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Old 03-01-2012, 07:54 AM   #1
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Default Secret of the Cinnabar Mansion: The relation between Mew, Ditto, Mewtwo, and... Fuji?

This is a jumbled mix of a few theories put into a single (hopefully coherent) story. Remember, this is just a theory.


Back in Generation 1, when Pokemon was new and full of magic (before competitive-oriented generations came in to cheapen that experience), one of the greatest mysteries of Pokemon existed.


That mystery was Mew; ancestor of all Pokemon (disregarding local Sinnoh folklore), and at one point thought a myth, even to the players. Mew was the one true enigma of the franchise.

Long ago, before Pokemon existed on Earth, a meteor tore through the atmosphere and crash-landed into what is now known as Mt. Moon. Inside that meteor was the fetus of what would eventually give birth to what is now known as the Pokemon world; Mew.

If you remember, it was said that Pokemon had originated from outer space back in the old Gen 1 games and episodes; a point which is being further pushed with more recent revelations, such as Deoxys. Clefairy and Jigglypuff seem to hold a strong tie to this Moon Stone - Clefairy in particular. Both somewhat resemble the little pink fuzzball on a higher level than the others.

"Fetus" is an interesting choice of words for Mew as well, as Mew is portrayed as a fetus/embryo, and surrounds itself in a pink bubble, which strongly resembles a placenta. The idea was to get across that Mew was the birth of all Pokemon, using its very appearance to subtly sink it in.

Anyway, it is unknown if it was just one Mew, or many. If it was able to split itself into over 500 different species, it may be capable of asexual reproduction (which is shared by another Pokemon). Mew soon populated the world with many of its spawns in all shapes and forms. There was one Pokemon in particular, however, that Mew seemed to share the strongest connection with, and this Pokemon exists as yet another... lesser known enigma. One which hinted to the very existence of this elusive ancestor Pokemon.


Why Ditto? Well, if you look at their genetic make-up, both Mew and Ditto are the same. Both possess the genes of all Pokemon in existence, as is evident in their ability to Transform into any Pokemon (Smeargle does not learn Transform naturally, so it does not count any more than a Pokemon getting Transform via Metronome).

Ditto are numerous, in contrast to the rare and elusive Mew... or is it? Is Mew really that elusive, or has it been right under our noses the entire time? Is Ditto really an entirely different Pokemon of its own, or is it simply a Mew that has lost its form?

But... why would a Mew just... lose its form?

Well if you look at it, Ditto is an amoeba-like Pokemon of an amorphous shape, which is able to assume the shape of anything it is able to interact with. These are all traits shared by stem cells, which may have been the idea behind the creation of Ditto. Stem cells have provided a vast amount of aid in the area of genetic engineering, and have been used for various genetic experiments.

Experiments namely...

"July 5: Guyana, South America. A new Pokémon was discovered deep in the jungle."

"July 10: We christened the newly discovered Pokémon Mew."

"February 6: Mew gave birth. We named the newborn Mewtwo."

"September 1: Mewtwo is far too powerful. We have failed to curb its vicious tendencies..."


... cloning.

4 diaries exist which give us some clues as to the existence of Mew, and the experiments that went on which gave birth to its ferocious clone counterpart - Mewtwo; an uncontrollable monster of immeasurable power. These diaries could be found in a visibly damaged mansion on Cinnabar Island, where said experiments and countless test cloning took place...


... the very same place where you find the Ditto.

From here I'd like to venture off from my main point for a bit to talk about the man who had written these diary entries in the first place. This was the man who had lead the search through the jungles of Guyana, in search of the elusive Mew. His name was Dr. Fuji.:



"We dreamed of creating the world's strongest Pokémon... and we succeeded."

Dr. Fuji is not as cold-hearted of a man as he may have seemed in the First Movie. In fact, his reasons were not at all to create the world's strongest Pokemon.

"All he [Giovanni] wants is to control the most powerful Pokemon the world has ever known. I of course want something more... much more."

He wished to use these cloning experiments to aid him in cloning his own daughter, Amber, who had long since died and left him grief-stricken.


That was, until the clones of Charmandertwo, Bulbasaurtwo, Squirtletwo, and Ambertwo died in the development stages. Only Mewtwo survived.

The topmost quote were Fuji's last words before he died at the hands of Mewtwo... or did he?


Lavender Town is home to the first real concept of death in the Pokemon world. It has a building littered with gravestones where dead Pokemon are buried. The town is also home to probably the world's kindest Pokemon care-giver in the world.


Mr. Fuji is well-known for having great sympathy for Pokemon, and even provides a shelter to abandoned and orphaned Pokemon in Lavender Town. But did you know that Mr. Fuji himself is not native to Lavender Town?

In fact, Mr. Fuji is actually from none other than Cinnabar Island, the very same place where the mansion exists where the experiments to clone Mew took place. Another interesting piece of information is that Mr. Fuji is friends with Blaine, who himself had worked as a scientist for Team Rocket, and was involved with the Mewtwo project to some degree. In the manga, Blaine and Mewtwo even came to share an actual physical bond, where they could not be separated for too long without being drastically weakened.

Also, Mr. Fuji and Blaine both share a very strong connection with Mew. It is revealed that the two had both at one point been to Faraway Island, where Mew can be found. On Faraway Island, a series of messages can be found, saying that only someone who is pure of heart can find Mew. The author of the messages' name is smudged out, but "-ji" is still readable at the end of the author's name.

Could it have been Mr. Fuji? Did Mew appear to Mr. Fuji due to his kind nature? Also, does this somehow have a connection to Dr. Fuji, who had also taken an interest in Mew? Was Mr. Fuji so adamant in taking a stand against Team Rocket's abuse of Pokemon because he himself had been guilty of the same crime at one time (albeit with pure intentions)?

Mr. Fuji has a memorial building in Lavender Town now, where the graves of deceased Pokemon can be found. However, there are several chambers that only Mr. Fuji himself is able to access. Could those chambers be where the graves of Amber, Ambertwo, Charmandertwo, Bulbasaurtwo, and Squirtletwo can be found?

To put it bluntly, is it possible that Dr. Fuji is in fact a young Mr. Fuji? Could Mr. Fuji have been involved with the creation of Mewtwo this entire time?



Anyway, back to the main point. Is it really a coincidence that Ditto and Mew also share the same color palate, with their normal color being pinkish (Ditto's is a mix between Mew's pink and Mewtwo's purple), while their shiny forms are both a baby blue? Is it also a coincidence that they are the same weight, meaning that both possess the same exact amount of matter in their substance? How about the fact that both have a similar stat spread, with Ditto's being a solid 48 all-around while Mew's is a superior 100 all-around? Or how both have a 5 in each performance stat?

While Mew and Ditto share the same weight with other Pokemon, and while some other Pokemon have the same performance stats, and while other Pokemon have similar stat distributions, only Mew and Ditto have ALL of these factors in common, while the others just share one of the many factors with the two.

Out of all of Team Rocket's countless attempts to clone Mew, only one was a success. This clone, superior to Mew in every way, lacked Mew's ability to alter its genetic make-up and transform into any Pokemon in existence. However, this is Ditto's one and only trait. Are Ditto and Mewtwo that different, or are both just two different results of Team Rocket's attempts to clone Mew?

Is Ditto really a failed attempt to clone a Mew? Mr. Fuji being like the father of this event. Mew being the fetus. Mewtwo, based on perspective, being the human offspring, or the devolved fetus. And Ditto being the stem cells. Is there a connection between the 3, and maybe even the 4 (Mr. Fuji)?

Perhaps that while Ditto seems like a rather weak Pokemon, it's actually been part of a much larger picture.

Also, take note that while you find Ditto in abundance in the Mansion (more specifically the lab section), you also find an abundance of Ditto in Cerulean Cave A.K.A. The Unknown Dungeon - the same place where Mewtwo lives.


So what say you? Has your respect for the little genetic blob gone up a bit at least?


Last edited by Jυstin; 03-01-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:06 PM   #2
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Terrific read, good work.. your argument carris some heavyweight, I'm actually hard-pressed not to call it fact.

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Old 03-01-2012, 04:32 PM   #3
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Mind = Blown.

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Old 03-01-2012, 04:37 PM   #4
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Where did you get the idea Mew came from a meteor or Team Rocket was involved...? That was never stated or even implied in the games.

I do find the possible connection to between Mew and Ditto to be quite interesting, though.

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Old 03-01-2012, 05:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Neo Arcadia View Post
Where did you get the idea Mew came from a meteor
Clefairy/Jigglypuff came from a meteor. If all Pokemon in Gen 1 descended from Mew, then Mew had to have come from outer space.

Quote:
or Team Rocket was involved...?
... seriously?

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Old 03-01-2012, 05:42 PM   #6
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Yeah, take off that Team Rocket set.

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:26 PM   #7
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I've heard about the "Ditto being a failed Mew clone" theory before, but I've never actually seen anyone take that simple thought, and build an even larger theory with it.

Very nice read. Hard pressed to not consider it all fact.

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:33 PM   #8
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Thanks guys!

Not like I'm trying to prove anything with my arguments, as it is speculation and theory which has some counter points (which I've already seen online and know how to address for the most part). They're also mostly not my theories, though I did add my own speculations here and there. I just decided to take all these separate theories and combine them into one subplot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Arcadia View Post
Where did you get the idea Mew came from a meteor or Team Rocket was involved...? That was never stated or even implied in the games.

I do find the possible connection to between Mew and Ditto to be quite interesting, though.
Cubey covered the first part about Clefairy and the Moonstone, and how in the Mt. Moon episodes and game portion, it talks about Pokemon having come from outer space on the Moon Stone (then you also have Deoxys). Well Clefairy being a descendent of Mew, means that Mew would have most likely been the first to arrive, and then gave birth to all the rest like it says.

As for Team Rocket's involvement... you had to have seen the anime or read the manga, right? Dr. Fuji, who lead the research team for cloning Mew, says in the movie that Giovanna hired him after hearing of his work with cloning. One of the quotes I used were from D. Fuji himself:

"All he [Giovanni] wants is to control the most powerful Pokemon the world has ever known. I of course want something more... much more."

You could search it online too, but the scientists who worked on the experiments to clone Mew were doing it at Giovanni's request, because he was the one who wanted to control the world's strongest Pokemon, so they were working under Team Rocket.

The games don't have it made as apparent as the anime and manga do, but since the manga and anime do reveal who was behind Mewtwo's creation (and Genesect's too, as the evil teams of the series often are behind engineering powerful Pokemon for their own use), we're able to know who was the mastermind of the cloning operation.

The games are also based off of the manga mostly, which tells us that Team Rocket was behind it, and that Blaine was one of their scientists, who I believe later tried to stop them.

Thanks. The Ditto and Mew thing's been going around for a while, but I figured I'd put a little story to it

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubey View Post
Clefairy/Jigglypuff came from a meteor. If all Pokemon in Gen 1 descended from Mew, then Mew had to have come from outer space.



... seriously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stunna View Post
Yeah, take off that Team Rocket set.
1. Mew has never been confirmed to be the common ancestor of most Pokemon. That is purely in-universe speculation by scientists as a result of Mew's immensely wide movepool. All Gen 1 Pokemon being its descendants is also a load of shit, as Porygon, Grimer, and Voltorb all came into existence via human actions. As for coming from space, lol no. Mew has been explicitly stated as a Pokemon originating from South America once thought to be extinct.
2. Team Rocket was never involved with Mewtwo in the games. It was all Fuji's, Blaine's, and other misc. scientists' work. Any connection between the two is just something the anime invented for the sake of M01's plot.

Lrn2 Pokemon. Now I remember why I never come to this section.

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Arcadia View Post
1. Mew has never been confirmed to be the common ancestor of most Pokemon. That is purely in-universe speculation by scientists as a result of Mew's immensely wide movepool. All Gen 1 Pokemon being its descendants is also a load of shit, as Porygon, Grimer, and Voltorb all came into existence via human actions. As for coming from space, lol no. Mew has been explicitly stated as a Pokemon originating from South America once thought to be extinct.
2. Team Rocket was never involved with Mewtwo in the games. It was all Fuji's, Blaine's, and other misc. scientists' work. Any connection between the two is just something the anime invented for the sake of M01's plot.

Lrn2 Pokemon. Now I remember why I never come to this section.
Why then are you asking for where something is stated in the game if you're going to disregard in-game/anime stuff? Like Mew possessing the genes of all Pokemon, or that Pokemon came from outer space?

They said Mew was discovered in South America, but that doesn't mean that's where it originally originated from. Same way Clefairy are first discovered/seen in Mt. Moon, in Kanto, Japan.

If you notice, I was pulling pieces of information from more than just the games, which don't give us a whole lot of information, especially in Gen 1 games where the story was sparse. I was also drawing from the anime and manga (where it reveals that Team Rocket was behind Mewtwo's creation), the latter which the games are based off of.

Where'd I say that this was just purely in-game? I've been using the Pokemon series in its entirety the whole time.

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Old 03-01-2012, 06:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jυstin View Post
Why then are you asking for where something is stated in the game if you're going to disregard in-game/anime stuff? Like Mew possessing the genes of all Pokemon, or that Pokemon came from outer space?

They said Mew was discovered in South America, but that doesn't mean that's where it originally originated from. Same way Clefairy are first discovered/seen in Mt. Moon, in Kanto, Japan.

If you notice, I was pulling pieces of information from more than just the games, which don't give us a whole lot of information, especially in Gen 1 games where the story was sparse. I was also drawing from the anime and manga (where it reveals that Team Rocket was behind Mewtwo's creation), the latter which the games are based off of.

Where'd I say that this was just purely in-game? I've been using the Pokemon series in its entirety the whole time.
Unfortunately, using multiple canons and trying to compile them all at once doesn't work. They're entirely different continuities that constantly contradict each other and are made by unrelated people. Figuring out how it worked in each individual story is possible, but crossing the canon streams just isn't a good idea.

Spoiler:


I and some other guys on another forum had a 100+ post thread about discussing Mewtwo's game backstory. This is the image we came up with, and it lists all in-game data related to Mewtwo's past.

Oh yeah, and only some Pokemon come from outer space. The rest have been around since the Earth itself was shaped.

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Old 03-01-2012, 07:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Arcadia View Post
Unfortunately, using multiple canons and trying to compile them all at once doesn't work. They're entirely different continuities that constantly contradict each other and are made by unrelated people. Figuring out how it worked in each individual story is possible, but crossing the canon streams just isn't a good idea.

Spoiler:


I and some other guys on another forum had a 100+ post thread about discussing Mewtwo's game backstory. This is the image we came up with, and it lists all in-game data related to Mewtwo's past.

Oh yeah, and only some Pokemon come from outer space. The rest have been around since the Earth itself was shaped.
Why are you restricting this data to just the game then? It's the anime that more heavily speaks about Pokemon coming from outer space, and the anime which more heavily reveals that Team Rocket was behind Mewtwo's creation.

The Ditto portion is purely in-game. That doesn't need to mix with anime canon at all, so it's perfectly ok to put it in this story and not have it need any of the anime facts to back it up. The outer space and genetic experiments, while also existing in the game, also exists in the anime (and the manga), to which the anime was what I was more so referring to.

Now, the only portion that uses both game and anime/manga canon to try to support itself is Dr. Fuji being Mr. Fuji. That's the one thing you could really argue against, as game and anime canon rarely work together. It's possible that the anime developers made it so that Fuji, who already existed in the games, was the scientist behind it, just like Blaine was in the manga, and they could have drawn this from the fact that the two are friends.

The game makers then, in turn, could have used that and put a little Easter egg about Fuji's involvement with Mew, with the letters on Faraway Island. It's not the first time it's been done, where the anime/game designers have used ideas later in the series.

As for this part:

"Oh yeah, and only some Pokemon come from outer space. The rest have been around since the Earth itself was shaped."

As far as I know, this too is just a speculative assessment that lacks proof, the same with Pokemon originating from space (which as I stated at the top of this thread, that this whole thing is a THEORY), since it's just been stated, and one could disregard it as "common folklore" as well.

I'm also guessing you mean Kyogre and Groudon. Their dex entries kinda clash with Mew's data. It doesn't say that Groudon formed ALL land though, because that would be impossible. If there was no land nor water before, there would have been... no planet. It's possible that this meteor crashed a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago, since no time of impact is ever given, and Groudon and Kyogre could have been one of the first Pokemon who had spawned from Mew. There is no definite time given when these events all take place, at all.

We know it must have been extremely long ago, since prehistoric Pokemon exist, and also since the eyelash of Mew was said to have been discovered as a fossil, which take an extremely long time to develop.

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Old 03-01-2012, 07:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jυstin View Post
Why are you restricting this data to just the game then? It's the anime that more heavily speaks about Pokemon coming from outer space, and the anime which more heavily reveals that Team Rocket was behind Mewtwo's creation.

The Ditto portion is purely in-game. That doesn't need to mix with anime canon at all, so it's perfectly ok to put it in this story and not have it need any of the anime facts to back it up. The outer space and genetic experiments, while also existing in the game, also exists in the anime (and the manga), to which the anime was what I was more so referring to.

Now, the only portion that uses both game and anime/manga canon to try to support itself is Dr. Fuji being Mr. Fuji. That's the one thing you could really argue against, as game and anime canon rarely work together. It's possible that the anime developers made it so that Fuji, who already existed in the games, was the scientist behind it, just like Blaine was in the manga, and they could have drawn this from the fact that the two are friends.

The game makers then, in turn, could have used that and put a little Easter egg about Fuji's involvement with Mew, with the letters on Faraway Island. It's not the first time it's been done, where the anime/game designers have used ideas later in the series.

As for this part:

"Oh yeah, and only some Pokemon come from outer space. The rest have been around since the Earth itself was shaped."

As far as I know, this too is just a speculative assessment that lacks proof, the same with Pokemon originating from space (which as I stated at the top of this thread, that this whole thing is a THEORY), since it's just been stated, and one could disregard it as "common folklore" as well.

I'm also guessing you mean Kyogre and Groudon. Their dex entries kinda clash with Mew's data. It doesn't say that Groudon formed ALL land though, because that would be impossible. If there was no land nor water before, there would have been... no planet. It's possible that this meteor crashed a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago, since no time of impact is ever given, and Groudon and Kyogre could have been one of the first Pokemon who had spawned from Mew. There is no definite time given when these events all take place, at all.
Kyogre and Groudon were just a few of the Pokemon I had in mind. We know via fossil species that Pokemon have been around for at least hundreds of millions of years, and mimic the Darwinian evolution and prehistoric periods of real life. If Mew did turn into other Pokemon, that had to have been eons ago. Who knows how it all happened. Maybe Mew and its long-extinct brethren were aliens, maybe Arceus put them on Earth, maybe they naturally came into existence... Who knows. The Pokemon world is truly a mysterious place, and Game Freak doesn't want to spoil that mystery.

I guess if you want to mix the canons, I can't stop you or convince you otherwise though I still disagree. I suppose I've got nothing left to contribute to this thread, so I'll stop trying to rain on your parade. Sorry if I come off as a bit of a dick, I'm very edgy about Pokemon canon.

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Old 03-01-2012, 07:33 PM   #14
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I was assuming Mew existed that long ago as well. Not only to support it being Kabutops' and Omastars' ancestor as well, but also because of the mention of the Mew fossil and whatnot. While newly discovered by humans, I'd always assumed Mew was actually extremely old, based off of those two factors.

I'd also assume that Kyogre and Groudon were one of the first who had come from Mew, if this were true, because since they formed the land and sea (or in Groudon's case, rose the continents up, insinuating that the Earth had a relatively smooth surface before, barring hills and whatnot), Kyogre would have had to have been around to give Water Pokemon like Relicanth a place to live, that being the ocean.

Though, even within the game's canon, quite a few things clash. That too has ruined the magic a bit. But this is just all taking a few theories and making them into one (debatable/plausible) story, to bring back that magic, not exactly to prove anything. It's all at the reader's discretion.

And don't worry about it. No offense taken. I knew it was full of holes anyway. The anime story and game story, without having to mix them, is already full of holes. I was just working around those holes to form a coherent story/theory via all the links

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Old 03-02-2012, 06:16 AM   #15
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I like this theory. Makes some sense.

What I really like about it is that it puts a sort of evolution line to Mew. Ditto being the shitting pre-evo, Mew being the (above?)average middle and Mewtwo being the final stage evo.

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Old 03-02-2012, 03:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Arcadia View Post
1. Mew has never been confirmed to be the common ancestor of most Pokemon. That is purely in-universe speculation by scientists as a result of Mew's immensely wide movepool. All Gen 1 Pokemon being its descendants is also a load of shit, as Porygon, Grimer, and Voltorb all came into existence via human actions. As for coming from space, lol no. Mew has been explicitly stated as a Pokemon originating from South America once thought to be extinct.
2. Team Rocket was never involved with Mewtwo in the games. It was all Fuji's, Blaine's, and other misc. scientists' work. Any connection between the two is just something the anime invented for the sake of M01's plot.

Lrn2 Pokemon. Now I remember why I never come to this section.
People be goin Arcanine over imaginary monsters

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Old 03-03-2012, 12:16 AM   #17
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The diaries contradict Mew being the ancestor of all Pokemon... sort of. Because by the time they discovered Mew, they already knew of other pokemon.

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Old 03-03-2012, 02:04 AM   #18
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Well it's kinda like science tells us. The time we discover something isn't the time it starts existing. It's just the time we discovered its existence. Like gravity. We'd only recently discovered it, but it's been around for eons; since the beginning of time.

While they discovered Mew, it was only a fossil. They did not have an actual Mew, which is why they attempted to clone it using said artifact instead, and which is why it was still considered a myth until the clone was a success.

The main rub is that the year those events took place isn't stated. The diaries only tell us the day and month. Though Mew's discovery isn't exactly its point of origin anyway. Actually, what's more interesting is this information about Mew:

Quote:
Trademark
  • Mew (then spelled ミュー, not ミュウ) was the first Pokémon trademark ever registered (granted on March 31, 1994, registration number 2636685 part 12), before even Pocket Monsters (ポケットモンスター), which was granted on December 26, 1997.
  • Mew is also the first Pokémon trademark ever applied for; the application was submitted on May 9, 1990, application number 平2-51989; before even Pocket Monsters, which was submitted September 11, 1995.
Mew originated before all the other Pokemon, even in real life. It existed before Pocket Monsters did.

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Old 03-03-2012, 01:44 PM   #19
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Only you, Justin. Really good thread man.

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Old 03-03-2012, 04:49 PM   #20
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That Ascension video... it was so sad. But it would have made the first movie make more sense, like the author said. That might be one of the reasons why Mewtwo turned out so violent.
(sigh) When I think of that story compared to the anime now... damn they had a good thing going. Would it really have been so bad for them to include that scene in the movie and make it PG?

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