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Old 10-02-2012, 11:51 PM   #1
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Default Shouldn't Jiraiya be stronger than Itachi?

Or at least on the same tier and/or position, considering his hype through Pain? I know A>B>C doesn't necessarily work, but here, Pain is stated to be the strongest Akatsuki member (stronger than Itachi and Sharingan Obito) at the bottom of the panel, directly by Kishi:
Spoiler:


And Pain straight up says, here, that if Jiraiya knew at the start what he learned about Pain as he died, that he would have most likely defeated Pain, the, as said by Kishi, strongest Akatsuki member (stronger than Itachi):
Spoiler:


So even if A>B>C logic, doesn't work, if Jiraiya > Pain, Pain > Itachi, and (presumably, based on the general consensus here) Itachi > Jiraiya, shouldn't Itachi and Jiriaya be on similar tiers, against what many Itachi wankers debaters argued for in the tier thread? And this is ignoring Kishi's message he sent us through Itachi (about both Jiraiya and Itachi dying if they fought), which was passed off was "a lie or excuse" by Itachi wankers supporters.

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:53 PM   #2
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Itachi even said the best he could do against Jiraiya is a stalemate. So they are on the same tier. They were even given the same stat totals in the databook and Kishimoto elaborated that Jiraiya's boast in which he could have killed both Itachi and Kisame at the same time wasn't unfounded.

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:56 PM   #3
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Kishimoto didn't write that, it was an editor but I do think its clear Nagato is the strongest akatsuki member. Jiraiya isn't close in strength to Pain, hardly anyone is.

I do think Jiraiya and Itachi are comparable though and will think so until the part I statement is refuted.

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:56 PM   #4
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jiraiya > itachi?


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Old 10-02-2012, 11:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob631 View Post
Kishimoto didn't write that, it was an editor but I do think its clear Nagato is the strongest akatsuki member. Jiraiya isn't close in strength to Pain, hardly anyone is.
Pain himself admitted that, if Jiraiya knew that each path was a remote-controlled dead body (intel SM Naruto, who still lost, had), he would have lost. And how do you know an editor wrote that? And either way, it must have gone through Kishi first.

Pain's words > your opinion.

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jiraiya > itachi?

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:59 PM   #6
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The problem comes when Pain said that but feats clearly puts Pain above Jiraiya and puts Nagato way higher yet.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by TheIronMan View Post
The problem comes when Pain said that but feats clearly puts Pain above Jiraiya and puts Nagato way higher yet.
SM Naruto's feats aren't really on par with Pain's, but he gave him a fight.

This is similar to the Edo Madara vs Hashirama debate. Madara himself says that Hashirama can beat him, but people deny it.

I'll take Pain's/Kishi's words over other's.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #8
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Not another Itachi vs Jiraiya

The reason Sage Kabuto stood a chance againts Itachi was cause Kishi made him conveniently immune to Genjutsu by being able to block his cornea; something Jiraiya cannot do.

Therefore, Tsukuyomi GG.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
Pain himself admitted that, if Jiraiya knew that each path was a remote-controlled dead body (intel SM Naruto, who still lost, had), he would have lost. And how do you know an editor wrote that? And either way, it must have gone through Kishi first.

Pain's words > your opinion.
The editor writes those side comments, not Kishi.

Its unclear what Pain was talking about. He could have been talking about if Jiraiya knew where to find his immobilized body he wouldn't have won or he could've been referring to if he knew each paths ability. Either way Jiraiya still isn't superior, these factors are part of Pain's strength.

Then we saw Pain destroy a village and easily defeat a superior version of Jiraiya after exhausting himself.

Its beyond clear Jiraiya is weaker than Pain.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:03 AM   #10
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What's meant is that if Jiraiya knew other bodies had been summoned, he could've caught them all with genjutsu. Bare in mind, they were in Amegakure so Pain couldn't destroy his own village. That's not to say Jiraiya and Itachi can't be on the same tier — they should be, in my opinion.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyuubiYondaime View Post
Not another Itachi vs Jiraiya

The reason Sage Kabuto stood a chance againts Itachi was cause Kishi made him conveniently immune to Genjutsu by being able to block his cornea; something Jiraiya cannot do.

Therefore, Tsukuyomi GG.
You need to be in range to use Tsukuyomi and its less effective against an opponent who uses bunshins. Itachi cannot use MS techniques as quickly as he did as an edo, one shot of Tsukuyomi will weaken him. I believe one on one Itachi would beat Jiraiya, but it isn't a simple battle by any means.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:05 AM   #12
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Itachi showed that Sages aren't immune to Genjutsu.

Itachi showed speeds to get behind Killer Bee, and was able to cast Genjutsu on him, despite his previous Sharingan Genjutsu knowledge.

Jiraiya took absolutely no precautions to counter off Itachi's Genjutsu; infact, he didn't even seem like he was even gonna try Sage Mode againts Itachi AND Kisame. If its just Itachi, he would have taken him lightly, and he would have met his end very quickly right then and there.

I hate to do this, but Tsukuyomi GG.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob631 View Post
The editor writes those side comments, not Kishi.

Its unclear what Pain was talking about. He could have been talking about if Jiraiya knew where to find his immobilized fighting he wouldn't have won or he could've been referring to if he knew each paths ability. Either way Jiraiya still isn't superior, these factors are part of Pain's strength.

Then we saw Pain destroy a village and easily defeat a superior version of Jiraiya after exhausting himself.

Its beyond clear Jiraiya is weaker than Pain.
If Jiraiya decided to head for Nagato, I'm sure Pain would be sent after him, and, according to Pain, Jiraiya would end up winning.

We can't always judge based off of feats alone. Sometimes, we have to take in manga statements and portrayal too. And everything you mentioned above is intel Naruto had, and yet he still lost. But Pain was pretty sure that Jiraiya would win with the same intel, and without Katsuyu.

And people saying "Tsukuyomi GG" are people who base this completely off of feats. Try interpreting and understanding manga statements a little more.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
SM Naruto's feats aren't really on par with Pain's, but he gave him a fight.

This is similar to the Edo Madara vs Hashirama debate. Madara himself says that Hashirama can beat him, but people deny it.

I'll take Pain's/Kishi's words over other's.
Naruto didn't give Pain a fight. Deva Path stomped him once he recovered his powers and could've killed him in more than one ocassion.

That was, after fighting a whole village by himself. That Naruto was not near Pain.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:08 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
If Jiraiya decided to head for Nagato, I'm sure Pain would be sent after him, and, according to Pain, Jiraiya would end up winning.
In what context though? Its completely unclear what knowledge he's talking about, and then we saw a superior Jiraiya with knowledge lose to an exhausted Pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
We can't always judge based off of feats alone. Sometimes, we have to take in manga statements and portrayal too. And everything you mentioned above is intel Naruto had, and yet he still lost. But Pain was pretty sure that Jiraiya would win with the same intel, and without Katsuyu.
I base nearly everything off statements. If you do as well you'll realize you've made a large blunder, Naruto was twice stated to be stronger than Jiraiya, he had intel, he lost badly to a depleted Pain, therefore Jiraiya would too.

Thats a direct power statement, Pain's comment is an unclear hype statement.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:09 AM   #16
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I'm pretty sure Pain was referring that if Jiraiya knew there were 6, he'd have saved Frog Song for all Six.

But Jiraiya needed knowledge for that, which he didn't have.

If Pain had knowledge though, Pain would have prevented Frog song like he did againts Naruto, and would have end up stomping.

Naruto was stated to be above Minato or atleast Jiraiya in this arc, one or both which are stronger than Jiraiya.

And Pain contradicted his statement by saying Naruto was the most troublesome opponent he had ever faced. Considering Naruto had Frog song too, Naruto was above Jiraiya by Fukasaku's and Pain's statements, and his performance, and yet, once Deva Path's powers arrived, Naruto was defeated, and without even counting Chibaku Tensei or Chou Shinra Tensei.

So try to use the whole context of that arc, and all the statements, and not just one, which was more or less recotned.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jimbob631 View Post
I base nearly everything off statements. If you do as well you'll realize you've made a large blunder, Naruto was twice stated to be stronger than Jiraiya, he had intel, he lost badly to a depleted Pain, therefore Jiraiya would too.
But Naruto had all the intel possible on Pain, and lost. Whereas Jiraiya, if he was given at least a part of that intel, was said to probably have won against the same person. How am I supposed to interpret this (serious question)?

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno
Pain himself admitted that, if Jiraiya knew that each path was a remote-controlled dead body (intel SM Naruto, who still lost, had), he would have lost. And how do you know an editor wrote that? And either way, it must have gone through Kishi first.

Pain's words > your opinion.
You don't understand Pain's words.

The statement was essentially referring to the genjutsu that Fukasaku/Shima cast. Had Pain spilled the beans about his true identity before the genjutsu, he still would've gotten caught in it (due to underestimating Jiraiya and using only half his bodies), yet he wouldn't have been able to catch Jiraiya off guard afterwards, who would then go find and kill Nagato while Pain is immobilized.

Jiraiya was not a fraction of Pain's strength. He was pushed to his limits by 3 bodies, and Tendou (God realm) is probably stronger than most of the bodies combined. In other words, the 3 bodies Jiraiya fought, whom gave him a lot of trouble, were but a fraction of Pain's total strength.

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:12 AM   #19
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Itachi>Orochimaru>Jiraiya

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Old 10-03-2012, 12:13 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
But Naruto had all the intel possible on Pain, and lost. Whereas Jiraiya, if he was given at least a part of that intel, was said to probably have won against the same person. How am I supposed to interpret this (serious question)?
Again Pain's comment doesn't mention intel, its an unclear statement. If he knew are secret could mean if he knew other bodies were around, if he knew their abilities, or if he knew where to find the immobilized body. These secrets are part of Pain's power.

We know Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya, we know with near full knowledge, an army of toads, and Pain being exhausted that Pain was still stronger than Naruto. We know the rinengan is the epitome of power in the manga. This all leads us to believe Pain is superior.

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