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Old 07-14-2011, 02:40 PM   #1
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Default 10bit H.264 (Hi10P) Discussion Thread - Latest encoding standard on the block

So, as anyone who has been on /a/ in the past 3 days knows, there has been somewhat of a shitstorm with the introduction of this new encoding standard, and the fact that several fansubbing groups will be transitioning to the new standard next season.

Groups confirmed for being hipsters:

1. Underwater (Daiz)
2. Commie
3. Ryuumaru
4. Interrobang

And more relevant groups are likely to jump on the bandwagon in the coming months.

Basically, what this new standard does is allow for higher quality releases by encoding into 10bit (yes, even with an 8bit source), which allows for more color data to be used in videos and thus less banding. From my understanding, this results in smaller file sizes as encoders don't have to use high bitrates anymore to deal with the banding issues. For instance, this Denpa Onna ep 7 encoded by Daiz, which was originally 265MBs, is now 165MBs.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=P2C2TO48

So, stuff like 500MB encodes for gg releases would be a thing of the past (ideally).

The problem right now is compatibility. The current build of ffdshow in the latest stable release of CCCP does not support 10bit. However, a new beta of CCCP was released a few days ago with a build of ffdshow that supports 10bit, and thus opening the doors of possibility for fansub groups to start using 10bit as the standard for encodes going forward. Oh yeah, the latest VLC beta also supports 10bit, but lol VLC. And DIVX will be left further behind.

Oh, and it might result in the death of streaming.



Sorry streamfags.


tl;dr new encoding standard that will allow for higher quality releases with smaller file sizes and more buttmad oldfags starting next season. And may also kill streaming. Rage more streamfags.

Discuss.

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Old 07-14-2011, 02:47 PM   #2
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You can't stop progress
And smaller filesize (especially with better quality) is always welcomed.

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Old 07-14-2011, 02:57 PM   #3
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Haha, my friend zaockle actually called me yesterday during work to tell me about this. This is a pretty major breakthrough, but honestly, it comes down to utilization and knowing the product. I'm sure we can count on fansubbers to use this new technology, but the problem is industry adaptation. If they can encode more for less, it'll likely mean more downscaling to fit even more onto a BD release.

But only time will tell.

Also, that reminds me: it's such a shame that Steins;Gate has some of the most horrific banding known to anime releases.

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:01 PM   #4
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Why would it kill streaming?

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:10 PM   #5
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Watch the vidya. Skip to 00:30 specifically.

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:20 PM   #6
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Even with terrible quality to that degree (the video kind of reminded me of what happens when you decrease a gif's quality), streamers will still stream. Especially if they're the more casual watcher who doesn't even know that one can even download anime.

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:23 PM   #7
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The entire point of streaming is being able to watch something without downloading it completely beforehand

And unless the videos lose 90% of their size, streaming will never be obsolete

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:32 PM   #8
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I guess that's true, but I'm sure there will be point where the vids will become borderline incomprehensible during this transition. Imagine that S;G vid, but with burning like that throughout the entire episode. Every time there's fast movements or dark areas the vids will become basically unwatchable (even beyond what's the standard now).

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:38 PM   #9
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hulu or crunchyroll will save the day

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Old 07-14-2011, 03:41 PM   #10
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Unfortunately most of the best anime aren't simulcasted.

And implying this is a bad thing. Streaming is a shit stain if it's not available in 720p.

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Old 07-14-2011, 04:39 PM   #11
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Why does this deserve it's own thread ?

It's not like this is something new, why not Hi444PP?

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Old 07-14-2011, 04:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OniTasku View Post
Haha, my friend zaockle actually called me yesterday during work to tell me about this. This is a pretty major breakthrough, but honestly, it comes down to utilization and knowing the product. I'm sure we can count on fansubbers to use this new technology, but the problem is industry adaptation. If they can encode more for less, it'll likely mean more downscaling to fit even more onto a BD release.
I don't think this will be an issue. x.264 has always had 10bit support, it's just been a matter of having an easy and free implementation for encoders. BDs aren't encodes in the first place, so this won't mean that publishers can squeeze more into BDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reaperunique View Post
Why does this deserve it's own thread ?

It's not like this is something new, why not Hi444PP?
Maybe because it's the equivalent of fansubbers transitioning from XVID/DIVX .avi to H.264 .mkv? And it's actually going to be in use and not a "what if", unlike Hi444PP.

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Old 07-14-2011, 05:13 PM   #13
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Very interesting. I saw this pop up on ryuumaru's site some day ago. I currently use zoom player so I don't know if zoom player supports it and will most likely have to switch over to VLC.

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Old 07-14-2011, 05:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murakazu View Post
Very interesting. I saw this pop up on ryuumaru's site some day ago. I currently use zoom player so I don't know if zoom player supports it and will most likely have to switch over to VLC.
Get CCCP codec pack.

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Old 07-14-2011, 06:05 PM   #15
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I just recently started watching my anime in 720p and can't tell the difference when watching 1080p so this really doesn't peak my interests, but it's always great to know were pushing the bounds of high quality video.

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Old 07-14-2011, 06:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
I don't think this will be an issue. x.264 has always had 10bit support, it's just been a matter of having an easy and free implementation for encoders. BDs aren't encodes in the first place, so this won't mean that publishers can squeeze more into BDs.
10-bit hasn't been used used due to decoding, not encoding, because as you said x264 has had 10-bit support for a while. Also, Blurays are encodes (and some even use x264), but the reason BDs will never use 10-bit is because the specs don't allow it. Perhaps the next physical media storage will include it.

In regards to the death of streaming, it's fairly trivial to encode from 10-bit to 8-bit, so it's very possible re-encode/stream groups will simply transcode the episode to 8-bit before streaming.

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Old 07-14-2011, 06:22 PM   #17
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While this transition occurring, I hope Blu-Ray is upgraded from 8-bit to higher standards or a new disc is made like those protein discs, companies start producing videos with higher color bits to take advantage of "Deep-Color" and "xvYCC" (since even if HDMI advertises that they have it, it doesn't make the best use of it if the video itself was never made in that format and even if you try to add data to the video to include it, it's not as good as what it would have been if it was natively made in those higher standards), HDMI being upgraded again to transport YCbCr 4:2:0 (since Blu Ray seems to transfer data that way and that's the better output, but HDMI can't do it) instead of just YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, upgrade graphic cards to transport raw YCbCr data instead of transferring it to RGB first, make 36 bit deep color (tens of billions) and 48 bit brilliant color (quadrillion(s)) a standard so you can get rid of the need to add dither to anything ever again, etc., etc. go from 8 bit to 16 bit processing, give me my OLED display Sony or someone; Did you all fix the low life expectancy of the blue lights yet?, etc. I could go on.


Honestly, I'm a videophile, so I can see minute changes in what I'm seeing very easily. I mean shoot, look at me using apngs instead of gifs.

Here is a screenshot of an 8-bit encoded video from a Horrible-Subs encode:

Spoiler:


Ah the banding!





Take this screenshot taken directly from the .m2ts video stream from the Disappearance of Haruhi Movie.

Spoiler:


A bit better, but still sucks!




Perhaps I'm talking way ahead of the time, but I'm with the transition to 10 bit mainly because any progression to better video, processing, color, etc. standards is good to me.



Edit:

O and I suppose there's also the fact that any DVD or Blu-Ray ever made cannot matches the video quality produced by the original 35mm film, but yeah, that's enough of that.


Last edited by Destin; 07-14-2011 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 06:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGDArm View Post
10-bit hasn't been used used due to decoding, not encoding, because as you said x264 has had 10-bit support for a while. Also, Blurays are encodes (and some even use x264), but the reason BDs will never use 10-bit is because the specs don't allow it. Perhaps the next physical media storage will include it.
Ah okay, thanks for the correction. Now that I think about it, BDs have to be encodes by nature, since there's no way they could fit the pure work into the BD. I do know that some high budget movies and such are animated in 10bit, but are transcoded into 8bit during the transition to the screen/disc.

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