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Banning Mael/Tone Policing in the Cafe

Discussion in 'Questions & Complaints' started by baconbits, Dec 28, 2016.

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  1. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    I'll respond within the next 6 hours or so.
     
  2. baconbits Moderator

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    Will do. I thought all the mods would have been notified by now. Good to see you active again, Toby.
     
  3. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Please. People have been pointing out clear issues to you guys for years, you just get all passive-aggressive when they make it clear the problem lies with you all on the staff. Do you seriously expect people to have much faith or patience for years of continued incompetence and what is obvious to everyone just a circlejerk of a staff that only nominates people to perpetuate it?
     
  4. Gunners .

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    Yes to say that the OP is a breath of fresh air is dismissive of the legitimate complaints and solutions that have been presented over the years.

    It is a bit difficult to comment on this incident because I can understand why Mael was banned. If I was moderating the section, I would find his behaviour aggravating and I would have probably banned him sooner. I think there's a fine line between aggressively making your point and aggressively trying to control the conversation.

    The offence that resulted in him getting banned was minor, but I can understand the mindset behind ''I could have banned him for all of those others things. Enough is enough."

    Anyway, my issue with @mr_shadow is his tendency to consider the offensive acts more than the consequences. If someone is being a prick, I feel it is more appropriate to consider whether or not it is hindering the conversation. In Mael's situation, I can understand why someone would reach the conclusion that his behaviour was a hindrance to discourse. In other situations, I have thought let them fight it out.
     
  5. Magilou 「Maginpui~!!」

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    Yeah, bring back our racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic serial sexual harasser!
     
  6. Toby Detective Dollars Advisor

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    Okay. If it's that bad, I guess the reason you chose to stay is because you want to improve it. Right?

    You need to make a few suggestions on what we should do, the goals and how to achieve them. This is required to convince people to do what you want.

    Bacon has made clear proposals on how he would like to see sections moderated.

    For example Bacon suggests that shadow should focus on banning people when they flame, and move op-eds to the debate corner. He says the users can handle themselves and don't need tone-policing.

    To me, as a mod, that's a complaint with constructive advice on how to be a better mod for the section. It lists specifically what he thinks is wrong, what he wants the mods to do instead, and why they should do it. He makes that point without demanding anyone retire or insulting the mod. It is also fairly clear what benefits we get from this.

    IMO that's very useful and convincing. I get that you and others aren't thrilled about this issue either, but Bacon's post makes it clear what mods can do about it and how it benefits the users and the mods.

    Since I actually helped improve the Café and OBD by listening to the users I don't think this complaint applies to me.

    np my current role is more advisory so my activity is spotty. But I'll answer if I'm online.

    Feel free to tag other smods as well like @Xiammes @Trinity and so on
     
  7. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    He is not the first to raise issues and offer solutions, and definitely not the first in regard to the topic at hand.

    Something people have been telling you all for years...

    You guys seem to have gotten the mistaken idea that you need your asses kissed, and to be honest, a lot of you had no business being mods. Some of you nominated friends, even lovers, and just people all around that perpetuated once again, a circlejerk. I've been around long enough to know people tried being patient with you all and it got nowhere. Especially that you guys had a tendency to get pissy about criticism.

    I make it clear too, you just don't like what I have to say and how I say it.
     
  8. baconbits Moderator

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    Your critiques are well said but I think we need to aim for some sort of constructive commentary to go along with our critiques. If you don't think there's any hope of a positive outcome what are we doing posting in this thread in the first place? Implicit in our posting is a presumption that there is a chance for a better outcome than what we have now.

    ---

    Now to fill everyone in we've also been having a parallel discussion about this in the Cafe convo. I feel that comments about Mael's past are overstated. The fact that he was allowed to post and is not banned from the forum as a whole suggests that he may be a troublesome poster but he was legally allowed to post. The offending post is very minor and suggests more of an end to patience than any real transgression.

    To me whenever a regular is banned it negatively affects that section of the forum and bans should always be taken very seriously. The bias should be to not ban if the evidence is ambiguous and mr_shadow hasn't really been able to defend his decision to this point. Perhaps he'll post and surpise us all, but I can't see that happening when we've all seen the post that triggered the ban.

    @Trinity @Nighty the Mighty @Toby @Amanda @mr_shadow @afgpride @Lucaniel
     
  9. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    shadow knows he's full of shit. Why do you think he keeps ducking this?
     
  10. Seraphiel S A D B O Y S

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    Bacon, luc has you on SI so he'll never see your tag.
     
  11. Dragon D. Luffy You can only cry when it's all over.

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    No idea what happened here but I've noticed Mael improved a lot in the past few years. Back when I joined, he'd call someone a "cunt" every 5 posts. I think he wants to improve.
     
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  12. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    Mael was banned because after his last ban there was a suggestion from other mods that we perm him from the Café on next infraction. A while ago he went on an insult-spree which would have warranted a ban, but because I consider him a "friend" (-ly rival) I just sent him a PM titled "Final Warning" informing him of the fact that there were calls for a permaban and that he had to straighten out. He passive-aggressively replied that he "was done".

    The post I quoted would not by itself have warranted a permaban if it came from a member with no past history. But in context this post shows that he didn't take my warning seriously, so I had to make good on the threat.

    I generally don't police tone any more. I tried to in the first month or so, but now I've given up. The fact that Seto and Gunners are not banned should be proof of that. At the time of the warning Mael was adding seemingly machine-generated insults to every other post regardless of the topic, which to me is outside the bounds of "poor tone". Seto and Gunners at least stay somewhat on topic when they're insulting people.

    It's a choice between whether the Café should be a closed club for only those of us who have been here 10+ years, or if it should also be potentially welcoming for new members. I've listened to the criticism and made it freer than before, but there are still some rules.

    Also I think the idea that a member's popularity with the regulars should be a deciding factor in the choice to ban or not ban them flies in the face of the notion of Rule of Law. Two random posters writing the same thing should ideally receive the same treatment from the mods.
     
  13. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Can I see this PM?
    Nonsense. Machines can't insult, have you ever seen DDJ insult anyone?
     
  14. Dream Administrator

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    While I'm sure that some people might find it worthwhile to discuss whether or not Luc is able to get ou tof a permanent section ban or not or how krory foolishly believes that he wouldn't be let back in if I was staff back in the day...this is not the thread for that. ^_^
     
  15. aiyanah finesse

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    but it is a thread to discuss the nature of section bans
     
  16. aiyanah finesse

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    so yeah
    dunno why dem deletes happened man
     
  17. Magilou 「Maginpui~!!」

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    Actually it is, as this thread is entirely about the actions of individual mods against the whole and whether it is possible to transcend this sort of pressure and if mods themselves, as individuals, are infallible.

    Go away, Hitler.
     
  18. Dream Administrator

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    This is a thread specifically about the moderation of the Cafe. The bit about Luc veered away enough the topic that I felt that I felt it was a discussion better suited elsewhere.
     
  19. aiyanah finesse

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    i'm pretty sure the same logic is applied to any section ban
    mael will be banned for a year at the least (maybe less pending how savvy he is)
    if he finds somewhere else to post it wont matter, be it somewhere on the board or off the site
     
  20. Lady Gaga ❤Moth Into Flame❤

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    There was definitely no reason for anyone to tag me in this thread. The Cafe is somewhere I rarely post.
     
  21. aiyanah finesse

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    now the whole context is gone after the tagging fam
    rude as fuck tbh
     
  22. Magilou 「Maginpui~!!」

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    Really, if the staff decides to overturn this decision they should just demod mr_shadow. It's just going to go downhill from here, the masses are going to cause more shit about his decisions (yes, even more than they already are - as difficult as it is to believe!) and won't stop until he's gone anyway.

    Not to mention it'll show how weak the architecture of the staff is as a whole and will lead to more riots.

    good luck fams
     
  23. Gunners .

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    No, the complaint was a response to what you said.
    The sentence implies constructive criticism and those who are offer it are something new to the forum. That is dismissive of the legitimate complaints and solutions that have been presented over the years.

    Stop hammering a square into a circle. You have in mind to say something to vocal segment of the cafe but what you quoted, and cropped out, doesn't depict a sense of hopelessness and it isn't without constructive criticism.

    1) The sentence you quoted isn't me saying that things cannot be improved. The sentence is as simple as it appears at first glance: pointing out that something said is dismissive of previous contribution.

    2) The part of my post you decided not to quote offered constructive criticism. I acknowledged and respected Mr_Shadow's decision to ban Mael, noting that he has to assess the consequences of a person's aggression and sympathising with his hand being forced. This tied into my suggestion that more focus be placed on whether or not a conversation has been hindered by someone's conduct.
     
  24. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Did you seriously just try to change your story?
     
  25. mr_shadow Minister of State Security Moderator

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    You can ask @Mael what happened.
     
  26. Magilou 「Maginpui~!!」

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    >"Did you try to change your story?!"
    >Literally the same exact thing he already said

    ok................................
     
  27. Nighty the Mighty I swim in outer space Super Moderator

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    just to clarify, the idea with a section ban, as opposed to a forum ban, is to remove people from environment where they cause problems

    in the case of a forum ban its implicit that the poster would be a nuisance everywhere on the forum, or that what they've done is bad enough that we don't care. E.g. if you post porn somewhere then you're donezo on the whole forum for awhile until you convince us to let you back in.

    whereas with a section ban it's implicit that the poster is only a nuisance in that one section, e.g. people who go in and make really bad troll threads in the battledome will get battledome sectioned (or reply only banned perhaps) instead of banned from the whole site.

    in and of itself the distinction between normal ban and section ban shouldn't be read into as some kind of grading of how bad ur conduct was lol.
     
  28. Kitsune Well-Known Member Super Moderator

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    1) Please go easy on shadow. Much of what he does is partially based on the input of other mods (like myself, Toby, etc.). He definitely cares about the section. I'm sure he is willing to listen to concerns and adapt to shifting section culture over time. His task of overseeing a rowdy section is pretty thankless so try to treat him with common human decency when bringing up your concerns.

    2) We definitely do listen what you guys have to say. I especially appreciate when it's presented in a civil manner. Bacon, you are a classy guy for keeping your cool even when annoyed (same to others who have done this).

    3) It is our responsibility to keep the forum fun for the maximum number of people. Of course we weigh positive contributions heavily. When the same person who adds entertainment to the forum also causes excessive antagonism towards other members, it's our duty to make them stop.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  29. Vino

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    People care about Mael?
     
  30. baconbits Moderator

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    This is what I don't understand, my friend. Why a section permaban? If he's not worthy to post in the Cafe why is he good to post anywhere else? Is it just to make him miserable? Secondly, what was so bad about that post? To me it seemed harmlessly strident.

    I'm glad about that, however this latest move seems related more to tone than any actual flaming.

    It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I just think the Cafe's culture is more aggressive than some other sections. I don't know how you get around that so we've all been forced to accept it.

    I see your point to an extent but realistically you have to approach a popular member differently than a guy who only has five posts and has no backing, the same way a prosecutor will handle a celebrity trial differently than any other. The political ramifications are different. I suspect that the same ban leveled at someone who no one likes wouldn't have generated the same attention, this thread and the level of anger we see now. I don't think they should be treated absolutely differently but practically speaking the approach should be different.

    Secondly, you cannot on one hand say "treat everyone exactly the same" and then say "this isn't really worthy of a ban but because its Mael..." The one flies into the face of the other.

    I disagree with you on this one. The decision to ban Luc from what was then the Chatterbox is very similar to this one and goes to a broader moderation policy that seems set on banning regulars... but not really banning them.

    I suppose my larger question is this: how does this make the forum better? Luc is a popular member. His posts generate some level of activity. Others don't. The Chatterbox or whatever its called now would be better off with him in it than with him not in it. And the policy isn't consistent. If he's worthy of a ban ban him. Section banning doesn't really make much sense other than to antagonize the poster in question.

    I was hasty in my response. I wanted to get ahead of the Krory like fatalism and it wasn't really in you or @Seto Kaiba 's posts. I apologize to the both of you.

    Well one is more severe than the other. I would think that a section ban is a lighter form of punishment simply because the action was less heinous. I just don't think its worth using.

    I don't think he does. He quotes me in the Cafe.

    mr_shadow is a good man and one I respect. I by no means am trying to imply he be unmodded. I think he made a poor decision this time, tho.

    I appreciate you saying so.

    Then I guess I wonder how members like Zero have never been banned. The guy goes after my family on a regular basis.
     
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