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Dragon ball super chapter 22

Discussion in 'Dragonball' started by Itachi san88, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. Hazard Black♤

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    THE MANGA WILL STAY UNNECESSERY!!!
     
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  2. LordPerucho Well-Known Member

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    This made me chuckle.
     
  3. ensoriki Dicey

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    Wot it could've been anyone else.
    Vegeta also surpassed the gods. Vegeta sired the kid who time travelled. Hence the jab that Black stole the wrong body. In the present Goku interacts with Zamasu and infuriates him, but in the original set-up Goku didn't meet Zamasu before having his body stolen. It was all just done off that tournament, where if Hit or Monaka just as easily could've been snatched.
    Trunks was the time traveller who upset the natural order of things. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, etc are all supposed to be dead. Trunks fucked that up because he and his mother couldn't accept their fates and losses. He, like all the other saiyans, had surpassed the Supreme Kai's.
     
  4. SF latif King of Knights

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    zamasu technically never met, vegeta before he took over goku`s body. and the reason he took over goku`s body is because he is the first one to defeat him as a mortal not vegeta.
     
  5. ensoriki Dicey

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    That is his inspiration in the present timeline for taking Goku's body.
    However we know that Goku only goes to meet Zamasu in the present timeline because of Blacks appearance.
    Zamasu from the start wanted power to enact his plan and the original Black sees Goku who at that time in Zamasu's development has already fought in the tournament and can be seen amongst Kai's as a result of Godtube.

    As we know from the anime. Black already had knowledge on *all of the fighters* in Z. He already knew Vegeta despite not having met him, he knew about Trunks time travelling. He knew all these things because he did his research.

    Black himself could've been anyone that Zamasu saw to be strong. In the present timeline they *stop* Zamasu from becoming Black in the first place, and in the process nearly created him by having him face humilation from Goku.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  6. SF latif King of Knights

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    goku was > vegeta
    so that`s another reason why he took goku`s body over vegeta`s. and second, black (I.E Zamasu) fought goku. as he said it himself. so yea, he fought goku before taking over his body
     
  7. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    You have things backwards,.

    Zamasu saw the U6 tournament and it was clear as day that Goku had the best performance, ergo was the strongest. It's really no different from what Ginyu did

    In the Anime, Zamasu is just fixated on Goku because he's Goku even thought Hit had a somewhat better performance and had a similar ability to adapt his powers. And are you really talking about lack of emotion in the Manga after seeing this chapter?

    The one where Goku challenges Zamasu's ideals, to the point where he tries to convince him he's bound to fail anyway? The one where the Zamasu's start falling out because of their seemingly perfect plan, is on the verge of failing? In the Anime, Goku Black is more concerned with being OP than actually carrying out his plan even.

    Hell, Gowasu seems more developed since he actually takes full responsibility for not knowing Zamasu as well as well he thought.


    See, these things you say are missing are still in the Manga, just not the way you expected it.
     
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  8. Hazard Black♤

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    anime zamasu and anime black are in everyway possible more interessting and entertaining than in the manga.
    just like everything else.
     
  9. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    Believe it or not, most of that has to do w/ the voice acting

    In terms of being written, they're not characterized all that differently
     
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  10. Transcendent Samurai Celestial Sword Style

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    He technically wasn't beating Black in SSJG since he was switching to SSJB every time he attacked. It was to conserve energy. But that in and of itself didn't make much sense. Super Saiyan God is supposed to utilize near perfect ki control, and I find it hard to believe that SSJB would counteract their efforts in that to the point where it's like SSJ3 in ki usage. This bullshit essentially started when Vegeta somehow exhausted all his ki switching to Blue in the manga U6 tournament, which honestly felt like a plot device to have him lose to a far weaker version of Hit so that Goku could fight him. Now Toyotaro feels like he has to stick with the concept, even though it never made sense to begin with.
     
  11. The Strawberry Carrot Top Well-Known Member

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    Vegeta runs his mouth and would normally and canonly get smoked afterwards but the manga is basically his own spinoff so he's safe from that. Ssg goku > ssg vegeta. Black in the manga was a scrub. I can't recall any good showing from him. You could very well say black jobbed in the manga. Ssg vegeta's feats against black can't be compared to ssg goku's anime feats. I also fail to see how vegeta can master ki quicker and better than goku by training a couple of months in the hyperbolic time chamber.
     
  12. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    SSJB isnt SSJG

    Simple as that
     
  13. Transcendent Samurai Celestial Sword Style

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    SSJB utilizes SSJG and SSJ at the same time. That's why it's original name was "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan," even if they changed it to Blue because that name was too long.
     
  14. ensoriki Dicey

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    You are aware that Goku and Gohan spent the remaining week mastering Super Saiyan because it wasn't simply Mastery of base = mastery of SSJ -_-.

    Vegeta spends months to master the prerequisite form, going back to the basics and people can't comprehend it.
     
  15. Transcendent Samurai Celestial Sword Style

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    I can comprehend that fine. The part I have problems with is the claim that SSJB drains ki as fast as SSJ3 when it has been stated to utilize SSJG, which is centered around ki control.
     
  16. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    Think of like chemistry, even though it comes from two basic components, it's likely SSJB is unique in it's own right. Meaning jut because they have mastered SSJ doesnt mean SSJB is also mastered. In other words they have to put on their training wheels yet again to optimize the use of SSJB

    Which is basically what Vegeta does
     
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  17. ensoriki Dicey

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    SSJG is centered around a magic ritual, access and manipulation of God Ki.
    Whis has them go through training to raise and hone their ki. Hell in the anime they don't even do their training in SSJ for a reason, because they know they have to improve their basics.
    SSB's drain just showed as them being tired but still holding the form with diminished strength. Hell in the anime, it burns out the flipping Potara fusion.
    In SSJ3's case Goku fell out of the damn transformation.
     
  18. Transcendent Samurai Celestial Sword Style

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    I still don't see how that would nullify their prior mastery of ki control, which is a skill independent of any of their transformation masteries. Even disregarding that, think back to the Cell Games. Goku and Gohan spent a year mastering the basic Super Saiyan form so that they could maintain it indefinitely. Then Gohan goes SSJ2. Is SSJ2 initially inferior to FSSJ? No, of course not, because even unmastered, it's still a higher form. You don't see Gohan having to stay in FSSJ and then switch to SSJ2 in the moment that he attacks Cell, because even if the form is unmastered, the initial transformation isn't so ineffective that he can only maintain it for a couple minutes. But that's basically what Toyotaro did with SSJB, despite, again, their newfound mastery of ki control in general.

    Does Vegeta ever go through that ritual? I don't think he does. Which simply means that SSJG and manipulation of God Ki are both gained through training to raise and hone their ki if the ritual is not utilized. SSJB is SSJG + SSJ; it always has been.
     
  19. Hazard Black♤

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    they did them better in the anime.
     
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  20. Hazard Black♤

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    lol ok.
     
  21. XImpossibruX the absolute madman

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    So mad how Black is portrayed in the manga.

    What the actual fuck.

    i'm so mad.
     
  22. xenos5 Objectionable Objection

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    Yup. So much wimpier.

    Also. I think Goku's mistake here in the manga is actually much dumber than the anime :lmao . Simply forgetting a seal>>>mistaking a fucking coupon for a seal.
     
  23. Gogeta Shape shifter

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    Not that i necessarily disagree, i also much much prefer anime Black, but calling the manga a spinoff just because it didn't go the way you wanted it to?

    What if the manga came out first and it was with Vegeta shitting on Black? Would you have said "Fucking Toei ruined Vegeta in the anime"?

    No?

    Then sit down.

    Also, how can he master ki quicker? Did you not see him spending 6 fucking months in the time chamber? Is that not a good enough explanation? 6 months is way too short for you? 6 months that Goku didn't get to have?

    I realize Manga Black is much worse. But that's not just because "FUCKING VEGETA UGH", but because he didn't beat anybody really. The threat wasn't there. Look at the anime. They went there, they got fucked. They went there again, they got fucked. They went there a 3rd mother fucking time and still lost and had to resort to Zeno. The manga is worse cause there is no suspense and no feel of threat, unlike in the anime.

    If Goku and Vegeta's roles in the manga were swapped with everything else staying the same, i'd be equally disappointed.
     
  24. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    Black did fuck them up the second he unlocked Rose tho, the difference is this time around they only went back a second time because they had a plan


    Honestly the only difference between the Manga and the Anime instead of the 3rd times the charm it's the second.

    The only suspense in the anime, is cause of by Plot Conveniences in favor of the Villains
     
  25. Gogeta Shape shifter

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    Wasn't it due to Zamasu's healing?

    Whatever heights Black reached in the anime, it was pretty much all due to himself. Zamasu had no healing abilities in the anime and they won through teamwork/coordination, rather than Zamasu healing Black and being effectively useless in all other ways.

    Even IF (and that's a big if) that was the only way they showed suspense, i'd still take that over no suspense.

    I am in the minority when i say i overall like the manga. It's done some things better than the anime and some things worse. I see it as a different version and am fine with both. But you can't disregard issues with the reasoning "WELL THE ANIME DID IT BADLY TOO". Great, then critique both.

    I don't know why people tend to take sides and usually just defend one to the death and hate the other. You all care more about "winning" the argument rather than being right.
     
  26. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    That doesnt make it better,in the anime at best he's Black's meat shield while Black gets plot powerups that werent even properly explained.


    Your opinon I guess
     
  27. The Strawberry Carrot Top Well-Known Member

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    The author is clearly biased towards vegeta from what was shown in this arc. Not having Goku fight black even once, having him upstage trunk's. Having black be afraid of him. It just seems like the guy's a biased fanboy. Why did black have to be afraid of vegeta? Because he looks like goku. Why did vegeta have to stomp black? Because he looks like goku. It seems like he's pandering to some kind of inner fanboy that so wants vegeta to be stronger and more badass than goku and that can only happen in the manga where the I believe to be a vegeta fanboy is in control of.
     
  28. The Mathemagician Headshot Productions

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    I don't really mind Vegeta being center stage in the manga version. Hell I don't even mind Vegeta shitting on Black as I like manga Vegeta, but it has made no effort to make me care for Black. Not to mention him shitting on Black was funny. But Goku never fighting Black once and Trunks getting sidelined in his own saga are pretty big downers for me.
     
  29. The Strawberry Carrot Top Well-Known Member

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    Honestly if the manga was first and vegeta got stomped in the anime that would've made sense because vegeta getting stomped showed black to be a threat and made him credible as a villain. Black getting treated the way he got treated is unacceptable. If goku gave him the hands it would still be unacceptable. Instead of having goku and vegeta team up in the manga it was basically just the vegeta show. Seeing vegeta get clowned every time he gets full of himself is way funnier imo.
     
  30. The Strawberry Carrot Top Well-Known Member

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    Vegeta can't hold a candle to goku. The anime shows were he belongs. In terms of relevance.
    He's second best and would never be able to replace goku.
     
  31. Gogeta Shape shifter

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    Yes, i do think only Vegeta fighting Black is silly. Goku should've at least gotten a shot.


    But here is the kicker. Your complaint is that Vegeta got screen time and not Goku. Not that Trunks is being pretty much cast aside and made irrelevant. You are not mad that Black is a much different, much more INFERIOR version than the one the anime showed. You are not even mad that Black showed fear, but that Vegeta caused that fear.

    Toyble favoring Vegeta is far from the biggest issue there is with his writing.


    Who are you to think only Goku is allowed to be "a badass"?
    If Vegeta gets any attention its only due to the mangaka favoring him? You do realize Toriyama works closer on the manga with Toyble than the anime, right? If he hated Vegeta so much, no fucking way would he have gotten as much screen time as he did.

    I can go ahead and say that Toei favored Goku in the anime instead and maybe this was the true path.

    Infact, i believe this was around the beginning of Super, but i read that some of Super's animators said that if Goku wasn't so popular in Japan, Vegeta would be getting the spotlight more often. So i can also say that the only reason Goku is getting attention is because he is popular, not because they think it's the best decision story-wise.

    Basically, get your head out of your own ass and at least admit, if not to me, to yourself, that the only reason you are complaining is because you dislike Vegeta/like Goku a lot more.

    I'm gonna play your game. Wouldn't only a Goku fanboy think that he should be the only one shown, and that no other character can be as badass as him? (Read your last sentence)

    And one last thing. Maybe Toyble saw how shit Vegeta has been treated and thought "Anime is Goku time, so i'll make the manga Vegeta time". And there's nothing fucking wrong with that unless you dislike Vegeta. How he does it however, is another thing, but not something you were talking about.
     
  32. The Strawberry Carrot Top Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned he was upstaging trunk's. And I mentioned how goku treating black the way vegeta treated him would've been unacceptable. I don't like how vegeta fought black and goku never got a chance to fight him. Vegeta being made to look better than goku instead of both of them being made to look equally good even though goku is better than vegeta and stronger is bad writing. Do you get what I'm trying to say now? Also goku is more popular than vegeta. And considering how bland vegeta is he wouldn't have lasted long as an mc. You're the only one with your head up your own ass. And it would appear that it's so far up there it's blinded you. Otherwise you would've seen when I was showing no bias towards goku and mentioned trunk's being upstaged. Obviously I don't like vegeta. And obviously I like goku. I don't think I've shown any bias towards him though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  33. Gogeta Shape shifter

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    You know, i was going to write a lengthy response but i realized it's completely pointless.

    None of this, in any way i can put it, will ever reach you. You are not here to debate this issue, or find the correct answer, or even justify your side. You simply believe Goku to be better and it doesn't go anywhere past that.

    You've ignored so much of what i've written, not responding to many of my inquiries, only to those that fit what you have/want to say.

    It's as simple as this. You can try to bullshit me all you want, but your urge for Goku/hatred for Vegeta is showing more than you think. You apparently want them to be equal, only to immediately after say how you think Goku is better/stronger. You don't want them to be equal, you are just making a compromise, since it's the most you can accept if it's not Goku being vastly stronger.

    Your rage towards Vegeta is blinding you.
     
  34. Montanz Active Member

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    That's the problem, the motivation he has in the manga is not compelling in the slightest, the fact there is no emotional factor influencing his decisions takes away all the nuance of the character and the weight of his actions, we know Zamasu is supposed to be the inmature kai who makes rash decisions based on what he feels is correct from his narrow world view
    the fact he chose Goku because he wanted revenge after being humiliated by him really manages to catch those traits very well.

    In the manga this decision is portrayed as more "pragmatic" but the characterization of Black and Zamasu in the manga make that supposedly pragmatic side of them feel disjointed from the rest of their character, because they find it incredibly hard to remain even a little composed when things start to go south for them, something that would totally feel natural coming from the characters in the anime mind you ( but we didn't really get to see because up until the moment they merged they held the upperhand so found no reason to panic before that point).

    And I put pragmatic in quotation marks because it's very hard to buy he ultimately choose Goku when he had a omniscient advisor and an omnipotent wish granting device at his disposal, but that's for another topic.

    He was fixated on Goku because suffering defeat at his hands was the most humilliating experience that could ever have happened to him, recieving such humilliation at the hands of a ningen, a species he believed to be inferior to gods in every way, was something he could not forgive, it's easy to see why he would have such a fixation on the individual who pretty much symbolized everything he despised.

    I'm not saying there is no emotion in the manga but the characters in the anime are far more emotionally involved in their war against the other.

    In the anime Black and Zamasu go out of their way to belittle, to aggravate, to humiliate our heroes, this really manages to draw out the emotion from both the audience and the characters, the audience really wants to see them get their shit kicked in and the heroes really want to fuck them up for very personal reasons, and that's something that makes the events truly engaging and elevates the characters in the show.

    Here is the thing though, the manga spends little time building up the tension for those moments to feel as rewarding Vegeta beating up Black in the anime was impactful because you really wanted to see him get beaten up in the first place for being such a cunt.
    Well, the thing about his plan is the fact it requires him to get OP as fuck to be able to remove all ningens so I don't see the point you're trying to make.

    He gets more exposure in the manga and gets the opportunity to do more things than in the anime and that's something I actually enjoyed because it drove home how much he cared, but I also think his character lacked some of the characterization that he got earlier in the anime in conjunction with Zamasu, seeing them discuss about their ideals and beliefs really helped to enhance both of their characters, specially Zamasu.
     
  35. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    There doesnt need to be an emotional factor, the anime simply made it that way.

    Lmao that just makes him sound salty that he lost, which ironically you gave the Manga Black shit for.


    The emotion is simply on the side of the antagonists, which makes sense. Since they're ones mostly w/ the Emotional Attachment. Like Trunks was never emotional when the Androids showed up, at least not while he was in the present

    He just wanted to focus on getting the job done

    Lol he was still the bane of their existence in the Manga. Do you really think The protagonists getting their asses handed to them was necessary in terms of quality of writing?

    No, it's simply filler, and was really only had purpose other than to hand Trunks a free power up

    Lemme put it this way, He pretty much dicked around w/ the plan and was more just drunk on his power, the Manga handled it better since he put exterminating the humans above his lust for power


    Im not gonna pretend you believe half of what your saying

    You saw the Anime first and now youre throwing a bitch fit the Manga was different, not even that it was worse written(because it wasnt)

    We wouldnt be having this convo if the Anime went the route of the Manga, and vice versa.
     
  36. xenos5 Objectionable Objection

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    That just removes what makes Goku Black unique from Future Zamasu. The saiyan influence his body has on him. And it's not even consistent since if he were putting exterminating the humans above everything else as you claim, unlike the anime he should've just made himself immortal along with Future Zamasu. But instead just like the anime they destroyed the super dragonballs and didn't give Goku Black immortality which makes less sense without Goku Black having a stronger lust for power.

    In the anime there is clearly enough to differentiate between Goku Black and Zamasu that you would not suspect Goku Black of being Zamasu from a different timeline at al. But in the manga they're pretty much the same and that makes them both less interesting.


    You can fuck right off with this high horse bullshit. You don't get to dictate what someone does and doesn't believe asshole.


    Goku Black and Zamasu are far less interesting as characters in the manga, the manga as a whole due to its once a month format is way too fast paced, and there are clear cases where the manga tries to fix a mistake the anime made by making it even worse (Trunks not getting a new transformation but somehow surviving a beating from SSJR Black, Goku rather than simply forgetting the seal mistaking a completely different looking coupon for the seal).

    You can have your opinion and say you think the manga is better all you want but you should know we are not trashing the manga because it's not the anime or because it didn't come first. It has genuine flaws and you ignoring those flaws does not make the manga any better.
     
  37. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    Ningens, believe whatever you want. Bad Writing is still Bad Writing


    I'll stick to the medium that doesnt require I conduct mental gymnastics to make sense of things
     
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  38. Hazard Black♤

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    yes , congratulations , the manga makes alittle bit more sense when it comes to power level.
    yet 90% of the anime is more entertaining , funnier and interessting than the manga.
    actualy 100% but RoF arc dragged the anime alittle bit down.
     
  39. The Strawberry Carrot Top Well-Known Member

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    You're reading so much into what I've written but there's no hidden context. What I've I typed is how I feel and my opinions on the matter. There's nothing wrong with a compromise. How many fans of a character do you think would want a compromise with another character they don't like? I don't think too many.
    I'm not saying goku should be running the manga. I'm saying vegeta hogged all of the spotlight against black which he did. Vegeta said goku was better than him. Vegeta admitted inferiority to goku.
    Goku will always be stronger than vegeta if you leave out hypotheticals. And even then goku has more going for him than vegeta. Goku's a more interesting character than vegeta. Vegeta would never be able to carry a series by himself. Like goku could and did for dragon ball. If goku was hogging the spotlight against black I would've said something.
    Because this is suppose to be trunk's arc. I'm thankful he didn't show any mary sueness in this arc so far. Him being sidelined is bs though. He had more to do with black then vegeta did. It means more to goku than it does to vegeta too. It was more personal for trunk's and for goku. Yet vegeta gets black all to himself. Of course my dislike for him is going to show and even more. I'm not hating on vegeta for no reason.
     
  40. Hazard Black♤

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    i agree but why hate on the character?
    it doesnt make sense.
     
  41. shintebukuro Active Member

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    Dragonball Super itself is unnecessary. It's written primarily by filler writers. The author himself criticized it for how garbage it is.
     
  42. Hazard Black♤

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    Okay.
     
  43. TensaXZangetsu Crack-Crack. Snap-Snap

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    Berry-tan was getting his panties in a twist even when Geetz was getting handing Black his Ass in the Anime


    Pay no attention to that guy
     
  44. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    Even though SSJ individually has near to no Stamina drain at all.
    And SSJG likely only has minimal Stamina drain.

    When merged together, the drain becomes huge.
    What's a good analogy... erm... I guess it's like... SSJ is jogging, and SSJG is weightlifting (lets say a fair-weight dumbbell in each arm). Individually the stamina drain isn't too bad. But if you tried jogging, while holding your weights and repping them at the same time. Well... the stamina drain would be many multiple times greater than each activity individually.
    It's kind of a meh analogy, but you should get it.

    Vegeta obviously trained to
    - minimise the stamina drain of SSJG to next to nothing, which in turn reduced the drain of SSJB to lower than originally. (While not as extreme as before, the stamina drain of SSJB is still present, which is why Vegeta also trained to use the combination-power of SSJB in Compact Bursts to yield higher power output than he did originally statically maintaining the form.
    So in a way, he's going Super Saiyan as an SSJG in bursts. It probably wouldn't work the other way around, going SSJG as a Super Saiyan in bursts.
    He's mastered and controlled the form which had the greater contribution to strain in SSJB, which is SSJG, since SSJ drain is next to nothing.

    So to put it simply, he mastered SSJG and learned to use SSJB(Going into Super Saiyan when in SSJG) in compact bursts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017 at 1:48 PM
  45. LordPerucho Well-Known Member

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    Agree or Disagree?

     
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  46. animegod Banned

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    Wow ok goku fanboy first off your saying vegeta will never surpass goku when he surpass him multiple times in the series second how is goku more interesting he been the same throughout the whole series his character literally sucks and if anything goku hogs the spotlight more than anyone hell look at the anime and goku only able to carry the series because he's the main character take that away and he's yamcha literally everything he does is because he's the mc and vegeta better than goku in almost everything and you think it's ok for goku to be 10 times stronger than vegeta but when the manga has vegeta being far stronger than goku you goku fanboys get butt hurt know wonder your fanbase is the most hated in fiction
     
  47. Pandamonium Pandaelicious (⊙﹏⊙✿) Moderator

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  48. Hazard Black♤

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    i see, you already start abusing your position.
     
  49. God Movement Admanistrator

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    Exaggerated. But anime Black is clearly better characterized. Much more interesting.
     
  50. Pandamonium Pandaelicious (⊙﹏⊙✿) Moderator

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    Sometimes ppl have to remember that this is just a silly cartoon about super strong characters beating each other to a pulp.

    And we're here to have fun talking about these crazy powerful characters. Some may agree or disagree on one or another's opinion, but we all just have to remember that our love for SUPER brings ningens like us together at the end off the day.
     
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