of 'I won't be responding to these points for these reasons' will suffice.

    Komnenos did an excellent job picking apart Scorpion's speech overall. One of the most important aspects of this fight concerns Nagato's mobility, and Komnenos did well to raise this question: if Nagato is able to transform his legs into rocket boots, why didn't he do so in the manga? We can only speculate, but personally I believe it just wasn't possible for whatever reason.

    How Itachi deals with Chibaku Tensei is undoubtedly a major concern for Itachi, but Komnenos comes up with an interesting answer to it: simply have Itachi attack the black sphere directly with one of his long ranged attacks before the sphere is surrounded by earth. Komnenos seems to be implying that the only reason why Itachi needed the assistance of Naruto and Kirābī the first time around is because the sphere grow too large to be dealt with alone, which is certainly possible. Ideally, an Itachi with knowledge on Chibaku Tensei would immediately fire an attack at the black sphere when it first appears.

    One thing I didn't agree with that Komnenos said in this section (well not completely) is how Nagato would be susceptible to attack while he is 'charging' Chibaku Tensei. As we saw in the manga, the attractive force of the black sphere was so great that Naruto, Itachi and Kirābī didn't need to properly aim their attacks at it. It stands to reason that most attacks directed at Nagato in this situation would be redirected to the black sphere instead. Genjutsu is really the only reliable attack Itachi could employ there, and it's effect on Nagato is debatable; furthermore, it can be avoided. ​
    Use of evidence and examples:
    Komnenos has a staggering 101 links scattered throughout his speech for good measure definitely a great note for Team Itachi to end on for this category. Since you were the last one up at bat for Team Itachi, it was important that you tied up any loose ends, and this is the best way to do it.
    Relevance:
    I find myself at a loss for words here, but in a good way I literally have nothing negative to comment on here. As explained in his introduction, Komnenos stayed the course throughout his entire speech, responding only to the relevant aspects of Scorpion's speech rather than going off on a tangent over some trivial matter. Because of this fact, it's no surprise that Komnenos remains concise like his predecessor. Excellent job.
    Presentation:
    Not much to complain about here either. Like I said to Akatsuki no Tensei, the Itachi banner found at the beginning of your speech was a nice touch. I really like seeing small additions like this. Your formatting was exceptional; the different colored headings and italics succeed in adding a little more flair to your speech. You did something that no one else did with your links that I loved: you numbered them, allowing anyone reading to quickly establish how many links were in your speech. Kudos for being a little original here.

    While your formatting was perfect there were a few small spelling mistakes that I found here and there, so that brought down your score a bit. Also, I was confused by one of your headings, which is labeled as "Jikukan Ninjutsu", or space-time ninjutsu. Since you were talking about Nagato here, which one of his techniques involve space-time jutsu? I couldn't figure out if you simply mislabeled this category, or were confused about what Jikukan Ninjutsu is.
    Scoring:

     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  45. Thunder Active Member

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    Thunder's Judgement

    Spoiler:
    Ace Team Nagato

    Strength of argument:
    No introduction. No; Ace gets right down to the nitty-gritty here and immediately discusses Chō Shinra Tensei and how it will be the death of Itachi should Nagato employ it, and even if Itachi manages to survive an early Susanō would be forced — I commend you for being direct and not beating around the bush about this. Team Nagato makes it clear that they don't believe this awesome technique is even needed here, and many would agree.

    In the next section (Chibaku Tensei), Ace continues on by mentioning Nagato's trump cards, and there are three important facts that Ace brings up: 1) Itachi's Yata no Kagami does not provide an omnidirectional defense, 2) Madara's
    Susanō was obliterated by his own meteor, which is similar to Chibaku Tensei, and 3) we are unable to discern just how powerful Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama is. All strong points that will leave people thinking.

    Your defensive section was good, especially the part about Shinra Tensei. It's easy to forget that this jutsu can be used to attack and defend with, so I'm glad you didn't just focus on it's destructive capabilities. Though I'm surprised you only said that Shinra Tensei can repel tangible objects; what about chakra constructs? Shinra Tensei has the ability to disperse Ninjutsu, and I would have liked to see your thoughts on it vs. Susanō specifically, which is a popular match-up in the battledome. Hopefully one of your teammates touches on this later.

    Most people reading this debate will wonder how Nagato deals with Itachi's Genjutsu, so Ace makes sure to indulge them, stating that Nagato can look down and fight better than most thanks to the shared vision afforded by the Rinnegan; in essence Nagato could see through any of his summons eyes and fight based on what they are viewing. Of course, this is assuming Nagato's summons won't be taken out early by Itachi. I saw that you mentioned how Nagato placed Genjutsu safeguards in his subordinates minds, but there is no proof that it was Nagato himself that did this. It's interesting to note that these safeguards took the form of paper, so it's entirely possible that it was Konan's doing. However, I do agree that the Rinnegan ought to afford Nagato some resistance towards Genjutsu, based on it's status as the ultimate dōjutsu.

    Overall this argument as a whole is a fine one, but some more detail would have been good.
    Use of evidence and example:
    Ace, what happened here? You didn't incorporate any links at all in your entire speech, which shocked me. Surely one of your teammates would have informed you of this, so it makes me wonder how much communication went on between you guys. Remember, teamwork is important here. If you have any questions, or just need someone to proofread your work don't hesitate to get together with your team and discuss it. You guys should be working closely on this anyway.
    Relevance:
    You get full marks here. I didn't feel that you strayed from the topic at hand, and you got right to the point in all of your sections. Great work.
    Presentation:
    The first thing that caught my eye was the blue text. While the choice of color isn't that bad (not hard on the eyes), colored text in general should be avoided in a professional setting such as this one. If you just color coded your links like Strategoob did I would have been a lot more lenient. But since your entire speech was blue, I can't really ignore it despite how much I like the color. Your formatting was okay; Team Nagato seems to have taken a more conservative approach to this, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    As far as language goes, there were a few problems. You consistently misspelled Shinra Tensei (there isn't an 'i' at the end) which was the most glaring example of this, in my opinion. Basically, I got the impression that you rushed to get this thing in and forgot to proofread, because I've seen how capable a poster you are and these are small things that could have been avoided if you had another pair of eyes review your speech before sending it to me.
    Scoring:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  46. Thunder Active Member

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    Thunder's Judgement
    Spoiler:
    Scorpion ? Team Nagato

    Strength of argument:
    Much like his predecessor, Scorpion decided to start off his speech in a big way: by jumping right into discussing Nagato's potent offense (Tendō, Shuradō, Chikushōdo, and Ningendō). Lets face it; most people reading this debate are probably more interested in the flashy jutsu available to each fighter, so this is actually a pretty good way to capture the readers attention from the onset. You did great job expressing how dangerous these paths are to Itachi, especially when Nagato decides to use them in combination attack (Banshō Ten?in + Soul Rip is a good example). But I'd be lying if I said that this section dealt solely with Nagato's offense; you made sure to include things like Shuradō's ability to not only dish out the pain but take it too, and how Nagato can utilize Chikushōdo's summons as eyes. I loved your idea of keeping the dogs separated, making them much harder to kill with Amaterasu.

    In a previous judgement, I expressed some concerns over how Nagato would prevent Itachi from once again rendering his summons' blind with weapons, but here Scorpion managed to clear up some of my doubts on the matter. For one, Scorpion reminded me that Nagato was under the control of Kabuto (who has consistently made crucial errors in judgement with his Edo Tensei). Furthermore, in this scenario Nagato possesses knowledge on Itachi, and will not have to deal with other fighters getting in his way ? all excellent points.

    I'm glad that you touched on Shinra Tensei vs. Susanō, as it's very important. As suspected, you didn't fail to mention Shinra Tensei's ability to dispel Ninjutsu. Itachi's Yata no Kagami could render this ability useless, but luckily you have a backup plan: it's very possible that the shock waves generated by this jutsu could upset Susanō's footing, at the very least. You're on a roll here.

    Unsurprisingly, your section on Banshō Ten?in didn't disappoint either. While I did find myself nodding my head in agreement as I read, there was on thing you said that I wasn't too sure of: that those caught by the attractive force of Banshō Ten?in are unable to form hand-seals. We've seen that Kakashi still maintained full movement over his arms, as he was able to reach into his pocket and throw his Manriki-gusari while being pulled in. if he can do all that, he should be able to form seals as well. I think what we're seeing in those scans you posted is Kakashi and Naruto simply having better options than trying to make seals for jutsu that may not work. ​
    Use of evidence and examples:
    I can happily say that Team Nagato's second speech did a much better job this time around with their usage of evidence and examples. This only reinforces my believe that your Team's first speech lacked links due to lack of communication, which is unfortunate. The citations did start to slow down towards the end of your speech, though. Aside from that, admittedly there were a few instances where I wished you expanded a bit more on some of your explanations, but overall I would definitely say that you performed well in this category.
    Relevance:
    This is another area you shined in. So far Team Nagato has shown that they can stay relevant, which is impressive considering the amount of information you guys are bringing to the table. I know how hard it can be to stay focused, so I commend you for doing just that.
    Presentation:
    I have no particular complaints here regarding your formatting; your speech was very easy to follow. I also noticed that like Team Itachi, you decided to go the extra mile and add a banner at the beginning of your speech ? I'm happy. I also have to give you credit for doing something a bit different: 'quoting' Ace's work at the top of each section; normally you'd only see these quotes in rebuttals to your opponent, so it was interesting to see them used in this fashion. It also shows me that you built off of your teammate's thoughts as well as your own. Lastly, you squeezed in an introduction which is never a bad thing.

    I didn't find too many spelling errors, so your language score didn't suffer much. Your vocabulary was very high-grade without sounding too verbose, which is a plus. I also liked how you sounded conversational, and not like a robot. Some may see this as unprofessional, but not me so long as you don't go too overboard. There were a few times where you capitalized letters that didn't need it, which brought down your score some.
    Scoring:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  47. Thunder Active Member

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    Thunder's Judgement

    Spoiler:
    Empathy Team Nagato

    Strength of argument:
    I see you took a similar route as Akatsuki no Tensei and began your exposition by talking about hype for a bit, so I'll say the same thing to you that I did to your opponent: it's never a bad idea to spend some time discussing this topic, and kicking things off by mentioning how the Rinnegan is portrayed by the author as an evolved form of the Sharingan is a great way to do it. You attempted to counter Strategoob's skill overcoming power argument by saying that Nagato is skilled with his eyes as well, but I wish you explained how Nagato is so skilled with his eyes instead of just asserting that he is. While I do agree with what you said about power sometimes being to much for skill, some examples were needed to cement your case. How your hype section differs from Akasuki no Tensei's though, is the amount of time you spent on it; three paragraphs is a bit too much, in my opinion. However, I won't deny that this was a refreshing and informative read, so I'm quite impressed all the same, despite the length.

    Your "Itachi couldn't have won alone" section is very important, because Team Itachi really needed to convince the readers that Naruto and Kirābī's presence wasn't necessary for Itachi to achieve victory against Nagato; lets see if you shook things up for them a bit. According to Empathy, if Itachi could truly handle Nagato on his own, then why not have him send Naruto and Kirābī ahead, and deal with Nagato by himself? This is an interesting question that lets us in on Kishimoto's thought processes very nice. Additionally, you came to the conclusion that Itachi's presence was needed in order to seal Nagato, because you claim that Naruto and Kirābī lacked an appropriate sealing jutsu (you say Okutopasu Horudo would have been absorbed). However, you may have unknowingly contradicted your teams argument that Nagato could absorb the Totsuka; why didn't he? We know that the sword doesn't seem to seal its targets automatically. The only logical conclusion is that Nagato didn't attempt this because he couldn't, or didn't think of it. Of course, you could say Nagato didn't use his absorption due to plot reasons, but many readers would see that as a "cop out", so it wouldn't make for a strong argument.

    I won't get too much into critiquing your points about Shinra Tensei/Banshō Ten'in and such, as your teammates already touched upon them in detail; instead lets focus on what you had to say about Genjutsu. Again, you attempted to counter Strategoob's point (only those with a Sharingan can defeat Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu) with false information; despite the fact that I don't agree with what Strategoob said, Itachi's finger genjutsu is not considered Sharingan Genjutsu, so your example about Naruto breaking the first layer of it is not valid in this case. What I liked more was your example of Orochimaru, and how Itachi prevented him from making hand-seals. I believe it's very possible that Orochimaru was attempting to Kai his way out of Itachi's Genjutsu, and this feat does disprove what Strategoob said, provided you believe that Orochimaru could break out: I do. This shouldn't come as a surprise though, considering Orochimaru has a 5 in Genjutsu.
    Use of evidence and examples:
    You really went above and beyond here in many cases; in fact I'd go as far as to say you outperformed everyone else in this category, so excellent job! It should be noted that you were the first (and only) debater to provide translations, and from accurate sources to boot this is what I like to see. I saw that you gave some real-world examples involving firearms which was a nice addition.
    Relevance:
    You had the tendency to go off on tangents several times throughout your speech, so your relevance score was negatively effected. A few times you gave examples of feats that had nothing (or little) to do with Nagato himself, so be careful of that in the future.
    Presentation:
    Your speech was quite lengthy, and the fact that the person you were responding to had the least amount of characters used in the entire debate only made it that more apparent to me. While the length isn't overwhelming per se, in the future it would be a good idea to skim some of this off, especially if the argument you're rebutting isn't that long. You aimed to keep the formatting simple, which was a wise choice considering the length.

    On the language front I didn't find too much that worried me. My only comment here is that you could have expanded your vocabulary a bit, and avoided using phrases like "teeny-tiny"; I admit this did make me laugh, but it sounds like rather childish wording to use in a great debate. Like the rest of your teammates, your speech has a nice, relaxing conversational tone to it, but just don't over do it.
    Scoring:

    ___________________

    Averaged Team Scores

    Team Itachi:

    Strength of argument: 37/40
    Use of examples and evidence: 28/30
    Relevance: 15/15
    Presentation: 14/15

    Team Nagato:
    Strength of argument: 37/40
    Use of evidence and examples: 23/30
    Relevance: 13/15
    Presentation: 11/15​
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  48. Wizard Sorcerer Supreme

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    Thanks for the rep Thunder.
    Edited my vote. Would i need more?
     
  49. Thunder Active Member

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    No problem, thank you for participating. : )

    While you did add more here (which I appreciate), you're still only looking at this match in terms of Nagato vs. Itachi, instead of Team Itachi vs. Team Nagato, so I can't count your vote just yet.

    Basically,X. This is meant to be more of a contest of actual debate skill rather than what you usually see in regular Battledome match-ups. It may seem like this is nit-picky, but it's very important.

    If you need an example of how to vote in this way, check out X and X votes both were deemed to be satisfactory.

    We aren't expecting you to write up an essay like the adjudicators are or anything, but at least a paragraph is a good length to be looking at.

    Let me know if you have questions, and feel free to edit away!
     
  50. Wizard Sorcerer Supreme

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    :facepalm I knew I did something wrong. Didn't know we are actually voting on the arguments. Well I'll edit my post. However, I see it favoring itachi more.
     
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