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Old 11-04-2011, 12:07 AM   #1
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Default [Greater Debate] Itachi vs. Nagato (Open For Voting!)

Itachi vs. Nagato


Location:

Sannin Battlefield.

Distance:
Fifteen metres.

State of mind:
In-character.

Knowledge:
Manga.

Restrictions:
Kuchiyose: Gedō Mazō and Shisui's eye.

Special Conditions:
Both fighters are in good health; Itachi doesn't suffer from his illness and Nagato is as he was after absorbing Kirābī's chakra. Itachi's eye-sight is perfect.

__________________________

Team Itachi:
Akatsuki no Tensei
Komnenos
Strategoob

Team Nagato:
Ace
Empathy
Scorpion

Adjudicators:
Atlantic Storm
Thunder

__________________________

*For more information regarding the rules and guidelines, see this post. All discussion of the debate should be done here; please avoid spamming this thread.



Last edited by Thunder; 02-16-2012 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Update
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:08 AM   #2
Daenerys Stormborn
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The Greater Debate: Itachi vs Nagato

Opening Speech by Akatsuki no Tenshi


"Only a Sharingan user with the same blood as me can defeat me."

Introduction

Welcome to the Greater Debate! Before getting started, I'd like to briefly thank my teammates, the opposing team, the judges, and the voters. I'm sure all of you will make this a memorable event.

The matchup in question for this incarnation of the Great Debate is Itachi vs Nagato. While Nagato is certainly a powerful opponent, we believe that Itachi would be the clear victor in such a contest. In this speech, I will support this assertion by discussing Itachi's prowess with the Mangekyou Sharingan, his skill in other ninjutsu and genjutsu, his taijutsu capabilities, and the tactics he would use to overwhelm Nagato's own powers.

Hype

Some of the most skilled and powerful shinobi in the manga have shown respect for Itachi's capabilities. Tobi stated that if Itachi had known about his intangibility, he would be dead, and also that Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he'd wanted to. Danzou praised not only Itachi's ideology, but also his genjutsu prowess, calling Sasuke's impressive illusions "as far below him as the land is below the sky." Orochimaru's successor Kabuto claimed that Itachi was on "another level" from the other Edo Tenseis--who include Kages and other Akatsuki members.

The Mangekyou Sharingan

The most powerful weapon in Itachi's arsenal, the Mangekyou Sharingan affords the user three different jutsu, each of which is a "game-breaker" in its own right.

Tsukiyomi

The Mangekyou's genjutsu can be used as a means of either physical or psychological torture. Tsukiyomi is so harrowing that it completely incapacitated even Hatake Kakashi. While he used physical torture in that case, he chose to inflict psychological trauma on Sasuke, and could use his considerable intelligence to gauge which tactic would be more effective against Nagato.

An additional element to consider here is that, while Nagato possesses a doujutsu of his own, it clearly doesn't grant him genjutsu immunity, since he was captured by Magen: Gamarinsho. Thus, he should be just as vulnerable to Tsukiyomi as the doujutsu user Kakashi was.

Amaterasu

Like Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu takes effect in an instant--Nagato himself was unable to react to it until it had already taken hold. As if this weren't dangerous enough, the flames of Amaterasu can spread.

Amaterasu is even more deadly because Itachi doesn't need to stand still to cast it. On the contrary, he cast it while running while escaping Jiraiya's "inescapable" Toad Stomach.

The nature of Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu presents an additional danger for Nagato. The best way to determine that Amaterasu is about to be cast is to look for the blood-tear from Itachi's left eye. However, this would require looking at Itachi's eye, making Nagato vulnerable to Tsukiyomi. Conversely, avoiding eye contact is the only way to make oneself safe from Tsukiyomi, but this makes it much harder to predict an impending Amaterasu. Even if Nagato sensed the chakra buildup preceding Amaterasu, he would still need to make eye contact to determine precisely when Amaterasu is going to be cast.

Susano'o

The final Mangekyou jutsu is perhaps the most potent, as it provides both offense and defense. According to the Databook, the Yata no Kagami can change its chakra type to perfectly counter any ninjutsu used against it. Itachi has also shown himself capable of erecting Susano'o at astonishing speed.

Beyond this, Susano'o also possesses two other legendary treasures: the Sword of Totsuka and the Yasaka no Magatama. The Sword of Totsuka seals everything it touches into an eternal genjutsu. Given that the Sword is presumably made of chakra, one might assume that it would be useless in the face of Nagato's Hungry Ghost Realm ability. The manga says otherwise, however: when Nagato was pierced by the Sword, he was unable to absorb it. The Magatama, meanwhile, is clearly meant to be a long-range attack, and helped to stop Nagato's Chibaku Tensei.

Other Ninjutsu

Katons

In addition to Amaterasu, Itachi can muster two other katons. The Uchiha Clan's signature ninjutsu, Katon: Gokakyu, is particularly notable due to its size, which allows it to block LOS. This gives Itachi the opportunity to carry out bunshin feints or other trickery.

Katon: Housenka Tsumabeni may be less impressive than Gokakyu, but it takes advantage of Itachi's superb weapon mastery, and also seems to be a very quick attack. In addition, Nagato's immediate reaction to such a jutsu would most likely be to absorb the flames, which would result in his being pierced by the shuriken concealed within them.

Bunshins

Itachi has shown us two unique variants on that old standby, Kage Bunshin. First is Karasu Bunshin, which has a major advantage for Itachi in that it requires less chakra than the standard Kage Bunshin, and which can also discorporate into its component crows. Second is the Exploding Bunshin, which is self-explanatory.

Itachi's bunshinjutsu is especially potent when combined with distractions or LOS-blockers. As described above, we've seen Itachi use ninjutsu as a cover for a bunshin feint; this tactic becomes even more dangerous when the bunshin in question can cast genjutsu or blow up in the opponent's face.

Other Genjutsu

As mentioned above, one of the advantages of Itachi's Karasu Bunshin is that it can discorporate into individual crows. What makes this property even more powerful is that some of the crows have Sharingan of their own, and thus can cast genjutsu. While avoiding Itachi's single pair of eyes is possible, avoiding all the eyes of a flock of crows that's swarming all around the opponent would be extraordinarily difficult to do.

Even basic Sharingan genjutsu is deadly in Itachi's hands. Naruto, with jinchuuriki levels of chakra, was unable to break Itachi's base genjutsu by perturbing his own chakra. The same encounter shows Itachi to be adept at psychological manipulation through genjutsu: he showed Naruto visions of people he cared about saying that they were disappointed in him, correctly assessing Naruto's personality to calculate what would hurt him most. Agains an opponent like Nagato, who has suffered great emotional trauma in the past, such a tactic would be highly effective.

In addition, his eyes are not the only tools Itachi can use to cast genjutsu. With Utakata, he can cast genjutsu with his fingers as well. With no knowledge on this technique, Nagato will probably look at Itachi's hands in order to see what seals he's making--and in so doing, will insure that he gets caught in an illusion.

Nor does Itachi need to rely on "flashy" genjutsu to destroy his opponent. As we saw in the Sasuke vs Danzou fight, even a subtle genjutsu can turn the tide of a battle--and even a doujutsu doesn't provide protection against a genjutsu cast by a Mangekyou master. He could even trick Nagato into destroying himself, similar to the strategy he used when fighting Deidara.

Finally, the incident in which he cut off Orochimaru's hand showed that he can still move even while participating in a genjutsu. Thus, even if Nagato does manage to break through the genjutsu, he will emerge from the illusion only to find that Itachi has already seized the initiative and is probably about to kill him with one of the many other moves in his arsenal.

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Old 11-04-2011, 12:09 AM   #3
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Taijutsu

Speed

One of Itachi's major advantages in a taijutsu contest is his remarkable speed. He was able to keep up with Rikudou Mode Naruto and Killer Bee in close-quarters combat, and made handseals so fast that even Kakashi's Sharingan wasn't able to follow them. Additionally, he conjured a Kage Bunshin in the middle of his rapid-fire shuriken exchange with Sasuke, a feat that astonished the younger Uchiha. Finally, when fighting Nagato, he grabbed Naruto and Bee, blinded Nagato's summons, and cut off Nagato's arm, all in one fluid movement.

Weapon Usage

From a young age, Itachi excelled at the use of kunai and shuriken. Even before the Massacre, we saw him hit targets that were in his blind spot, and during his final battle with Sasuke, he threw shuriken at blinding speed. He also casually destroyed two of Naruto's Kage Bunshin. And it's not only targets in his own blind spot that he can hit: during his fight with Edo Nagato, we saw him negate Nagato's shared vision with his summons by attacking their blind spots.

Intelligence

The Databook gives Itachi a genius-level Intelligence score of 5, and this has been backed up by feats. For example, in the heat of battle, he analyzed Nagato's Chibaku Tensei and devised a way to counter it.

Stamina

Many people consider Itachi's stamina to be his greatest weakness, but in fact he's capable of using a sequence of powerful jutsu in quick succession. In his final battle against his brother, Itachi used several ordinary genjutsu, Kage Bunshin, Tsukiyomi, Gokakyu (twice), Amaterasu (twice), and Susano'o (twice). During his fight against Naruto and Bee (and later Nagato as well), he used Katon: Gokakyu, Kage Bunshin, Katon: Housenka Tsumabeni, Sharingan genjutsu, Koto Amatsukami, Amaterasu (three times), and Susano'o. And in this second instance, he wasn't even tired afterward--a feat that was not due solely to his undead nature, as the Nidaime Mizukage's body was weakened after he used Jokey Boy, and Nagato had to absorb chakra from Bee and Naruto to restore his body.

Counters to Nagato's Abilities

Much of this will be discussed by our later speakers, so I will simply address a few points briefly.

Even without having the Six Paths in separate bodies, Nagato can still take advantage of the Rinnegan's shared vision by bringing Animal Realm's summons onto the field. However, Itachi's fight with the Edo Tensei Nagato showed that he can negate this advantage by blinding the summons with simple projectile weapons.

Deva Path's powers, collectively, are probably the most powerful weapons Nagato possesses. But these too can be countered by Itachi. We've seen that Susano'o is capable of grabbing people, which means that it should be able to hold onto Itachi and anchor him against Bansho Tenin and even Chibaku Tensei's gravitational pull.

Aside from Deva, Asura Path is probably the most destructive of Nagato's "avatars". However, the defense of Susano'o will stop missiles and lasers cold.

Conclusion

Nagato is a formidable opponent, but Itachi's Mangekyou jutsu, mastery of genjutsu, speed, and intelligence grant him clear superiority. He can protect himself from Nagato's attacks while overpowering Nagato's own defenses. The Rinnegan may be "greater" than the Sharingan in terms of sheer power, but sheer power isn't all that matters in a contest between ninja. In addition to his own overwhelming puissance, Itachi also possesses exceptional skill--the skill of a man who graduated from the Academy at 7, was promoted to Chuunin at 10, was granted captaincy of an ANBU squad at 13, and defeated a Sannin with ease in his early teens. This skill will give Itachi the edge against Nagato, and we believe that he would emerge victorious if the two of them were to fight.

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Old 11-04-2011, 04:43 AM   #4
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Opening Speech by Ace

Opening

Prior to my team’s opening argument, I’d like to pay thanks to the people that organized this event. Thanks to the mod’s who are regulating the event, as well as my teammates who were spectacular throughout the entire process of putting together our argument. I’d also like to thank our judges, who don’t have the easiest job. And of course, I’d like to thank Team Itachi for taking the time to debate this subject with us. This is my first well thought out post in a very long time here in the Battledome. I haven’t been as active as my teammates have in the last couple of months, so when Strategos recommended I be part of team Nagato, I took the chance.

After the second part of Naruto commenced, it was clear that the sharingan became the dominant bloodline ability and doujutsu in the manga. So it was only natural that the introduction of the rinnegan spurred debate that lasts even to this very day. The debate naturally extended to Nagato and Itachi, with both fandoms vigorously defending one side, while bans were thrown around left and right. It’s been interesting to say the least.
I suppose it was time to have a formal discussion regarding this topic.



Introduction
Interpretation of key manga facts is always a touchy way to approach an argument. So rather than explaining how I think the fight would play out, the main purpose of this argument is to elaborate on the massive advantages that Nagato has that would eventually lead to his success. I find this to be the more efficient way of doing things as debating what each character would do in their respective mind sets derails what we believe to be the more logical way of approaching things.

Character Knowledge
Both characters have extensive knowledge regarding one another. The sharingan is famed for it’s illusionary techniques and Itachi’s reputation as one of the greatest genjutsu users is known to many characters. This is something that is undoubtedly known to Nagato himself. Manga knowledge also plays a large role in his insight regarding Itachi’s feats. On the flip side, Nagato’s techniques and abilities happen to be known to Itachi via manga knowledge from the last confrontation between the two said characters.
However, while both respective shinobi happen to have large intelligence on one another, Itachi's techniques for the most part are much more easy to counter than Nagato's. The lack of counter tools Itachi has to large AOE abilities, while simultaneously being countered himself, is the massive advantage I referred to earlier. Of course, this will be elaborated later on in this same post.


Nagato's Offense


While defensive measure are important and will be taken by Nagato, it is very important to elaborate on his offensive capabilities. Even compared to Uchiha Madara, Nagato's abilities are the most destructive in the manga. Countering Itachi's techniques is a large role in winning this fight, but the ability to put Itachi down is the most important factor. Nagato's summons and his shinrai tensei's have enough variation to ultimately put Itachi down. The next couple of subheading's will be in regards to his many offensive fighting styles.

Nagato's Mobility and his Summon's

The summons Nagato possesses are his most valued asset in this fight. As stated in the manga, don't fight an Uchiha 1v1. This is not something Nagato has to worry about. Of course, he will attempt to avoid eye contact. His summons however, have the ability to compensate for his loss of eye contact through linked vision. And without being distracted in this scenario, the summons he places on the battlefield will all be focused on a single target, completely negating any speed advantages Itachi would ultimately have over Nagato.

The Cerebrus is subject to Amaterasu after Itachi figures out how to counter it. However, the only logical way would be Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi or Susano'o. All are Mangekyou Sharingan related, and all of which dispense a very large amount of chakra. Something Nagato has in abundance and spared little to summon Cerebrus in the first place.

So while Nagato's mobility is limited, his ability to compensate is completely viable. Should he choose to he can also manage to move himself around with invisibility via Chameleon or flying with a giant bird summon.

Shinrai Tensei
The force behind a shinrai tensei isn't something to be merely shrugged off. The power behind a single shinrai tensei had the ability to lift three giant toad frogs, who were able to physically fight off giant summons, while casually throwing them out of the leaf village from it's epicentre. They all broke their bones in the process. Itachi's body itself isn't particularly tough nor is it on the level of the Raikage and his family. If he manages to take a hit from a single full powered shinrai tensei, there's a very good chance it could incapacitate him in the process.
Shinrai Tensei is also a complete counter to Susano'o. Susno'o does have the ability to anchor it's user to the ground, although the extent to which it can resist shinrai tensei is questionable. In any sense, this would be a pointless task to carry out. Even if the user is anchored, they would still be subject to the full force of the blow.

Shinrai Tensei remains to be Nagato's greatest combative tool. The ability to counter shinrai tensei is not something Itachi can easily carry out. Susano'o is not something he would use pointlessly as it's very physically demanding, while shinrai tensei on the level of which I just pointed out, has no physical effects on the user. Itachi also has no summons to tank the blow for him. He's essentially a sitting duck for the technique itself. And mind you, Nagato's techniques are even stronger than Pain's. The force behind Nagato's shinrai tensei is a scary thought to imagine.

Bansho Tenin

Bansho Tenin is a very unique ability in that it can't be placed in a very distinctive category. It's main usage would be to draw Itachi out for offensive purposes, but it can also be used on the surrounding environment to help him in said situation he's placed in. It can be used defensively as well to pull summons out of harms way. It's also entirely possible that instead of using Bansho Tenin on a summon, Nagato uses it on Susano'o itself.

Bansho Tenin is one of those situation based techniques that comes in handy every now and then, and it's mechanics are simply Shinrai Tensei's in reverse. It's a very effective technique to conter Susano'o with.

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Old 11-04-2011, 05:29 AM   #5
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Chou Shinrai Tensei
It's doubtful this technique would be used in the fight. However, if it is, it would have the same effects of shinrai tensei on a much larger scale. Again, if it's used, Itachi has absolutely 0 counters other than his last resort Susano'o technique. The technique functions in the same manner as Shinrai Tensei, just on a larger scale. Hence "chou" shinrai tensei.

Chibaku Tensei
It may be a a slightly different opinion than many posters on this forum, but our team believes that Chibaku Tensei is not needed and it's usage would be absolute overkill. It will be elaborated on in the defensive section, but the abilities Nagato has are large counters to Itachi's Susano'o.
However, if necessary, Chibaku Tensei will be used to completely subdue Itachi. The force behind the technique is enough to completely crush Itachi should it gain enough mass, even with Susano'o activated. Recent chapters have shown that Madara was completely blown to pieces even with Susano'o activated, in the face of a large destructive meteor. And while Itachi does have his mirror, it's simply one sided. It's not a full coverage of Susano'o.

It is possible to argue that Itachi has counters to Shinrai Tensei, although I would respectfully disagree. However, he has absolutely 0 answers for this technique.

As for Itachi's ranged attacked, the room for speculation is too high. Unless Team Itachi manages to come up with a quantified analysis on how strong said technique is and how much it contributed to the destruction of the chibaku tensei he faced, the assumption that he would be crushed in the process is the most logical conclusion to draw in this situation.

Chibaku Tensei is an endgame technique which is not something you can simply shield yourself from or run away from. It's the most destructive technique in the manga, even more so than Madara's meteors.



Nagato's Defense

Nagato's body is frail and therefore needs several forms of defensive measures to protect himself. Of course, one of the ways is by shielding himself with summons. Said summons can also be used aggresively, distracting Itachi from Nagato, ultimately protecting himself. But he also has several techniques that can be used should he be caught out. The next couple of subheadings will deal with his defensive techniques, as well as his counters to some of Itachi's more annoying abilities.

Shinrai Tensei

Shinrai Tensei isn't just for offensive purposes as most people realize. It's a very effective form of defense. Basically, Shinrai Tensei has the ability to repel any tangible objects being thrown his way. It's possibly one of the most basic forms of defense in the manga. It's also one of the most effective.
Repel anything coming your way. The versatility of Shinrai Tensei is something that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Chakra Absorption

Sometimes I wonder if this technique was a backup plan for a failed Shinrai Tensei. Chakra absorption can absorb any form of ninjutsu that is physically harmful to Nagato should it not be repelled by Shinrai Tensei. This makes basically every non-genjutsu related technique in Itachi's arsenal completely useless. His reliance on his Mangekyou Sharingan becomes even more heavy. And with that his chakra usage becomes even more of a problem. Not only does it completely render physical ninjutsu useless, it also forces Itachi to bring out his big guns early.

Countering Genjutsu and Tsukiyomi
Itachi's genjutsu is possibly the best in the manga. His use of it is very versatile and very lethal if landed. However, contrary to popular belief, it is not impossible to completely counter genjutsu related techniques. Of course, the first thing would be to avoid eye contact. A simple task that Nagato could accomplish by using constant animal summons as a way to compensate for the reduction in his visual field. If the animals are subject to genjutsu, Nagato is not. After all, if shared senses hindered Nagato in any way, the frog song would have taken him out as well after his path's managed to hear it themselves. The sheer amount of summons makes it unlikely that Itachi can cut off every single form of vision Nagato manages to set up with out being spotted himself and attacked.

However, one has to address the issue of whether or not Nagato can manage to break himself free of genjutsu should it catch him in the first place. Our stance is clear. He can.
Recent revelations have shown that Rinnegan to be the most evolved form of the Sharingan. And while it is true that Nagato's rinnegan did not progress through each stage of the sharingan as Madara's had, I find this to be a moot point. The only difference between Madara's Rinnegan and Nagato's is the ability to switch between sharingan related techniques and rinnegan related ones. The basic genjutsu defense of the rinnegan should be equal or greater to that of the sharingan. His ability to break out of genjutsu is entirely possible, although the chances of him getting caught are reduced severely by his fighting style.

One most also note that Nagato himself is proficient at genjutsu use. He put mind seal barriers on ninja's so advanced it stumped Konoha's intterogattors. And said jutsu was not just used on one or two ninja. Nagato managed to place information blocking genjutsu on an entire village of ninja, without ever making face to face contact with any of them.



Countering Amaterasu

This was a much easier topic to cover than Tsukiyomi. Before I begin I'd like to point out the fact that Nagato, in his confrontation with Naruto and Bee, managed to feel Amaterasu's pressure without even looking at Itachi's eyes. This works perfectly with the strategy of avoiding eye contact.
Of course, Amaterasu travels extremely fast. But the manga has already provided a counter to Amaterasu, which is shinrai tensei. He can also use his jutsu absorption ability to make sure the technique itself ceases to affect him. Amaterasu is much less a factor on Nagato and in the most likely case would simply be used to counter to large summons placed on the battlefield.





Quick Conclusion
Itachi's arsenal is impressive, but the amount of AOE abilities, as well as the amount of units on the battlefield severely limits his ability to commit to his fighting style. His chakra reserves would not be able to handle the amount of times he needs to resort to his Mangekyou Sharingan, and the counters he faces are too viable for him to properly address. His victory is dependent on his ability to spam large amounts of AOE jutsu, via Amaterasu and Susano'o in order to win the fight. Mainly because his genjutsu related techniques are completely countered in the face of more than one unit on the battlefield.

Itachi's victory is improbably due to one reason. All of his base techniques are completely countered in every sense. His base genjutsu's aren't enough to subdue Nagato, if they should even connect. The only abilities he has to affect Nagato are his mangekyou sharingan related techniques.
Basically, Nagato shut's down his only forms of offense, making him resort to defensive measures. Something he cannot sustain given the amount of destructive capability behind Nagato's abilities.

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Old 11-11-2011, 02:47 AM   #6
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Thanks you for reading. I have concisely synthesized the most effective arguments mentioned by the first speaker for your consideration. And for Team Nagato's third speaker to address in the rebuttal phase.

Tools

The Rinnegan has been portrayed as a stronger dōjutsu than the Mangekyō Sharingan. The author has, however, made it explicit that the skill with dōjutsu can trump a disparity in the level of dōjutsu. Is Itachi superior to Nagato in the usage of his eye techniques?

Usage

Nagato cannot walk, but his true weakness is his inactive fighting style. Nagato frequently attacked with one power or body at a time while he stood and observed his opponents. There is a sharp contrast in the offense he could present, and the offense he does present. Fortunately for my case, Itachi's opening maneuvers against Nagato and Orochimaru and Deidara demonstrate that Itachi is an incredibly proactive combatant when fighting enemies of Konoha.

Aptitude

Itachi once boasted that only [Tobi] could defeat his genjutsu. Why exclude Nagato? Perhaps because superior aptitude is a factor in breaking Itachi's genjutsu, and Itachi possessed legendary aptitude? Itachi did show that he could layer genjutsu that required multiple breaks for even dōjutsu. Moreover, genjutsu frequently targets emotional vulnerabilities to make genjutsu more difficult to break. Was Nagato emotionally stable enough to defeat Itachi's genjutsu without providing Itachi a window of opportunity?

Tactics

In addition to genjutsu trickery that could potentially induce self-harm, Itachi has immense bunshin speed that he can use in conjunction with finding blindspots in Rinnegan vision to commence powerful ninjutsu from. For example, Kirābī did not react to Itachi's shunshin before Nagato warned him. How is this possible when Kirābī saved the Raikage from Hiraishin? Because Itachi blocked vision with his katon to slow down his reaction. This is the exact same ambush tactic that Itachi used repeatedly against Nagato to amputate both of his arms and seal him. It is doable with Amaterasu, which Itachi has synced with his vast agility.

Duality

Itachi is dangerous. Susano'o is dangerous. Posters fail to realize that they are separate entities that fight simultaneously. Using genjutsu or Amaterasu in conjunction with Susano'o would compound the drain on Itachi's stamina, but it would be immediately effective, and Itachi has fortunately demonstrated exceptional stamina as an Edo. He used a third Amaterasu on his crow after sealing Nagato without appearing fatigued, whereas Edo Kages have become physically exhausted from their jutsu that aren't giant jinchūriki-like chakra cloaks.

Items

The spiritual items Itachi possesses were described by Zetsu as being distinct from Susano'o. They did not seem to be absorbable, but Nagato may not have been able to react only ten or so meters outside of the dust cloud. If so, this would leave Nagato with only Deva Path, which is his most frequent defensive and offensive maneuver - one that possesses a cool down period that leaves the immobile Nagato entirely vulnerable to the Totsuka held by Susano'o or the kunai held by Itachi.

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Old 11-11-2011, 02:49 AM   #7
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In-Depth Analysis

Opening
Before my Team’s In-Depth Analysis, I would like to thank the individuals who organized this Greater Debate, my remarkable Teammates, the opposing Team, the Judges, and the Spectators. It’s an honor to be part of this event, and this is the first one for me. Arguing for Nagato in the Battle-dome is something I greatly enjoy, and I hope my input here will aid in my Team in our road to victory. With that aside, let’s get started.

* All areas italicized and in blue are part of our Opening Speech by Ace.

Nagato's Offense

While defensive measures are important and will be taken by Nagato, it is very important to elaborate on his offensive capabilities. Even compared to Uchiha Madara, Nagato's abilities are the most destructive in the manga. Countering Itachi's techniques is a large role in winning this fight, but the ability to put Itachi down is the most important factor. Nagato's summons and his Shinra Tensei have enough variation to ultimately put Itachi down. The next couple of Subheadings will be in regards to his many offensive fighting styles.

Nagato’s main offense consists of four of the six main powers of the Rinnegan. This is the power of Tendō, Shuradō, Chikushōdo, and Ningendō. Each of these abilities grants the user an extremely powerful offensive.

Tendō’s offensive abilities lie in its main technique, Shinra Tensei. The power of Shinra Tensei can vary from simply launching a nail at high speeds towards a target, to the point of annihilating an entire Hidden Village. Shinra Tensei has been depicted to be an instantaneous technique, and its only weakness being the five second interval created after each use of the jutsu. This technique will be the most effective in defeating Itachi, and will be the main reason for Nagato’s victory.

The power Shuradō is almost entirely offense in its own. It allows the user to summon mechanized armor upon himself, and modify it to suite different situations. The user can produce a very deadly chainsaw-like tail, as well as six extra arms. These arms can then be modified into individual laser cannons, open to reveal a flotilla of missiles, or launch at high speeds at a target. The user can modify his/her own head into a deadly laser cannon, capable of leveling an entire city block. Although Shuradō isn’t strong enough to break through Susano’o, it will still effectively put Itachi on the defensive, and in many cases save Nagato from attacks such as shuriken techniques and possibly Amaterasu.

Chikushōdō grants the user the ability to summon an armada of powerful animals. These boss summons not only serve the Rinnegan user in overwhelming their target, but also provide linked-vision for their Summoner. Although not as potent as the previous two abilities, Chikushōdō has proved more than useful for Nagato in battle, and in this fight it will be of utter importance.

Ningendō’s main ability is soul removal. The potency if this technique comes from the fact that its prerequisites are simply touching the intended target of the soul extraction. And as you’ve probably assumed, once the extraction is complete, the target is done for. In combination with Banshō Ten’in, this technique becomes very lethal.

With these four abilities used offensively, even a single opening can be fatal for Itachi. To protect himself from these techniques, primarily those of Tendō and Shuradō, using Susano’o is imperative. However, these techniques can be pretty much spammed by Nagato, whilst maintaining Susano’o is a fairly grim task on Itachi’s part.

Nagato's Mobility and his Summons

The summons Nagato possesses are his most valued asset in this fight. As stated in the manga, don't fight an Uchiha 1v1. This is not something Nagato has to worry about. Of course, he will attempt to avoid eye contact. However, his summoned creatures have the ability to compensate for his loss of eye contact through linked vision. And without being distracted in this scenario, the summons he places on the battlefield will all be focused on a single target, completely negating any speed advantages Itachi would ultimately have over Nagato.

In the manga, Itachi was capable of blinding the Jigakudō's King of Hell and the chameleon summon, allowing him to sever Nagato's arms before he could activate Gakidō. However, one must take into account the following advantages Itachi had there which he lacks here:
- Nagato was controlled like a puppet by Kabuto, who conveniently forgot Itachi's very presence in the battle.
- The chameleon summons single Rinnegan was preoccupied with two very powerful opponents, rendering it incapable of dodging Itachi's shuriken techniques as Kabuto stated. The King of Hell is immobile entirely, so dodging the shuriken was out of its reach as well.
- Nagato himself and Jigakudō’s King of Hell were facing in the opposite direction of where Itachi attacked from.

And to add to this list, Nagato possesses knowledge on Itachi’s mastery over the shuriken techniques and his analytical abilities. It’s highly unlikely Nagato’s summons will fall victim to blinding, and with so many pairs of linked Rinnegan, there are virtually no blind-spots for Itachi to take advantage of.

The Cerebrus is subject to Amaterasu after Itachi figures out how to counter it. However, the only logical way would be Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, or Susano'o. All are Mangekyou Sharingan related, and all of which dispense a very large amount of chakra. Something Nagato has in abundance and spared little to summon Cerebrus in the first place.

Despite the likely inevitable end of the Cerberus summon, its life on the battlefield can be prolonged by keeping it in its separated state. Itachi is very much still capable of defeating it by dragging his Amaterasu across to each dog, though this will even further take a toll on his chakra as well as his body, and will leave him open to Nagato’s attacks while using the technique. Nagato himself can also keep the Cerberus alive by countering Amaterasu via a defensive summon(s). Amaterasu seems like Itachi’s only definite solution to defeating this summon, aside from killing Nagato himself. And giving up a single summon, albeit the strongest one, for a chakra consuming Mangekyō Sharingan technique seems like a decent trade for Nagato.

So while Nagato's mobility is limited, his ability to compensate is completely viable. Should he choose to he can also manage to move himself around with invisibility via Chameleon or flying with a giant bird summon.

It can also be noted that Nagato can revive his summons via Jigakudō in a case that they are killed, as seen with the Chameleon summon, which was killed by the Ni Dai Sennin in battle prior to the war. Using Jigakudō’s ability seems to be very cheap in chakra consumption, while in turn killing the summons will certainly drain Itachi to a degree. This way, Nagato will always have some form of mobility and range during the battle, and will in turn assist him in keeping the pace of the fight.

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Old 11-11-2011, 02:53 AM   #8
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Shinra Tensei

The force behind a Shinra Tensei isn't something to be merely shrugged off. The power behind a single Shinra Tensei had the ability to lift three giant toad frogs, whom were able to physically fight off giant summons, while casually throwing them out of the leaf village from its epicenter. They all broke their bones in the process. Itachi's body itself isn't particularly tough nor is it on the level of the Raikage and his family. If he manages to take a hit from a single full powered Shinra Tensei, there's a very good chance it could incapacitate him in the process.

The Shinra Tensei used on the three Mountain Toads was from dead body equipped with Tendō used at a large distance from Nagato’s location. When Nagato uses his own body for the abilities of Pain Rikudō, all the techniques’ speed and strength are to a higher degree. If Nagato puts enough force into his Shinra Tensei, he can very easily incapacitate Itachi and send him to the next zip-code.

Shinra Tensei is also a complete counter to Susano'o. Susano'o does have the ability to anchor it's user to the ground, although the extent to which it can resist Shinra Tensei is questionable. In any sense, this would be a pointless task to carry out. Even if the user is anchored, they would still be subject to the full force of the blow.

This is also with the assumption that Susano’o actually can counter Shinra Tensei by anchoring itself. Shinra Tensei has a unique Ninjutsu dispelling effect. It’s not far-fetched to say Nagato can dispel the technique entirely, and leave Itachi open to attacks from his summons.

Itachi’s Yata no Kagami seems like a viable counter to the force of Shinra Tensei; effectively counteracting it in the same way Naruto did in his six-tailed Kyūbi form and with Kage Bunshin. Though this cannot be known for certain, I will assume it can. Shinra Tensei should still have a deadly effect on the remaining areas of Susano’o, including Itachi. As seen when Pain used Shinra Tensei on Kakashi and Naruto, the ground behind the targets was destroyed as well. In Naruto’s case, despite resisting the force, the ground behind him was destroyed entirely. Essentially it should be the same when Nagato hits the Yata no Kagami with Shinra Tensei; with the Yata no Kagami resisting the force, the rest of Susano’o will dispel, and Itachi will be severely damaged, if not incapacitated.

Banshō Ten’in

Banshō Ten’in is a very unique ability in that it can't be placed in a very distinctive category. Its main usage would be to draw Itachi out for offensive purposes, but it can also be used on the surrounding environment to help him in said situation he's placed in. It can be used defensively as well to pull summons out of harm’s way. It's also entirely possible that instead of using Banshō Ten’in on a summon, Nagato uses it on Susano'o itself.

Banshō Ten’in can indeed be the decisive factor in this match-up. If Itachi at any point lowers his guard and is drawn into Nagato’s grasp, he is practically defeated. Unless Susano’o is in its armored form, it will not help him at a close distance due to Gakidō, and his shuriken techniques can swatted aside and/or blocked by Shuradō’s arms and tail. As seen with the many instances Banshō Ten’in was used, the victims were unable to form hand-seals, and were forced to counter by other means, if any.

Banshō Ten’in is one of those situation based techniques that comes in handy every now and then, and its mechanics are simply Shinra Tensei in reverse. It's a very effective technique to counter Susano'o with.

From what we’ve seen in Nagato’s battle against Kakashi and Naruto, he can select individual targets to use Tendō’s abilities on. In one instance, Shuradō is standing right in front of Tendō’s line-of-sight, yet Tendō was able to pull in only Kakashi with Banshō Ten’in. Another instance would be when he pulls the nail out of the wooden board, and only the nail. In his fight with Naruto, he used Shinra Tensei in the direction of Naruto and Gakidō, yet only Naruto was affected, despite being directly on top of Pain’s corpse. With this in mind, Nagato should be able to draw Itachi out of his Susano’o, and into his Gakidō master-lock, Ningendō, or Shuradō’s binding and arm cannon combination. If need be, Nagato can have his summons temporarily immobilize Susano’o. Itachi’s best bet in this situation would be to have Susano’o grab him as he’s pulled out. However, this will be near impossible if Susano’o is in its armored state, as it is wielding its two Legendary Treasures in both arms.

Chibaku Tensei

It may be a slightly different opinion than many posters on this forum, but our Team believes that Chibaku Tensei is not needed and its usage would be absolute overkill. It will be elaborated on in the defensive section, but the abilities Nagato has are large counters to Itachi's Susano'o.

However, if necessary, Chibaku Tensei will be used to completely subdue Itachi. The force behind the technique is enough to completely crush Itachi should it gain enough mass, even with Susano'o activated. Recent chapters have shown that Madara was completely blown to pieces even with Susano'o activated, in the face of a large destructive meteor. And while Itachi does have his mirror, it's simply one sided. It's not a full coverage of Susano'o.
As for Itachi's ranged attack, the room for speculation is too high. Unless Team Itachi manages to come up with a quantified analysis on how strong said technique is and how much it contributed to the destruction of the Chibaku Tensei he faced, the assumption that he would be crushed in the process is the most logical conclusion to draw in this situation.
Chibaku Tensei is an endgame technique which is not something you can simply shield yourself from or run away from. It's the most destructive technique in the manga, even more so than Madara's meteors.


Itachi’s only two possible answers to Chibaku Tensei are the Yasaka no Magatama and Amaterasu. However, both techniques are certainly not enough to stop the core from drawing Itachi inside and crushing him. The Yasaka no Magatama lacks any sort of destructive feats, and there is no reason to say it is stronger than a six-tailed Bijūdama, which Chibaku Tensei took easily. And the Chibaku Tensei was formed from a dead corpse used at a distance from a heavily fatigued Nagato. I suppose one could argue that Yasaka no Magatama was portrayed as equals with the Hachibi Bijūdama and the Fūton: Rasenshuriken, however this is merely speculation. Also, each individual attack shouldn’t be enough to destroy the core anyway. Amaterasu is a very inconsistent technique. One day it burns quickly, the other slowly. But from the majority of occurrences, Amaterasu burns far too slowly, and the most it’ll accomplish is pulling Itachi into a burning sun. By the time the core is burnt, Itachi would have already been dealt with. And keep in mind that if he survives the attack, he would have exhausted a large amount of chakra maintaining Susano’o, for both staying alive in the miniature moon as well as survive the after debris that would be covered in black flames. Nagato on the other hand should still be in good shape to fight, considering his large and powerful chakras granted by being an Uzumaki.

Nagato's Defense

Nagato's body is frail and therefore needs several forms of defensive measures to protect himself. Of course, one of the ways is by shielding himself with summons. Said summons can also be used aggressively, distracting Itachi from Nagato, ultimately protecting himself. But he also has several techniques that can be used should he be caught out. The next couple of subheadings will deal with his defensive techniques, as well as his counters to some of Itachi's more annoying abilities.

Nagato’s main defense lies in the linked vision attribute gained from the eyes of his summons. Essentially giving him 360* vision, Nagato cannot be surprise attacked in almost all cases, and can see an attack coming a mile away. Even when blinded, say by Itachi’s Katon: Gōkakyū, the linked vision will still allow him to keep an eye on Itachi’s position and the state of his Susano’o. As Itachi knows of this major advantage on Nagato’s end, it is likely he’ll aim for slaughtering the summons early on. However, Nagato can simply keep the invisible chameleon summon at a distance from the battlefield and have it speculate the fight. And unlike the fight that occurred in the manga, Nagato has his complete arsenal of creatures at his leisure, and is entirely focused on one target, Itachi.

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Old 11-11-2011, 02:53 AM   #9
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Shinra Tensei

Shinra Tensei isn't just for offensive purposes as most people realize. It's a very effective form of defense. Basically, Shinra Tensei has the ability to repel any tangible objects being thrown his way. It's possibly one of the most basic forms of defense in the manga. It's also one of the most effective.
Repel anything coming your way. The versatility of Shinra Tensei is something that shouldn't be taken lightly.


Combined with its defensive properties, Nagato can vary the range of Shinra Tensei and have it simultaneously hit Itachi and damage him whilst repelling his attacks. Using the technique in this manor will keep Itachi from taking advantage of the five second interval after the Shinra Tensei, as this time period would be more used to recover from the hit.

Chakra Absorption

Sometimes I wonder if this technique was a backup plan for a failed Shinra Tensei. Chakra absorption can absorb any form of Ninjutsu that is physically harmful to Nagato should it not be repelled by Shinra Tensei. This makes basically every non-Genjutsu related technique in Itachi's arsenal completely useless. His reliance on his Mangekyou Sharingan becomes even heavier. And with that his chakra usage becomes even more of a problem. Not only does it completely render physical Ninjutsu useless, it also forces Itachi to bring out his big guns early.

With Gakidō in his Nagato’s repertoire, Itachi is significantly limited in his offense. He is practically restricted to Genjutsu, shuriken techniques, and his armored Susano’o, all of which can be countered. One of the most heated debates in Itachi vs. Pain/Nagato threads is whether or not Gakidō’s ability would allow Nagato to absorb Itachi’s Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami. Whether it can or cannot absorb the two Legendary Items will not exactly be the decisive factor in this fight, though it is still very important.

In Gakidō’s defense, I believe the two Legendary Items can be absorbed. We’ve seen Gakidō able to absorb even Natural Energy. Yes, Itachi’s weapons are stated to be spiritual. However, one must take into account that Susano’o, a chakra construct, is able to wield them. From this, it isn’t far-fetched to say that the items manifest in chakra form, making them physical, in which case allows the Totsuka no Tsurugi to physically pierce through a target. As seen with the Fuinjutsu: Shiki Fūjin, spiritual attacks do not cause any physical harm. Itachi’s weapons do, however.

Conversely, the items may actually be in spiritual form and won’t be subject to Gakidō’s technique. If the items cannot be absorbed, Nagato still has a way to combat them. The Rinnegan allows the user to see chakra, similar to the Sharingan. With this in mind, Nagato should be able to distinguish the Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami’s none chakra properties from the rest of Susano’o, and keep his Shinra Tensei on the ready, and stay out of Itachi's range via summons.

Countering Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi

Itachi's Genjutsu is possibly the best in the manga. His use of it is very versatile and very lethal if landed. However, contrary to popular belief, it is not impossible to completely counter Genjutsu related techniques. Of course, the first thing would be to avoid eye contact, a simple task that Nagato could accomplish by using constant animal summons as a way to compensate for the reduction in his visual field. If the animals are subject to Genjutsu, Nagato is not. After all, if shared senses hindered Nagato in any way, the frog song would have taken him out as well after his Paths managed to hear it themselves. The sheer amount of summons makes it unlikely that Itachi can cut off every single form of vision Nagato manages to set up without being spotted and attacked.

Another instance of Genjutsu not transferring through a “puppet” if you want to call it is when Edo Tensei Itachi was put under Koto-Amatsu-Kami. In this case, Kabuto was unaffected by the technique entirely. As we know, Kabuto does control his Edo Tensei in practically the same manner as Nagato does his dead corpses and summons. He hears and sees everything they do (and likely other senses as well), but he himself is unaffected entirely.

Even if Nagato is caught in Itachi’s Genjutsu, his linked vision will most definitely counter the illusion. From a different “angle” if you want to call it, he’ll be able to distinguish reality from illusion, and effectively ignore the illusion and proceed to counter whatever attack Itachi is cloaking.

Recent revelations have shown that Rinnegan to be the most evolved form of the Sharingan. And while it is true that Nagato's Rinnegan did not progress through each stage of the Sharingan as Madara's had, I find this to be a moot point. The only difference between Madara's Rinnegan and Nagato's is the ability to switch between Sharingan related techniques and Rinnegan related ones. The basic Genjutsu defense of the Rinnegan should be equal or greater to that of the Sharingan. His ability to break out of Genjutsu is entirely possible, although the chances of him getting caught are reduced severely by his fighting style.

With the Rinnegan being an evolved form of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, breaking out of Tsukuyomi should not be very difficult for Nagato. Sasuke was able to break the Genjutsu with the simplest form of the Sharingan combined with his skill. Nagato was stated to be a master of the Rinnegan, the most advanced form of the Sharingan.

One most also note that Nagato himself is proficient at Genjutsu use. He put mind seal barriers on ninja's so advanced it stumped Konoha's interrogators. And said jutsu was not just used on one or two ninja. Nagato managed to place information blocking Genjutsu on an entire village of ninja, without ever making face to face contact with any of them.

Nagato was also stated to be a master of the Yin Release due to his Rinnegan, which Genjutsu is a sub-category of.

Countering Amaterasu

This was a much easier topic to cover than Tsukiyomi. Before I begin I'd like to point out the fact that Nagato, in his confrontation with Naruto and Bee, managed to feel Amaterasu's pressure without even looking at Itachi's eyes. This works perfectly with the strategy of avoiding eye contact.

Of course, Amaterasu travels extremely fast. But the manga has already provided a counter to Amaterasu, which is Shinra Tensei. He can also use his jutsu absorption ability to make sure the technique itself ceases to affect him. Amaterasu is much less a factor on Nagato and in the most likely case would simply be used to counter to large summons placed on the battlefield.


Amaterasu is a very powerful technique on Itachi’s part, but its charge is what really gives the opponent the opening to exploit. The initial charge of the attack is relatively long, and as stated before, the “pressure” of Amaterasu can be sensed. Nagato can effectively counter the attack by placing a defensive summon in Itachi’s line-of-sight. He can also shoot a couple missiles with Shuradō, forcing Itachi on the defensive and simultaneously putting up a smoke-screen to block Itachi’s line-of-sight. Unlike the instance in the manga, Nagato is in full control of his body. Hence if Amaterasu hits him, he will immediately counter with either Shinra Tensei or Gakidō, well before the attack does any serious damage. If however, he does end up losing a limb or two, he can heal himself with a quick use of Jigakudō. It should also be noted that Nagato had to cover for Itachi with Shinra Tensei while he was charging Amaterasu, indicating that if Nagato gets a clean hit on Itachi, he may be able to temporarily stop Amaterasu.

Concluding the In-Depth Analysis

Nagato has a much higher chance of victory in this battle than Itachi does. He has swift counters to any and all of Itachi's techniques, whilst the same cannot be said the other way around. Nagato's techniques give him an overwhelmingly powerful offense, as well as a near unbreakable defense, all exhibit Nagato's superiority among these two powerful Dōjutsu users.

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Old 12-20-2011, 09:26 PM   #10
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The Greater Debate: Itachi versus Nagato

Team Itachi; Third Speaker: Komnenos


_________________________________________________

Preface

Welcome to the Greater Debate! My goal during this event is to refute the points presented by Team Nagato's Second Speaker; Scorpion. Before doing so, I would also like to thank everyone involved, and those taking the time to read.

Introduction

As I am simply rebutting Scorpion's points, my speech has not been organised as a typical essay. Instead, I have gathered relevant points made by the previous speech, and will respond to them on a case by case basis. In this manner, I will comprehensively point out the flaws in Team Nagato's stance.

The following sections cover Nagato's offensive abilities.


Supplemental Offensive Paths

Asura

Quote:
The power Shuradō is almost entirely offense in its own. It allows the user to summon mechanized armor upon himself, and modify it to suite different situations. The user can produce a very deadly chainsaw-like tail, as well as six extra arms. These arms can then be modified into individual laser cannons, open to reveal a flotilla of missiles, or launch at high speeds at a target. The user can modify his/her own head into a deadly laser cannon, capable of leveling an entire city block. Although Shuradō isn’t strong enough to break through Susano’o, it will still effectively put Itachi on the defensive, and in many cases save Nagato from attacks such as shuriken techniques and possibly Amaterasu.
It should be noted that Nagato is largely featless concerning most of these techniques. Moreover, if he possessed the same abilities as Asura, he would not have mobility issues. [1]

In addition, Asura's missiles have never struck anyone with notable speed. Kakashi has seemingly dodged them without a scratch. [2] [3] What's more, it is likely that the additional arms only overcame Kirabi due to surprise, as Nagato's speed is still unimpressive. [4] As Itachi has knowledge on them, the scenario will not repeat itself.

Animal

Quote:
Chikushōdō grants the user the ability to summon an armada of powerful animals. These boss summons not only serve the Rinnegan user in overwhelming their target, but also provide linked-vision for their Summoner. Although not as potent as the previous two abilities, Chikushōdō has proved more than useful for Nagato in battle, and in this fight it will be of utter importance.
Nagato typically takes no care to Summons working in tandem, allowing them to be picked off one by one. [5] They are typically superfluous at this level as well. Deva proved so when he casually manoeuvred around multiple Frogs, and Itachi replicated this by breaking the Rinnegan's connection with ease. [6] [7]

Quote:
Despite the likely inevitable end of the Cerberus summon, its life on the battlefield can be prolonged by keeping it in its separated state. Itachi is very much still capable of defeating it by dragging his Amaterasu across to each dog, though this will even further take a toll on his chakra as well as his body, and will leave him open to Nagato’s attacks while using the technique. Nagato himself can also keep the Cerberus alive by countering Amaterasu via a defensive summon(s). Amaterasu seems like Itachi’s only definite solution to defeating this summon, aside from killing Nagato himself. And giving up a single summon, albeit the strongest one, for a chakra consuming Mangekyō Sharingan technique seems like a decent trade for Nagato.
Cerberus' duplicates only when wounded. [8] Considering Itachi's willingness to employ the Mangekyou against it, there will be no chance for Cerberus to multiply. [9] Defending with additional Summons is unfeasible, as Nagato has never reacted to Amaterasu. He incorrectly identified the build-up of Koto-Amatsukami as Amaterasu, and then failed to react when Amaterasu was actually used. [10] [11] [12]

Quote:
It can also be noted that Nagato can revive his summons via Jigakudō in a case that they are killed, as seen with the Chameleon summon, which was killed by the Ni Dai Sennin in battle prior to the war. Using Jigakudō’s ability seems to be very cheap in chakra consumption, while in turn killing the summons will certainly drain Itachi to a degree. This way, Nagato will always have some form of mobility and range during the battle, and will in turn assist him in keeping the pace of the fight.
The Chameleon was not resurrected with the standard Naraka Path's technique. It is is now heavily bandaged, indicating alternative means were used. [13] Such a stance explains why the Chameleon was not resurrected immediately after death.

Human

Quote:
Ningendō’s main ability is soul removal. The potency if this technique comes from the fact that its prerequisites are simply touching the intended target of the soul extraction. And as you’ve probably assumed, once the extraction is complete, the target is done for. In combination with Banshō Ten’in, this technique becomes very lethal.
Nagato only subjected Naruto to Soul Ripping through entrapment by the Chameleon; such a tactic won't work on Itachi. [14] There is a good chance the Sharingan can discern the Chameleon as well, as it has already been detected twice. Ma rapidly sensed it out, and Naruto was staring right at it. [15] [16] Naruto was likely simply confused due to disconnect between his visual and sensory abilities; not something that would afflict Itachi. [17]

Even if Nagato does successfully begin the technique, it appears to take some time against powerful opponents. [18] During this time-frame Nagato is awfully exposed to Tsukiyomi, and potential Bunshin feints. [19] [20]

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Old 12-20-2011, 09:29 PM   #11
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Jikukan Ninjutsu

Shinra Tensei

Quote:
The Shinra Tensei used on the three Mountain Toads was from dead body equipped with Tendō used at a large distance from Nagato’s location. When Nagato uses his own body for the abilities of Pain Rikudō, all the techniques’ speed and strength are to a higher degree. If Nagato puts enough force into his Shinra Tensei, he can very easily incapacitate Itachi and send him to the next zip-code.
That dead body was the source of Nagato's most developed Chibaku Tensei, and most powerful Shinra Tensei. [20] [21] In fact, Nagato's own usage appears incredibly similar in range. [22] [23] [24] [25]

Furthermore many surmise that the targets mass affects the potency of Shinra Tensei; as it manipulates gravity. That is why small projectiles are merely knocked away, Kakashi is sent flying (but alive) and gigantic Summons are incapacitated. [26] [27]

Quote:
Shinra Tensei is also a complete counter to Susano'o. Susano'o does have the ability to anchor it's user to the ground, although the extent to which it can resist Shinra Tensei is questionable. In any sense, this would be a pointless task to carry out. Even if the user is anchored, they would still be subject to the full force of the blow.
Itachi's Susano'o yielded not one inch when confronted with Orochimaru's Yamata technique, and none of the force was transferred to Itachi. [28]

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Shinra Tensei has a unique Ninjutsu dispelling effect. It’s not far-fetched to say Nagato can dispel the technique entirely, and leave Itachi open to attacks from his summons.
Shinra Tensei cannot be used destructively and disperse jutsu simultaneously; as seen when Raikiri was not nullified. [29] More importantly, jutsu negation appears to have an incredibly short range. [30] [31] [32]

Furthermore, it has been proven that Shinra Tensei is not infallible; it can be turned back. [33] If this is the case, it is likely the legendary, nature altering Yata no Kagami can also replicate the feat. [34] [35] In such a scenarion, Nagato would receive substantial wounds. [36]

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Shinra Tensei should still have a deadly effect on the remaining areas of Susano’o, including Itachi. As seen when Pain used Shinra Tensei on Kakashi and Naruto, the ground behind the targets was destroyed as well. In Naruto’s case, despite resisting the force, the ground behind him was destroyed entirely. Essentially it should be the same when Nagato hits the Yata no Kagami with Shinra Tensei; with the Yata no Kagami resisting the force, the rest of Susano’o will dispel, and Itachi will be severely damaged, if not incapacitated.
Firstly, it is impossible to bypass the Yata no Kagami; its height and width easily protects Itachi himself. [37] Secondly, damaging the technique is immaterial. Danzou's assaults on Susano'o have already proven it does not destabilise, or arbitrarily fail to protect the user when damaged. [38]

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Combined with its defensive properties, Nagato can vary the range of Shinra Tensei and have it simultaneously hit Itachi and damage him whilst repelling his attacks. Using the technique in this manor will keep Itachi from taking advantage of the five second interval after the Shinra Tensei, as this time period would be more used to recover from the hit.
Nagato is willing to expend cool-downs on threats as small as a kunai. [39] He has displayed very little foresight with the jutsu, simply using it whenever available. When combined with Itachi's tactical maneuvres, speed and Bunshin usage; Nagato will be struggling with the five second cool-down. [40] [41] [42]

Bansho Ten'in

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[Bansho Ten'in] can also be used on the surrounding environment to help him in said situation he's placed in. It can be used defensively as well to pull summons out of harm’s way. It's also entirely possible that instead of using Banshō Ten’in on a summon, Nagato uses it on Susano'o itself.
Nagato has only targeted enemies with Bansho Ten'in, and he has never attempted to save Summons with it. Nagato has powerful jutsu, no one can deny that; however he does not apply those jutsu skillfully. He has not fired missiles at targets trapped by Bansho Ten'in, let alone undertaken these unorthodox tactics.

Even if possible, drawing in Susano'o alone would be a grievous mistake. Susano'o was operating independently when it sealed Nagato. [43] [44] This course of action would leave Nagato facing the absurdly fast Totsuka no Tsurugi at close range, while Itachi would remain out of danger.

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Banshō Ten’in can indeed be the decisive factor in this match-up. If Itachi at any point lowers his guard and is drawn into Nagato’s grasp, he is practically defeated. Unless Susano’o is in its armored form, it will not help him at a close distance due to Gakidō, and his shuriken techniques can swatted aside and/or blocked by Shuradō’s arms and tail. As seen with the many instances Banshō Ten’in was used, the victims were unable to form hand-seals, and were forced to counter by other means, if any.
Hand-seals are not rendered impotent, considering Kakashi made extensive hand-movements to combat the jutsu. [45] Itachi has also demonstrated complete ease in mid-air combat. [46] [47]

Itachi also has many options available to combat Bansho Ten'in. Depending on the level of Susano'o manifested, either Yasaka no Magatama or the Totsuka no Tsurugi are plausible. [48] [49] Dis-incorporated Karasu Bunshins could distract Nagato, or place him under Sharingan Genjutsu. [50] [51] Unless Nagato's featless Genjutsu resilience trumps that of a perfect Jinchuriki's, Itachi will already have exploited the opening as well. [52] In addition, Itachi was also capable of placing the far more mobile Kirabi under Genjutsu in close range. [53] Therefore, Nagato may find himself subjected to Tsukiyomi if Itachi is too close. [54]

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With this in mind, Nagato should be able to draw Itachi out of his Susano’o, and into his Gakidō master-lock, Ningendō, or Shuradō’s binding and arm cannon combination. If need be, Nagato can have his summons temporarily immobilize Susano’o. Itachi’s best bet in this situation would be to have Susano’o grab him as he’s pulled out. However, this will be near impossible if Susano’o is in its armored state, as it is wielding its two Legendary Treasures in both arms.

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Old 12-20-2011, 09:31 PM   #12
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Susano'o negates the force acting upon the user. Itachi resisted Chibaku Tensei with Susano'o, which is itself a gravitational pull jutsu. [55] Susano'o is also not obstructed from grabbing Itachi, as it has an additional hand. [56]


Chibaku Tensei

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However, both techniques are certainly not enough to stop the core from drawing Itachi inside and crushing him.
Every technique has a weakness. [57] Chibaku Tensei's is that it requires time to become awe-inspiring. Such a weakness plays perfectly to Itachi's strengths; his speed and intelligence will allow him to combat the jutsu before it becomes invincible.

Indeed, time acts against Chibaku Tensei in more ways than one. When in-character, Nagato decided to employ the jutsu after nine chapters of combat. In two small skirmishes, Itachi made Chibaku Tensei impossible without Edo Tensei regeneration. [58] Itachi's methods of victory are incredibly fast techniques; such rapidity prevents Nagato from concluding Chibaku Tensei is necessary, before it is too late.

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However, if necessary, Chibaku Tensei will be used to completely subdue Itachi. The force behind the technique is enough to completely crush Itachi should it gain enough mass, even with Susano'o activated. Recent chapters have shown that Madara was completely blown to pieces even with Susano'o activated, in the face of a large destructive meteor. And while Itachi does have his mirror, it's simply one sided. It's not a full coverage of Susano'o.
Chibaku Tensei was successfully destroyed after Itachi discerned its weakness, and then relayed that weakness to Kirabi and Naruto. [59] With knowledge and no companions, Itachi's counter-measures will take place virtually instantly; when the jutsu is much less developed. [60]

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The Yasaka no Magatama lacks any sort of destructive feats, and there is no reason to say it is stronger than a six-tailed Bijūdama, which Chibaku Tensei took easily. And the Chibaku Tensei was formed from a dead corpse used at a distance from a heavily fatigued Nagato. I suppose one could argue that Yasaka no Magatama was portrayed as equals with the Hachibi Bijūdama and the Fūton: Rasenshuriken, however this is merely speculation.
Nagato's iteration was far less developed before Itachi responded, and that was with an aforementioned delay. [61] Nevertheless the assault resisted, in no way, represented the true power of Rokubi Naruto's Bijuudama. [62]

While the true strength of Yasaka no Magatama is speculative, narratively we can realise it is powerful. Not only has Itachi stated Yasaka no Magatama is his greatest attack, the name itself carries strong connotations of power. [63] [64] When all this is factored in, a different picture emerges. A vastly overhyped Chibaku Tensei, confronted with an obviously powerful jutsu, while at the nadir of its power.

What is more, Team Nagato has ignored an obvious weakness in Chibaku Tensei: the caster himself. Nagato still lacks mobility, and with his vision obstructed by the debris generated, may find himself vulnerable to attack. [64] [65]

The following sections concern themselves with Nagato's defensive capabilities.

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Old 12-20-2011, 09:32 PM   #13
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Defensive Abilities


Linked Vision

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Nagato’s main defense lies in the linked vision attribute gained from the eyes of his summons. Essentially giving him 360* vision, Nagato cannot be surprise attacked in almost all cases, and can see an attack coming a mile away. Even when blinded, say by Itachi’s Katon: Gōkakyū, the linked vision will still allow him to keep an eye on Itachi’s position and the state of his Susano’o. As Itachi knows of this major advantage on Nagato’s end, it is likely he’ll aim for slaughtering the summons early on. However, Nagato can simply keep the invisible chameleon summon at a distance from the battlefield and have it speculate the fight. And unlike the fight that occurred in the manga, Nagato has his complete arsenal of creatures at his leisure, and is entirely focused on one target, Itachi.
Jiraiya has already shown that versatile characters can bypass the Rinnegan's shared vision through tactics. [66] Not only is Itachi more intelligent than Jiraiya, he possesses superior speed, more flexible Bunshin variants and Genjutsu to replicate the same feat. [67]

Genjutsu will also be vastly effective here. Nagato's Summons appear to operate in the same method as Pain Rikudo, which has already demonstrated a weakness against illusions. [68]

Blinding has been demonstrably useful against the Rinnegan as well, and Itachi has already shown proclivity towards it. [69] [70] When combined all these factors are combined, Itachi will be incapacitating Summons faster than Nagato can deploy them.

Preta

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With Gakidō in his Nagato’s repertoire, Itachi is significantly limited in his offense. He is practically restricted to Genjutsu, shuriken techniques, and his armored Susano’o, all of which can be countered.
Nagato's jutsu provides no defence against Genjutsu, which can either end the battle or create openings for other assaults. [71] [72] Preta also requires the target to contact the barrier; Amaterasu would manifest within, thus causing five seconds of intense damage. [73] When surprised, Nagato is unable to erect the technique; which can be brought about by Bunshin and Ninjutsu feints, or the sheer speed of the Totsuka no Tsurugi. [74] [75] [76]

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In Gakidō’s defense, I believe the two Legendary Items can be absorbed. We’ve seen Gakidō able to absorb even Natural Energy. Yes, Itachi’s weapons are stated to be spiritual. However, one must take into account that Susano’o, a chakra construct, is able to wield them. From this, it isn’t far-fetched to say that the items manifest in chakra form, making them physical, in which case allows the Totsuka no Tsurugi to physically pierce through a target. As seen with the Fuinjutsu: Shiki Fūjin, spiritual attacks do not cause any physical harm. Itachi’s weapons do, however.
Natural Energy is closely linked to chakra, capable of melding with its two components to create a more powerful version. [77] Therefore it is not a huge leap for Preta to affect Natural Energy.

However no such relationship has been established between spiritual objects and chakra. Susano'o wielding them is not sufficient proof, as Danzou is not spiritual by dint of interacting with the technique. [78] The only remaining argument is that spiritual typically implies "intangible", yet no evidence suggests "spiritual" doesn't merely denote a new substance. After all, chakra in the setting bears no resemblance to its real world incarnation as well. [79]


Last edited by Komnenos; 12-21-2011 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:32 PM   #14
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Countering Itachi's Offense


Genjutsu

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Of course, the first thing would be to avoid eye contact, a simple task that Nagato could accomplish by using constant animal summons as a way to compensate for the reduction in his visual field
Maito Gai's method of combating the Sharingan requires training, merely being aware of it is not sufficient. [80] [81] Relying on Summons as alternative vision is not feasible, considering they too can be subjected to Genjutsu, and be dealt with rapidly.

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Even if Nagato is caught in Itachi’s Genjutsu, his linked vision will most definitely counter the illusion. From a different “angle” if you want to call it, he’ll be able to distinguish reality from illusion, and effectively ignore the illusion and proceed to counter whatever attack Itachi is cloaking.
Genjutsu affects the singular mind behind each body, as demonstrated by Magen: Gamarinsho. [83] Genjutsu can already take affect through secondary mediums, or the Moons Eye Plan would be impossible. [84]

Nagato was capable of conversing within Magen: Gamarinsho, proving that his consciousness was trapped within, not merely dead bodies. [85] While Nagato did not materalise within the Genjutsu, the entire scene was an illusion representing foreign chakra invading Nagato's mind. There weren't literally giant Frogs present as well. [86] Further corroborating this assertion is the timing of Nagato's counter-attack. Nagato would prefer for Jiraiya to not render bodies inoperable. [87] However Asura only ambushed Jiraiya after the Genjutsu had been released, indicating that Nagato himself was bound. [88] As such, Itachi's Genjutsu overrides Nagato's shared vision.

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Recent revelations have shown that Rinnegan to be the most evolved form of the Sharingan.
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The basic Genjutsu defense of the Rinnegan should be equal or greater to that of the Sharingan.
The Sharingan is still derived from the Rikudou Sennin's older son. [89] Madara only awakened the Rinnegan after stealing Senju DNA to become a Sage. [90] The Rinnegan is not specifically a more advanced version of the Sharingan, but the outcome of combination with another kekkei genkei.

While the Rinnegan may be superior in overall quality, it is the Sharingan with established feats in Genjutsu. Just as the Rinnegan cannot create illusions, summon chakra beings or spawn black flames, you cannot ascribe the Genjutsu qualities of the Sharingan onto it due to general superiority.

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With the Rinnegan being an evolved form of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, breaking out of Tsukuyomi should not be very difficult for Nagato. Sasuke was able to break the Genjutsu with the simplest form of the Sharingan combined with his skill. Nagato was stated to be a master of the Rinnegan, the most advanced form of the Sharingan.
Defeating Tsukiyomi requires both the Mangekyou Sharingan and superior Genjutsu aptitude to the user; Nagato has neither. [91] Sasuke's victory over the illusion does not mesh with these facts. He did not possess the Mangekyou, and his Genjutsu feats and hype are both consistently below Itachi's. [92] [93] Feats from a fight Itachi intended to lose are a poor representation of potency. [94]

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One most also note that Nagato himself is proficient at Genjutsu use. He put mind seal barriers on ninja's so advanced it stumped Konoha's interrogators. And said jutsu was not just used on one or two ninja. Nagato managed to place information blocking Genjutsu on an entire village of ninja, without ever making face to face contact with any of them.
There is a difference between defending against interrogation techniques, and battlefield Genjutsu. Certainly, these Genjutsu barriers failed to materialise the one time Nagato was confronted with Genjutsu. Regardless, it is more likely that Konan erected those defensive techniques. Not only do they follow a paper theme, Konan was the one who interacted with Ame ninja; not Nagato. [95] [96]

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Nagato was also stated to be a master of the Yin Release due to his Rinnegan, which Genjutsu is a sub-category of.
Nagato was stated to possess an affinity for Yin techniques, which is vastly different. [97] Compare Wave Arc Sasuke and Current Sasuke. One has the potential to master Raiton techniques, the other has realised said potential. Nevertheless, Yin techniques do not necessarily relate to Genjutsu, so vague assertions of skill cannot match Itachi's superlative feats in the area.

Amaterasu

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Amaterasu is a very powerful technique on Itachi’s part, but its charge is what really gives the opponent the opening to exploit. The initial charge of the attack is relatively long, and as stated before, the “pressure” of Amaterasu can be sensed. Nagato can effectively counter the attack by placing a defensive summon in Itachi’s line-of-sight.
Nagato's inability to react to Amaterasu has already been expounded upon. As such, he is wholly incapable of taking counter-measures against the jutsu.

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Hence if Amaterasu hits him, he will immediately counter with either Shinra Tensei or Gakidō
Countering with Shinra Tensei assumes it is available for use. Dubious, as Nagato is rather careless with the jutsu. Kakashi was capable of discerning the cool-down rapidly; once Itachi does so, Amaterasu can be timed for maximum effect. [98] Preta cannot absorb a technique that does not interact with the barrier created.

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If however, he does end up losing a limb or two, he can heal himself with a quick use of Jigakudō.
Naraka's resurrection technique revived Preta over the course of chapters. [99] [100] Itachi is also capable of interacting with the King of Hell. [101] Even with a time-frame magnitudes shorter than in the manga, Nagato would be fatally exposed.


Closing


While both are supremely talented shinobi, it is Itachi who would emerge the victor. Nagato's arsenal may be powerful, but the skill with which he applies it is lacklustre. When combined with very real issues concerning speed and weak Genjutsu resistance, Nagato is incapable of matching Itachi's more tactical approach.

Conversely, Itachi commands both power and intellect. Because of this, Itachi can successfully utilise even basic jutsu with startling efficiency, in contrast to Nagato; completely reliant on the Rinnegan. Ultimately, this is what results in victory for Itachi. Superior skill allows him to apply far more techniques at a far greater pace. As such, even Nagato's impressive defenses will be overcome, and the Mangekyou requires but a few shots to destroy an opponent.

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Old 12-21-2011, 11:30 PM   #15
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Arrow [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato—3rd Speaker for Nagato

Intro
Greetings fanboys and girls, I would like to formally welcome you to the Greater Debate. I'd first like to begin by introducing myself—I am Empathy, the third speaker for Nagato. Nagato Uzumaki vs Itachi Uchiha is undoubtedly one of the highest most debated topics in battledome history, and has been for quite some time now(though until recently Pain was usually used in his stead). With some of the more recent chapters featuring Itachi with Naruto's and Killer Bee's aid and their triumphant victory over Nagato, it has only extraordinarily increased in popularity. Before I get on with my rebuttals, I would like to give some credit where it is due. I would first like to thank the organizers of this event; Komnenos and Strategos. I would also like to thank my teammates; Lightysnake, Ace, and Scorpion. I wanna thank Strategos, Nikushimi, Komnenos, and Akatsuki no Tenshi for participating on the opposing team and wish them luck. And thank our adjudicators; Sanbi, The Pirate on Wheels, Puppetry, and our main adjudicator—Thunder. As well as thank our BD moderators, Winchester and Akatsuki no Tenshi, for allowing us to partake in this event. Lastly, I would like to thank future voters and everyone who is taking the time to read these lengthy speeches. I will try to provide supportive evidence to back why I believe Nagato would emerge the victor if the two ever fought. Hopefully, my usage of depth in my interpretation will ultimately lead to success in my endeavor.


Hype
There's no denying that both combatants have substantial hype. But Nagato has superior hype. Not only was Nagato made the Akatsuki leader(who was really being manipulated behind the shadows by Tobi), while Itachi was only a member, but he possess the Rinnegan. The Rinnegan, which is stated to be the highest evolution of the Sharingan. The stages of the Sharingan go in the following order: It starts with less than three tomoe → evolves next into the maximum three tomoe → then the Mangekyou Sharingan, which Itachi possess → next the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan → and finally the Rinnegan, which Nagato possess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
The Rinnegan has been portrayed as a stronger dōjutsu than the Mangekyō Sharingan. The author has, however, made it explicit that the skill with dōjutsu can trump a disparity in the level of dōjutsu. Is Itachi superior to Nagato in the usage of his eye techniques?
Previously, both were praised as the ultimate Doujutsu in both the databooks and the manga. There was much controversial debate on which one was the true 'ultimate Doujutsu.' Now we've confirmation that the Rinnegan is actually superior to the Mangekyou Sharingan. Itachi advocates answer to this was Zetsu's statement about how quality in skill can make up for inferiority in power. This statement is not untrue however, Nagato is not a novice, he's an expert. Itachi is also an expert, but an expert with an inferior tool. An expert with a shuriken can defeat another expert with a rock. It doesn't matter if the other is the more skilled or not, unless that skill is great enough to cover the lesser skill and fill the gap in power. If Nagato were a novice with the Rinnegan, with just superior eyes, then sure, Itachi would defeat Nagato. But that's not the case. Nagato has both the skill and power. You're not trading quality for quantity in power. You're trading quality for both quality and quantity in power.

Itachi's skill cannot make up for the considerable gap in power between eyes, or the stone and shuriken. The disparity in power is too substantial, and Nagato is already extremely skilled in his own right. Whomever is the more skilled with their eyes doesn't matter, because Nagato is already too strong for that skill to overcome the gap in power. Itachi's not strong enough for his skill to carry him through the battle. I could be extremely adept with a Glock 19 and still loose in a firefight to a guy with a M4 carbine assault rifle(links are just for you non-firearm savvy people). Especially if that guy is also skilled with his weapon as well. I'd also like to point out that Kabuto's statement about Itachi being on another level is a mistranslation. Kabuto really says something like 'Uchiha Itachi . . . what I guy! Not even Edo Tensei can hold him!' or "I made light of him . . . Itachi Uchiha . . . this one is clearly different than an average Joe/an ordinary or normal one . . . Even this Edo Tensei is . . .(beaten by him)."

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegon-rokudo's translation from mangahelpers
7
kabuto: I underestimated him...!\\
kabuto: uchiha itachi... he is clearly different from the others!\\
kabuto: even this edo tensei...\\
itachi: it went well...\\
text: amaterasu!!\\
nagato: I see...\\
nagato: that's it...\\
bird: kuoooh!!\\
The kanji used probably has something to do with greatly astonishing or different(out of the ordinary). I think it could also mean 'clearly different from the others' as in it's completely different from the resistance provided by others. The other translation isn't necessarily incorrect but it's a bit free or broad and open-ended. Even if that translation were accurate we've got to take what Kabuto said into context. Kabuto could have been referring to him underestimating Itachi because he completely broke free from his control, were others just resisted it. Kabuto's comment was probably sparked in the heat of the moment because he didn't expect Shisui Uchiha to come flying out of Naruto's mouth. Kabuto's word isn't gospel. I'd find it hard to believe that Itachi was not only stronger than Nagato, but in a completely different ballpark than the 'Child of Prophecy,' 'Third Rikudou,' and 'Savior of the World,' Nagato Uzumaki. I don't think it's unfathomable to say Nagato is weaker than Itachi. But to think he is in a completely different tier than Nagato, is something I find to be an absurd, ludicrous notion(to say the least).


Itachi could not have won that battle on his own
One of the biggest reasons why this debate is so controversial and has only grown more in popularity lately is due to their battle during the war, were Itachi successfully sealed Nagato. It's easy to overlook Naruto's and Bee's presence and give Itachi all of the credit when you consider what little Naruto and Bee contributed offensively, once Itachi joined forces with them. But Itachi could not have accomplished what he did without them. I admit, Itachi did the majority of the dirty work. Naruto and Bee barely contributed offensively once Itachi broke free from Kabuto's control, besides attacking the core of Chibaku Tensei on Itachi's order. I cannot stress more how Itachi could not have succeeded in sealing him without them and how essential they were. Make no mistake, Itachi's performance is not a replicable feat with neutral conditions, not favoring Itachi, one-on-one. If the author really wanted to portray Itachi as superior, he could've had Itachi send Naruto and Bee ahead, and leave him to deal with Nagato, alone.

Itachi broke free of Edo Tensei by triggering Shisui's eye to activate and layer Kotoamatsukami on top of Edo Tensei, by accident. He programmed the crow to come out on Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan activation. Predicting that Sasuke would seek out the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan's power and transplant his eyes, the activation of Itachi's eyes in his final battle with Naruto would cause the crow to activate and cast Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke. He left the inscription programmed on it: "protect the village of Konoha" to mind control Sasuke into protecting Konoha. By facing Naruto and activating his own Mangekyou he triggered Kotoamatsukami on himself, with the inscription about protecting Konoha left on it, overriding Kabuto's control. That's how he was able to join forces with Naruto and Bee. They needed him to seal Nagato, because they lacked a practical Fuinjutsu to use on him. Bee has his Okutopasu Horudo, but that wouldn't work against Nagato. He could likely absorb it or easily blow it away with Shinra Tensei. But Itachi could not have sealed Nagato without Naruto's and Bee's assistance, along with Kabuto's own negligence.


Last edited by Empathy; 12-30-2011 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:31 PM   #16
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Arrow [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato—3rd Speaker for Nagato

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
In addition to genjutsu trickery that could potentially induce self-harm, Itachi has immense bunshin speed that he can use in conjunction with finding blindspots in Rinnegan vision to commence powerful ninjutsu from.
While Naruto and Bee provided no offensive support, they did provide the necessary distraction for Itachi to accomplish that. Nagato attacked them here. We don't see Itachi is again until here, when he rescues Naruto and Bee. During the time that Nagato was beating Naruto and Bee, we can presume Itachi was busy setting up Susanoo and putting kunai in the Rinnegan's blind-spots. No bunshin will suffice for the distraction Naruto and Bee provided. With Nagato's full attention focused on Itachi, he won't be able to blindside him like he did there. Kabuto's incompetence and ineptitude also played a big role there as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
This is the exact same ambush tactic that Itachi used repeatedly against Nagato to amputate both of his arms and seal him.
Kabuto had momentarily completely forgotten about Itachi's entire existence. With just them one-on-one, this won't happen again. Nagato will be giving Itachi his undivided attention. He won't have Kabuto's negligence and Naruto's and Bee's distraction to rely on. So he won't be able to get around linked vision and blind his stationary summons, and amputate his arm again, like he did there. There's no reason in the first amputation instance why Nagato couldn't have absorbed it with Fuujutsu Kyuuin or dispersed it with Shinra Tensei the second it appeared. But Kabuto was piloting Nagato and he was more focused on one of his strongest Edos running rampant, at the moment. It's not like he had to worry about Nagato being harmed—he'd always regenerate. Nagato himself, obviously isn't going to fight back. He doesn't even wish to fight them.

I don't see how it matters if Nagato had both his arms amputated against Itachi, because he's got a lot more to spare. Itachi also could not have survived Chibaku Tensei on his own. It was previously an unknown factor if Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama could destroy Chibaku Tensei's core by itself. We didn't know Chibaku Tensei's core's durability, nor did we know Yasaka no Magatama's full capacities. But with more recent chapters it was revealed that Madara's more impressive display failed to fully breach Gaara's and Onoki's layered defense, and that Yasaka no Magatama is more similar of an attack to Sasuke's Susanoo arrows(them being an equal version of Susanoo and all), which aren't very destructive. Some argue that all the Jutsu are portrayed to be equal because they were thrown alongside each other, but that would also be false. Bee's Bijuudama is far more impressive than Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken in terms of destructive capacity. So why should Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama be any different if Naruto's and Bee's Jutsus clearly aren't even close?

I believe Bee's Bijuudama did most of the work there, while Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken also contributed some, and Itachi's Yasaka no Magatama did the least of the work. Though statistically odds were already that Yasaka no Magatama couldn't make-up for the power of Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and the Bijuudama by itself. The layers of mountains and forests compacted together to form Chibaku Tensei also adds to it's defense, which took KN6's Bijuudama easily. But that didn't matter with Itachi, because he deduced it's weakness before it had barely begun to form(hardly enough to cover the core), so it didn't even make a difference. Itachi couldn't survive against Nagato without Naruto and Bee, and had to use their combined efforts to take him down. It seemed fairly obvious that once Itachi was freed, his purpose in that battle would be to seal Nagato because Naruto and Bee lacked a feasible Fuinjutsu to use on him. Having Itachi seal him with the Totsuka no Tsurugi was their only way to win.

Nagato's Offense
Shinra Tensei
As highlighted by Ace, Shinra Tensei is one of Nagato's highest most valuable assets in both offense and defense. A single Shinra Tensei was able to send three boss summons flying and broke every bone in their bodies, incapacitating them. Imagine if Nagato chose to use that level of Shinra Tensei on Itachi(which he can do easily). If it can break every bone in big, bad Gamabunta's body, it will easily kill teeny-tiny Itachi without the usage of Susanoo. Nagato can force him to bring forth his greatest Jutsu so casually just in order to survive a average attack from him. While Nagato does not normally use such a large scale on small ninja, nothing stops he from doing it if Itachi is deemed a threat(which he should be, just from his knowledge). If Nagato really wants to kill Itachi then it is literally no trouble at all for him to use a stronger one. He was able to create one on such a scale that it annihilated Konoha.

Nagato needed to deactivate all other Paths and channel his chakra to Deva in order to produce one on that level. But he doesn't need to do this with himself because he already possess all his chakra, though it would still leave him unable to use Shinra Tensei for a few minutes. Itachi could defend against these with the Yata no Kagami, but they would at least send him into the next zip-code(if not outright kill him). The one on the scale that sent three boss summons far away from the village or obliterated Konoha aren't exactly necessary. A much smaller one will still suffice. Also Nagato arguably does not seem to suffer from the same interval that Deva does. This may have been a result of Deva being further away from Nagato, because he had to get closer to Nagato in order to use Chibaku Tensei. Nagato used Banshou Ten'in on both Naruto and a stone from the nearby lake, simultaneously. Nagato also used Shinra Tensei here, and then uses it again on the very next page.


Last edited by Empathy; 12-30-2011 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:31 PM   #17
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Arrow [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato—3rd Speaker for Nagato

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
For example, Kirābī did not react to Itachi's shunshin before Nagato warned him. How is this possible when Kirābī saved the Raikage from Hiraishin? Because Itachi blocked vision with his katon to slow down his reaction.
That tactic can be countered with Shinra Tensei. One strong enough to disperse Katon: Goukakyuu no Jutsu and halt Itachi's advancement in one blow. Itachi won't be able to capitalize on anything if he's recovering himself. If Itachi gets in too close, then he's sent away by Shinra Tensei. Linked vision can follow Itachi's movements. Nagato's a lot more attentive and diligent than Bee, and won't be stopped by such a tactic like that. Naruto tried similar tactics against Pain and they soon failed once Deva got his powers back.


Banshou Ten'in
Banshou Ten'in is one of Nagato's more underrated and typically overlooked Jutsu. But it actually could serve much purpose in this battle. It's usually associated with Nagato using the Jutsu to draw the target forth into a finisher, most commonly Human Path's soul removal. This may not be a good tactic against Itachi himself, as he'd be vulnerable to any one of Itachi's techniques at that range. But used wisely, this Jutsu could prove to be a very valuable offensive asset in this battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Itachi is dangerous. Susano'o is dangerous. Posters fail to realize that they are separate entities that fight simultaneously.
I'm pretty sure that's a drawing error because we later see Itachi within Susanoo. But you are correct, Itachi is still a threat and can still attack while within Susanoo. Susanoo of course isn't sentient, and still needs to be piloted by Itachi. They do need to be treated as two separate threats that work in tandem. But Madara's Susanoo appeared to disperse when it was separated from it's user too much or for too long. He then had to reform it where there was no sand present at his feet. Is it so unfeasible to say that Nagato can use Banshou Ten'in to yank Itachi from Susanoo? I doubt Itachi can set up Susanoo, leave it miles away, and have it run a muck by itself. There's got to be some limited range to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
The spiritual items Itachi possesses were described by Zetsu as being distinct from Susano'o. They did not seem to be absorbable,
I agree, Itachi's legendary items; the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami do appear to be distinct from Susanoo, that he equipped to his Susanoo. I doubt he just spawned legendary items out of thin-air one day. They do appear to be separate from Susanoo. Orochimaru was said to have searched for one his entire life, and Itachi found it. I'm glad we're in agreement about the items being distinct from Susanoo, and that he equipped them onto his Susanoo. Because if he put them on, then they can be taken back off. Nagato should be able to arguably strip Itachi of his legendary items using Banshou Ten'in. From there it's chakra manifestation and can be routinely absorbed or dispersed with Fuujutsu Kyuuin or Shinra Tensei, respectively.

Nagato's Defense
Genjutsu Counter
Itachi's Genjutsu is easily some of the best in the manga. It's a big reason why Itachi is so dangerous. He is able to cast powerful Genjutsu just by looking or pointing at you. While one method of counter would be simply avoiding looking at his fingers and eyes, to prevent being caught by Genjutsu. But I won't pretend like that alone would put a complete stop to Itachi's Genjutsu. The trick here is Nagato can break at the very least Itachi's base Genjutsu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Itachi once boasted that only [Tobi] could defeat his genjutsu.
His statement, "some resistance could be made" from those with the Sharingan was disproven when Naruto(someone who is very unskilled in Genjutsu) provided resistence to his sleep inducing Genjutsu. There's also an arguable case that Orochimaru was going to break his Magen: Kasegui. We see Orochimaru trying to form the Genjutsu kai seal. Itachi intercepts him by cutting off his hand so he could not complete the seal. Now I cannot prove that Orochimaru was undoubtedly going to break it, nor can anyone else prove that he was undoubtedly going to fail at breaking it; but the fact that Itachi himself must have thought he had a chance at breaking it, is proof enough for me that "some resistance could be made." We saw Sasuke cast the very same Genjutsu on Orochimaru. Yet he was later seen without it.

This suggests that he may have broken it. Deidara was able to train his left eye to see through Sharingan Genjutsu. Now before people go doubting his his ability because of this instance—he made it abundantly clear that was not Genjutsu. He must've saw the crumbling snakes from earlier and thought it meant victory. The eyes that appeared behind him are not indicative of Genjutsu(they've never been used besides this instance); they indicate the Sharingan getting the best of Deidara. To replicate this depiction, where the Sharingan originally got the best of Deidara. The tomoe beside Itachi resemble the Sharingan. The author wouldn't show Deidara's Sharingan resistant eye successfully counter Sharingan Genjutsu, just to show it as a failure later. That wouldn't make any sense. Deidara himself, believed this was a sufficient counter to Itachi's Genjutsu and intended to confront him one day, with this as his ace in the hole. And at the very least, he could've provided resistance. So Itachi's claim is entirely false, as even people with normal eyes have been able to resist or outright break Sharingan Genjutsu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Why exclude Nagato? Perhaps because superior aptitude is a factor in breaking Itachi's genjutsu, and Itachi possessed legendary aptitude? Itachi did show that he could layer genjutsu that required multiple breaks for even dōjutsu.


Last edited by Empathy; 12-30-2011 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:32 PM   #18
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Arrow [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato—3rd Speaker for Nagato

People with normal eyes and even mediocre Genjutsu skill have resisted and even broken Sharingan Genjutsu, so why should I exclude Nagato? Nagato, who has a superior evolutionary Doujutsu than the Sharingan? Doujutsu that sees through Genjutsu. Nagato, who was stated to have the potential capability to master all elements, including Inton which was stated to be directly related to Genjutsu? Nagato, who was able to place mind barriers, which are stated to be excellent Genjutsu defenses, in every citizen of Amegakure? I find it hard to believe that he could place them in every citizen of Amegakure, but not be able to place one in himself. With a superior Doujutsu in Rikudou Sennin's Rinnegan, potential Inton mastery, and mind barricades—he should be able to at least counter Itachi's base Genjutsu. Especially when far less suited people have done so before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Moreover, genjutsu frequently targets emotional vulnerabilities to make genjutsu more difficult to break. Was Nagato emotionally stable enough to defeat Itachi's genjutsu without providing Itachi a window of opportunity?
Itachi has not demonstrated any knowledge of Nagato's past, from what I can recall. While Nagato has certainly had more than his fair share of tragedy and traumatizing experiences, Itachi doesn't know of Nagato's past suffering in order to exploit and target his emotions. Furthermore, Nagato has shown to have completely coped with his 'pain.' He was stoic, aloof, and detached in personality before meeting Naruto. Knowing that Itachi commonly utilizes illusions and that being confronted with deceased people from his past is impossible, would better assist him in better recognizing Genjutsu, so he can break it.


Amaterasu
Amaterasu is Itachi's second most powerful Jutsu. It is easily one of the most formidable Jutsu in the manga. But Nagato affords an easy counter to Amaterasu. As I mentioned earlier, Amaterasu can be easily dealt with by disersing it with Shinra Tensei or absorbing it with Fuujutsu Kyuuin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Using genjutsu or Amaterasu in conjunction with Susano'o would compound the drain on Itachi's stamina, but it wouldn't be immediately effective,
A strong Shinra Tensei can counter that. It'll disperse Amaterasu and send Susanoo back—resulting in a huge waste of chakra for Itachi. And yes, it would be immediately effective. Sasuke expressed great pain and discomfort during his first usage of Amaterasu. Nagato can use mind barriers to prevent weaker base Genjutsu. By the time Susanoo is brought out, he can avoid eye-contact much more efficiently. He has a good idea where Itachi is with the giant chakra manifestation looming over him. He can employ his shared vision to observe Itachi's feet, back, and other body parts without having to look at his eyes, for an effective Genjutsu prevention tactic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
It is doable with Amaterasu, which Itachi has synced with his vast agility.
Shinra Tensei has shown to be an excellent counter to Amaterasu. He can easily Shinra Tensei it away the second it appears. There's no reason why he also couldn't absorb it with Fuujutsu Kyuuin either. In this scenario, with Itachi charging as he uses Amaterasu, a strong Shinra Tensei would be most appropriate in stopping both Amaterasu and Itachi's advancement in one blow. Nagato could've dispersed or absorbed Amaterasu with Shinra Tensei and Fuujutsu Kyuuin on contact. But Kabuto was piloting him and he was more focused on his unresponsive Edo running rampant, free from his control. He doesn't have to worry about Nagato being harmed, for he'd always regenerate. Nagato himself obviously, is not going to fight back.

He doesn't even want to fight his friends. Amaterasu serves as an effective counter to Nagato's summons. Namely, his troublesome Cerberus one. But with Shinra Tensei as an counter to Amaterasu, Nagato can use Shinra Tensei to disperse Amaterasu off his summons, so they can batter and attack Itachi even more. The only way to get rid of them for good would be to hit them with the Totsuka(which can arguably be stripped away with Banshou Ten'in). He would also need Susanoo just to survive some of Nagato's more fundamental attacks. Resulting in a very significant chakra expenditure for Itachi, and a very miniscule one for Nagato. Nagato pressures and forces Itachi to resort to his greatest Jutsus just to survive and keep-up with his more rudimentary attacks.


Susanoo
Susanoo is Itachi's greatest Mangekyou Jutsu, and the Jutsu Itachi used to seal Nagato. It's his only defensive Jutsu as well. It's definitely one of Nagato's biggest threats entering this fight, but he does possess ways to deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
but Nagato may not have been able to react only ten or so meters outside of the dust cloud. If so, this would leave Nagato with only Deva Path, which is his most frequent defensive and offensive maneuver - one that possesses a cool down period that leaves the immobile Nagato entirely vulnerable to the Totsuka held by Susano'o or the kunai held by Itachi.
One large Shinra Tensei should take care of all that. He can block and defend against the Totsuka using Shinra Tensei. It should send Itachi and his Susanoo back, and block any other incoming attacks like kunai. If you're saying he's going to conjure Susanoo to the level where it has the Totsuka and capitalize on the interval, then that's a bit less feasible than you make it sound. Susanoo has to transcend through it's lower stages to get to the higher ones. He's never conjured the entire thing at once, without having to materialize it's lesser stages. The Totsuka no Tsurugi is only available to him in it's final stage. He'd need to have it out already, which would take any subtlety out of the equation. He could have Susanoo out already and force him to block with Shinra Tensei using kunai, and then exploit the interval. But Nagato's liable to save that for separating himself from Susanoo than he would for simple kunai. He could just use a summon or some mechanized armor to block kunai. Nagato could just use a strong wave-like Shinra Tensei that sends kunai away and forces Susanoo back in one go. Without the dust as cover and having knowledge on it now, he would know to keep his distance between him and Susanoo.

He may chose to mount his bird summon to fly away, in order separate himself from Itachi and his deadly Susanoo. So he can stay out of the Totsuka's reach. He can comfortably defend against his long-range attacks in the air—Yasaka no Magatama and Amaterasu by dispersing them away from himself or his bird with Shinra Tensei or absorbing oncoming attacks with Fuujutsu Kyuuin. With an aerial view Nagato can keep watch of Itachi over the entire battlefield and follow his tricks with kunai and bunshin feints. He'd be able to break Genjutsu and leave more than enough of an opening to block any incoming attacks. If he chooses to remain on the ground, then his intentions are no different. He'll want to keep as much as distance between him and Susanoo as possible. Using Shinra Tensei to block the Totsuka no Tsurugi and keep his distance away from Susanoo. He'd still want to avoid it at all costs, and keep Itachi and his Susanoo at bay with Shinra Tensei. Nagato also arguably does not appear to retain the same interval that Deva does. Nagato used Banshou Ten'in on Naruto and a stone from the nearby lake, at the same time. Nagato also used Shinra Tensei on Amaterasu and then, on the next page, used it again.


Last edited by Empathy; 12-30-2011 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:33 PM   #19
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Arrow [Greater Debate] Itachi vs Nagato—3rd Speaker for Nagato

General Rebuttal
Just a spot for me to refute miscellaneous stuff I couldn't find an actual category to put under, but still had an answer for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Nagato cannot walk, but his true weakness is his inactive fighting style.
Nagato was still crippled there, so I don't really know what you expected him to do. He couldn't get involved much physically. Nagato's mobility is much better with his body restored and vitalized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
Nagato frequently attacked with one power or body at a time while he stood and observed his opponents. There is a sharp contrast in the offense he could present, and the offense he does present. Fortunately for my case, Itachi's opening maneuvers against Nagato and Orochimaru and Deidara demonstrate that Itachi is an incredibly proactive combatant when fighting enemies of Konoha.
Naruto stated that since Nagato is not simply manipulating dead bodies anymore, his Jutsu speed and execution are entirely different(in a better way). His usage of Pain is not identical to how he would fight as himself. Nagato utilized multiple Pain abilities simultaneously when fighting. Some of your key examples are taken out of context. Pain was sending Human out to test Jiraiya's abilities, and attack while he was distracted. Animal was too valuable of an offensive asset. He was their main attacker. Pain wanted to capitalize while Jiraiya was distracted, so using any summons would take any stealth or subtlety out of the equation. He couldn't send Preta out there either. Too valuable of an supplementary asset with Ninjutsu absorption. Human is far more equipped and lethal in CQC. Preta isn't the offensive type. It was actually probably a wise action.

Pain sees his adversary now with two other strange beings mounted on his shoulders, and his former sensei now frog-like in appearance for some reason. So he would want to get a feel on his new abilities. Naruto was advancing toward Pain in your other example. He was intercepted by Pain's next two most CQC oriented and expendable Paths at the moment; Human and Preta. Naruto just happened to run into Preta, and thought that his shared vision would cover him. He couldn't send Deva to confront him—too valuable. Animal's a main offensive asset and very poor in close-quarters. Naraka's too valuable as a healer, and is always kept in the back. Itachi had already brought Susanoo out when he sealed Orochimaru. It's not usually an opening maneuver for him to use Susanoo early on his opponent. But Itachi wanted to rid Sasuke of Orochimaru for good.

And he was forced to bring it out to survive Kirin. Nagato affords easy counters to any opening Amaterasu or Genjutsu. It's a good idea to get a feel on your opponent's abilities at the start of the match by seeing how they deal with a few expendable summons. Kakashi stated that operating each body with just your eyes is very difficult and requires a lot of chakra. So it would be much easier to utilize a small number of Pain abilities at once, but that's not how Nagato himself would fight. Nagato's fighting style has been stated to be wholly different and superior to Pain's(so using Pain's actions to determine Nagato's in-character is a erroneous point), and he is definitely not inactive while fighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategoob View Post
and Itachi has fortunately demonstrated exceptional stamina as an Edo. He used a third Amaterasu on his crow after sealing Nagato without appearing fatigued, whereas Edo Kages have become physically exhausted from their jutsu that aren't giant jinchūriki-like chakra cloaks.
Itachi arguably has replenishing chakra or regenerating eyesight(the latter more likely). It makes sense given that Sasuke showed immediate strain from his very first usage of Amaterasu. The argument does have some merit to it, when something like that shouldn't be ordinarily possible even with fresh eyes. Jouki Boi could consume an extraordinary amount of chakra. The Jutsu is called mugen bakuha Ninjutsu, which means infinite explosion Ninjutsu. This suggests that the Jutsu lasts forever, or at least an extremely long amount of time to earn the monicker "infinite." Itachi's Mangekyou Jutsu don't last long(Amaterasu doesn't seem to cost chakra once it's used, or it would continuously use up chakra for an entire week). That's nothing compared to a Jutsu that's suppose to last forever.

It may consume a large amount of chakra faster than the rate his chakra is replenishing(if Edo's chakra does regenerate). It does rationalize something that shouldn't ordinarily be possible for Itachi. He should've shown at least some strain, even with perfect eyesight. It makes sense that his eyesight regenerates, when Itachi was blind at the time of his death. But he was revived with his eyes healed. Also, the trade-off for Mangekyou Jutsu has always been primarily eyesight rather than chakra. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they each cost a great deal of chakra. In fact, Shoten Itachi, who possess 30% of Itachi's chakra, said he was unable to use the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Suggesting that his Mangekyou Jutsu consume over 30% of Itachi's chakra, or that he wouldn't have enough chakra to spare, leftover to fight the others. But the trade-off has always been eyesight. Itachi, who scores a very low 2.5 out of possible 5 in stamina, was still able to use all three Mangekyou Jutsu in one sitting, along with a variety of other techniques before he died. He was already suffering from grave illness and close to blindess, at the time. Sasuke, who has never had extraordinary chakra reserves, was able to maintain a constant Mangekyou usage at the Kage Summit. Sasuke commented on the extreme pain from using the lowest level of Susanoo and wondered how Itachi could go through it for so long, but never makes any mention of chakra loss.


Conclusion
Itachi is a formidable opponent and a worthy adversary for Nagato. Both of them have each defeated a Sannin. One of them being an Uchiha and the other an Uzumaki—they do represent Naruto and Sasuke in a way. But overall, Nagato is superior. Itachi's arsenal is collectively shut-down by Nagato's abilites. Nagato possess superior hype. He possess the Sharingan's highest achievable evolution. Zetsu's statement only applies to him if he were unskilled with his eyes, which is not the case. Nagato is far more powerful than Itachi. Itachi's tactics can be countered with Nagato's versatile repertoire. He has no means to counter Chibaku Tensei. He won't have Naruto and Bee there as a distraction. Nagato will be entirely focused on Itachi, giving him his undivided attention.

He won't have Kabuto's negligence to rely on either. Itachi won't be able to replicate his previous performance with neutral battle conditions, not in Itachi's favor, one-on-one. His separate legendary items; the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami, can be stripped away from Itachi's Susanoo using Banshou Ten'in. Without it's tools, Susanoo is a chakra manifestation, and can be regularly absorbed or dispersed. Itachi can arguably be yanked away from Susanoo with Banshou Ten'in, which will disperse if it's separated from it's user for too long. I really don't see how Nagato could be weaker than Itachi when the author gave him a superior Doujutsu, made him the Akatsuki leader, and made it clear that he could not survive against Nagato on his own.


Last edited by Empathy; 12-30-2011 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:30 AM   #20
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Important Announcement - Please Read


The Greater Debate is now open for voting!!!


So how will this all work?

Judges have two weeks in which to hand in their assessments. During that time, the general Battledome public is also free to vote.

The final scorings on both teams will work thusly:

Adjudicators will have their total points rewarded averaged, and be awarded to both teams. This will result in an Adjudicator score anywhere between 0 and 100.

Public votes are then worth a total of 100 points in total. These 100 points will then be divided between the two teams based on their percentage of votes.

Example:

Team Nagato receives an average score of 75, while Team Itachi receives 82.

However Team Nagato receives six of the ten public votes. Thus they gain an additional 60 points, while Team Itachi only gains 40.

Therefore, the final end scores are:

Team Itachi: 122.
Team Nagato: 135.

Relevant to the Adjudicators

We may need an additional judge, as I have not heard back from Sanbi at this point in time. If you're at all interesting in judging this event, either contact me through VM's/PM's, or state so in this thread.

During your assessments, I would appreciate if you used this scoring rubric.
  • Strength of argument - X/40
  • Use of evidence and examples - X/30
  • Relevance - X/15
  • Presentation - X/15

Just some minor notes. Strength of argument and evidence are fairly obvious to discern. Relevance concerns how well the speaker stays on point. For example, a previous speech in the Great Debate (Itachi vs Jiraiya) dedicating pages to a fairly inconsequential, minor point, is not relevant to the debate as a whole. Presentation revolves around proper use of syntax and grammar, as well as formatting. How "readable" the speech is.

Relevant to Voters

Please note that you are voting on the superior argument, not necessarily who you support in the actual match-up. Your vote must also provide an acceptable degree of reasoning. You must demonstrate you read both sides, formed an opinion on how effective their speeches were, and then state your reasons in the vote. While I am not asking for pages of analysis, at least a paragraph or two will most likely be needed, if you want your vote to not be nulled.

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