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Banning Mael/Tone Policing in the Cafe

Discussion in 'Questions & Complaints' started by baconbits, Dec 28, 2016.

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  1. baconbits The Optimistic Pessimist

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    I'm not seeing an adequate response to my commentary so I'd like an explanation as to why @Mael was banned. A post was linked that was extremely tame compared to most of what is allowed in the Cafe and in my opinion only raised more questions. If that post is the reason @Mael was banned the decision should be immediately overturned.

    This decision raised larger questions about attempting to police tone in the Cafe. I truly don't understand the attempt to do this. Just as the Blender is a unique area allowed to be more insulting in their ratings than the rest of the forum the Cafe is a unique are that is much more confrontational than other parts of the forum. This is simply part of the culture and there's nothing right or wrong about it. It simply is. That said attempting to remove what simply is creates problems and doesn't solve anything. Most of the veteran posters would rather the mods focus on modding issues like personal insults against family members, direct racist insults, threats against other users, straight up flaming and posting op-eds as if they were articles. In general most other commentary should be acceptable.

    For example I respect @Gunners and @Seto Kaiba immensely, but both tend to insult a lot when they debate. I don't necessarily like this. But I don't think any mod should try to stop this behavior. I think there should be some leeway between what you may like to experience and what should be allowed. And in my opinion many of Mael's posts fall into that gap between "wouldn't like to experience" but also "should be allowed".

    I would like to see the mods and admins allow us to discuss this issue directly. I feel that trying to ban people who are important parts of the Cafe can create additional problems the staff can't anticipate. I'm normally a calm poster and I think I can speak for most other posters and staff members alike when I say I create few problems. But to me this is an issue that angers me and makes me resent the way the forum is being run.

    On the other side of this issue is @mr_shadow . Opinions on his and @Amanda 's style of modding are quite diverse. I personally have no issue with them in general and believe they've been a positive upgrade for the Cafe, however when I have had issues with them its always been on their attempts to police tone rather than simply worrying about flaming and rule breaking. I'd like to get many of the regular posters' opinion on this issue as well, folks as diverse as @Chie and @ZeroTheDestroyer , @HolyHands , @afgpride , @Flow , @makeoutparadise and many others who post in the Cafe regularly.

    tl;dr: Mael shouldn't have been banned and trying to police tone causes more problems than it solves in the Cafe.
     
  2. Flow hahahahaha

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    The fact that you had to tag a blatant troll Chie, Zero, and myself to this thread shows the forum regulars in this café section has seriously declined considering the latter two have a huge negative history with Mael.

    I'll try to be as neutral as possible:

    In regards with the Café policy, I don't really have an issue with mr_shadow or how he's been modding except some questionable situations such as the Café section itself not being moved up higher to where it used to be, folks like @ZeroTheDestroyer, @Thorin or others getting away with saying some heinous crap or trolling in general but others being warned or banned for less.

    I feel like he's toned down initially from when he first got control of this section due to the amount of hate he was getting.

    In regards with Mael (again being neutral), he had gotten warned and banned numerous times. He has shown he is inable to learn from his behavior (cussing people out, making personal insults, etc). The problem with him being banned for the post that mr_shadow pointed out however was that it really wasn't worst than what others say around the section at times. He could had easily just waited for him to flip out on someone like he always does and then go for the perm ban.

    For the record if someone says "You're being a fucking idiot", and the post provides no other substance that should obviously be punishable and discouraged. But saying someone is being idiotic and providing reasoning behind the post itself is a tough thing to moderate. What one person finds offensive, others might not. You can't really thought control individuals.

    At the end of the day, rules exist for a reason. There won't be a perfect system, and people are going to slither around them or try to find loop-holes. In this situation though, I don't think there should be that huge of a public out-cry and say that as neutral as I could.

    I mean, seriously I'll ask again lol, was someone reporting him? I just find it odd how out of all the crap people have said here, he's the one that got the hammer for THAT specific post. Jumped the gun way too fast imo for that situation.. @mr_shadow, you don't have to say the name but if you could provided reasoning behind the focus on him I think you could release a little bit of the hate off yourself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  3. Lucaniel non serviam

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    man this one's a toughie cuz mael is a really bad poster and the cafe is a better place without him but i feel like nf should have basically no rules prohibiting flaming cuz it's more fun than way

    so i'm in two minds
     
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  4. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    "tone policing"

    loloololololololololololol
     
  5. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    >People still asking this after shadow already explained it wasn't because of the individual post

    You guys truly do belong alongside the OBD.
     
  6. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Made it bigger this time, because apparently everyone in the Cafe needs to get their eyes checked.
     
  7. aiyanah finesse

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    unless he's permbanned i cant see this mattering enough for any discussion to be had
    if he is permbanned then you aint getting discussion tbf
     
  8. Dream forever flawless Administrator

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    I've alerted the Cafe staff and will let them have the first shot at answering your concerns and queries.
     
  9. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    According to what shadow said, he's just permed from the Cafe. So just a section perm.
     
  10. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Shadow himself has more or less admitted he was full of shit on it, he just won't take it back out of some bullshit preemptive notion Mael will eventually do something worth the perm.

    I'm tired of the guy, like so many of the other staff. They just nominate those to continue to kiss each other's asses, and not anyone competent these days.
     
  11. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    >these days

    :skully
     
  12. aiyanah finesse

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    lol that this is a thing

    is mael invariably heading towards a section perm?
    perhaps we should ask @Mael himself

    feel you been wronged here or are you more surprised by how long it took for staff to catch you out?
     
  13. aiyanah finesse

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    do we police by tone now?
    fascinating
     
  14. aiyanah finesse

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    if i can manifest enough killing intent for moody i can get permed
     
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  15. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Mael has a temper, but unless shadow is omniscient and has proof of this omniscience, he has no leg to stand on. He's just trying to avoid the obvious that he modded based on his personal sensibilities once again, specifically because he didn't like the person, tone of their post and/or politics.
     
  16. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Hey, Luc has been perm-banned from the Chatterbox for a while.


    Just like his antics with underage women, he always embraced his bans as a way of standing out. Badges of honor for calling people out and such. Never apologized, or felt he did anything wrong.
     
  17. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Hell, the first thing he did after a long ban when coming back - literally first day - was repeatedly call a black member he disagreed with a "ningen" just to try and get under his skin :skully
     
  18. Seraphiel Meem Magician

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    soon it will be Seto's turn.
     
  19. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Hilarious.
     
  20. Atlas Well-Known Member

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    Bring back MegaHarrison to make the Cafe great again.
     
  21. Flow hahahahaha

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    Nah, hell no. In the end he was modding out of his emotions.
     
  22. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Mega would've just done it sooner.
     
  23. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Actually wait, yeah, bring back Mega.
     
  24. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    He has tried.
     
  25. Mider T VM Rapist

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  26. mr_shadow Lousy, PC-obsessed hypocrite Moderator

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    While Seto is often a pain in the butt, his offensiveness usually comes with some sort of argument or contribution to the debate. His ad hominems are also mostly targeted at things people can control, such as their political views or religion, and not things beyond their control like their nationality or race.
     
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  27. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Damn, not even 30 posts in and we're into conspiracy theories.

    That's supposed to be my gag.
     
  28. baconbits The Optimistic Pessimist

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    Is somebody going to address my concerns or will this go ignored?
     
  29. Toby Detective Dollars Advisor

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    We are discussing this in the mod section.

    I appreciate Bacon's articulate OP, clear definition of what he thinks is wrong and his clear proposals on how to fix this. It's really fresh air on this forum to see someone who can point out what they think is wrong and give a clear alternative solution to fix it.
     
  30. Toby Detective Dollars Advisor

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    BTW I just noticed this thread in passing

    If you want me, amanda, shadow or another mod to look at this, please just tag them in the future @baconbits
     
  31. mr_shadow Lousy, PC-obsessed hypocrite Moderator

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    I'll respond within the next 6 hours or so.
     
  32. baconbits The Optimistic Pessimist

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    Will do. I thought all the mods would have been notified by now. Good to see you active again, Toby.
     
  33. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    Please. People have been pointing out clear issues to you guys for years, you just get all passive-aggressive when they make it clear the problem lies with you all on the staff. Do you seriously expect people to have much faith or patience for years of continued incompetence and what is obvious to everyone just a circlejerk of a staff that only nominates people to perpetuate it?
     
  34. Gunners .

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    Yes to say that the OP is a breath of fresh air is dismissive of the legitimate complaints and solutions that have been presented over the years.

    It is a bit difficult to comment on this incident because I can understand why Mael was banned. If I was moderating the section, I would find his behaviour aggravating and I would have probably banned him sooner. I think there's a fine line between aggressively making your point and aggressively trying to control the conversation.

    The offence that resulted in him getting banned was minor, but I can understand the mindset behind ''I could have banned him for all of those others things. Enough is enough."

    Anyway, my issue with @mr_shadow is his tendency to consider the offensive acts more than the consequences. If someone is being a prick, I feel it is more appropriate to consider whether or not it is hindering the conversation. In Mael's situation, I can understand why someone would reach the conclusion that his behaviour was a hindrance to discourse. In other situations, I have thought let them fight it out.
     
  35. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Yeah, bring back our racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic serial sexual harasser!
     
  36. Toby Detective Dollars Advisor

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    Okay. If it's that bad, I guess the reason you chose to stay is because you want to improve it. Right?

    You need to make a few suggestions on what we should do, the goals and how to achieve them. This is required to convince people to do what you want.

    Bacon has made clear proposals on how he would like to see sections moderated.

    For example Bacon suggests that shadow should focus on banning people when they flame, and move op-eds to the debate corner. He says the users can handle themselves and don't need tone-policing.

    To me, as a mod, that's a complaint with constructive advice on how to be a better mod for the section. It lists specifically what he thinks is wrong, what he wants the mods to do instead, and why they should do it. He makes that point without demanding anyone retire or insulting the mod. It is also fairly clear what benefits we get from this.

    IMO that's very useful and convincing. I get that you and others aren't thrilled about this issue either, but Bacon's post makes it clear what mods can do about it and how it benefits the users and the mods.

    Since I actually helped improve the Café and OBD by listening to the users I don't think this complaint applies to me.

    np my current role is more advisory so my activity is spotty. But I'll answer if I'm online.

    Feel free to tag other smods as well like @Xiammes @Trinity and so on
     
  37. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    He is not the first to raise issues and offer solutions, and definitely not the first in regard to the topic at hand.

    Something people have been telling you all for years...

    You guys seem to have gotten the mistaken idea that you need your asses kissed, and to be honest, a lot of you had no business being mods. Some of you nominated friends, even lovers, and just people all around that perpetuated once again, a circlejerk. I've been around long enough to know people tried being patient with you all and it got nowhere. Especially that you guys had a tendency to get pissy about criticism.

    I make it clear too, you just don't like what I have to say and how I say it.
     
  38. baconbits The Optimistic Pessimist

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    Your critiques are well said but I think we need to aim for some sort of constructive commentary to go along with our critiques. If you don't think there's any hope of a positive outcome what are we doing posting in this thread in the first place? Implicit in our posting is a presumption that there is a chance for a better outcome than what we have now.

    ---

    Now to fill everyone in we've also been having a parallel discussion about this in the Cafe convo. I feel that comments about Mael's past are overstated. The fact that he was allowed to post and is not banned from the forum as a whole suggests that he may be a troublesome poster but he was legally allowed to post. The offending post is very minor and suggests more of an end to patience than any real transgression.

    To me whenever a regular is banned it negatively affects that section of the forum and bans should always be taken very seriously. The bias should be to not ban if the evidence is ambiguous and mr_shadow hasn't really been able to defend his decision to this point. Perhaps he'll post and surpise us all, but I can't see that happening when we've all seen the post that triggered the ban.

    @Trinity @Nighty the Mighty @Toby @Amanda @mr_shadow @afgpride @Lucaniel
     
  39. Seto Kaiba God Hand Crusher

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    shadow knows he's full of shit. Why do you think he keeps ducking this?
     
  40. Seraphiel Meem Magician

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    Bacon, luc has you on SI so he'll never see your tag.
     
  41. Dragon D. Luffy You can only cry when it's all over.

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    No idea what happened here but I've noticed Mael improved a lot in the past few years. Back when I joined, he'd call someone a "cunt" every 5 posts. I think he wants to improve.
     
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  42. mr_shadow Lousy, PC-obsessed hypocrite Moderator

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    Mael was banned because after his last ban there was a suggestion from other mods that we perm him from the Café on next infraction. A while ago he went on an insult-spree which would have warranted a ban, but because I consider him a "friend" (-ly rival) I just sent him a PM titled "Final Warning" informing him of the fact that there were calls for a permaban and that he had to straighten out. He passive-aggressively replied that he "was done".

    The post I quoted would not by itself have warranted a permaban if it came from a member with no past history. But in context this post shows that he didn't take my warning seriously, so I had to make good on the threat.

    I generally don't police tone any more. I tried to in the first month or so, but now I've given up. The fact that Seto and Gunners are not banned should be proof of that. At the time of the warning Mael was adding seemingly machine-generated insults to every other post regardless of the topic, which to me is outside the bounds of "poor tone". Seto and Gunners at least stay somewhat on topic when they're insulting people.

    It's a choice between whether the Café should be a closed club for only those of us who have been here 10+ years, or if it should also be potentially welcoming for new members. I've listened to the criticism and made it freer than before, but there are still some rules.

    Also I think the idea that a member's popularity with the regulars should be a deciding factor in the choice to ban or not ban them flies in the face of the notion of Rule of Law. Two random posters writing the same thing should ideally receive the same treatment from the mods.
     
  43. Mider T VM Rapist

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    Can I see this PM?
    Nonsense. Machines can't insult, have you ever seen DDJ insult anyone?
     
  44. Dream forever flawless Administrator

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    While I'm sure that some people might find it worthwhile to discuss whether or not Luc is able to get ou tof a permanent section ban or not or how krory foolishly believes that he wouldn't be let back in if I was staff back in the day...this is not the thread for that. ^_^
     
  45. aiyanah finesse

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    but it is a thread to discuss the nature of section bans
     
  46. aiyanah finesse

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    so yeah
    dunno why dem deletes happened man
     
  47. Rey Play Nice, Play Pharah

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    Actually it is, as this thread is entirely about the actions of individual mods against the whole and whether it is possible to transcend this sort of pressure and if mods themselves, as individuals, are infallible.

    Go away, Hitler.
     
  48. Dream forever flawless Administrator

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    This is a thread specifically about the moderation of the Cafe. The bit about Luc veered away enough the topic that I felt that I felt it was a discussion better suited elsewhere.
     
  49. aiyanah finesse

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    i'm pretty sure the same logic is applied to any section ban
    mael will be banned for a year at the least (maybe less pending how savvy he is)
    if he finds somewhere else to post it wont matter, be it somewhere on the board or off the site
     
  50. Alejandro Queen Bitch

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    There was definitely no reason for anyone to tag me in this thread. The Cafe is somewhere I rarely post.
     
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