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Could've Nardo and Sauce surpass Hashi and EMS Madara without the Rikudou buff ?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library' started by GuidingThunder, Sep 11, 2016.

  1. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    Both Tobirama and Orochimaru acknowledged Naruto and Sasuke during the war , in fact , way before thye defeat Obito as the Juubi Jinchuuriki .
    Tobirama said that Naruto could be even a better Hokage than his brother , and Orochimaru stated that he was positive that Sasuke will one day be the Shinobi who surpasses Madara (referring to EMS Madara of course)
    And then they met the sage and got their Rikudou powers (Rinnegan and six paths sage mode) and not only did they surpassed them but they turned them into fodders in comparison .
    The general consensus is that they were still inferior pre Rikudou buffs . Albeit Zetsu stated that they were already stronger , that's why they were able to meet the sage unlike the previous reincarnations .
    Anyway , it's a 50 % BSM Narudo and EMS Sauce . Discuss ...............
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  2. Hussain .

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    Obviously.

    Those who wank Hashirama & Asspulldara are simply way too delusional. Those 2 are like in their 60s (Hashi), 90s (Asspulldara)?
    while Naruto and Sasuke were only 17 and they have a long way to live and improve.

    Then the last came and showed us how extremely powerful they have become. For example, Sasuke's Chidori being able to destroy that meteor with one strike. Naruto being able to deal with Toneri with his BSM, and even deal with his sword that was able to cut the moon in half. Meanwhile, Asspulldara fanboys are still fapping over him cutting the tops of the mountains. :skully

    And then came Boruto the movie, and Naruto gave Bolt a Rassengan, in BASE, that was able to send Momoshiki to the freaking space and kill him. :lmao

    As you put it, both Hashirama and Asspulldara are nothing but fodders in comparison,
     
  3. Gunners .

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    Naruto did :tupac.
     
  4. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    I'm not talking about their rikudou versions tho .....
     
  5. Jackalinthebox Well-Known Member

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    Naruto and Sasuke were definitely born with more talent. Madara was in his early 20's and still wasn't capable of using a legged Susano'o for instance. Sasuke had EMS for a matter of hours and accomplished what Madara couldn't, yet he was multiple years younger
     
  6. 1Person Member

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    Naruto solo'd 5 bijuu literally within 5 minutes of unlocking bm and completely change that tide of the war the same day he got kcm.

    What we saw sasuke do during the war was the same night he recovered from his eye transplant.

    30yo naruto and sasuke wouldve still been above hashi and mads even if hagoromo didnt boost them
     
  7. Kyu ~ █▬█ █ ▀█▀ ~

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    Yes, it was inevitable.

    In addition to earning endorsement from two of the most decorated individuals in the verse; Naruto/Sasuke were 16/17 years old respectively & weren't far off from their predecessors using powers they didn't have time to hone or expand (at least in Naruto's case). Hashirama/Madara hit their prime and had already been surpassed in certain aspects by these two kids.


    Anyone under the belief that Konoha's founders weren't going to be surpassed, had been setting themselves up for disappointment.
     
  8. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    He surpassed Madara, not so sure about Hashirama.
     
  9. Hussain .

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    :oldryoma

    :bookerskully
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  10. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Sasuke I don't think would have surpassed EMS Madara, perhaps he would improve- but it wouldn't be anything significant. Take Naruto at the end of part 2 vs Naruto in the Last. The latter is stronger but there was nothing significant to add that would change his tier; I'm comparing a part 2 Naruto with all the Bijuu within him including 100% Kurama vs his "The Last" counterpart.

    Stripping their EMS, Madara was still well above Sasuke with his monster Katon jutsu and all that. Adding their EMS you could say they were equalised, but Madara would still have access to the base abilities that put him above Sasuke.
    Taking the comments at face value, I would have to accept that Sasuke would someday surpass Madara (EMS), somehow. However considering the comment came from Orochimaru who was obsessed with Rikudou power and there were all these indications of Sasuke getting the Rinnegan, that could have just been a clever way of saying Sasuke would surpass Madara by getting a superior ocular power (the Rinnegan).

    Naruto is a tougher one to call. Hashirama literally has that one thing on him, being able to suppress Bijuu. However considering how he could use Sage powers and Kurama well you could say that Naruto actually would have a shot at surpassing Hashirama. Especially when you consider all that Naruto had access to.
    You can say Naruto, though it would be hard to see how KSM Naruto would concretely surpass Hashirama, you could definitely see the clear signs that he would be on his way to surpass Hashirama.

    Basically it would be easier to see Naruto surpass Hashirama (considering he'd have access to abilities like the toad song which he could enhance with Kurama's abilities) than it would be to see Sasuke surpass Madara.

    Though the story required them to surpass Hashirama and EMS Madara asap, so we got Rikudou powers.

    Also you misunderstood: Zetsu said if a transmigrant is strong enough, they'll be able to meet Hagoromo. Not they need to be stronger than the previous reincarnation.
     
  11. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    :skully
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
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  12. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    I know what Zetsu said . And why wasn't the previous reincarnations strong enuff to meet him ?
     
  13. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    So you guys think BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama, what a bunch of jokers...
     
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  14. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    Says the guy who thinks :
    - Rinne Sharingan Madara = Kaguya .
    - Dual Rinnegan Madara = prime Hagoromo .
    - uncontrolled JJ Obito = Momoshiki = adult BSM Naruto .
    Or my favorites :
    - SM Madara = Toneri .
    - Rinnegan sasuke = BM Naruto = uncontrolled JJ Obito
    - Vote Madara = Vote Hashirama .
    - 1 Rinnegan Madara + sage mode = 2 Rinnegan Madara ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  15. Zensuki You're annoying

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    Eventually sure.
    Still would put EMS Madara > EMS Sasuke and of course SM Hashirama > Nardo
     
  16. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    Sorry, you triggered fam? And if you're going to reference my scaling, at least get it right, you've made a couple of mistakes.
     
  17. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    He's asking if he's upset you.

    I think Naruto and Sasuke were well on their way to surpassing Hashirama and Madara, but weren't quite there yet before they were gifted with power from Hagoromo.

    Very close, though—which is impressive considering their ages.
     
  18. Arles Celes The Psychologist

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    Maybe.

    Naruto without Six Path chakra but with 100% Kurama BSM would likely be quite stronger than Hashi. Especially after reaching his 20s or later.

    Sasuke with full EMS mastery plus maybe learning Dragon SM(which would be a fitting replacement for CS) would be stronger than Madara for sure especially in his 20s or later.

    Still, after uniting their powers BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke overcame Juubito who gained control over Juubi and became even stronger than when he was mindless...but still stated as stronger than Hashi. Then we may sorta argue about BZ statement of how only a strong enough transmigrant can meet Hagoromo and with neither Hashi nor Madz managing so...

    Madz and Hashi simply fully mastered what they got and they were much older than Naruto and Sasuke during the war. Naruto and Sasuke awakened BM/BSM and EMS the very day the war started.
     
  19. Orochibuto Well-Known Member

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    Naruto was going to have the 9 Bijuus anyway, and in The Last he fought moon cutting Toneri that used an eye hyped to be the counterpart of Rinnegan which also gave him a Juubi-like mode, all of this using nothing else but 100% Kurama.

    Of course he would surpass Hashirama.
     
  20. The Handsome Klad Itachi's Bishieness

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    I don't think so.

    Hashirama was able to enter sage mode whenever he wanted something that I've never seen Naruto or that their has been any allusion to. Second, Hashirama was strong enough to fight the Kurama+Madara with his one natural strength alone. This was the full power of Kurama and not that half crap. Naruto only had half of Kurama's power and if he some how got full, I don't think he would be stronger than Madara+Kurama because Madara is just to powerful.

    I don't Sasuke would've ever surpassed Madara even if he got Rinnegan. Madara's natural abilities seem to be far higher than his. I've never quite seen Sasuke make a firestyle as big as Madara and I don't think he has the natural talent for it.
    Itachi on the other hand.
     
  21. TatyanaUchiha 革命

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    ^This isn't about Itachi though..
     
  22. SaiST 鎧袖一触 Advisor

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    Naruto could pretty much use Sennin Mode any time he wanted as soon as he found out he could use Senjutsu with his Bijū Mode. And there is a vast difference in the power that a Bijū can individually exhibit, and how it can be utilized through the technique of a Jinchūriki.

    And I think people should seriously think about what separated Sasuke and Madara's foundational skills, and what, out of Madara's repertoire of techniques were out of Sasuke's reach in the immediate, and far future. He had higher ranked Katon Ninjutsu, none of them seemed too powerful for Sasuke's level, and none could be said to be a match for what Sasuke could accomplish with Susanoo Kagutsuchi.

    Some of you are highly overestimating how wide the gap was between Naruto, Sasuke, and their predecessors.
     
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  23. Orochibuto Well-Known Member

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    Naruto with full Kyuubi is stronger than Tenseigan Toneri who is at least as strong as 2 Rinnegan Madara which is >>>>> EMS Madara with Kurama.
     
  24. CM Pope The Holy Father

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    Even though the whole concept of the "new surpassing the old" took some hits on a long enough timeline Naruto and Sasuke would both surpass Hashirama and Madara.

    As others have said Hashirama and Madara had already peaked and hit their prime whilst at the end of the series, not counting the Boruto stuff, Naruto and Sasuke were considerably younger and had the potential to keep going and eventually surpass their predecessors.

    Outside of his Rinnegan there wasn't too much that Madara showed which couldn't have been replicated or even bettered by Sasuke, if it hadn't been already. Similarly, whilst Hashirama is something of a taller order I do believe that Naruto could and would surpass him even with only half of Kurama to call upon.
     
  25. Csdabest O.Y.D. Chris Styles

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    Yes if kishi actually focused on Clan abilities instead of wanking Rikudo rinnegan. When the entered the war they were already near or on par with Maddy and Hashi
     
  26. Cryorex I'm Raiken

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    This is the most accurate:

    SM Hashirama > BM+SM Naruto > BM Naruto = EMS Madara >> EMS Sasuke w/ Hypothetical PS > EMS Sasuke = KCM Naruto

    Even with PS, Sasuke was still a far cry from Madara.
    Madara's raw power/amount of Chakra simply eclipses Sasuke's, and the raw power/amount of Chakra one has, has a direct effect on the destructive capacity, scale and range of the users techniques.
    Madara's: speed, strength, katons and susano'o, were all on another level when compared to Sasuke. This is all due to Madara simply having a greater amount/strength of Chakra.

    If EMS Sasuke could manage PS on his own, it would likely be much smaller and far less potent than the PS Madara displayed against the 5 Kage.

    Sure if Sasuke didn't get additional power ups later on, with time and training, he would have eventually become as powerful if not power powerful than EMS Madara with just EMS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
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  27. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Never said they weren't. The fact Zetsu said that probably meant that some transmigrants met them though. However it seems that Hagoromo had to choose to meet said transmigrants too hence not all powerful transmigrants met him.
     
  28. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    Never said you did lol
    Hago himself said that he met many reincarnations over time .
    The fact that Naruto and Sauce were able to meet and not Hashi or Madara (during their natural life) says something .
    Zetsu statement implys that not every reincarnation could meet the sage , Naruto and Sauce were just strong enuff .
     
  29. Munboy Dracule O'Brian Well-Known Member

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    Or Naruto and Sasuke simply died at the same time which helped Hagoromo talk to both of them simultaneously.
     
  30. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    That was never mentioned .
    I don't think met both reincarnations at the same time , always .
     
  31. theBeginning Viva la revolución

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    Didn't BZ say only strong transmigrants can meet the Sage and Hashi and Madara never met him.
     
  32. Klue 輪廻

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    He said it's possible for those strong enough. He didn't say it was a definite. As if either party doesn't have a choice. :laugh

    Yeah, he (Rikudou) didn't have shit to say to dem ninjas. :maybe
     
  33. Orochibuto Well-Known Member

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    Just half of Kurama overpowered 7 Bijuus with the help of Hachibi.

    Give him the other half and he would be as strong all other 8 Bijuus combined.

    Jinchuurikis, specially perfect ones are like 10 times stronger than the Bijuu alone.

    Add to this the fact that Naruto can combine SM with his Bijuu Mode.

    Also half Kurama can gather enough SM chakra to boost Naruto beyond any mode he achieved earlier in the series, imagine what full Kurama could do.

    Furthermore without the buff Naruto also has the other 8 Bijuus which would likely still give him the Six Path Senjutsu without Hagoromo's help, though it would likely had taken years to do so.

    Yeah, Naruto would babyshake Hashirama and Madara.

    Sasuke would still gain Rinnegan without Hagoromo's boost, it would just had taken him years like Madara. So yeah he would also surpass Hashirama and VOTE Madara.
     
  34. -Ziltoid- the Agenda

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    *wonders how stronk Hashi and Maddi were at 17* :lalala
     
  35. theBeginning Viva la revolución

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    That's the problem here. People usually compare prime Hashirama and Madara to 17 year old Naruto and Sasuke who had just awakened their powers and say Hashirama and Madara are stronger.
     
  36. Klue 輪廻

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    Because peeps comparing their manga peeks.
     
  37. theBeginning Viva la revolución

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    And 17 is their peaks?
     
  38. Klue 輪廻

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    Yes, I'm excluding the Gaiden, for obvi reasons.
     
  39. theBeginning Viva la revolución

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    If they were as strong they were as strong as they were at that point in the manga with just awakened powers, then its pretty obvious they'd both surpass their predecessors by the time they reach 25-30.
    The question was could they've surpassed them without Rikudo power up not their manga peaks.
     
  40. Klue 輪廻

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    I have to label this one a no-shitter. We were told flat out. :laugh

    See above.

    :raiden
     
  41. theBeginning Viva la revolución

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    Why is it hard for some to accept it then?
     
  42. Klue 輪廻

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    Cause cats be derp.

    I thought peeps were discussing whether or not pre-Rikudou Naruto and Sasuke were stronger than VOTE Hashirama and Madara, not whether or not they could eventually eclipse that high.

    Because I don't feel as if were necessary for Tobirama and Orochimaru to tell us the obvious to begin with.
     
  43. theBeginning Viva la revolución

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    At that point, I guess they still were a bit below Hashi and Madara but they would've eventually surpassed them even without Rikudo buff.
     
  44. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    And why were't Shodai and Mads strong enuff to meet the hermit :maybe
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  45. Klue 輪廻

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    Gather the same amount of nature energy.

    Minato didn't literally split Kurama's chakra capacity in half. :lbj

    No one said they weren't strong enough. The fact that Naruto and Sasuke were hyped to one day surpass Hashirama and Madara chapters before they met the Sage is a clear indicator that strength wasn't an issue for the two in question.
     
  46. shintebukuro Active Member

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    BM Naruto had his Kurama avatar absorbed by Mokuryuu, which sits ontop of Mokujin's head like a hat. To further demonstrate, Mokuryuu was also handily dealt with by Kurama, whereas Mokujin seemed to handle Kurama with ease (and PS jumped in to save him).

    The conclusion here seems to be: Mokujin/PS > 100% Kurama > BM Naruto ? Mokuryuu

    Naruto needs BM+SM to simply qualify for Mokujin/PS level.

    I'm sure that Sasuke's inferior chakra was due to having not awakened all of Indra's chakra yet, which is likely completed upon his acquisition of the final form of Susano'o (PS).

    That seems like a strange inference to make. I wouldn't use the artwork of that movie as a reliable indicator of that.
     
  47. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    Implying Madara wasn't a threat back then :maybe
    Not even SM or MS level that's for sure :hm
     
  48. professor83 Was I able to live inside your Heart?

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    Naruto without a doubt would have surpassed hashirama
    In a day he was able to change the tide of battle in SA favour from kurama saying Minato paled in comaparisn to naruto to being compared to Hashi by tobirama before jubbito fight and he was just 16. The great advantage Naruto has is his reducing experience of training time with his kage bunshin. He was able to acquire a perfect sage mode neither his master nor his father acquired in a time that seemed Instant so as long as naruto had purpose to grow stronger he would have easily surpassed hashirama at 22-25.

    Sasuke would have surpassed madara but not as fast as Naruto compared to hashirama and he needs rinnegan like collecting bijjus chakra and all to stay in leagues with naruto. Without rikudo power up naruto would have been too far away from sasuke
     
  49. Divinstrosity Itachi: God Of The Gods.

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    Not too derail. . .

    . . . but the question I have is, would the Rikudou buffs have been enough or Naruto and Sasuke to surpass Itachi.
     
  50. GuidingThunder Get out of my way !

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    What does Itachi have to do with anythig tho ? he's already dead :hm
     

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