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Challenger Arena - Troyse22 (Kisame) vs Professor83 (Minato)

Discussion in 'Naruto Battledome' started by Sapherosth, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Sapherosth One post man

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    Challenger Arena Battle
    Match: Kisame vs Minato
    Location: Open field
    Knowledge: Kisame knows of Hiraishin and seals, Minato knows of Waterdome and Daikodan
    Distance:25m
    Restrictions : Kurama


    Word count: 500-1500 words per post.
    Number of posts: 4 Posts each (minimum)

    The first post will be your Introductions on why your character wins. The rest are rebuttals


    This thread is for participants only

    Other posters can observe or show encouragements via Like, Dislike etc. If you want your own match, go challenge it here:
    The Battledome Challenger Arena (http://www.narutoforums.com/threads/the-battledome-challenger-arena.1089318/)
     
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  2. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    My intro will be up later tonight or early tomorrow, depends on if I take 4 extra hours tonight. Savin up for a new car, gotta make that bank lol
     
  3. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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    Intro should be up today or tomorrow depending on my classes :doge
     
  4. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Let's go ahead and dive right into Kisame's hype.

    Kirigakure's strongest Shinobi, Kisame Hoshigaki

    He comes from a village that was feared and known as Blood Mist village, known for their Fourth Mizukage, Yagura, a perfect Jinchuuriki, their brutal practice of forcing classmates to slaughter each other in order to graduate, and of course, the group known as The Seven Ninja Swordsman of the Mist, which Kisame was part of, and undoubtedly the strongest amongst all generations of them. While this is never touched upon in P1, it becomes clear as day in P2 that no other Swordsmen has come close to Kisame's overall power. And this is a group that consists of people who have blitzed Zetsu (Chojuro), clowned Kakashi (Zabuza) and was able to match Kisame in Kenjutsu (Suigetsu). Although it's pretty clear Kisame had no interest in going all out against Suigetsu.

    Pain canonically admitted Kisame has the largest chakra reserves in the Akatsuki
    And Was noted to wield every bit as much power as a Jinchuuriki

    And thus earning the name the Tailed Beast without a Tail

    And on top of all this, he has a blade that continually gives him MORE chakra, provided it absorbs some.

    Kisame has quite a bit of hype backing him, and the feats I will note further support this.

    He managed to low diff a perfect Jinchuuriki AND absorb almost all of Gyuki's chakra

    do not forget, Bee was also a man who canonically stalemated Minato

    And this was BASE Bee, not even V1 or V2. Based on this, and Kisame's hype and feat of low diffing this man, Kisame is well out of Minato's league. And furthermore, adult Bee is undoubtedly above this younger version of Bee based on feats.

    Kisame managed to push Might Gai into his 7th gate, don't forget, Gai is his biggest counter in the entire manga. And Kisame was disarmed from Samehada, which would have secured him a victory in this battle, due to Samehada merge and Regeneration. It's clear Kishimoto felt the need to disarm Kisame in order to kill him off. He was out of most living Shinobi's league at full power, and lots of dead Shinobi, including Minato, bar 8 gate Gai, but mutual death is hardly a victory.

    30% Kisame, who had to split his already weakened chakra reserves amongst 3 Suiton clones to trap Gai's team, managed to force Gai into the 6th Gate, meaning he had to fight Gai at about 7.5% of his chakra.


    In conclusion, Kisame is in an entirely different league compared to Minato. The only thing that canonically puts Kisame in danger is 1 shot Taijutsu abilities, which Minato does not possess.

    Kisame is a Shinobi in which Minato absolutely cannot hope to fight.




     
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  5. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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    Minato Namikaze


    Minato the fourth hokage was well known for his speed earning him the nick name the "Yellow flash"

    Portrayal and Hype: Minato has been potrayed well above kisame
    -Where flee on sight orders (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xuTv2mqGSLA/WCWCgWJJpOI/AAAAAAACdiI/t9Wb47uHNuYJF5-79TrW8yulNNGTJUXsgCHM/s16000/0240-011.png) was given to the enemies if they faced minato
    - Ay calls him unsurpassable (http://i1.[Blocked Domain]/naruto/541/naruto-2379041.jpg)
    -He has shown to deal with multiple high level opponents such as Ay+Bee
    -Obito+kurama(who are above kisame individually) add to all the hype and praise from kakashi, jiraiya and tsunade
    While kisame has receive no such hype or potrayal in manga that is comaparble to the yellow flash

    Speed difference: Minatos speed is well highlited in the manga with or without teleporation. His base speed was fast enough to
    -Grab naruto from MS obito (http://i.imgur.com/hWCrhuz.jpg)
    -Grab kushina and shinshin to a near by tree(1) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hhQaz1hp0yc/WCWYKZo224I/AAAAAAAClVQ/WeHwEzLK1oEaYmXuyWkEbZejCEuT7zUOACHM/s16000/0501-012.png) (2) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jwUQlKpYfjk/WCWYOiZ4LjI/AAAAAAACjak/iy89E6j6aSgBkkBj1JHuTx9Zw9yl3ccfQCHM/s16000/0501-013.png) against a point blank range kurama attack which were deemed faster by SM naruto (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CCxHQQea7Ds/WCWVR1pDrfI/AAAAAAACl1Y/BZzbTwU_ABkVFnH3H2WxX-NaQH6jYgmnACHM/s16000/0497-006.png)
    -Shunshin the entire village and blitzing kurama before kurama could finish tbb (http://i.imgur.com/LhcZSoE.jpg)
    - Arrive well ahead of the other hokages (http://i.imgur.com/nIRyJsih.jpg)
    -His teleportation allowed him to be even faster than V2 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G1GBUEJuU4M/WCWYBSCV-AI/AAAAAAACl0Y/0OIrBBA2y4EIkL-0fyrdSFe2z6LRlqStwCHM/s16000/0541-009.png) at who troubled ms sasuke
    While kisame has shown no feats to react to such a speed where he
    -was left chestless by a v2 bee (http://i.imgur.com/QMWQkAe.jpg)
    - blitzed by a kcm naruto who wasnot considered to be on fourth level yet.(3) (http://i.imgur.com/I83z9gF.jpg)(4) (http://i.imgur.com/KQdR7JE.jpg)

    Reaction: Minato has shown one of the best reaction feats in the man ga by
    -Reacting to V2 ay even physically (http://i.imgur.com/eLxUYaD.jpg)
    -Kamui wrap (http://i.imgur.com/pMXEJTr.jpg)
    -5th step of seizko (http://i.imgur.com/1nO4ni9.jpg)
    While kisame does not even come in leagues due to above mentioned reason while minato will be able to intercept all of kisames attacks.

    Shuriken jutsu and striking speed: Minato uses marked Kunais to set up a strategic locations to teleport with precision while his striking speed was highlighted where
    -Tobirama praised (http://i.imgur.com/nOQOHAX.jpg) minato for placing markers around jubbi
    - Spreading his kunais against the likes of Ay who is faster than kisame (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lkDp6x1mQQE/WCWY8XEToKI/AAAAAAACk5Y/C3UvZ4DMbTw9OuDtoG9D0IMffDRN8ajCQCHM/s16000/0542-013.png)
    - Throwing Kunai at a 25-30m distance and apperaing before madara while kamui wrap just initiated (http://i.imgur.com/N1b7nZg.jpg)
    So minato won't have any problem setting up strategic locations with kunai in the battlefield. While his strength is such that he could cut hachibis tail with a mere kunai (http://i.imgur.com/5bmBUOW.jpg).

    How the battle plays: At a 25 m distance kisame will have his head cut off before he can do anything as kisame has nothing to suggest he can deal with minatos attack that came before kamui wrap. (http://i.imgur.com/N1b7nZg.jpg)
    Let's say for some reason that did not happen.

    Kisames fighting style relies on
    -Setting a favourable terrain (water) advantage while minato with his base speed, kunai, teleportation can prevent kisame from even weaving a single sign.
    -Taking chakra from opponents to grow exponentially stronger (http://i.imgur.com/ZED1wxP.jpg) while minato relies on precesion . Kisame won't get any chakra to take form minato , won't be able to intercept rasengan due to minatos striking speed. The likes of AY (http://i.imgur.com/DvQdCBP.jpg) and Tobi (http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/16400000/Manga-502-Minato-vs-Tobi-minato-namikaze-16440891-424-279.jpg) whose reflexes are far better then kisames couldnot intercept minatos attacks.
    - Waterdome: Minato can bust out of the water dome using his boss summons while we dont know what the exact size of dome would be had Kisame not taken in bijjus chakra.
    -Daikodan:Minato can teleport diakodan using S/T barrier.(5) (http://i.imgur.com/hQa8hCs.jpg) (6) (http://i.imgur.com/S4xqPTt.jpg)
    Kisame gets tagged sooner or later and will die to an attack that he won't be able to intercept with minatos striking speed. Minato wins this match well before kisame can use his trump cards while even if kisame uses them minato can still deal with them.
    Hype:Minato
    Portrayal:Minato
    Matchup:Minato


    Minato also has access to
    -Sage mode
    -Various sealing jutsus

    In short minato is well above kisame :yondaime :yondaime
     
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  6. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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    High diff a perfect jincuriki who did not go Bijju Mode who had to worry about the safety of ponta and sabo
    Minato verbally announced his (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X_IQGrSEIG4/WCWZR9RNkmI/AAAAAAACk5Y/fqYxRjRfqqE4N8FiH--V6H3WUO3MtjUOwCHM/s16000/0543-002.png)arrival

    Look at the thing this way
    Ay who was considered to be the fastest ninja after minato died (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G1GBUEJuU4M/WCWYBSCV-AI/AAAAAAACl0Y/0OIrBBA2y4EIkL-0fyrdSFe2z6LRlqStwCHM/s16000/0541-009.png) could not move an inch when minato could
    Physically throw a kunai, Teleport to marked Kunai in tree and then teleport being Ay to attack.
    Ay and bee never managed to beat minato .

    Also another example is where he could strike a fast opponent such as obito (http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/16400000/Manga-502-Minato-vs-Tobi-minato-namikaze-16440891-424-279.jpg)

    Corrected :doge
    Except he had ton loads of bijjus chakra (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FenxXZg0EJ4/WCWUhZBP2zI/AAAAAAACmEA/316g3Am6yWswW793IIyzaNfz4Z2b4dBaQCHM/s16000/0506-004.png) , Aobas chakra (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GymGSEZy0lo/WCWUkYPgNaI/AAAAAAACmEA/Yba9cI1LUg05UF140G6f5g7vsAL-5H7dACHM/s16000/0506-005.png) and terrain advantage (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-z4gyfBp2VEQ/WCWUzlSQDgI/AAAAAAACl1s/qRJzVbGs0iMb1uL9yo9-NEFQRNPyw2oXQCHM/s16000/0506-011.png)
    Did give him chakra and terrain advantage
    Shadow clones divide your chakra into half not water clones
    Based on?
    Decapitation?
    Corrected :doge
     
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  7. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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  8. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    I disagree, clearly people don't know much.

    Expect my rebuttal by tonight or tomorrow
     
  9. Icegaze 氷の眼差し

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    Yeah would help voters if we stick to how their jutsu stack up against one another.

    I am interested in understanding how at 25m kisame avoids a mark getting close to him off the bat. When we have seen casual tosses from killer bee on 2 occasions were things he did not have the reactions to avoid

    nor did he avoid aoba kunai toss, despite aoba saying he intends to paralyze him with said jutsu. One could claim he didnt need to avoid it as he intended to drain aoba chakra, but aoba never said he was going to use chakra. the kunai could have been poisoned. shows kisame isnt careful enough to get out of a marked kunai range even with knowledge

    we have also seen faster ninja such as itachi, only slightly jump over a fuma shiruken despite knowing that this could be rigged as its a basic uchiha trick.

    these types of arguments are far more useful than pointless hype
     
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  10. PhantomSage Well-Known Member

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    Professor83 rebuttal was too short.
     
  11. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Makes it easier for me.
     
  12. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    I appreciate the effort you put into that, but please don't make long posts in a thread reserved for me and Prof.

    Little comments I don't mind, but don't take up a ton of space
     
  13. Sapherosth One post man

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  14. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Yeah, sorry I've been lazy, I'll have it up tonight
     
  15. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Forced me to reload page, lost all my work.

    /wrists.

    No worries, still putting up a rebuttal tonight, just won't be with scans, I can provide any scans you wish to validate my claims if you'd like, but I wanna get this rebuttal out there.
     
  16. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Given to fodder shinobi. Do you think Onoki would flee on sight against Minato?

    Undoubtedly referencing his speed. Ay is not so retarded as to think Minato is unsurpassable.

    Dodging Ei and Stalemating Bee. That's not what i'd call "dealing"

    That's subjective. I've always viewed "The Tailed Beast Without a Tail" as superior to the nickname "The Yellow Flash". It's purely subjective. A man recognized by the likes of Obito and Nagato as being the best Jinchuuriki hunter is no small testament to Kisame's strength.

    Kakashi's opinion is meaningless, he's trash until DMS.
    Jiraiya's opinion is irrelevant, he was pushed to extreme difficulty by 3 paths of pain.
    Tsunade got punked Kabuto mmkay

    14 year old Obito whos intentions were to extract Kurama from Kushina, not even anything worth mentioning.


    Not sure what you're trying to prove. Minato's Shunshin is barely above average. He's not called the Yellow Flash due to his Shunshin, it's due to Hiraishin and nothing more.


    Kunai next to his feet.

    K. I'm not denying Hiraishin is fast, but he needs more than speed to put Kisame down.


    Kisame canonically reacted and blocked a V2 Blitz by Bee.

    Minato also got his head caved in, it's not like he casually reacted to Ei.


    In a highly immobile form. Naruto also didn't do any lasting damage to Kisame. If anything this is a durability feat for Kisame.


    Dropping your Kunai and using Hiraishin is not a physical reaction to his speed. If Minato could have reacted without Hiraishin, he would've.

    Obito was also young as fuck, and his Kamui warp was undoubtedly slower, due to only very recently unlocking it.

    That entire scene is a disgrace. Apparently Kakashi can throw Kunai faster than 8th gate Gai can reach Mads....what. And he can Kamui faster than Gai can reach him.

    The entire scene is a disgrace.

    He threw some Kunai, not really noteworthy.


    This style of debating is redundant, i'm just going to get into why Kisame wins so we can move along with this debate, we can go back and forth with their feats and hype, or we can move on to why one or the other wins.

    If you really want me to address something, I will, but i'll do my best to cover everything :)

    Kisame wins due to a number of things. His durability, regen, stamina, chakra reserves, immense bijuu like strength, and his ability to totally nullify Hiraishin, now relax, i'll get into why.

    The battle will likely begin with the 2 feeling each other out via CQC, which they should be about even, with Kisame having the advantage due to range and strength. Minato's speed is meaningless if he can't even harm Kisame. Kisame's skill in CQC can only be matched by the top tiers, which Minato is not.

    Once both get pretty much no where, with both receiving minor wounds in CQC, the battle with start progressing to more serious stages, with Kisame's Suiton and Minato's Hiraishin coming out. But, since Kisame has knowledge of Hiraishin in this scenario, its effectiveness is severely reduced, with Kisame deflecting Minato's Kunai with Samehada, or with some low rank Suiton to slow/stop the Kunai. Minato cannot throw Kunai anywhere over 10 feet before Kisame can react, considering Kisame has canonically reacted to much faster things.

    Once Minato undoubtedly starts throwing Kunai around the area, guess what Kisame's reaction is? Waterdome to completely nullify Hiraishin, washing away the Kunai. Minato will ultimately be left helpless against a Kisame merged with Samehada beating the hell out of him underwater. At best he can delay the inevitable and teleport to his washed away Kunai, but he achieves nothing with this.

    Daikodan is relatively useless against base Minato, since he doesn't possess long range chakra based ninjutsu.

    Minato decapitating Kisame is fanfic. You need serious strength to SLICE through bone with a plain Kunai. Minato has no strength feats or hype in base. Rasengan spam via 10+ Kunai is fanfic trash, the Kunai are not stationary whilst midair, the Kunai would fly past Kisame long before Kisame was in any danger of dying from Rasengan spam.




    Kisame is a different league than Minato, Minato cannot match him, he doesn't have the tools to come close to putting him down.



    Off topic, why do I have "All or Nothing" by O-town on replay :mikebatman
     
  17. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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    Even with Ay and bee the cloud shinobi though it was right Idea to retreat (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WUHOrakHslo/WCWY5fEjBfI/AAAAAAACk5Y/If5g9nDdqMksWGhHwvn6kN4zWA_j-1zkwCHM/s16000/0542-012.png). Did kisame have any hype in the manga of this level?
    Except he said that (http://i1.[Blocked Domain]/naruto/541/naruto-2379041.jpg)
    Clear shunshin feat regardless
    Was there any order to retreat as soon as you see kisame?
    He was a best jinchuriki hunter because he could grow stronger proportionally by absorbing (http://i.imgur.com/ZED1wxP.jpg)chakra
    You dont need hogoromo to say minato is strong. There are wise shinobi who may not be strong.
    You can disregard nagatos opinion of kismae being best jinchuriki hunter because he got beaten by 16 year old kid.
    Not going through those jiraya beatem by 3 paths and tsunade thing as it is not topic in hand
    Except obito says just like a flash when minato uses shunshin (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jwUQlKpYfjk/WCWYOiZ4LjI/AAAAAAACjak/iy89E6j6aSgBkkBj1JHuTx9Zw9yl3ccfQCHM/s16000/0501-013.png)
    And below average is not the term you want to use when the guy has one if the best shunshin feats in the manga . Linked all of those in intro.
    Scans?
    Do explain why?
    Minato reacted to the fastest man top speed twice in the same chapter (1) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yt_nEK1_WBE/WCWZBvXU7WI/AAAAAAACk5Y/e_wzFFfjmWIDvvIO-Ifub4iOW7Dznbl1ACHM/s16000/0542-014.png) (2) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gDTTuWfKiY8/WCWZOfoTnKI/AAAAAAACk5Y/Nfil4tSFWXor_CGr05QluyVXVL0RkV9uACHM/s16000/0543-001.png) (3) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X_IQGrSEIG4/WCWZR9RNkmI/AAAAAAACk5Y/fqYxRjRfqqE4N8FiH--V6H3WUO3MtjUOwCHM/s16000/0543-002.png)
    Kisame got his chest blown by slower opponent
    Throwing kunai is a physical reaction. Minato needing hiraishin to react has nothing do with kisame. Neither does kisame have V2Ay speed .Min a to can use Hiraishin.
    Scans to show how he got faster?
     
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  18. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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    OK
    Minato never does that. He straight away took Ays back Obitos back.
    Has no meaning if your attacks won't land on him
    Except it harmed the likes of Ay And Tobi who were faster then kisame. We have seen slower opponents than minato such as V2 bee and 6th gate gai getting the better of kisame
    No meaning in all that if you can't hit your opponent
    Minato starts with hiraishin.
    Spreads kunais in battlefield before even the match starts.
    Minato could throw a kunai physically
    against Ay, in front of jubbi jins so kisame won't intercept that level of striking speed and deflect it.
    Even if kisame can intercept the kunai minato can come and strike kisame before kisame deflects.
    Even if kisame deflects the kunai, it should not be around the periphery where minato could pop up and blitz him
    Add to the fact that with his insane striking speed minato uses more then one kunais (1) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lkDp6x1mQQE/WCWY8XEToKI/AAAAAAACk5Y/C3UvZ4DMbTw9OuDtoG9D0IMffDRN8ajCQCHM/s16000/0542-013.png) (2) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WOsUwRMwdgo/WCWc6_XkIFI/AAAAAAACl1Y/f7AP27pBSLkt4-QL1Itf6iljucwy30cCgCHM/s16000/0640-007.png)so can kisame deflect all of them away in an instant?
    Having knowledge is irrelevant because you have to deal with it.
    Except we have seen characters who used projectiles to stop one from casting (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AsOo8HSQ7Bw/WCWSY66_6HI/AAAAAAACh4U/QlZCXdsMFwE8UF0iiXEHVMluiQfaJuQ4QCHM/s16000/0389-002.png)
    Already said minato doesnot use a single kunai, he uses many
    You cannot evade because if you evade you get the obitos treatment. You have to deal with all the kunais(plural) in such a way that minato cannot teleport near you.
    Scans of kisames insane reaction that surpasses Ay and tobi
    Also the way how kisame deals with the kunai. Dodging would undoubtedly result in kisame getting smashed like obito
    Since minato knows of dome he can spread his marking in large AOE or use bunta to get him out of dome. We dont exactly know the size of dome without kisame prior absorbing chakra
    He can use S/T barrier to teleoport or redirect the daikodon.
    Except minato could cut through hachibis tentacle with a mere kunai. (http://i.imgur.com/5bmBUOW.jpg)
    Kisame is not surviving a odama sized rasengan even if he does he gets seriously hurt to point where he can no longer battle.
    Except We have seen minato strike so fast that the kunai seem to be stationary in mid air (1 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gKGIiE5bSAM/WCWZAhlJxsI/AAAAAAACk5Y/pQz5xcUHqJA6HI19tAsMu1DaFjiAN3khwCHM/s16000/0502-015.png)-2 (http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/16400000/Manga-502-Minato-vs-Tobi-minato-namikaze-16440891-424-279.jpg)) (3 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yt_nEK1_WBE/WCWZBvXU7WI/AAAAAAACk5Y/e_wzFFfjmWIDvvIO-Ifub4iOW7Dznbl1ACHM/s16000/0542-014.png)-4 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6DqymTN_7Tw/WCWZE3Cd5eI/AAAAAAACk5Y/XWK9vFfRqm0z4BEXpn8rTgeZuU8JLiS0QCHM/s16000/0542-015.png)) add to that neither could Ay or Tobi evade those attacks
    Based on? Manga portrayal clearly disagrees with the statement
    Explained that minato can easily takes out kisame.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  19. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Not going to debate this much longer, it's supposed to be Me vs Prof, not me vs everyone.
     
  20. professor83 Dancing in the Dark

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    Others are supposed to analyze our debate are not they?
     
  21. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    No they're not. They're allowed to show support. They're only supposed to analyze our debate after we're done.
     
  22. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Going to address this though. Cutting through tentacles does not mean he can cut through bone. Tentacles are muscle and skin, much easier to cut through than solid bone
     
  23. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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  24. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    Take it to a PM Icegaze.
     
  25. Troyse22 Tailed Beast Without a Tail

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    I'm done with these Challenger arena debates @Sapherosth

    Not dealing with this kinda shit, unfollowing this thread, this was supposed to be Me vs Prof.
     
  26. Daenerys Stormborn Mother of Dragons Retired Mod

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    They are now gone (except for Saph's posts, since he's the organizer).
     
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