Discussion in 'Meta-Battledome' started by Reznor, Dec 16, 2015.
We know 18 > Krillin from statements in RoF saga, but it's possible 18 grew in power
Been lurking these forums for a while now, but decided to join because of this thread.
I have a question. Earlier in the thread someone said that Goku and Vegeta's weights sinking through Beerus's planet means it had the density of a neutron star. Can someone run me through the numbers for that calc?
I don't think anyone calced that feat.
Well, can someone please do so now if that's okay?
It doesn't. I've done the calc before. Don't know where it is. But it wasn't that heavy.
But then again...it was a quick calc and I didn't put much thought into it. Hmmmm
Gotcha. Thanks for the info, God Movement.
So the thought process has to be something along the lines of - work out the final velocity of the suits, possibly model it as a meteor and somehow relate mass to this all... because it basically impacts at a small velocity, yet, creates a sizeable crater. So the force it must have impacted with, given the fact it wouldn't have even accelerated to g should be significant
I'll try and look into it, but I can't make any promises.
That's fine. Still would be interesting to know, though, lol.
It should be concerned with bearing load, doing something like this from rudimentary values would be pretty tedious.
So for an estimation, considering the bearing load of rock (before fracture)
Suit should be as tall as it is wide which is 5'7 or 1.70m. Model the cross sectional area as a circle for simplicity. A = pi*r^2 = 2.27m^2
3300000N/m^2 is the safe bearing capacity (anything more would lead to the soil/rock succumbing to the load)
F = ma, so 3300000N/gm^2 = 330000kg/m^2 - the suit must have a mass of >330000kg on a meter squared of ground at any given time, so on 2.27m^2 of ground
3300000*2.27 = 7491000kg or 8257 tons minimum. Something like that, provided my conversions and such weren't wrong.
Guess you were right and it really wasn't that much. Still, thanks. That's interesting. And only in their base forms too!
I don't know if this was brought up before because I don't really keep up with this thread, but the Viz version of the manga has SSJ2 Trunks being stated to be significantly better than Cell Games Gohan, and his max SSJ2 power was said to outright equal SSJ3 Goku
that typo though
VS Babies wiki isn't reliable. Can you give an actual source?
Though I also heard Toriyama will get more involved in the anime in the future so I don't think anyone is more canon than the other, idk.
So it seems like it was just a rumor. Thanks! So, what kind of feats are you guys looking forward to the most next?
Hax. Lots and lots of hax.
Well, that's the second SSJ2 who is on the same level as SSJ3. It seems SSJ3 truly is an unnecessary form, at least when compared to a FPSSJ2.
It's been portrayed like that from the start, really. It's easily the least accomplished transformation in the series
SSJ2: Wrecked Cell Jr's, Cell and Bojack, and led to one of the best fights in the series (SSJ2 Goku vs Majin (SSJ2) Vegeta)
SSJ3: Couldn't kill fat Buu, failed against Super Buu, failed against Kid Buu, failed against Janemba, got shat on by Beerus and ... won against Hirudegarn in an asspull.
That said, this seems to be another manga-only thing. In the anime, SSJ3 Goku was very clearly more powerful than SSJ2 Trunks, and wrecked him very quickly.
Watch Goku brute force himself through the entire obd roster of hax with just raw ki.
No. it's unlikely he'll ever show resistance to all of them. You're severely underestimating how many varieties of hax there are. And hax isn't so general that getting resistance to a few types of hax will let you resist all other types of hax. There's no such thing as general hax resistance.
I saw something on a YouTube comment that genuinely got me thinking. The poster said that it seemed like Beerus was similar to Pre-Crisis Superman. Obviously, she wasn't saying that Beerus is stronger, but the parallels are there. Pre-Crisis Superman could hear people from across the universe. Beerus can smell food from across the universe. Pre-Crisis Superman sneezed out a solar system. Beerus sneezed out a planet (or two suns depending on the version you go with). Not to mention that Beerus can fly through the universe and survive in space. Or that Pre-Crisis Superman can blow away a planet with his breath and Beerus can just tap a planet out of existence. I'm not saying that Beerus can beat him (that'll open up a huge can of worms I'd rather not), but that he seems like a more toned down version of Pre-Crisis Superman. That's actually what inspired my username, as you might have guessed, lol.
Actually there is, certain standard things can nearly completely nullify alot of hax. Especially if the energitics of the universe is dependent upon a constant source.
Like if it's outright stated that having greater energy levels nullifies broken power or just removes it's effects.
A minority of verses go by that though. As it just defeats the purpose of hax to have it operate like that (hax being something that bypasses regular durability so you can defeat a stronger opponent than yourself with it).
Meh, there's always the chance DBS will end with Goku ascending to DB's equivalent of TOAA or some shit.
Definitely possible. Is it likely? Fucked if I know. 2 years ago Goku was star level. Now he's universe+++. Anything can happen.
Currently that'd be Zeno. But he's only low multiverse level and hasn't shown any hax resistances yet (though he should easily get some certain hax resistances through scaling). Zeno is the pinnacle of power in DBS. It is a bit hard for me to see Zeno being boosted much further than he already is and or there being a villain or some other character far above Zeno for Goku to fight later on. Not the way the story is currently going at least (Goku still having not yet surpassed Beerus).
Hax looses it purpose the greater the powerscale. Also hax is 90% dependent on plot. It is as effective as plot wants it to be.
By feat Squirrel Girl should not beat Zeno. But because of her offpaneling ability it can be seriously debated.
Same with Arales toonforce but Beerus being a serious type character nullified Arales toonforce.
Zeno is the NOT most powerful entity in the DB Universe. That title belongs to
Toribot, Akira-Chan, RoboToriyama.
I rest my case this guy is the most powerful being in the Dragon Universe.
No not really. A town level character with spatial hax can still damage or kill a multi-galaxy level character if said character doesn't have spatial hax resistance and is slow enough they can get tagged by the spatial hax sooner than they can destroy their opponent. Though usually when you get destructive feats of a certain level you also usually get very good speed feats to go with them (like traversing the universe in a short amount of time or the expansion of the energy attack you used to destroy a galaxy being MFTL because of how little time it took for the galaxy to be destroyed). And if a powerful character has the speed to blitz a character before they can use their hax they don't have as much to worry about.
That's an NLF. The whole joke about her defeating characters much stronger than her only applies to the strongest character it's been shown to work on. She hasn't offpaneled any multiverse level characters (iirc the strongest character the joke has been applied to is a thanos who was later retconned as being a fake).
Being a toon force character doesn't give you any special resistances or abilities. A toonforce character has to show feats just like any other character. Arale didn't match Goku's kamehameha because loltoonforcecandoanything. It was because she genuinely had the level of power required to do so.
Zeno is the pinnacle right now, but remember when Kami was the highest deity we knew of? Then King Yamma happened. Then King Kai. Then there were 3 more of him. Then the grand Kai happend. Then the Supreme Kai. Then Beerus. Then there were 11 more of him. And then Zeno showed up.
The point is, Toriyama absolutely loves subverting expectations in regards to the pecking order and I wouldn't be surprised if the multiverse of 12 verses is just a part of a larger realm of existence. Or, an exchange like this could happen:
*at the end of the multiverse tournament, when 7 is the only one left*
Goku: "Ours is the only universe left. What now?"
Zeno 1: "We'll just make a new world"
Zeno 2: "Yeah, one with an infinite number of universes this time" *snap* *poof* *multiverse*
No idea how likely something like this is, of course. I guess Scewattack could better the odds a bunch by making a DB between Zeno and the Living Tribunal or ToAA
Another possibly I've seen thrown around is that Zeno might not even be the real Omniking.
He's childish, care-free and generally not someone who should be in charge of a multiverse. While writing a supreme deity like this is a perfectly "Toriyama" thing to do, it's possible that he's, say, the child of the real Omni-king, who put Zeno in charge in order to succeed him.
The best candidate for that we know of is the grand priest. His character is a lot more fitting for the job, and we already know he is the father of Whis and Vados - i.e. he's the father of angels.
Yet another way for DBS to go higher in scope is the possibility of a creation deity. Zeno is the king of everything, but that doesn't mean he created everything in the first place.
Goku pulled his punches so the kids can do it
Gotenks ended up having the upper hand in that fight, but yeah, SSJ3 ate up a lot of the Fusion's time
Zeno stands no chance against LT or TOAA, though it wouldn't stop DB from pulling some bullshit reasoning out of their ass.
Goku wasnt trying to kill Fat Buu and the only reason it failed against Kid Buu was because Goku wasnt fresh and wasnt uses to the high energy drain in a living body
He wasn't really that bad off, he was basing it off the assumption that SSJ3 would do the trick, but it didn't and after running out of energy he couldn't keep up. After that he tried focusing power into that form and it backfired because of the high energy consumption. While Goku says as much, it's kind of hard to believe that he could just put down Kid Buu entirely just going off of what's shown.
I dunno, I think a full-powered Super Saiyan 3 Kamehameha could have incinerated Buu beyond all repair if Goku had given it everything he got right from the start, but remember that he said by the time Vegeta came up, most of his stamina was gone.
I don't really care where DB stands. Zeno's feats and all the other universal shit are sufficient enough
Gotenks was winning that fight and left Boo a fucked up mess before his time limit ran out (which was only 5 minutes btw)
If he had the full 30 min as a SSJ3 then I could see him killing Boo
Not really spartial hax is at the most molecular to atomic level manipulation of matter. Using distortion or rips in space/time This is akin to using high level gravatation fields to produce to effect matter or material objects, wether it be using spartial manipulation to cut,crush,disintegrate etc(it is broken cause you cant make gravity without mass and the other is creating blackholes) . It does not matter if it spartial manipulation,( don't call it "hax" because no fiction calls it hax unless specified idk who doses that.)
If the target is vastly powerful like they have durability surpassing universal and the spartial manipulation user is only galactic level. THEN NO AMOUNT OF SPACE TIME manipulation will move the particle of someone who can witstand universal destruction energy levels. Hax only works if they are on similar tier. Same with everything else.
Or what if he can regenerate from sub-quantum levels. Or produce parallel reality clones form come outside the multiverse to take the place of the one destroyed and also gain exp from their failure.
Not if the guy blitzing dosent even phase him. One guy is MFTL but it only multigalactic in DC. The other guy is FTL with MultiUniversal Durability with a shield that reflects 100% damage back. Speed does not equal power.
What about Doom or Popey.
Actually Toon Force is defined it can allow you pull of retarded feats like erasing the creator switch dimension like litterally go from a 2d character to a 3d character and so on. I was hammered down that episode that Arale was using toonforce and Goku would not be able to beat her. Beerus was only saved because of plot. If toriyama wanted he could have made Arale rek Beerus. As is the nature of toonforce. Infact toonforce is the embodiment of " fuck your NFL paradox the Creator does what he wants."
Never Say never!
You seem to have a huge misunderstanding of spatial hax. You aren't even directly attacking a person when using it. You're attacking/destroying/slicing the space they're inhabiting and once that space goes the portion of matter that existed within it goes as well. It does not matter how much durability you have if you haven't shown spatial hax resistance you can't resist spatial hax, end of.
I don't think you understand that What space manipulation or spartial manipulation is manipulation of space is not erasing matter out of existence. You can't erase matter out of existence at best convert it into a quantum state like light or em waves. But you are not destroying matter. Just converting it into energy. Akin to Black holes accelerating high mass particles to light then placing or flowing the energy into another dimension Or better comparison black holes in the shape of cuts and slash. Or microscopic black holes effecting each particle etc. I am using black holes because they are the closest thing to actual space manipulation.
All of that can and has been resisted with brute force durability. Like example nu52 Superman or Gold/silver age supes.
This is the OBDs definition of spatial hax X . Your own nerfed version of it doesn't make sense. Spatial hax doesn't have anything to do with particles or matter manipulation. You're never going to get anyone on this site to use it.
On topic, how strong does everyone think current Great Saiyaman is? Could he beat Buutenks? I also heard that SSJ2 Adult Gohan was actually weaker than when Gohan 1st went SSJ2.
I don't know the exact answer, but I do know that an object weighing 500k tons would need to be microscopic in size to sink through the Earth. As you can guess, the bigger the object is, the more massive it would need to be. Their Training Gear is definitely heavier than 500k tons.
I have heard that the rusty gohan in frieza saga was above his mystic form.He went ssj2 mystic form because his potential unlocked gave him a boost.Current gohan is at the same lv or stromger than piccolo.
This is interesting, but apart from the basic physics knowledge it isn't substantiated with any calculations. I wasn't too sure how to tackle this with much accuracy, it'd require a lot more reading.
While on the topic of weight, God Movement, can I ask you something? Can you calc the weight of the Super Dragon Balls? Assuming that one itself is made of pure marble, of course, without a hollowed-out interior.
Would be easy. Rather pointless though.
Current Gohan should be least stronger the his ROF arc self right?
Awww. Well, okay. Still would be rather fun to know though.
Firstly as the old Obd saying goes "the wikis is no an end all be all end the discussion".
Secondly I don't give a flying fk about the OBD's defination of Spartial Manipulation. None of us have the authority or certification to define what exactly spartial manipulation is. What you are, is a bunch of people who with basic science knowledge try to define some scientific concept that cannot be scientifically emulated or experimented with. People far superior to you and I have tried explaining this concept in front of a much more knowledgeable audience and failed to convince them.
My explanation takes from the observation of already existing natural phenomenon and applying that logic to a "fictional" senario. I will never claim it is even remotely accurate. But sure as hell better whoever wrote that page. I don't need to nerf it. Hax is a video concept made up to explain unbalanced powers and effect. It does not exist in real life or fiction.
By your rule.
I have been an Obder since 2006 I know how this site works well and its anti-db bias from the begining. I don't need for anyone to accept anything. I am mearly seting the records straight. Time will tell if I am right or wrong.
On the suits sinking:
The hilariously high end(and very wrong, likely) would be something like whatever weight is required so that 1g acting on it vaporizes the surface area below the clothes.
More likely, complicated physics involving soil being treated as a fluid and the suits compressing the soil directly below them until they become sufficiently dense for the suits to have easier times displacing them into the sides of the hole it's making rather than compressing them further, repeat until it reaches the mantel.
Or alternatively compressing to such a point that the pressure acting on the soil below it actually turns it into a molting liquid.
A good starting point might be treating the entire piller of earth from the surface area of the suits touching it to the mantle as one mostly solid object and how much energy it would take to rip away it's connections to the surrounding soil and punch a hole in the mantle below causing the entire thing to sink into it, and then working backwards from there.
okay first of all calm down. secondly, there are different kinds of spacial manipulation but pretty much every single one falls under a category that lets people ignore durability.
Cutting space itself with a blade would seperate or destroy any matter caught in the cut due to space not existing there anymore and matter cant exist in a place without space.
Adding more to this. An object the size of a nickel would need a mass greater than the Earth to sink through the Earth's crust. The suits they were wearing have to be heavier than the planet they're on. Not even close to a calc, but we can determine this much, now.
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