Discussion in 'Meta-Battledome' started by Nighty the Mighty, Dec 6, 2016.
That was as awful as your Divell's advocate joke.
Oh please, that one was still 10x the cheese in magnitude
This was just dirty
You know I like Superman IV: The Quest for Peace?
Are you insulting the son of a shepherd?
Reminds me of Phenomenol's old "Willpower >>>> Reality Warping!!!1" arguments
Isn't there some kind of noncorporeal pseudo-omnipotent omnipresent being in Nasuverse? How would the Shrike beat that?
Generally the label "omnipotent" is worthless for debate purposes as it's a logically invalid NLF. A character simply being declared "omnipotent" means nothing by itself.
Reminds me of when they said that 18th century armies could solo the First Age in Tolkein's Legendarium.
No, but you see, slugthrowers in Star Wars are no better than 17th century Flintlock muskets from RL!
Or, alternatively, they are better than blasters but everyone in SW is too stupid to realize it and use them instead.
I've actually seen both of these arguments advanced
Well the series does have 10+ dimensions and a multiverse, but the characters don't have that kind of power.
There actually are several good fights, especially towards the end. I don't recall anything about throwing around galaxies, though. The goddesses are planet level+ with some hax for the most part. The impression I got from reading the manga was that the majority of the actual power in the series lied with the Yggdrasil system (basically a divine supercomputer that the gods and goddesses use to oversee and control reality). It has much better feats than any of the actual characters.
But that is a NLF fallacy, right? It wouldn't work against someone with reality warping defenses way above the scale he's shown.
I don't know the context here, but to be fair Asgard is another dimension so you can't really measure the distance between it and someplace in the 616 universe.
Of course that's the reason I never said trying to change someone into a God or it can work on Gods or anything as ridiculous as that. The issue is that we've seen only the Almighty break Ichimonji and Shirafude Ichimonji and The Almighty itself is honestly a broken ass power that few can actually beat. So the issue is mainly how can we catergorize that past power, what type of hax will the opponent need to have to beat it past supremely overpowered ones like GER and Universal+ Scale Reality Warping for example?
>To Aru character being declared as being leagues above Lucifer Morningstar.
>Othinus is apparently the strongest god in fiction while not being a top tier god in her own setting.
>To Aru organization being classified as the "strongest sci fi civilization".
Overall, lolworthy cancer. Considering this guy uses a thread made by the biggest To Aru wanker I've ever seen, it's not much of a surprise. That guy used to say Othinus could solo the Marvel universe a billion times over
Cancer, cancer and more cancer. These guys know nothing but dimensional fucking tiering to debate. Plus, I think only one person there may know what he's talking about, and even then I doubt he has knowledge of all sides in the thread. That's my main complaint with it, lots of utter retards jumping at number of dimensions and following wikis (pretty sure that either VS Battles or ACF) without a single figment of first hand knowledge involved. And then we complain about how shit gets wanked.
If everyone had first hand fucking knowledge each time they enter a debate instead of using sites or hearsay to get their info from, debating would be so much better. Less retarded shit to read.
Lucifer without his Morningstar powers would be too much for To Aru. Give him the Morningstar powers and To Aru is fucked 8 ways til Sunday.
Y'know in my back and forth with Emperor and having talked with several users here over Skype, I still haven't gotten an answer over x amount universes with y dimensions. Like the dumb Belldandy profile Savan linked where she's "High Complex (I don't get this word usage) Multiversal." How do you reach that conclusion to begin with? It's just...what.
Apparently they use the theorized number of dimensions our "theoretical multiverse" in real life may have to set their standards. Hyperversal and Outerversal (lol at those, heard a lot of people complaining about Marvel using Megaverse and Omniverse and they are basically doing the same thing. And not even canonical terms, purely fan made) are outside the dimensional bounds of M Theory. That's their measurement system. Still pains me how characters with universal feats at most (Yeshua from Xenosaga for example) get ranked higher than multiversal cause dimensions.
That still doesn't make much sense to me. It's a huge leap of logic to go from "Belldandy is 10th dimensional" or whatever the scan said to "Belldandy can wipe out the entire multiverse casually," when no such feat has been shown.
By the way, Blocky pulled up a quote for me that states that fictional writers that deviate from their standard don't know what they're writing and are basically stupid.
Because apparently 10th Dimensional beings, no matter which fiction they are from, are always multiversal+ by definition. That's why I dislike this system inmensely, it is both flawed because it assumes all of fiction follows "dimensional tiering", and makes meaningless numbers stated on one page overrule feats.
That doesn't surprise me, tbh. If you find something that overturns the system, most fans would just scream "outlier" or "higher dimensional hax". Like, say, the Boneless from Doctor Who. Explicitly 2D beings killing 3D ones.
That's just the thing. Even VBW is aware of instances where the reverse is true like with Star Trek, Full Metal Alchemist with Pride's power, Space Dandy, etc. Instead of trying to come up with something else, they double down on it.
That's the funniest thing about dimensional tiering. There are instances like with Space Dandy where the opposite is the case. The show makes it explicitly clear that not only is the 2D more powerful than both Dandy and the 4D but he can reality warp. Nothing in the that episode indicates otherwise. So good on calling the creator of not only Space Dandy but also Cowboy Bebop stupid VBW because he doesn't follow your system.
In conclusion, people should just form their own damn opinion, have a good foundation on whatever they debate, and not rely on other sites as their private gospel. But hey, we mustn't forget there are some debaters who are outright wankers, who care not about fair play nor good debating and will use this system because it is convenient for the side they like or to sate their hateboner, even though they know it is bullshit.
So, people be people
Why is Saitama twice on the list?
Comicvine is pretty bad
worse than SB IMO
He's so powerful that there's two of hims
Lists in that site are popularity contests. Don't take them seriously one bit.
Dat downplay tho
You mean BeyonderFag's wiki?
What the fuck did you expect?
I'd like to remind everyone that Vivi caught BeyonderpGod visiting h-anime pages on G+.
That alone should sink whatever credibility he had prior which was none.
To be fair
They do have some really nice respect threads for Star Wars
A salty Nardo wanker who got asshurt over DBZ beating Nardo so he turned to comics out of spite.
Oh God,was he a member here?
Yep. He also created a shitload of OBD wiki ripoffs. I think he might have gotten into lawsuits over them but I'm not sure. He's almost everywhere wanking Beyonder or Nardo.
He should have chose someone else to wank instead of Beyonder since he knows jack shit about the character. I know he also wanks Superman too
But eh, watching people get asshurt over DBZ is pretty hilarious
Beyonder has often been seen as the de facto strongest fictional character ever so BeyonderpGod thought it'd be smart to wank him to hell and back.
It doesn't, it just makes him look so salty and pathetic that fucking DBZ of all things makes him so fuckass mad.
The Goku weakness thing is so funny
"Need constant help form his friends"
"Need outside help (SB)"
This is true.
However, just like KMC they suffer from loads of horrible debaters and the use of the arbitrary in style over substance.
Apparently lightsabers are not vibrating or hot enough to penetrate armstrongs skin.
Whoever wrote all of the profiles on the site is clueless as hell
Now you see, I like cosmic Marvel and DC stuff because I actually enjoy the characters, stories, and concepts. Doctor Strange is one of my favorite characters ever not because he's powerful, but because I like his character, history, background, imaginative writing and art, etc.
Silver Surfer and Galactus are very deep and interesting characters regardless of their feats and power.
Thor is a badass who never gives up and has some of the most interesting storylines I've read.
And Superman? Some of my favorite stories involving him are ones where he was depowered and had to get by on his wits and skill alone.
People need to appreciate comics for more than just feats and power.
I really liked that episode of the JLU cartoon where he got sent to the future and was depowered. Super Beard is amazing
Therein lies the problem the quality of comic book writing is very inconsistent, and you have to dig to find good stories. Which don't last in regards to popular characters. Since they keep on churning out more, and more material. Which ends up overshadowing what good writing there is.
That's the problem with long lasting, and popular characters. They don't have an end for their stories. They keep on being dragged on, written by countless different people of varying writing ability, and keep on being redefined. They lose what they are, and end up becoming a reflection of those people.
Just take Batman for example.
Instead of coming up with creative, and intelligent ways for him to defeat his opponents in ways that conceivably make sense? Instead of being the world's greatest detective? Instead of being defined by his personality rather than what he can do?
He just punches people in the face most of the time, and somehow inexplicably wins because "he's Batman."
No intelligent ploys, tricks, or outmanuerving others by thinking ahead and accounting for his disadvantages he has against them.
Which he doesn't have because according to those same idiots he is faster than the Flash, and stronger than Wonder Woman.
Yet, the people who would defend that sort of thing would handwave it.
"Hey, he is Batman it makes perfect sense. He does whatever he wants. He can dodge bullets, and punch through brick walls. He knows a bazillion different martial arts. So, of course he is faster than light and can destroy planets."
No, that thing is not Batman.
It's a mockery of Batman.
The irony is that Batman was supposed to be a constrast against heroes like Superman. He was supposed to be human, and he was supposed to be flawed. He was supposed to be powerless. Yet, succeed by using his intelligence not his fists.
Most of the time he is none of those things.
He is blatantly superhuman, he has more money and resources than god, knows numerous languages, knows all the lore, is a master of nearly every field for no reason, he doesn't have to work for his victories, and he can defeat opponents far more powerful than he is with his bare hands.
This is not a normal human being overcoming the odds with what little he can achieve, and have.
This is a veritable self-insert fanfic character.
You might as well give him a different name entirely.
Batman kicks ass, he's essentially Captain America-levels of Superhuman. But there lies the problem of stating that he's a grounded character in the first place. It's counterintuitive to state that a character is essentially both dominant and the underdog at the same time.
You can't just turn the character into, essentially, Tony Stark and Captain America's love child, and then immediately claim that he's just as flawed and vulnerable as Matt Murdock.
You can't claim Bruce can subdue multiple flying bricks all by himself, and then expect me to be at the edge of my seat when he fights the likes of goddamn Two-Face.
I've always had that issue with Batman, atleast with Captain America you have his Super soldier formula in which people can go nuts on how exactly that makes Steve Rogers compared to any other human combined with his Vibranium Shield means he can fight high tier beings above his weight class with skill and what he's learned from the years of fighting he's done.
And with Tony Stark, he not only has his suit but also his brains and actually uses both of them on more than one occasion.
With Batman, it's basically exactly as you guys state he does. Somehow he's learned every martial art available in the world, bulked up AND can still move like an Olympian(that's simply not possible. You can go lean and mean like Bruce Lee but with the figure Batman usually has, it's not possible to be that bulky and still have the speed Batman has), also is the World's Greatest Detective meaning he also has a fuck ton of smarts AND he's suddenly richer than damn near everyone that isn't Lex Luthor...and here's the funny thing:
Lex Luthor is supposed to be smarter than Batman, Bane is supposed to be just as cunning as Batman(Hell, you can say the same for Mr. Freeze), Bruce Wayne was never as stupid rich as he is now, and Batman was never even remotely supposed to tangle with the likes of Darkseid for more than a few seconds...
Batman basically has become a fanfic character that only few writers these days even try to make him nowhere near as stupid as he's portrayed now...
It's even more telling considering how hard they have to wank The Joker just so it doesn't seem a bit off when Batman has issues with The Joker when he's been fighting off Cosmic Forces that can wipe out his entire rogue gallery with a blink of an eye.
Y'know, I like Batman as much as the next guy. I really do. Batman is a kickass character drudging through mean ass streets to take down some of the worst criminals imaginable and look cool while doing it. He is smart and capable since he has to be if he wants to tackle crime effectively.
And that's where the line should be drawn. You start making him into more than he has to be and it starts being a problem. Part of the issue as I see it is that's cosmic foes are becoming more and more prevalent. Darkseid is a pretty infamous example. For me, Darkseid works best as a final boss type of villain. He's the biggest and baddest there is and he should at least give off that vibe. With how overused and overexposed he is, he becomes less of a menacing horror and more of a recurring nuisance. When you throw Batman into the fry because he's popular, that only makes it worse.
It isn't that Batman can't or shouldn't be involved with this sort of stuff but he shouldn't be at the forefront of it. It's okay to put the guy on the bench metaphorically speaking. If he has to be there, why not have him do something else? Like hacking into something? Taking out fodder? Coordinating plans? But no, he's gotta be on the frontlines punching out gods and crap because that's what Batfans wanna see. They want Batman to be relevant even when he's out of his league. And we're supposed to somehow believe that not only is this possible, it's relatable objectively speaking.
They get those ends for them in some alternate universes and some arcs in main universe are written as being able to work as such. This will always be a problem for popular anime/manga/comics/games etc. They go on forever or very long, get AU stuff and either one or multiple writers keep changing things. I'll give the fanboy/girl thing but the original creator of a series or character could easily do that anyway even if the series ended or was written only by them. The pros and cons of such are that sometimes you get good reinventions/retcons and sometimes not, these days I'd argue more for the latter when I keep picking up or hearing about spin offs for things like Dragonball Super(pink, blue, red and silver hair are power ups?) or most Fate stuff from Nasuverse(I'll give Apoc it's due however, the rest of the billions of stuff post Zero/HA seem not needed, some decent chars came from them but very few and not worth so many meh games/whatever) or most Marvel/DC stuff or Final Fantasy VII and it's increasingly crappier cash grabs(wonder if remake will top the rest in terrible) etc. You can drop a character/fiction and take your personal end then not look back at whatever crap comes later.
If something sells or is popular, it will go on for better or worse(usually worse).
Asgard is the dimension, Asgardia is what fraction made the city in 2012ish, it is currently floating about in the solar system so Gladiator did fly from Andromeda galaxy or wherever Shiar are now to sol. Unless Aaron changed this post Secret Wars 2015.
Yeah, a good example of that is Legend of Korra. Their need for a continuation because of how popular Avatar: The Last Airbender was ended up being ruined by the creators of the series itself.
It was so bad I dropped it after season one. Sometimes a creator should know when to end something instead of forcing something past its expiration date.
When the original series ended on a perfectly fine note.
Only problem was the ridiculous no murder rule. Which is contradicted by the fact Aang murders people in wholesale over the course of the series.
Wan was even worse about that.
Or when they said 900,000 Orcs would loose to a single boggart.
Regarding Batman and Darkseid, I think the scene in Final Crisis was okay, because Darkseid was in a severely weakened form, Batman was wielding one of the few weapons that could harm him (and he had to break his oath against using guns, showing how serious the situation was), and he got effectively 'killed' in the process of stopping him. The Return of Bruce Wayne series, showing him being sent through time to different time periods, also came directly out of that and was pretty good.
There's no silver hair powerup - at least not yet.
Well that would make sense, I do recall it being moved to Earth but I figured that would have been undone by now.
[11:13:02 PM] Nate Qinglong: X
[11:13:12 PM] Nate Qinglong: "muv luv humanity could fight the BETA fine"
[11:13:18 PM] Nate Qinglong: >literally assraped to near extinction
[11:13:22 PM] Nate Qinglong: "could fight them fine"
I once saw someone, straight-faced, linking ED as evidence on Comic Vine, and no one even raised an eyebrow. That should pretty much tell you the standards of the place.
ED? As in Encylopedia Dramatica? The site that has an OBD page on it that BeyonderpGod wrote because he was asshurt and cried everywhere about how we were oh so mean to him?
Honestly, Anime and Manga is a hell of alot harder to succumb to nonsense as Comics and Western TV Shows does mainly because they are always helmed by a single guy who while having editors give him ideas and tell him what to do, ultimately they are mainly in control of their own story.
This is to obviously not say that it isn't possible, but it's just plain not easy compared to writers who was once readers who enjoyed the character too much and are now running the asylum big time. Or shows that are mainly run by the company that doesn't know when it should end.
Not to mention not every series goes on as long as Dragon Ball, Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, etc.
Funny fact about that. BeyonderpGod got himself banned for writing himself into that article. BeyonderpGod fails everywhere doesn't he?
Separate names with a comma.