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Old 06-18-2011, 09:19 PM   #1
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:LOS Minato vs Itachi

Scenario 1:

location: Konoha Crater
Distance: 20 meters
State of Mind: IC
knowledge: None
Restrictions: None


Scenario 2:

location: Konoha Crater
Distance: 20 meters
State of Mind: IC
knowledge: Full
Restrictions: None


Tiebreaker Scenario:

Both are extremely tired from their battle and only have a little chakra left.

location: Konoha Crater
Distance: 15 meters
State of Mind: IC
knowledge: Full
Restrictions: None
Special Note: Itachi has enough chakra to use 2 MS, Minato has enough chakra for a Boss summon and 2 Hirashin teleports.


Last edited by ki0; 06-27-2011 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:19 PM   #2
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Hirashin Level 2 + Rasengan GG.

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Old 06-18-2011, 09:34 PM   #3
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Argument

How to avoid Tsukuyomi and other Sharingan Genjutsu



"Just don't look at his eyes."

How to avoid Amaterasu



"Just look at his eyes and prepare a split-second-super-shunshin."

Moreover, Itachi deflects projectiles, making Hiraishin difficult to utilize to its fullest, and has the best reflexes in the databooks on top of Sharingan precognition, which would allow him to react to Hiraishin. To clarify how Itachi is the best individual to counter Minato's speed: the Sharingan has precognition. It projects where the enemy will move before they move, giving additional time to react. Itachi already has the best reflexes in the databooks, so with precognition he can probably react to stimuli better than anybody else in the manga. However, Hiraishin is exempt from precognition due to translocation, but since the Sharingan can also see chakra, he would be able to see Minato gather chakra to activate Hiraishin before Minato actually uses Hiraishin.



As for Gambabuta, if he does enter the battle, then Itachi can control him, and Minato may have to place that unique seal that he placed on Tobi to take Gambabuta back, which would be no easy feat at all. Sasuke directly stated that Itachi had the ability, but that it was stronger than his own at the time, being able to control the Nine Tails. It is the same ability, according to the databook, and common misnomer is that the power is an illusion, or that the summons are being tricked, is incorrect. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control through willpower:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Databook III
[Eye power]
The main reason why the "Sharingan" was feared by everyone, including the inhabitants of the village, is the power hidden in those eyes, able to subdue even "bijuu". Sasuke, who is rapidly mastering his skills as an Uchiha, is also gradually awakening to that cursed power. (balloons: "Those eyes... How did you dare... control me... with those eyes...!") The ultimate power of the "Sharingan", that once could tame even the "Kyuubi". A portion of it is visible in Sasuke when he is able to control Manda.
As for the forever-hyped Food-Cart-Destroyer, please note: Jiriaya is confirmed to possess Yatai Kazushi, but said that his senbon technique was his fastest attack that covered a large range i.e. his hardest jutsu to evade, which is why he retreated after. Now, the databook text does say "right above". However, it means right above as "in a straight line above". The Japanese word is 真上 (ma-ue). There is no implication of distance, other than the mentioned several hundred-foot dive. This is why it has only ever been used on giant creatures, and not tiny ninja, because the ninja have a great deal more time to react.



A popular argument is that Minato would warp various things back at Itachi. I disagree because he he had a whole tailed-beast-bomb charge-time of preparation across the city. It's just not feasible for Amaterasu or the Totsuka.



And then there's Susano'o, and clones. Itachi and Minato are both outliers in their specialties of speed and genjutsu, but Itachi is better rounded, and actually has counters to speed. Minato has none for genjutsu, aside from fan faith. That isn't to say that Minato is "elementary" in genjutsu defense. He could have 5/5 genjutsu proficiency and knowledge, as Orochimaru had. Itachi is thought to be better at genjutsu than Madara, and was paralyzing masters at age 11. The Madara-didn't-use-genjutsu argument is my favorite for Minato's genjutsu immunity though, as it indicates Torune, Fū, and Shino are all immune to genjutsu.



As for Kakashi hyping Minato... first, chapter-context would indicate that Kakashi was speaking of surpassing the 4th in Rasengan-development due to Naruto's clone-training method. Naruto brings it up before using the half-complete FRS. However, something tells me that if Kakashi knew that a prepubescent Itachi had humiliated the man he once feared, then he wouldn't have said pre-Sage Naruto was the only one with potential to surpass the 4th, even in terms of Rasengan. Ultimately, I think Sasuke and Naruto are supposed to be viewed as rough equals, as are Minato and Itachi. But Itachi wins this one.


Last edited by Strategoob; 06-21-2011 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 06-18-2011, 09:42 PM   #4
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Minato is faster than Itachi and if he even touches Itachi big toe with a tag its death for Itachi.

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Old 06-18-2011, 09:53 PM   #5
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yeah. i think the 4th has this one i think. the more i see him in fights, the more i'm impressed. FTG/Rasengan------aaaand boom goes the dynamite

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Old 06-18-2011, 09:54 PM   #6
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Minato is fast enough to null out both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, but he has nothing to counter Susanoo (besides RDS, but then it's a draw)

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Old 06-18-2011, 09:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato Namikaze05 View Post
yeah. i think the 4th has this one i think. the more i see him in fights, the more i'm impressed. FTG/Rasengan------aaaand boom goes the dynamite
but honestly.

With Full knowledge, Itachi would want to activate Susano'o right away which in turn would wear down his chakra. And Minato would jump around avoiding eye contact, amaterasu, and Susano'o. Chakra drains from Itachi, and he's done.

With no knowledge, FTG + Rasengan = GG kiddo.

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Old 06-18-2011, 10:12 PM   #8
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For the record, I believe Itachi and Minato are on the same "tier" of strength, above most everybody else, but below the likes of Pain, Kabuto, Madara, and endgame Sasuke and Naruto. But Itachi is a bad match for Minato. Ninjutsu and taijutsu would be completely useless on Minato's agility... but the best genjutsu user ever, even better than Tobi, Shisui, etc., can believably bring him down. On top of that, Itachi also has confirmed top tier reflexes, on top of general Sharingan precognition. He is therefore better suited to countering Minato's speed-reliant offense than anybody else in the manga. Itachi, too, is in Minato's ballpark of intelligence, unlike most everybody else.


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Old 06-18-2011, 10:27 PM   #9
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food cart destroyer, itachi perhaps dodges(assuming he can move from its huge size in time), minato appears behind him with a rasengan. over.

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Old 06-18-2011, 10:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos View Post
For the record, I believe Itachi and Minato are on the same "tier" of strength, above most everybody else, but below the likes of Pain, Kabuto, Madara, and endgame Sasuke and Naruto. But Itachi is a bad match for Minato. Ninjutsu and taijutsu would be completely useless on Minato's agility... but the best genjutsu user ever, even better than Tobi, Shisui, etc., can believably bring him down. On top of that, Itachi also has confirmed top tier reflexes, on top of general Sharingan precognition. He is therefore better suited to countering Minato's speed-reliant offense than anybody else in the manga. Itachi, too, is in Minato's ballpark of intelligence, unlike most everybody else.
Sasuke injuring Itachi contradict what you are trying to say , Selim

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Old 06-18-2011, 10:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos View Post
You'd have to wait another two months for truly ambivalent opinions, assuming Edo Itachi doesn't fight in the next eight chapters, but nevertheless, I think Itachi wins due to the following:

How to avoid Tsukuyomi and other Sharingan Genjutsu



"Just don't look at his eyes."

How to avoid Amaterasu



"Just look at his eyes and prepare a split-second-super-shunshin."

Moreover, Itachi deflects projectiles, making Hiraishin difficult to utilize to its fullest, and has the best reflexes in the databooks on top of Sharingan precognition, which would allow him to react to Hiraishin.



As for Gambabuta, if he does enter the battle, then Itachi can control him, and Minato may have to place that unique seal that he placed on Tobi to take Gambabuta back, which would be no easy feat at all.



Sasuke directly stated that Itachi had the ability, but that it was stronger than his own at the time, being able to control the Nine Tails. It is the same ability, according to the databook:



The common misnomer is that the power is genjutsu, or that the summons are being tricked. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control through willpower.



A popular argument is that Minato would warp various things back at Itachi. I disagree because he he had a whole tailed-beast-bomb charge-time of preparation across the city. It's not feasible for Amaterasu or the Totsuka.



And then there's Susano'o, and clones. Itachi and Minato are both outliers in their specialties of speed and genjutsu, but Itachi is better rounded, and actually has counters to speed. Minato has none for genjutsu, aside from fan faith.
/thread.


Itachi takes first scenario with mild difficulty. Genjutsu GG.

Second scenario goes to Itachi aswell. Even with full knowledge, Itachi's arsenal is hard to avoid. But Minato is a one trick pony. For someone who knows the mechanics of Hirashin it isn't hard to stay out of its reach.

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Old 06-18-2011, 11:32 PM   #12
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1
minato attacks a crow clone and is placed under an illusion. itachi wins.

2
minato summons death, while itachi summons his susano. death rips out susano. but itachi can reform it again. while death is taking his time chowing down on red spirit chakra meat, susano reforms, and itachi does the link spin attack after he charges it up. as minato gets sealed into the sword, death says screw you to susano and starts pulling at minato as well. the tug of war ends when itachi cancels his susano, and minato becomes a soul jelly sandwich. itachi wins again.

personally i would like to see kishi's viewpoint on how death would combat susano. two spirits duking it out would be interesting

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Old 06-19-2011, 12:07 AM   #13
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I see this going one of three ways.

1. Minato uses Hiraishin V2 and Rasengan combo and OHKO's.
2. Itachi activates MS before Minato can kill him and catches him in Tsukuyomi.
3. Itachi activates MS before Minato can kill him but Minato avoids Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and Itachi uses Susano'o which Minato outlasts and then wins.

Minato 7/10.

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Old 06-19-2011, 12:32 AM   #14
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So the rape threads have begun. Let me point out the fact that since Minato blitzed the shit out of Bee and A that feat basically shits on everybody else speed up to date. Except for Madara. The point I am making is basically in every Minato thread it will end with his opponent getting blitzed and sealed.

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Old 06-19-2011, 12:57 AM   #15
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minato uses the field of tags and catches itachi behind and kills him. Not knowing he wont expect it and if susanoo comes out its to late his dead.

With knowledge then itachi would put up susanoo before hand to evade tag and try to catch minato with genjutsu.

TBH only way itachi can win is genjutsu and i dont see him making contact with it with minato speed. Only way to catch is to catch him on the attack and seeing itachi reflex it might be possible.

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Old 06-19-2011, 03:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namikaze Minato View Post
Hirashin Level 2 + Rasengan GG.
And then Minato won all of Naruto

Ninjutsu

Minato has the speed to evade just about every Ninjutsu Itachi throws at him. Goukakyuu no Jutsu, Bunshin Daibakuha, a flurry of kunai, he can Shunshin and evade them all. If he has Hiraishin set up (read: he has Hiraishin set up) the he's even more untouchable by normal Ninjutsu. There's no two ways around it. He probably still can't see Itachi's handseals but that's an issue for the speed stat below (until then, have a nice cup of rage Minatotards). On the other hand, Itachi is fast enough to dodge basic Rasengan attacks and he can use his Sharingan to control summons, rendering them pretty useless. Considering their fighting styles and speed, summons are basically little more than lumbering moving platforms here. Yatai Kuzushi is the only jutsu that might work, but Itachi's fast enough to Shunshin away and dodge it.

Obviously what makes Minato so insanely dangerous (as opposed to just plain dangerous) is Hiraishin no Jutsu. He can dodge every single one of Itachi's attacks with this thing. Pretty easily too. The only possible exception is Amaterasu as it took someone with superior reflexes (Ei) to anticipate it and aimdodge it. Even then however if he keeps using Hiraishin to teleport around the battlefield Minato can make it so he's never in one place long enough for Itachi to focus on him, rendering the jutsu moot.

His space/time barrier is not likely to get any use here however. He's arguably not reflexive enough to anticipate Amaterasu, the one jutsu it will be useful on (seriously, why bother with a Goukakyuu no Jutsu?) and requires Itachi to be standing near another tag for it to work (more on that later). Both are unlikely conditions to be met. It might be useful for opening up a hole in Susanoo, but Itachi can move and fight Minato in hand to hand combat, or redirect kunai to behind him to force him to cancel the jutsu or get hit. Speaking of Susanoo, Minato should be able to evade it's attacks pretty easily. Absurd speed and instant teleportation will do that for you. In this battle Susanoo will be almost purely defensive.

On the other hand Hiraishin will be difficult to use for attack as Itachi can always pop Susanoo to defend himself. Minato is not faster than lightning, so he should be capable of using it to defend himself when Minato appears behind him kunai/Rasengan first. He also has to stand next to a tag for this to happen, which is unlikely in the first place. What's more, Itachi can always simply keep kunai away from him by deflecting them with his own kunai. He has after all got some of the best, if not the best kunai throwing feats in the manga.

Overall I'd say the two stalemate in Ninjutsu. And I very rarely say that.

Taijutsu

Itachi has proven skill in the field, Minato does not. I therefore have to give Itachi the win here. Not that it matters much considering Minato can at any moment disappear with Hiraishin and Itachi can pull Susanoo out.

Genjutsu

Obviously Minato has Genjutsu defenses, but nobody has ever said and he has never performed any feats that indicate he can survive Itachi level Genjutsu. And no, Madara not using Genjutsu is not proof he's godlike at disrupting it. Genjutsu should be effective on him and Tsukuyomi should defeat him.

Itachi is the obvious winner here.

Intelligence

Both are geniuses beyond geniuses. Could go either way. Crucially however, Minato won't figure out the power of Itachi's Genjutsu to avoid eye contact in Scenario 1. Nor is it likely he will realise that blood tears=super fire appearing on his person (though he will surely realise that they indicate something is coming). Itachi on the other hand, has Susanoo to allow him to survive the first Hiraishin attack, after which the secret of the tags will almost certainly be revealed to him.

Strength

Probably about the same.

Speed

Minato's got better movement feats, but Itachi's reactions are probably faster. Reacting to Kirin in itself is insane, but basic logic also supports this. Both are Tier 5 in speed, one slightly faster than the other, but one has magic super eyes that give a huge boost to their reactions. Logically which is going to have superior reactions? This is mostly academic however as both can react to the other's attacks with jutsu that activate at the speed of thought. Directly attacking Minato with anything short of Amaterasu can result in him just laughing and teleporting away, while Itachi can always pop Susanoo to defend himself.

Stamina

Minato almost certainly has the advantage here. He should be able to outlast Itachi.

Analysis

Scenario 1

No knowledge is crucial. I don't see why this battle won't start with Itachi using Genjutsu as always...and I don't see why it won't end with this either. Not one character statement or feat indicates Minato can deal with Itachi level Genjutsu any better than any other Kage level opponent. Tsukuyomi is overkill. Ignoring these any initial skirmish will probably result in Itachi using Susanoo fairly quickly as Minato will probably manage to use Hiraishin to attack him. I say probably because Itachi is smart and would probably recognise that every time Minato magically moves from point A to point B he is always moving between weird kunai. However, he may not realise Minato is using the tags, not the kunai in particular, to do this. Regardless, Susanoo will defend him. But for the duration of the battle Itachi stays away from the tags we'll see Minato casually dodging everything Itachi has and making hit and run attacks that are useless because Itachi is fast enough to keep up with him. In the end this would come down to "can Minato deal with Amaterasu?" Without knowledge I'd say maybe at best, which immediatley places the advantage in Itachi's hands. He also has to deal with Genjutsu during this as well, further putting him at disadvantage.

Scenario 2

Minato will immediately avoid eye contact and I suspect both will jump to MS and Hiraishin attacks immediately. The problem is Itachi won't stay near the tags while Minato will be constantly teleporting aorund to avoid Amaterasu. The solution to this stalemate? Itachi creating a ring of fire around the battlefield with Amaterasu and then staying away from the tags. The spreading flames will undoubtably overcome the battlefield, meaning Minato's tags will be slowly destroyed. His only recourse is to try and teleport the flames with his barrier or get over the ring of fire to escape them, both of which leave him either immobile or an easy target. And one of those options isn't even necessarily feasable.

Evaluation

This comes down to how effective Itachi's Genjutsu is and how Minato, if he wants to deal with Amaterasu, has to either waste lots of chakra or risk Genjutsu. In the end I have to give this to Itachi because while Minato has these major, very deadly problems to deal with, Itachi's only problem is reacting to Hiraishin. Which he almost certainly can do thanks to Susanoo. Minato's only real chances of victory are Shiki Fuujin (which...isn't a victory at all) or outlasting Itachi. But he has to keep up the pressure to ensure Itachi maintains Susanoo or this won't work. And this is kind of hard when he needs Hiraishin to force Susanoo and Itachi will either figure out or know from the start to avoid the tags.

Itachi wins high difficulty 8/10.

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Old 06-19-2011, 04:45 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namikaze Minato View Post
Hirashin Level 2 + Rasengan GG.
Only to find his face being burned off by Amaterasu.

It depends on who hits the other first, since it'll probably end in the first move.

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Old 06-19-2011, 09:23 AM   #18
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heres another way minato wins


Minato tosses all kunai at itachi. Itachi cant dodge them, or he dies by V2 hiraishin. He has to resort to deflecting them, assuming he can. Once busy with that, minato simply shunshins behind with a rasengan. Itachi leaving himself open with deflections is a bad idea against someone as fast as minato.


Susanoo - If by some chance he manages to use this at the last second(assuming he has time, which i doubt it since he's busy deflecting kunai) minato would have marked it with his hand. Same way he marked the tentacle in the same motion, same way he marked madara in the same rasengan motion. Once that happens. Itachi is done. Minato teleports inside and finishes itachi.

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Old 06-19-2011, 09:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strategos View Post
You'd have to wait another two months for truly ambivalent opinions, assuming Edo Itachi doesn't fight in the next eight chapters, but nevertheless, I think Itachi wins due to the following:

How to avoid Tsukuyomi and other Sharingan Genjutsu



"Just don't look at his eyes."

How to avoid Amaterasu



"Just look at his eyes and prepare a split-second-super-shunshin."

Moreover, Itachi deflects projectiles, making Hiraishin difficult to utilize to its fullest, and has the best reflexes in the databooks on top of Sharingan precognition, which would allow him to react to Hiraishin.



As for Gambabuta, if he does enter the battle, then Itachi can control him, and Minato may have to place that unique seal that he placed on Tobi to take Gambabuta back, which would be no easy feat at all.



Sasuke directly stated that Itachi had the ability, but that it was stronger than his own at the time, being able to control the Nine Tails. It is the same ability, according to the databook:



The common misnomer is that the power is genjutsu, or that the summons are being tricked. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control through willpower.



A popular argument is that Minato would warp various things back at Itachi. I disagree because he he had a whole tailed-beast-bomb charge-time of preparation across the city. It's not feasible for Amaterasu or the Totsuka.



And then there's Susano'o, and clones. Itachi and Minato are both outliers in their specialties of speed and genjutsu, but Itachi is better rounded, and actually has counters to speed. Minato has none for genjutsu, aside from fan faith.
Strategos hit the nail right on the head and covered pretty much everything. There's nothing left to say, really.

Without knowledge, I think Itachi's chances are favored here. Minato is very likely to eat Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu without prior knowledge of those Jutsu. Itachi, on the other hand, has excellent reflexes and Sharingan, as well as an omnidirectional defense to protect him from fast opponents coming from all directions, so simply confounding and speedblitzing him- which is Minato's primary style of fighting -isn't going to work at all.

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Old 06-19-2011, 10:48 AM   #20
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What do you think about the 2nd scenario Nikushimi?

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