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Old 02-13-2011, 09:45 PM   #1
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Redarrow [Great Debate] Jiraiya vs. Itachi

Jiraiya vs. Itachi




Location:
Konoha Canal.

Distance:
Medium (~50m).

State of Mind:
In character.

Knowledge:
Manga.

Restrictions:
Itachi's health is as it was during his battle with Sasuke.

Special Conditions:
None.

*

Team Jiraiya
1. Marco
2. Cyphon
3. Turrin

Team Itachi
1. Nikushimi
2. Strategos
3. Vergil642

Adjudicators
Suu
Akitō
Winchester Gospel

*

For information regarding our rules and guidelines, please see this post. All discussion of the debate must go to the Discussion Thread.

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Old 02-13-2011, 09:54 PM   #2
Marco
of the Rebellion
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Default First Speaker for Team Jiraiya

Introduction


Greetings to all those reading and welcome to the First Great Debate here on Naruto Forums. I’m honored to be a part of this event and I’d like to thank all of those who put forth my name for this. I’d also like to thank the adjudicators and the potential voters for setting aside their time so as to go through this speech.

Jiraiya vs Itachi. This particular debate is the most controversial as well as the most popular debate on this board, if not among all Naruto readers. This debate has been going on for years and has shown no signs of ending. Selecting this matchup for the first Great Debate event was an obvious choice. This brings me to my first point. Something I’d like to remind everyone before proceeding with my speech. This event isn’t being held to end this debate once and for all. It’s being held for entertainment, fun, and to set a good example of how to debate. If my team were to win this debate, it does not mean that Jiraiya is the victor. And I’d like to urge every voter to keep this in mind when they place a vote.

Before me and my prestigious opponents get into the richer parts of this debate, I'd like to state who I feel is stronger among the two. Of course, the stronger person may not win the battle. However, I'd like to walk all the spectators through my particular line of thought on this topic. But first, I'd like for each and every one of you to try and set aside what opinions you already have on this subject for just the length of this speech. Many of you would obviously disagree with me while many of you would nod in utter agreement to every point I make. It'd be very kind of you if you could just read through this speech entirely and try to understand my point of view even if the little voice inside your head tells you I'm completely wrong.

Now that that’s done, I shall continue. I firmly believe that Jiraiya and Itachi are equals and that a battle between them would be close irrespective of the victor. My reasons aren’t just limited to what techniques these two have displayed throughout the manga, either. I’d like to highlight the reasons why I believe so.

First and foremost, I’d like to direct everybody’s attention to one of the most famous and controversial conversations in Naruto. This happens when Itachi and Kisame come to Konoha and then find out that Jiraiya is protecting Naruto.

“If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least we'd hurt each other badly.” ~ Itachi

Itachi’s words seem to indicate that he believed that a fight between him and Jiraiya would end in both of them killing each other or at least hurting each other badly. Just from this statement, it’s at least clear that Itachi considered Jiraiya on his level if not stronger. And he got this just from Jiraiya’s reputation as a Sannin and the ninjas Jiraiya must’ve defeated over time. One could argue that Itachi was lying because he didn’t want to capture Naruto or kill Jiraiya; but if that were the case, wouldn’t it make more sense for Itachi to say that he’d lose to Jiraiya? However, we can’t completely rule out the possibility that Itachi was lying.

Second, I’d like to point Jiraiya and Itachi’s parallel to Naruto and Sasuke. Both Jiraiya and Naruto use Sage Mode while both Itachi and Sasuke use Mangekyo Sharingan. Sage Mode Naruto and Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke were implied to be equals several times in the manga. This again indicates that Jiraiya and Itachi were equals.

Third, I’d like to point out the Databook totals of each ninja. Both Jiraiya’s and Itachi’s databook stats give us a total of 35.5. Of course, databook stats’ totals don’t tell us the level of ninjas. I merely point this out as just another one of the small indications that the author has presented us with to establish Jiraiya and Itachi’s equality. He could just have easily have given one of the two higher stat totals but he didn’t.

These are some of the things that indicate the two ninjas being on the same level. You’re free to disagree and I’m sure many of you will but this is my opinion on this subject. I’ll also admit that these points are not irrefutable. They aren’t proof of anything. But evidence to support a claim.


Knowledge is a weapon


Jiraiya is one of Konoha’s most experienced ninjas. He’s finished over a thousand missions and fought as a Konoha shinobi in the Second Great Ninja War. He’s also got a very impressive information network. It’s likely that he has fought alongside Uchihas in the past.

Jiraiya trusted Kakashi to take care of Naruto and often exchanged intelligence with him. He saw Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and if he didn’t figure out it was a dojutsu himself, he would certainly have found this out from Kakashi later. This is because Kakashi would have tried to pass on everything he knew about Itachi to Jiraiya in case Itachi came back to capture Naruto. This means it’s extremely likely that Kakashi told Jiraiya that it was the Mangekyo Sharingan which gave Itachi access to the Tsukuyomi. Jiraiya would’ve likely told Kakashi about the black flames too but it’s not necessary that they would’ve figured out it was a dojutsu back then. However, Kakashi awakened Mangekyo too during the timeskip and after realizing the extent of the Mangekyo’s power, he might have deduced that the black flames were also a result of Itachi’s Mangekyo.

Jiraiya and Kakashi met once again after Naruto’s training was over and would have exchanged all new information. With the knowledge that Mangekyo grants one powerful techniques and that Itachi used black inextinguishable flames, it’s likely that he would’ve told Jiraiya about the black flames being a power of the Mangekyo (if he himself had figured it out). Kakashi would have probably also told Jiraiya that Itachi used suitons. Jiraiya also exchanged intel with Tsunade and Tsunade would have certainly found out what everyone in Konoha knew about Itachi throughout her tenure as the Hokage.

So we know for certain that Jiraiya knew Itachi was a genjutsu master, had Tsukuyomi, used a jutsu involving very powerful inextinguishable black flames. And keeping all the above in mind, it’s extremely likely that Jiraiya knew Amaterasu was a dojutsu and that Itachi used suitons as well.


Countering Itachi’s techniques


First, I want to talk a little about Jiraiya’s specific style of fighting and how he has been portrayed in the manga. His showing in Amegakure showed that he has a large variety of jutsu and he seems to have an answer to everything his opponent throws at him. His fighting style revolves around countering the opponent. He noticed Konan was made of paper, deduced her weakness immediately, and defeated her within seconds of her initiating the fight. When Animal Realm camouflaged himself, Jiraiya used a barrier that detected movements. When Jiraiya realized the Pain Realms were too strong as a team, he quickly devised a method to attack them one-on-one.
So when Jiraiya faces Itachi, he’ll again devise a strategy to counter Itachi’s expertise, i.e. genjutsu. He would try to avoid eye contact. He would summon toads or make Kage Bunshins to act as partners. He would keep the battle long ranged so that it’s easier to fight while avoiding eye contact. He would flank Itachi. Lots of options and he would try to take advantage of all of those. He would also be ready for a jutsu involving black flames if not a doujutsu.

Sharingan genjutsu and Tsukuyomi

With a few Kage Bunshins fighting alongside Jiraiya, Itachi wouldn’t risk wasting a Tsukuyomi on a Kage Bunshin. And if Itachi used regular genjutsu on a Kage Bunshin, he’d be open to attack by the others. If he got the real Jiraiya under genjutsu, the Kage Bunshins would be able to break Jiraiya out. Toads could also be used. By summoning a giant toad, Jiraiya can effectively keep distance indefinitely. Jutsus like Gamayu Endan and Suiton: Teppodama would be incredibly useful for this as well. If Jiraiya wants to stay away, Itachi cannot do much about it. All this greatly reduces the effectiveness of Tsukuyomi and regular genjutsu and makes it extremely unlikely that these jutsu would come to fruition. Besides this, one could argue that Jiraiya could fight with his eyes closed and using his motion sensing barrier thereby nullifying Itachi’s genjutsu.

And once Jiraiya’s in Sage Mode, he has an even better chance of avoiding genjutsu. Since Fukasaku and Shima are fused to him and keep pumping natural energy into him, it’s very likely that he’s practically immune to genjutsu. If Itachi’s still capable of putting Jiraiya under genjutsu, there’s still the fact that Fukasaku and Shima can protect him and easily break him out of it.

Amaterasu

Amaterasu summons black flames wherever Itachi focuses his eye. Wherever his eye goes, the flames follow. Because the flames are summoned directly at the target, it is very unlikely that a person will be able to avoid this jutsu. However, the flames can only be summoned at less than 5 m from Itachi. If the target is beyond 5 meters, the flames have to travel through the air to reach him/her. This means that the farther the target, the better his chances of avoiding or blocking the flames.

Kage Bunshins would make Itachi weary of using this jutsu to avoid wasting it. If Jiraiya is far enough, he can deflect the flames using his hair or block them by summoning a shield toad. One might question whether Jiraiya would be ready to sacrifice a toad but I’d like to remind everyone that Jiraiya would likely not know that the flames will go through said shield. If nothing, it should mean that Jiraiya is likely to use a shield toad to block them at least once. While Itachi is focusing on one target, his attention is completely on that particular target. This makes him open to a flank attack. And Jiraiya or a Kage Bunshin can hold Itachi back while one of them seals the flames. Using his hair or a toad to block Amaterasu gives a Kage Bunshin or toad the opportunity and time to attack Itachi and this gives them the opportunity to seal the flames. Using Amaterasu strains Itachi and every time he has to waste one Amaterasu, it’ll cost him dearly.

Once Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, his speed is that much faster and he gets access to jutsus that should further help him in defending against Amaterasu. He should be fast enough to outrun Amaterasu for a while and he should be able to hold back Amaterasu for some time (if not indefinitely) with Goemon.

Susano’o

Susano’o is Itachi’s most powerful jutsu. It summons a giant warrior who wields the legendary items Sword of Totsuka and Yata’s Mirror. The Susanoo in itself acts as a shield but when it wields the Yata’s Mirror, it’s practically impenetrable by any ninjutsu or physical attacks. There’s no doubt that Itachi’s Susano’o is a fearsome jutsu and would create problems for Jiraiya.

However, Itachi uses this jutsu as a last resort and its primary purpose is defense. If Itachi uses Susano’o and Jiraiya attacks it once or twice, Jiraiya would know it’s practically impervious to ninjutsu and physical attacks. And once Susano’o takes out the sword, Jiraiya would also know to keep distance. Summoning a toad under him and having it jump back is very viable and effective measure to quickly get away from Susano’o. Itachi can also not maintain Susano’o for long and Jiraiya should be easily able to keep away from it on a giant toad. Jiraiya could also use Doton: Yomi Numa, which would sink Itachi along with the Susano’o. If Itachi is able to escape the swamp using Susano’o, he’d still have put a lot of strain on himself. Jiraiya can also use Magen: Gamarinsho. This would bypass the Susano’o as it is a genjutsu. Magen: Gamarinsho requires prep but considering Itachi would be very fatigued while using Susano’o and keeping in mind the mobility of the giant toads, Jiraiya shouldn’t have much trouble keeping his distance and preparing Magen: Gamarinsho.
Once Magen Gamarinsho is initiated, it’s over for Itachi. It paralyzes the mind as well as the body, uses sage chakra, and is not a doujutsu which makes it extremely unlikely that Itachi would be able to break out of it. Even if Itachi could break out of it, this would still require time; and in that time, Jiraiya should be able to easily kill Itachi with many of his ranged attacks.

All of Itachi’s Mangekyo Sharingan dojutsu put a huge strain on Itachi and this is something that is very favourable to Jiraiya. Itachi’s chakra reserves are very limited compared to Jiraiya and Jiraiya can easily outlast him in most, if not all, scenarios. Every shot of Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi that Itachi misses and every second that Itachi has to keep Susano’o active is going to put a huge strain on Itachi and make the remaining battle that much harder for him.


Jiraiya’s might


Jiraiya has a large variety of attacks that make him one of the most versatile ninjas in the manga. This battle will be no different.

Kuchiyose no jutsu

Jiraiya has access to a multitude of toads that aid him in battle. Toads to shield against attacks, toads to hide and infiltrate, toads to trap enemies, toads to distract enemies, etc. The toads grant him a lot of versatility and are a great asset. After all, Jiraiya was known as the Toad Hermit. These toads are going to be a great help against Itachi. They give him numbers which are very useful against Uchihas. The giant toads would be very problematic for Itachi to deal with. Bunta is one of Jiraiya’s greatest weapons. He has very powerful long range attacks like Suiton: Teppodama and Gamayu Endan (combination attack with Jiraiya). Atop a giant toad, Jiraiya can basically keep Itachi away as long as he wants. But the greatest use that Jiraiya makes of Kuchiyose no jutsu is to summon Fukasaku and Shima who allow him to enter Sage Mode.

Gamaguchi Shibari

Jiraiya summons the esophagus of a Fire Breathing Mountain toad. This is very sticky and restricts the opponent’s movement. It also engulfs the opponent and they end up in the stomach of the mountain toad, where they are digested. This jutsu is at its 100% effectiveness when in a confined space. But it can still be used in open spaces and should be very useful to restrict the opponent’s mobility.

Ranjishigami no jutsu

A jutsu that allows Jiraiya to manipulate his hair to attack the enemy. His hair is incredibly strong and is able to casually hold back a giant summon. It is also very fast and has a very long range. In CQC, there’s not much chance that Jiraiya’s opponent can dodge this attack. Especially since Jiraiya can freely manipulate the hair strands separately. So even if the opponent is fast, the hair would come in from all sides and keep going after the target. If Itachi is attacked with this, it’d be very hard for him to avoid it and he’d likely have to use Amaterasu to burn the hair or Susano’o to defend himself. And if Itachi is caught in it, he’d be pierced by the hair everywhere and be killed unless Itachi is capable of using mini Susano’o or willing to risk getting burned by Amaterasu himself while trying to free himself using it.

Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi no jutsu

Jiraiya summons a toad in the air right above the enemy. A giant toad summoned right above the enemy is extremely dangerous as the opponent would have no indication of this happening and the summoning would be instant. After that, the opponent has mere fractions of a second to avoid the giant toad or mount some kind of defense. If Jiraiya were to use this on Itachi, Itachi would most probably have to resort to Susano’o to survive or risk getting squashed.

Doton: Yomi Numa

A technique that changes the ground into a swamp. The opponent is sunk deep underground. The adhesive chakra infused mud ensnares the enemy and makes it practically impossible for someone to escape. The size and depth depends on the skill of the user and the amount of chakra used. A drugged Jiraiya who couldn’t even control his chakra properly was able to make a swamp big enough to partially sink a giant snake and he still called it tiny. This indicates that Jiraiya is capable of making significantly larger swamps. Itachi doesn’t really have a way to avoid this jutsu. If Jiraiya uses this, Itachi will be ensnared in the swamp with no means to escape. Even using Susano’o might not help. And even if Susano’o is able to save Itachi from the swamp, one must realize that a jutsu that Jiraiya can use relatively easily forced Itachi to use his most taxing and powerful jutsu.

Gamadaira Kage Ayusuri no jutsu

This jutsu allows Jiraiya to become a shadow. Jiraiya can also use this jutsu to turn into a shadow and hide in someone else’s shadow. If Jiraiya does so, he gets complete control over the target. So anytime Jiraiya and Itachi are engaged in CQC, Jiraiya has the opportunity to take over Itachi’s body and mind by using this jutsu.

Kekkai: Tangai Hojin

Using this, a spherical barrier is constructed around Jiraiya. Any movement within this barrier can be sensed by Jiraiya. This means that Jiraiya can arguably fight with his eyes closed and hence make Itachi’s genjutsu useless.

Sage Mode

Sage Mode is Jiraiya’s most useful jutsu. By summoning the great Sage Toads Fukasaku and Shima and then fusing with them; Jiraiya can enter Sage Mode by building up Sage chakra. This mode greatly increases Jiraiya’s strength, speed, and durability. Besides this, it greatly increases the potency of Jiraiya’s ninjutsu. And with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders, Jiraiya gets access to some very powerful techniques like Goemon, Zessenzan, Zessenbaku. It also makes Jiraiya arguably immune to genjutsu. Between the added speed, the more powerful jutsu, and a very effective counter to genjutsu; Sage Mode Jiraiya becomes very well suited to fight Itachi. Jiraiya also gets access to some very useful jutsu like Senpo: Fuuton Sunabokori which can block Itachi’s LOS while Jiraiya can still fight using his motion sensing barrier.

Goemon

By combining katon, fuuton, and oil; Jiraiya and the two sage toads create a giant lake of burning oil which is being further strengthened by wind. This jutsu is practically unavoidable since even if you dodge it by jumping up, you’d still have to land somewhere on it. Itachi’s only means of surviving this jutsu would be to use Susano’o or if he could use Amaterasu for long enough to hold back the lake of fire. If hit by this, Itachi would have no means of surviving except using Susano’o.

Magen Gamarinsho

The only genjutsu in Jiraiya’s repertoire. And one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence. It paralyzes the body and the mind of the target. It is used by Fukasaku and Shima by singing a special song and harmonizing their voices. Since this genjutsu paralyzes the mind of the target, uses sage chakra, and is not a dojutsu; it’s very unlikely that Itachi would be able to break out of it. But even if Itachi could break out of it, that would still require some time; and in that time, Jiraiya could easily kill a defenceless Itachi . However, it has some drawbacks. Firstly, it requires some preparation time and secondly, it can be only used once a day.

As one can see, Jiraiya has a lot of jutsu that would force Itachi to use Susano’o. And in the same vein, Jiraiya has options to avoid Susano’o. With every second that Itachi uses MS, he puts himself at a disadvantage. Jiraiya’s superior chakra reserves mean he could easily outlast Itachi in this manner.


The Overall Battle


The battle happens in Konoha Canal. The starting distance is 50 meters and both the ninjas are In Character. And the knowledge granted is according to the manga.

Close Quarters Combat

Many people believe that Itachi is too fast compared to Jiraiya and hence give Itachi the advantage in taijutsu. I’d like to point out that this isn’t very accurate. Itachi is no doubt faster than Jiraiya and has the sharingan to aid him but he is not so much faster that Jiraiya is completely overwhelmed. Jiraiya’s speed is comparable to Sasuke and Kakashi as indicated in their Databook stats where all three of them have a 4.5 in speed. Sasuke and Kakashi were able to keep up with Itachi which means Jiraiya shouldn’t have that much of a problem either. On top of this, Jiraiya also possesses jutsus that will aid him in holding Itachi back. Jiraiya also casually dodged an attack of Konan’s and attacked her before she could even try to dodge. This is the same Konan that kept up with Tobi.

Besides speed, Jiraiya has various jutsu that will aid him in taking down Itachi in close range. He can use jutsus like Gamaguchi Shibari and Doton: Yomi Numa to restrict Itachi’s movement and can use his hair to both attack and defend. Jiraiya’s also stronger than Itachi and would dominate if he got Itachi in a clinch. Jiraiya also has the option to use toads so as to get the numbers advantage and for defense. A jutsu like Rasengan would also be fatal to Itachi. With a few Kage Bunshins and toads assisting Jiraiya, he’d be able to deal with Itachi’s genjutsu quite well even at short range. I’ll admit that Itachi would have the advantage in CQC due to genjutsu and the speed advantage though. And I also believe that Jiraiya would also conclude this quickly and know to keep the battle long ranged. It’s unlikely that Itachi would use any of his Mangekyo jutsu early in the match and this is a good thing for Jiraiya because at short range, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu become a lot more dangerous.

Once Jiraiya reaches Sage Mode, Jiraiya gets a significant boost to his strength, speed, durability, and stamina. His speed should become equal if not more than Itachi’s. And his strength would be such that even a single hit would cripple, if not kill, Itachi. He would also have a lot more powerful jutsu at his disposal like Katon Dai Endan, Senpo: Kebari Senbon, Zessenzan, Zessenbaku, etc. He’d also be pretty much immune to sharingan genjutsu. At least base if not Tsukuyomi. Itachi’s only chance would be the Mangekyo and Itachi is more likely to use MS against Sage Jiraiya than Base Jiraiya.

Mid Ranged Combat

Farther than CQC but not entirely long ranged, Jiraiya would have the edge here. He’d be far enough that he would have it easier to avoid genjutsu as well as use his ranged attacks. None of Itachi’s base attacks is going to trouble Jiraiya much except for an exploding bunshin getting too close. And even that might be defended against by Hari Jizo. Itachi’s katons and suitons should also be avoidable or blockable via Hari Jizo or shield toad.

Jiraiya and a few Kage Bunshins should be able to get the upper hand against Itachi. The Kage Bunshins and distance would make it unlikely that Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi would be successful and if Itachi resorts to Susano’o, Jiraiya can always fall back. One might argue that Itachi’s speed advantage would allow him to close in and use genjutsu on Jiraiya but this is inaccurate. As I remarked above, Itachi isn’t so much faster than Jiraiya that he can blitz Jiraiya. And Jiraiya has ranged attacks which he can use to effectively keep Itachi at bay, especially with Kage Bunshins assisting him.

Once Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, it becomes more favourable to Jiraiya. His speed and jutsus like Goemon would make Itachi closing in practically impossible.

Long Ranged Combat

Jiraiya has a clear advantage in long ranged combat. Jiraiya could summon Bunta and completely dominate this. With Bunta’s mobility, as well as jutsus like Gamayu Endan and Suiton: Teppodama, Jiraiya would completely control the battlefield. He could effectively keep whatever distance he wants from Itachi and keep Itachi on his toes. This is very bad for Itachi due to Itachi’s low chakra reserves. If Jiraiya controls the pace of the battle, Itachi is at a great disadvantage. Jutsus like Doton: Yomi Numa would further force Itachi to resort to his MS jutsus. And at such a great distance, those jutsus are going to be very ineffective.

Once Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, he can easily prep Magen Gamarinsho and end the battle. This would be especially easy since while Fukasaku and Shima prep the genjutsu, Jiraiya can use Gamayu Endan with Bunta and instruct Bunta to use its leaps to keep distance from Itachi.

Attaining Sage Mode

A lot of people question how easily Jiraiya can enter Sage Mode. They’re not entirely confident in Jiraiya’s abilities to survive the 1-2 minutes it takes to enter Sage mode. However, I believe it’s actually pretty easy. Jiraiya just needs to summon a giant toad and mount it. These giant toads are extremely mobile and can cover hundreds of meters in a single leap. They should have no problem keeping distance from the enemy while Jiraiya summons Fukasaku and Shima. In this particular location, Jiraiya also has the option of summoning a toad and hiding in it in the water to prepare Sage Mode. These tasks can be further simplified by Jiraiya making a KB prior to beginning his ritual. All in all, entering Sage Mode shouldn’t be much of a problem for him.


Conclusion


Jiraiya is ninja whose fighting style revolves around countering the enemy and Itachi will be no different. Jiraiya can effectively counter everything Itachi can throw at him and Jiraiya can control the pace of the battle. Ultimately these factors are going to lead to Jiraiya coming out the victor.

I hope I was able to satisfy the people who believe Jiraiya would come out the victor and I also hope I was able to even mildly change the opinion of the people who believe Jiraiya would be defeated in this battle. Either way, this has been a fun experience for me and I thank you all for your time.

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Old 02-13-2011, 09:56 PM   #3
Nikushimi
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Default First Speaker for Team Itachi

Hello, all. Before I begin my introductory speech for "The Great Debate", I'd like to clarify the nature of its structure. The following presentation is a step-by-step analysis of how this match-up between Itachi and Jiraiya would likely play out based on empirical evidence, a format that is typical of most analyses in the NBD (albeit somewhat more comprehensive this time around). For the purposes of this debate, and because no one likes to read text walls, I have kept my arguments as concise as possible while retaining, according to my own discretion, enough substantiation to firmly support them.

With that out of the way, I'll go ahead and get started:

Location

The Konoha Canal is a battlefield that is largely covered with water, with thin strips of land on either side. The large volume of water present in the environment allows Itachi to utilize Suiton Ninjutsu- namely, Suiton: Suigadan and Suiton: Suijinheki.

Confrontation

With a starting distance of 50m, one combatant would have to be stationed out on the water unless it is assumed that they confront eachother like this (remember, of course, that the starting distance for this match is 50m). For the purpose of this debate, I will assume the latter scenario.

Engagement

Jiraiya is in character and has demonstrated that he is willing to pose when confronting Itachi [1] [2]. While he better understands how dangerous Itachi is based on their previous encounter [1] [2] and will waste no time resorting to Sennin Moodo when he is facing a significant threat [1] [2], old habits die hard [1] [2]. On the other side of the fence, Itachi has comparatively little tolerance for nonsense, but is too far away to use any of his staple techniques on Jiraiya because the majority of them are listed in the databooks as close-range Jutsu [1] [2] [3] [4]. Like Jiraiya, Itachi knows not to take his opponent lightly:

Spoiler:






That said, both opponents will most likely try to cover the majority of the distance between them; trying to attack from far away could give the enemy all the time he needs to simply move out of the way [1] [2]. While the both of them advance, Jiraiya can use this opportunity to summon a toad such as Gamaken to buy him some time while he gets into Sennin Moodo, as he did when he fought Pain. Jiraiya also has enough time to set up a clone concealed with Gamagakure no Jutsu before he engages Itachi, which he will most likely do given the high level of threat his enemy poses to him.

However, Itachi will not be sitting on his hands the whole time. He too will likely prepare himself to engage the enemy, as he did when he hypnotized a woman to distract Jiraiya prior to their confrontation. For this match, the extremely versatile Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu is invaluable. As we saw with Naruto and Sasuke, it is a technique he can employ casually to confront enemies from a distance. Because it uses crows as a medium, it costs less chakra than standard Kage Bunshin while retaining the ability to cast all of the original shinobi's Jutsu.

Itachi will likely send his clone to engage Jiraiya first, as we saw in his encounters with Naruto and Sasuke. While Jiraiya's toad summon may try to impede this advance, Itachi's speed should be sufficient to maneuver around its attacks, as we saw in the case of Naraka Pain and Deva Pain. Konohamaru was able to keep up with Naraka and Kakashi was able to keep up with Deva; Itachi is a bit faster than Kakashi, a fact reflected by their statistics in the third databook [1] [2], so speed and evasive feats similar to those performed by the aforementioned Pain bodies should be possible for Itachi. This does not even take into account the Sharingan's predictive ability, which allows the user to react to things wholly outside the scope of his or her normal reaction time [1] [2] [3] [4].

Sharingan Prediction

It should be noted, while we're on the subject, that the speed of Itachi's seal formation is too fast for Kakashi's Sharingan to track. Sasuke had a similar problem at one point. Sasuke, Kakashi and Jiraiya all have the same speed rating in the third databook [1] [2] [3], but unlike Sasuke and Kakashi, Jiraiya does not possess Sharingan.

Genjutsu

Once Itachi's clone has bypassed the toad's offense and approaches Jiraiya, it will most likely try to cast a Genjutsu, as is typical of an opening move for Itachi [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. Since J-man needs to stay focused to get into Sennin Moodo, the clone hiding with Gamagakure no Jutsu- assuming he set one up -will have to emerge and try to fend Itachi's clone off. However, that gives the real Itachi an opportunity to take out Jiraiya's clone with projectile weapons or maybe a Katon. After that, J-man has nothing left to protect himself, and Itachi may cast Genjutsu again at his liesure.

Even if Jiraiya knows to avoid eye-contact and sets up a detection barrier with Kekkai: Tengai Houjin, a number of factors still put him in danger: Chiefly, Itachi's ability to cast Genjutsu even from a single finger, which there is no evidence Jiraiya knows about. Aside from that, it has been expressed that fighting an opponent while maintaining an averted focus is difficult for anyone who has not specially trained for it [1] [2]. It was also mentioned that detection methods like chakra sensing are not a perfect substitute for visual confirmation when it comes to anticipating attacks, so Jiraiya's detection barrier- which is designed to locate hidden targets moving within its boundaries, not discern their precise movements -should not fully compensate for this handicap.

Without being able to anticipate Genjutsu from Itachi's fingers and faced with his superior speed [1] [2], getting caught in an illusion is virtually unavoidable for Jiraiya unless he simply closes his eyes and embraces the sweet release of death. Once that happens, the fight is over; when Naruto used Jiraiya's Genjutsu-breaking technique, Itachi defeated it by attacking him within the Genjutsu to break his concentration [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. Even if Jiraiya is capable of overcoming the torments projected onto him by the illusion, Itachi has demonstrated the ability to intervene outside of the illusion. Jiraiya loses here.

Tsukuyomi

Should Jiraiya somehow manage to get out of that situation, he still needs to avoid looking at Itachi's entire upper-body to avoid his Genjutsu. If an exhange of Ninjutsu between them results in eye-contact, he may even end up eating a Tsukuyomi, which could put him in a coma and potentially kill him [1] [2] [3].

Amaterasu

Even if Jiraiya is able to avoid looking at Itachi's entire upper-torso, he faces another danger: Amaterasu. The only way to know when Amaterasu is coming is by looking at the user's eyes [1] [2]...which is impossible if that is precisely what Jiraiya is trying to avoid. Moreover, the speed of Amaterasu's execution is such that Raikage needed to use a Shunshin while amped-up on a Bijuu-level amount of chakra to evade it [1] [2]. Jiraiya has not shown that he is capable of amping his chakra up to "Bijuu-level" and performing a Shunshin that rivals Raikage's. He is given the same speed rating in the third databook as Sasuke [1] [2], who was unable to outrun a homing Amaterasu flame even while using the Juin, despite beginning to run before Itachi even cast the Amaterasu.

The only way Jiraiya can deal with Amaterasu is by using Fuinjutsu: Fuka Houin to seal it into a scroll. Since he can't avoid Amaterasu with his speed and won't be able to anticipate it while he's trying to avoid getting caught in Genjutsu, he would only be able to seal Amaterasu after he's been set on fire with it. Assuming the scroll doesn't disintegrate in his hands and assuming he doesn't burn to death first, he is still sure to sustain severe injuries from the flame before he can seal it. Of course, Jiraiya has only shown one scroll for this Fuinjutsu, whereas Itachi has demonstrated that he can produce at least two Amaterasu in one fight, if not three. So once again, Jiraiya does not have the means to continue the fight beyond this point.

Susano'o

Assuming Jiraiya somehow survives three Amaterasu with one sealing scroll, he still needs to contend with this little bugger. He can try letting that giant toad he summoned earlier attack it, but that probably won't end well. He can summon more large toads, but that probably won't end well, either. Jiraiya can try attacking it himself, but since Susano'o was able to repel an attack of this level, Jiraiya is most likely just going to end up like this. There's another important issue regarding Susano'o that cannot be ignored: Its speed. It was able to blitz Orochimaru, between words, as he spoke. Jiraiya and Orochimaru have the same speed rating in the third databook [1] [2]. Avoiding a one-way trip to Dream Land means not only succeeding where Orochimaru failed by dodging the Jutsu's attack, but doing so repeatedly until Itachi simply keels over from disease and exhaustion. Jiraiya could try running away, but Itachi is faster than him [1] [2].

Sennin Moodo

Now let's switch over to an alternative scenerio where J-man somehow made it into Sennin Moodo early in the fight. He now has toads on his shoulders who can act as his partners and free him from Genjutsu if he gets caught, but that method doesn't work against Itachi's Tsukuyomi, something Jiraiya may or may not have been told. He will either succumb to this Jutsu out of ignorance, or he'll continue to avoid eye-contact.

What's more, Sennin Moodo doesn't change the fact that, if he is avoiding eye-contact, he won't be able to anticipate Amaterasu (for reasons explained previously in this post). Nor does it change the fact that he is only demonstrably equipped to deal with a single Amaterasu, not two or three. The one thing that might've changed is his ability to outrun the flame, thanks to Sennin Moodo's speed boost, but avoiding an attack he won't be able to anticipate in the first place (without making himself vulnerable to Tsukuyomi) is impossible. Furthermore, even in Sennin Moodo, Jiraiya does not possess a Jutsu that is demonstrably more powerful than Kirin, so he has no way of breaking through Susano'o. Nor can he strike faster than lightning, which Itachi reacted to with Susano'o.

Yomi Numa

One might suggest Doton: Yomi Numa as a possible answer, but given the Sharingan's ability to discern a Jutsu's particulars based on the user's seals and chakra, given that the battlefield is largely covered with water, and given that the Yata no Kagami wielded in the left hand of Susano'o can alter both its nature and its shape to counter any technique, Itachi's probability of nullifying or simply avoiding the swamp is high.

Yattai Kuzushi

Yattai Kuzushi summons a toad from free-fall directly over the target. According to Jiraiya, it is not his fastest Jutsu. Considering Itachi's tier 5 speed, sharp reflexes [1] [2], and the quickness with which he can activate Susano'o [1] [2], he should be able to react to this as well.

Magen: Gamarinshou

Would Magen: Gamarinshou work? Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya has to run away and hide somewhere to give the Ni Dai Sennin enough time to use it, Itachi is an Uchiha with the Mangekyou Sharingan who excells at Genjutsu. The second databook states that he and Kurenai have equal Genjutsu skill, but thanks to his Doujutsu power and Kekkei Genkai, he was able to completely dominate her at Genjutsu. While there is no guarantee that he can break Magen: Gamarinshou, he certainly has enough going for him to make it highly plausible.

In summation...

In order to win this fight, Jiraiya needs to avoid getting caught in Genjutsu long enough to enter Sennin Moodo, avoid Tsukuyomi even after he is in Sennin Moodo, save himself from Amaterasu two or three times despite only having one sealing scroll to our knowledge, and then dodge attacks from Susano'o repeatedly until Itachi simply collapses. As for Magen: Gamarinshou, one would have to assume- if the Ni Dai Sennin could execute it successfully -that Itachi of all people would be defeated by a Genjutsu.

In conclusion, Jiraiya's victory is contingent upon a series of improbable if not impossible outcomes at several junctures in this fight, and at each one, he faces almost certain death. Consequently, all evidence presented thus far strongly suggests that Itachi would be the victor.

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Old 02-15-2011, 12:25 AM   #4
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Default Second Speaker for Team Jiraiya

Before you actually get to my rebuttal I just want to thank anyone and everyone who has taken the time to participate in this or to make it happen. That goes to Suu and all voters working or voting to keep this running and make it an enjoyable event.

I hope everyone can use this experience to set aside previous biases or viewpoints and simply judge the debate as a debate. If there are points I haven't covered I am fully confident in Turrin's ability to see things I haven't seen and fill holes I couldn't fill. Good luck to all members from the other team.


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Location

The Konoha Canal is a battlefield that is largely covered with water, with thin strips of land on either side. The large volume of water present in the environment allows Itachi to utilize Suiton Ninjutsu- namely, Suiton: Suigadan and Suiton: Suijinheki.
I have no direct argument with any point made here, merely a few additions.

The first thing I would like to point out is that either of those jutsu listed by Nikushimi will require one or both characters to actually be in the water to have any meaningful effect in a match between the two.

Secondly I would like to point out what it offers Jiraiya. There are 2 toads he has specifically that offer him water bound protection, escapability and even a potential safe haven for gathering Nature Energy on his own.

The first toad I would like to point out is Gama Mise no Jutsu.

From the links provided you will see that the toad can change not only its size, but its shape as well and it also provides an enclosed space to perform the Frog Stomach technique. Or one might even say it is the Frog Stomach technique in full size.

To take the point a little further, should Jiraiya get Itachi into this toad it could be a major cause of concern for Itachi. We have seen a similar version of this jutsu previously employed against Itachi and he was forced to use Amaterasu to escape.

What that would lead to for Itachi is a fairly big drain on his chakra, damage to his eyes, an opening for Jiraiya and the potential for Jiraiya to further his knowledge (of Amaterasu) on seeing the technique for a 2nd time, if he doesn't already have such knowledge.

The 2nd toad I would like to bring to everyones attention is Kekkai: Gama Hyoro.

I wont go into a lot more detail with this toad as some very similar arguments can be made to the importance in comparison with the one mentioned above. However, there are some interesting differences that could hold very vital combat advantages.

From the data book:

* There exists a "barrier space" that is isolated from the outside world.

What you may find interesting about this particular exert is that Pain (with 5 separate pairs of eyes searching directly after Jiraiya snatched a body into the barrier) could not locate this toad. So there is the potential for Jiraiya to use this for very obvious advantages of elusively maneuvering around Itachi's keen senses.

* one drags the target into its stomach.

Offensively for Jiraiya this offers a very interesting surprise advantage against his opponents. I would like everyone to recall that Jiraiya "drug" a Pain body with him while only having access to 1 of his arms and also battling the 5 other bodies.

Next I will point you to his strength advantage over Itachi. According to the 3rd data book Itachi has a power rating of 3.5 while Jiraiya boasts an impressive 4.5. He will have a clear size and strength advantage over Itachi and should he grab him, there would be no problem taking advantage of the ability this jutsu offers.

What that all converges to is this:

* At the contractor's command, it is possible to enter or exit in an instant.

Even if you believe Itachi could put up a struggle or attempt to counteract Jiraiya's strength, it only takes an instant for him to finish the task at hand.

This of course, also works for Jiraiya as a defensive advantage. Once he has the toad summoned he can quickly use it to escape at any moment should the need arise.

To finalize in a more direct answer to the initial points made by Nikushimi, should Itachi take to the water in order to make his jutsu effective he is inviting a wealth of options for Jiraiya and dangers to himself.

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Engagement

That said, both opponents will most likely try to cover the majority of the distance between them;
Given Jiraiya's nature I have to strongly disagree on him making any approach in this situation. At least not until he is completely ready with whatever he found appropriate in this match up.

After such preparations are made I would have no problem agreeing to the idea of him closing the gap between himself and Itachi.

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Itachi will likely send his clone to engage Jiraiya first, as we saw in his encounters with Naruto and Sasuke. While Jiraiya's toad summon may try to impede this advance, Itachi's speed should be sufficient to maneuver around its attacks
Again, I have no direct argument to the points you have made but you have tactically left out the advantages this offers Jiraiya, which I will list below.

* While Jiraiya is on his toad he is effectively safe from any distant assault attempts. It will offer him a major height/distance advantage that wont really allow for many effective attacks based on Itachi's arsenal. If it is Gamaken he not only has a shield for protection but can also cover large distances by leaping and affording Jiraiya more room and safety or bringing him in closer to attack.

* Jiraiya aside, Itachi isn't much of a threat to the summon, so while dodging is effective for keeping him safe, it accomplishes nothing for Itachi offensively.

* Last but certainly not least this "safety blanket" for Jiraiya allows him time to prepare further offensive or defensive measures whether it be more summons, Kage Bunshin's or preparation for Sennin Mode.

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Sharingan Prediction

It should be noted, while we're on the subject, that the speed of Itachi's seal formation is too fast for Kakashi's Sharingan to track.
I want to stress here that while this is true, it doesn't equate to any disadvantage for Jiraiya. While common for Sharingan users to read and copy seals to know of attacks in advance, it isn't a normal ability for people who lack Sharingan anyway.

Unless there are deliberate seals or slower seals, a non Sharingan ninja would normally be looking simply to react to a specific attack or their opponent, not looking to follow specific seals.

To reiterate, it is a special advantage for Sharingan users to be able to read signs and learn of attacks in advance, but it certainly isn't a disadvantage to Jiraiya that he cant follow a seal speed he normally wouldn't attempt to anyway.

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Genjutsu

Once Itachi's clone has bypassed the toad's offense and approaches Jiraiya, it will most likely try to cast a Genjutsu,
I just want to note here that bypassing the toads offense doesn't necessarily equate to Itachi being able to move in on the offensive. If the toad is on a consistent attack pattern then Itachi would need to consistently "bypass" those offenses.

Even if he completely stopped the offensive maneuvers by proving them fruitless, he has the toads defenses to bypass before he can ever become a threat to Jiraiya.

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getting caught in an illusion is virtually unavoidable for Jiraiya unless he simply closes his eyes and embraces the sweet release of death.
This is absolutely true assuming we overlook all of Jiraiya's methods of keeping eye contact from being an issue.

Not only does he have his Detection Barrier to know when an opponent is close to him, he has his toad that is keeping him at a distance while also attempting to keep Itachi at a distance and the toad is capable of sending warning should Jiraiya not be looking and Itachi were able to bypass all of the obstacles.

All above things considered, that also affords Jiraiya the ability to employ smoke bombs without worry of interfering to much with his own vision because of his Detection Barrier and partner on the field.

Lastly I want to mention how your specific scenario assumes Jiraiya isn't actually doing anything. Should he choose to fire off a Katon that effectively puts Itachi on the defensive or blocks LOS, genjutsu becomes a non issue.

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Once that happens, the fight is over; when Naruto used Jiraiya's Genjutsu-breaking technique, Itachi defeated it by attacking him within the Genjutsu to break his concentration [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6].
To be frank this is an absurd comparison to make. You have essentially attempted to reduce Jiraiya's 50 plus years of experience and ability down to that of a 15 year old.

If we take a look at what breaking genjutsu is about it leads us to one major point of concern and that is chakra control.

I would like to now take a moment to break this down into some comparisons between Naruto and Jiraiya while also pointing out some places Jiraiya excels specifically in the chakra control field.

* Both of these Shinobi can use the Rasengan technique. A technique said to be the highest level of shape manipulation, which is basically telling us it takes a fair amount of chakra control to use. The difference between the 2 ninja is that it requires Naruto to use twice the manpower or twice the effort to use the Rasengan then it does Jiraiya. If we break that down into a simple form of mathematics that tells us Naruto is at best only half as skilled with chakra control when it comes to forming the Rasengan.

* As you all have read about and are aware of, Sennin Mode requires the balancing of 3 types of energy as opposed to 2. I would like everyone to remember that even balancing the normal 2 types of energy can be mastered to different levels and isn't a given for any shinobi to simply be great at. Specifically looking at Naruto, he was very far behind the curve when it came to even balancing the normal 2 energies in his earlier days and was noted to be wasting a lot of chakra. To move into the point slightly quicker, Jiraiya has gone above and beyond any other ninja to date when it comes to chakra control and balancing energies, by being able to effectively bring together all 3 to form the powerful Sage Chakra. (Remember the Naruto in question hasn't learned Sennin Mode yet).

This is not to say Jiraiya was a master, as it was clearly stated to us he was not. This is to point out that even without mastering it that it reaches beyond the scope of any ninja's normal 2 energy chakra formation.

* The final showcase of Jiraiya's outstanding chakra control ability is Shikoku Fuin.

As you will all be able to see from the provided scan, Jiraiya was on the verge of death and yet was still able to perform a jutsu that the data book says; "minute chakra control is required".

As a final note I would like to remind everyone that Itachi's initial intention of the genjutsu was to make Naruto go to sleep. As you are all aware, that was never the result showing us that Naruto was indeed able to form some resistance to the technique.

So if we consider the enormous gap between Jiraiya's chakra control and Naruto's while also noting that Naruto formed some resistance to the genjutsu, I think we can safely conclude that using Naruto as a comparison for how Jiraiya would fair is not even remotely reasonable.

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Even if Jiraiya is capable of overcoming the torments projected onto him by the illusion, Itachi has demonstrated the ability to intervene outside of the illusion. Jiraiya loses here.
I will quickly address this point by steering everyone back to some of the points made above. Jiraiya is going to have defensive help on the battlefield in the form of a toad or possibly more as well as the potential for having a Kagebunshin available for protection. So Itachi still has obstacles should he attempt to take advantage of a landed genjutsu.

The last point I will make is that this is assuming Jiraiya doesn't break this genjutsu quickly enough to prevent Itachi from taking advantage or that his toad hasn't broken him out or jumped to a safe distance away from Itachi.

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Amaterasu

Moreover, the speed of Amaterasu's execution is such that Raikage needed to use a Shunshin while amped-up on a Bijuu-level amount of chakra to evade it [1] [2]. Jiraiya has not shown that he is capable of amping his chakra up to "Bijuu-level" and performing a Shunshin that rivals Raikage's.
Certainly a fair point to be made in saying he hasn't "shown" a Shunshin on the level of A's, but lets ask ourselves if he does in fact have the necessary prerequisites should he want to employ such a praiseworthy Shunshin.

The main and obvious point of concern here is the amount of chakra Jiraiya needs to have access to. According to Nikushimi and the manga the Raikage needed "Bijuu" amounts of chakra in order to perform his legendary Shunshin. So let us address what we know about Jiraiya's stamina and chakra amounts.

* The first and easiest place to find answers is in the data book where Jiraiya is giving a stamina rating of 5. Now as well all know that is the "roof" tier which essentially puts him in a limitless bracket that cannot be determined to an exact amount.

* The next (and most important) piece of evidence is what Pa tells us about Jiraiya's amount of chakra. He informs us that in order to even safely undertake the training you need enormous amounts of chakra. I am sure I don't need to define exactly what enormous mean to anyone so I will point out what else strikes me as interesting in what Pa said. He says the training is about "Naruto and Jiraiya specifically" before he mentions the amounts of chakra. So he is basically comparing Naruto and Jiraiya's amounts of chakra and as everyone knows, Naruto has the 9 tails inside of him.

I wont try and convince everyone that it means Jiraiya has the exact equal amount to Naruto but it was at least comparable. Even if you choose not to believe he is close to Naruto's level there is one last important point for everyone to think about.

Sage chakra is said to provide a serious power up to ninjutsu. So if we take the above information and assume Jiraiya is at least in the ballpark of Naruto's chakra level (which can easily be defined as Bijuu level) and combine it with the knowledge that Sage chakra significantly boosts ninjutsu, its a pretty safe bet that Jiraiya can in fact use a Shunshin on the same level as A, the Raikage.

Assuming of course that he is in Sennin Mode or has built up Sage chakra on his own.

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Assuming the scroll doesn't disintegrate in his hands and assuming he doesn't burn to death first, he is still sure to sustain severe injuries from the flame before he can seal it.
One point that seems to be consistently forgotten in regards to Jiraiya is that he will have help on the field. Not only will he constantly have a frog partner that could potentially use the scroll for him, he could also have a Kagebunshin available.

Discussing the severity of injuries has too much of a range to really pinpoint based on where the Amaterasu connects, how quickly it spreads and how quickly Jiraiya could have it sealed.

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Of course, Jiraiya has only shown one scroll for this Fuinjutsu, whereas Itachi has demonstrated that he can produce at least two Amaterasu in one fight, if not three.
I just want to point out that the scroll was never limited to one use or implied to have such a limit. Beyond that, the strain on Itachi and his eyes makes it quite the gamble to fire off multiple Amaterasu shots after seeing Jiraiya has the potential to seal it. Someone of Itachi's intelligence would take on a more cautious approach in such a high level battle.

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Susano'o

Jiraiya can try attacking it himself, but since Susano'o was able to repel an attack of this level, Jiraiya is most likely just going to end up like this.
I think the way to go about discussing Susanoo is the possible attacks Jiraiya can employ to bypass it. As opposed to simply writing it off as impenetrable.

The first technique I will bring up is Yomi Numa. This is a technique that turns the ground into a trap swamp. The interesting thing here is that the shield of Susanoo blocks incoming attacks but Yomi Numa isn't an attack or "incoming" for that matter. It simply appears below the target if Jiraiya wills it to do such. We have never seen any indication that Susanoo provides defense for jutsu that come from below and aren't necessarily "attacks".

The 2nd jutsu requires Ma and Pa or Sennin Mode and that is Frog Song. The genjutsu that sends sound waves at the target to trap them in a genjutsu. As we all have seen Susanoo does not keep Itachi from hearing or give him any aided in blocking out sound.

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There's another important issue regarding Susano'o that cannot be ignored: Its speed. It was able to blitz Orochimaru, between words, as he spoke.
There are very important pieces of information missing from this claim and I would like to address them with you all.

I guess the first thing that we should make a note of is where Orochimaru was or what he was attached to. He was inside the mouth in one head of his Yamata no Orochi jutsu. While we cant say it with 100% certainty, we should still address the fact that this could have potentially limited his mobility. As is pretty common knowledge, moving an object as large as the snake head with as much quickness or mobility as an averaged sized body is not not going to happen.

The 2nd and last point we should bring up is Orochimaru's personality and durability. Everyone is aware of 2 things at this point. The first thing is that Orochimaru is incredibly durable. He can be sliced in half or have limbs removed and fully recover while laughing about it all. The 2nd thing is that based on that durability he is far less inclined to avoid damage that most "normal" ninja would be inclined to dodge. In fact, in this same instance he took the sword stroke and simply laughed at the idea it would defeat him.

Orochimaru was charging forward at Itachi with no worry of injury or intention to dodge. So to compare someone like that to any other ninja with what we might label "average" durability and try to claim it as a speed feat simply doesn't work.

How can we properly gauge Orochimaru's ability to avoid such an attack when he had no intention or inclination to avoid it? And if we lack that basis of information how do we use it to measure another shinobi's capabilities in comparison?

The correct answer is we cant.

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Jiraiya and Orochimaru have the same speed rating in the third databook [1] [2].
A couple of things can be quickly addressed here.

* Speed =/= reflex or avoid-ability.

* Nothing here accounts for the increase Sennin Mode would bring should Jiraiya be in it.


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Magen: Gamarinshou

Ignoring the fact that Jiraiya has to run away and hide somewhere to give the Ni Dai Sennin enough time to use it,
This is an absolutely false assertion. In fact, Frog Song by nature gives away the users location so hiding is useless. The reference Nikushimi has made is to a battle where Jiraiya left to regroup and decided while fleeing to use that jutsu. If we move later on into that encounter we see that Jiraiya actually comes to combat his opponent while preparing Frog Song.



I will conclude by simply pointing out that a lot of what was being discussed here is just 1 scenario Nikushimi envisioned compared to many other more likely or equally likely scenarios that could present themselves.

Itachi is quite literally going to be fighting an uphill battle the whole time since Jiraiya fights early and often with summons. Even getting past the proper range to attack (for Itachi) is going to take quite an effort based on the summon, potential Kagebunshin's and Jiraiya's various jutsu of many ranges.

He has various jutsu that are a huge threat and can force Itachi into bad situations such as Yomi Numa and Yatai Kuzushi. These are very simple and quick jutsu that can force Itachi to extreme circumstances like the early use of Susanoo.

Lastly I want to point out that all of Itachi's "big" weapons have drawbacks. Any use of Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu or Susanoo will damage his eyes, drain a big portion of his chakra and Susanoo even goes as far as to slowly kill him. So even his best answers could be his worst.

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Old 02-15-2011, 12:26 AM   #5
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Default Second Speaker for Team Itachi

I have organized and worded my secondhand arguments as concisely as possible for your convenience. Forgive me for arbitrarily grabbing important points from the First Speaker's speech; I did not feel it necessary or wise to respond to every word.

Statements

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Itachi’s words seem to indicate that he believed that a fight between him and Jiraiya would end in both of them killing each other or at least hurting each other badly. Just from this statement, it’s at least clear that Itachi considered Jiraiya on his level if not stronger.
There exists no factual verification that the subject was Jiraiya, and not the jinchūriki. Orochimaru entertained the possibility of Naruto having control of the Nine Tails, like he does in current chapters. Itachi also had reason to lie, clearly contradicted his earlier statement, and we know from Kisame that Itachi was recovering from the initial Tsukuyomi. In any case, an ambiguous statement is a poor substitute for legitimate analysis on conflicting combat styles.

Parallels

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Second, I’d like to point Jiraiya and Itachi’s parallel to Naruto and Sasuke. Both Jiraiya and Naruto use Sage Mode while both Itachi and Sasuke use Mangekyo Sharingan. Sage Mode Naruto and Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke were implied to be equals several times in the manga. This again indicates that Jiraiya and Itachi were equals.
Naruto stated their equality as a vague reference to the future, but said he could not presently defeat Sasuke. He said that he needed the Fox's power to defeat Sasuke. Naruto had also surpassed Jiraiya in Sage Mode, but Sasuke had not surpassed Itachi in dōjutsu. Plus, interpretive parallels are not evidence, and Naruto and Sasuke are not Jiraiya and Itachi, so the argument does not apply.

Statistics

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Third, I’d like to point out the Databook totals of each ninja. Both Jiraiya’s and Itachi’s databook stats give us a total of 35.5. Of course, databook stats’ totals don’t tell us the level of ninjas. I merely point this out as just another one of the small indications that the author has presented us with to establish Jiraiya and Itachi’s equality.
Itachi and Jiraiya are no more indicated as equals than Asuma and Kakuzu, or Gaara and Shizune. Nevertheless, Itachi has the most maximum scores of any ninja aside from Sarutobi Hiruzen, whereas Jiraiya has comparably few maximum scores, and is consequently better represented by fictitious "stat totals." But more importantly, stat totals are fan-fabricated, and indicate nothing in Battledome debates.

Style

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His showing in Amegakure showed that he has a large variety of jutsu and he seems to have an answer to everything his opponent throws at him. / So when Jiraiya faces Itachi, he’ll again devise a strategy to counter Itachi’s expertise, i.e. genjutsu. He would try to avoid eye contact. He would summon toads or make Kage Bunshins to act as partners. He would keep the battle long ranged...
Wouldn't the intelligent method of handling three opponents be utilizing multiple Kage Bunshin, or multiple summons? Orochimaru had bested Jiraiya's versatility repeatedly. Jiraiya had been drugged, but his chakra control was adequately recovered in view of the fact that he was using the tree-walking method. Moreover, Jiraiya did not attempt to engage Itachi, Orochimaru, or Pain at long range; in Pain's case, Gamaken was simply losing ground while engaging.

Genjutsu

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With a few Kage Bunshins fighting alongside Jiraiya, Itachi wouldn’t risk wasting a Tsukuyomi on a Kage Bunshin. / Toads could also be used. By summoning a giant toad, Jiraiya can effectively keep distance indefinitely / in Sage Mode, he has an even better chance of avoiding genjutsu. Since Fukasaku and Shima are fused to him and keep pumping natural energy into him, it’s very likely that he’s practically immune to genjutsu.
Jiraiya uses one Kage Bunshin at a time. Itachi frequently uses more efficient Karasu Bunshins. When confronting a toad, the Mangekyō Sharingan's power to control the Nine Tails, the same power that Sasuke used to control Manda, becomes invaluable. Fukasaku and Shima are providing natural energy, he forms his own chakra, and the partner method does not work against Itachi's Tsukuyomi. The results of controlling Shima or Fukasaku may be a less comical version of this. Also, Jiraiya did not treat the Rinnegan with that level of caution. Splitting his chakra in thirds, with a summon on the field, is excessive and unsupported.

Amaterasu

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Kage Bunshins would make Itachi weary of using this jutsu to avoid wasting it. If Jiraiya is far enough, he can deflect the flames using his hair / If nothing, it should mean that Jiraiya is likely to use a shield toad to block them at least once. / Once Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, his speed is that much faster and he gets access to jutsus that should further help him in defending against Amaterasu. He should be fast enough to outrun Amaterasu for a while and he should be able to hold back Amaterasu for some time...
Jiraiya's hair is attached to his head. The full speed and power of Amaterasu is enough to burn through fireproof material before Itachi can sprint ten yards, and the only method to foresee Amaterasu is by focusing on the Mangekyō Sharingan. Considering that Sasuke was unable to outrun Amaterasu, even while using the speed amplification of his Juin, reflex amplification of the Sharingan, and despite sprinting before Itachi formed Amaterasu, then a half-blind Jiraiya relying on imperfect sight substitution is unlikely to fare better than Sasuke's Juin Wing. Moreover, since Itachi can sweep Amaterasu, multiple opponents wouldn't deter him. The interpretation of long range mechanics is indefinite.

Susano'o

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If Itachi uses Susano’o and Jiraiya attacks it once or twice, Jiraiya would know it’s practically impervious to ninjutsu and physical attacks. And once Susano’o takes out the sword, Jiraiya would also know to keep distance.
You are assuming that Jiraiya will test his defense, with his vision restricted, and remain unscarred, despite having equal reflexes to Orochimaru, who was pierced in between words? Plus, we have seen that a Susano'o user can fight independently of Susano'o, indicating that an attack on Susano'o leaves him vulnerable to a counterattack from both Susano'o and Itachi.

Kuchiyose

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Jiraiya has access to a multitude of toads that aid him in battle. Toads to shield against attacks, toads to hide and infiltrate, toads to trap enemies, toads to distract enemies, etc. The toads grant him a lot of versatility and are a great asset. After all, Jiraiya was known as the Toad Hermit.
Itachi has access to a dōjutsu that controls summons. And, considering that Sasuke used the ability when more or less out of chakra, and considering that Jiraiya said his Kuchiyose is very taxing, this is a tiring and easily countered technique that's right up there with forming blinded Kage Bunshin. Also.

Yatai Kuzushi

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A giant toad summoned right above the enemy is extremely dangerous as the opponent would have no indication of this happening and the summoning would be instant. After that, the opponent has mere fractions of a second to avoid the giant toad or mount some kind of defense. If Jiraiya were to use this on Itachi, Itachi would most probably have to resort to Susano’o to survive or risk getting squashed.
Jiriaya implied that Yatai Kazushi is more easily evaded than the senbon technique that Animal Path reacted to. The databook text says "right above". As in, "in a straight line above". The Japanese word is 真上 (ma-ue). There is no implication of distance, other than the mentioned several hundred-foot dive.

Yomi Numa

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the size and depth depends on the skill of the user and the amount of chakra used. A drugged Jiraiya who couldn’t even control his chakra properly was able to make a swamp big enough to partially sink a giant snake and he still called it tiny. This indicates that Jiraiya is capable of making significantly larger swamps. Itachi doesn’t really have a way to avoid this jutsu.
Well, the Sharingan discerns a technique's particulars based on the user's seals and chakra, the battlefield is covered with water, the Yata Mirror freely alters both nature and shape to counter any technique, and Yomi Numa is implied to be more easily evaded than his senbon technique.

Magen Gamarinsho

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The only genjutsu in Jiraiya’s repertoire. And one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence. It paralyzes the body and the mind of the target. It is used by Fukasaku and Shima by singing a special song and harmonizing their voices. Since this genjutsu paralyzes the mind of the target, uses sage chakra, and is not a dojutsu; it’s very unlikely that Itachi would be able to break out of it.
Provided that Itachi was unable to control or injure Fukasaku and Shima, Nikushimi pointed out that Jiraiya would need to run away and hide, and even then, Itachi is an Uchiha with the Mangekyō Sharingan, and a specialist in the field genjutsu. The second databook states that Kurenai possesses equal skill to Itachi, but because of his dōjutsu's power and kekkei genkai, he was able to dominate her in a battle of illusions. Lastly, sound and vision are methods of genjutsu infiltration, but because the Amegakure trio were concealed when Team 7 was taken in by their genjutsu, the Sharingan is helpful against more than vision-based genjutsu.

Closing

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As one can see, Jiraiya has a lot of jutsu that would force Itachi to use Susano’o. And in the same vein, Jiraiya has options to avoid Susano’o. With every second that Itachi uses MS, he puts himself at a disadvantage. Jiraiya’s superior chakra reserves mean he could easily outlast Itachi in this manner.
Jiraiya has larger chakra reserves, but he must also use many more exhausting techniques as a precaution for survival, such as multiple summons that Itachi's dōjutsu can control, splitting his chakra in fractions with multiple Kage Bunshin that have restricted vision, large scale elemental ninjutsu aimed with restricted sight, and large scale barriers that must stand perpetually. Such precautions were not seen against Pain, the legendary Rinnegan user, and Itachi's superior in Akatsuki.

In contrast, Itachi is the more efficient clone user with more efficient illusions and controlling dōjutsu. Itachi's speed and Sharingan indicate that he can likely evade even Jiraiya's fastest technique, particularly if applied with restricted vision or at range. More importantly, Itachi can instantly incapacitate or immolate Jiraiya in close range, and Jiraiya often prefers close range combat.

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:26 AM   #6
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Default Third Speaker for Team Jiraiya

Itachi's and Kisame's Conversation
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There exists no factual verification that the subject was Jiraiya, and not the jinchūriki. Orochimaru entertained the possibility of Naruto having control of the Nine Tails, like he does in current chapters.
I think we can safely conclude the subject was Jiraiya and here's why:


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Originally Posted by Gottheim
I went through the Japanese Internet (2chan, among others) to see what they think. The general consensus there seems to be that the whole conversation was about Jiraiya, not Naruto (Kyuubi) then Jiraiya as I thought.

They do have a problem with it, but it has to do with the contradiction between Itachi's claims that Jiraiya could handle Kisame+Itachi+reinforcements and Orochimaru saying that Itachi surpasses him (which is kinda reminiscent of a certain "Back then, he saw through everything I did"). To say nothing of the feats that have been displayed in the manga, which effectively put Jiraiya a cut above the rest of the Sannin and more or less on par with Itachi. Slightly below or above him, depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

This effectively settles the argument in the opposition's favor. Those who said it was all about Jiraiya were actually right, and I now I get to eat crow
The Japanese themselves read that statement, with the Subject being Jiraiya and not Naruto.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShounenSuki View Post
The sentence most people fall over seems to be 「お守りが あの“伝説の三忍”とは」, which is usually translated as "His guard is one of the "legendary 3 ninja's"

However, translate it as "Naruto's caretaker..." or "The caretaker..." or something like that, and it becomes much more clear that they have been talking about Jiraiya. To be honest, even translating it as "His caretaker..." suggests this, but the "his" can be confusing as it suggests they have been talking about the person pronoun refers to. In the Japanese, there is no pronoun at all. It just says "caretaker".
ShounenSuki also believes the dialog is referring to Jiraiya. So two of the most prominent translators on this board believe it refers to Jiraiya and the native Japanese readers also believe it refers to Jiraiya. However even if we look at the statement logically, it doesn't make any sense for them to be referring to Naruto.

Kisame states that the person in question is definitively in another league from him: "He's in a different league"

Itachi states that at the very least when fighting the person in question, he would get hurt very badly: "At the very least we'd hurt each other badly".

Furthermore Itachi and Kisame had already seen Naruto at the Ramen Shop which is how they knew Jiraiya was his Guardian and why Kisame said this: "But... this child is the Kyuubi hmm". This shows that he was clearly aware of who Naruto was and that he was a child.

Considering they knew Naruto was a just a child, it makes no sense for them to be making definitive statements about how they would perform against Naruto or his "level" in comparison to theirs. Basically if we read the statements as if they're referring to Naruto, it means that even if Naruto being a child turned out to simply be your average Genin, he would still be out of Kisame's "league" and Itachi would still be hurt very badly.

And if they were that scared of Naruto, their actions don't match up in the slightest to their statements; considering when they did confront Naruto they didn't show a single ounce of caution or hesitation. Rather they simply knocked on the door and confidently asked, in an almost a joking manner, if Naruto would like to come with them

These are not the actions of people who believe (or even suspect) Naruto is an incredibly strong Ninja. In fact they took more precautions with Jiraiya using the woman to distract him, which would again suggest Jiriaya was the subject of their conversation.

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Itachi also had reason to lie
If Itachi was lying as presumably a means to protect Naruto, then saying something more along the lines of, "Jiraiya is too strong, we stand no chance against him." "Lets retreat for now and try again when Naruto isn't so heavily guarded" would make more sense. But instead Itachi suggests that he could fight equally with Jiraiya, which implies that Kisame will then be free to grab Naruto, while this dead even [or close to dead even] battle goes down. So if anything Itachi's statement would suggest, to Kisame that they at least had a chance [if not a very good chance] at accomplishing their mission.

Also Kisame, has no reason to lie about the difference between Itachi's strength and Jiraiya's, and even Kisame only believed Itachi "might" be able to fight equally with Jiraiya: "Even if you might be able to take him on"

Quote:
clearly contradicted his earlier statement,
I think there is a bit of misinterpretation of Itachi's earlier statement on the opposition's side of the debate. They seem to suggest that Itachi is saying he can only be defeated by a pure blood Uchiha with the MS, however in reality Itachi is talking about the Jutsu Tsukuyomi.

If we look at the actual conversation in context, it becomes obvious that they are talking about the Technique Tsukuyomi.

Kakashi says, "Most likely only another Sharingan user can counter this technique".

To which Itachi replies, "That is correct as long as one has the Sharingan...some resistance could be made to this mange sharingan" "However this technique is a special eye jutsu." "Genjutsu: Tsukuyomi".

And right after that, comes the comment in question; but one must look at the context. The whole time they are talking about Kakashi's chances of being able to resist the technique Itachi is about to use. That's why Itachi agrees that Kakashi may be able to resist it a bit, but states that he can't defeat him because he lacks Uchiha Blood, because he is saying Kakashi can't break Tsukuyomi with his Sharingan.

Another thing that lends credence to this is the interpretation repeated in Data-book 2 under the Tsukuyomi entry:

"Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness."

"Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?"

So like the author says in the Data-book, Itachi is simply talking about a person needing Uchiha Blood and Sharingan to break Tsukuyomi, not that he [as a person] could only be defeated by another Uchiha.

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and we know from Kisame that Itachi was recovering from the initial Tsukuyomi.
I'm guessing the opposition is trying to suggest that Itachi only made such a statement because he was weakened, however this ignores the context of the discussion between Itachi and Kisame.

Kisame was essentially asking how they would capture the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and complete their mission, with Jiraiya as his Guardian, considering Jiraiya's strength. To Which Itachi agrees that it will be a difficult task. So in the end they come up with the plan to use the woman as a distraction rather than take Jiraiya head on.

Now if the answer of what to do about Jiraiya was as simple as needing a few hours of rest, there is no reason why they wouldn't have gone that route instead of using the woman as a distraction, which they weren't very confident would work anyway.

Quote:
In any case, an ambiguous statement is a poor substitute for legitimate analysis on conflicting combat styles.
I'm not sure that I agree with you on that one Strategos. I think a clear indication from two intelligent and high ranking Shinobi [one of these shinobi being Itachi himself] of Jiraiya's rough equality to Itachi is probably a more accurate indication of how Jiraiya and Itachi would perform against each other, than any opinion based argument a reader could make about how their combat styles match up, especially when the author can and will augment their fighting styles and give them any new jutsu he deems necessary to progress the plot forward. But to each his own.


The Parallel's Between Jiraiya and Itachi

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Naruto stated their equality as a vague reference to the future, but said he could not presently defeat Sasuke
The funny thing about the future-tense, is that it can apply to a few minutes in the future, a day in the future, a month, etc... So Naruto had to be confident in his current ability to fight Sasuke to a draw, or he would not make such a blanket statement about being able to do so any time in the future.

As for Naruto saying he can't defeat Sasuke, well lets define the word "defeat":
"To win victory over"

Clearly Naruto does not win victory over Sasuke if both end up killing each other. So when Naruto says he can't defeat Sasuke, it actually falls perfectly in line with his previous statement; that the two would end up killing each other.

But if we want to look at it even deeper than that, we can define "victory":
"the state of having triumphed."

If Naruto and Sasuke kill each other mutually, Naruto has not triumphed over Sasuke. And we can keep going on like this examining the definition further, but it will never validate the conclusion that Naruto saying he can't defeat Sasuke contradicts his previous statement.

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Naruto had also surpassed Jiraiya in Sage Mode, but Sasuke had not surpassed Itachi in dōjutsu
Actually Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in Senjutsu, I.E. balancing his own spiritual and physical energy with natural energy. Whether Naruto's Sage Mode is better than Jiraiya's is opinion based. Based on whether you think its more valuable to have a more complete Sage Mode for 5 minute intervals or having a less complete Sage Mode which will last the entire battle.

This is the same type of opinion one has to come to on their own in accordance to who has the better Dojutsu abilities: Sasuke or Itachi. Itachi has a more complete Susano'o than Sasuke [though even that may not be true by the time the statement was made, since we saw Sasuke draw forth a complete Susano'o against Kakashi and only failed to hold it because of fatigue], but he has not shown himself to be able to hold it nearly as long as Sasuke.

So which is better? Holding a less perfect technique longer or holding a more perfect technique for a briefer period of time is opinion based and applies to both Naruto/Jiraiya and Sasuke/Itachi. Sasuke has also shown and has been stated to have mastered Amaterasu to a degree further than Itachi.

I'll leave the adjudicators and voters of the debate come to their own conclusions about this.

Quote:
Plus, interpretive parallels are not evidence, and Naruto and Sasuke are not Jiraiya and Itachi, so the argument does not apply.
This Parallel can be used as supporting evidence however, considering that Jiraiya and Naruto share similar techniques and Sasuke and Itachi share very similar techniques as well. if Naruto is able to combat Sharingan Genjutsu, Amaterasu, and Susano'o to a draw with Toad Summons, KB, A Large Chakra Supply, Rasengan Variants, and Senjutsu, that obviously implies Jiriaya who has all these techniques as well wouldn't be as hopeless against MS/Sharingan as the opposite side of the debate would have people believe.

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Itachi and Jiraiya are no more indicated as equals than Asuma and Kakuzu, or Gaara and Shizune. Nevertheless, Itachi has the most maximum scores of any ninja aside from Sarutobi Hiruzen, whereas Jiraiya has comparably few maximum scores, and is consequently better represented by fictitious "stat totals." But more importantly, stat totals are fan-fabricated, and indicate nothing in Battledome debates.
You can say that Stat Totals don't mean two shinobi are equals and I agree, but what do you think the author is trying to imply when he gives both Jiraiya and Itachi the best stats in DB3? Objectively speaking, I would say the author is trying to convey that Jiraiya and Itachi had the best skills/performances in the manga out of all the characters recorded in DB3. And this does in fact suggest a measure of equality.

Furthermore, the Blot chart used in the Data-books measures a Shinobi as a whole, or you could say shows us the total picture and the chart suggests that both Itachi and Jiraiya are the most complete Shinobi in DB3, by covering the biggest portions of the chart and that they are equally "complete".

We can even reference a very early lesson given to a Genin team 7 by Iruka sensei. We learn that those ninja who become the most complete when seeking the properties of both Heaven & Earth or Mind & Body are the best suited to be ninja. So you argue Itachi has "capped out" in more areas but we shouldn't ignore this simple lesson from Iruka because while Itachi may excel in the Heaven or Mind areas, he lacks what Jiraiya has in the Earth or Body areas.


Jiraiya's Fighting Style

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Wouldn't the intelligent method of handling three opponents be utilizing multiple Kage Bunshin, or multiple summons?
Jiriaya did in fact use Kage Bushin and Multiple Summons [Fusaku, Shima, and distraction toad].

However using multiple summons or Kage bushin is not the most intelligent method to taking on the three paths of Pain. Thee most intelligent method is to do what Jiraiya actually did in the battle: fall back, assess the enemies' abilities [1], come up with a plan to defeat them, making use of a technique they potentially don't expect from Jiraiya, and than use an attack capable of hitting and defeating all three at once.

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Jiraiya's versatility repeatedly. Jiraiya had been drugged, but his chakra control was adequately recovered in view of the fact that he was using the tree-walking method.
Using the Tree walking method does not indicated that Jiraiya's chakra control had "adequately" recovered. Naruto in Part 1 was capable of using the tree-walking method, but despite this Ebisu still says that Naruto's chakra control is horrible.

So all Jiraiya successfully using Tree Walking method proves is that at that point he had chakra control equal to Wave Arc Naruto, which we are still told is a horrible level of chakra control.

Beyond that, even quite a while after the event in question, Jiraiya still questions his ability to summon Gamabunta because of the effects of the poison, saying "this better work".

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Moreover, Jiraiya did not attempt to engage Itachi, Orochimaru, or Pain at long range; in Pain's case
  1. His First move against Orochimaru was a Long Range Jutsu, while falling back after summoning Gamabunta failed. So obviously that counts as Jiraiya engaging Orochimaru at long range.
  2. Against Itachi there were obvious circumstance at play that prevented any ranged combat, such as him having to protect Naruto.
  3. Against Konan he fell back and used ranged attacks [1] [2]
  4. Against Pain he fell back and used ranged attacks [1] [2] [3] [4]

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Gamaken was simply losing ground while engaging.
The Toads simply fight this way. When they are attacked they jump incredible distances to evade the attack [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. And When they attack they do huge forward leaping attacks as well [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. They are toads after all. They're not comfortable walking or running. It's in their blood to hop.

The reason this is bad for Itachi, is that if Itachi tries to close the distance to attack; whatever Toad Jiraiya summons will evade with a Giant Leap. And this will create a distance between the two which will be insurmountable for Itachi, considering how far they can leap. The opposition seems to believe that Itachi with his high speed can rather easily overcome this difference, but that is simply false:

Spoiler:


I request the esteemed judges to take a good hard look at just how great of a distance a Giant Toad was capable of covering in one leap [and there was some resistance there from Shukaku as well]. I don't think I would be exaggerating when saying, it looks like Gamabunta covered a gargantuan distance in the above leap. Itachi covering the same distance with his speed before a Giant Toad leaps again seem fairly outlandish, but when you add on top of it that Jiraiya has access to massive AOE Techniques like Gamayu Endan, Yomi Numa, and Suiton: Teppōdama , Itachi accomplishing this seems nearly impossible.

Itachi will need Susano'o to block these attacks, because the AOE is just too great for him to dodge: Suiton: Teppōdama are Giant Water Bullets that can be rapid fired in large quantities(in fact they remind one of Katon: Goryuuka which Itachi only just dodged and which happen to be smaller than Teppodama and were less in number), Gamayu Endan covers over a mile sized area in flames, and Yomi Numa even a pathetically small one according to Jiraiya [DB2, "But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient"], covered a massive distance. Even if Itachi had the speed and foresight to evade these techniques in time he could not cover the distance necessary in time to evade them.

Using Susano'o is an acceptable counter [Though its ability to counter Yomi Numa is hardly guaranteed], but the problem is Susano'o will slow Itachi down even more, making it even harder to close the gap between him and Jiraiya. We know Susano'o will slow him down from the following:

DB3, "A guardian deity to its caster, it eats away their life at the same time."

Zetsu2: "It appears that *Susanoo* or what's-its-name
is quite a burden on its user."


Sasuke: "Every cell in my body hurts... So this is the risk that Susanoo carries...) // *pant* // *pant* // *pant* // (If I keep using it for too long, then this happens... // And this is without even managing to call forth its full form...... // Just how much pain must Itachi have......?"

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Jiraiya uses one Kage Bunshin at a time.
Jiraiya uses the amount of Kage Bushin that are necessary for the scenario he is in. Against the 3 Paths he only needed one Kage Bushin to accomplish the task of cutting of the Path's dual vision [1]. That doesn't mean he wouldn't use more Kage Bushin if the situation required him to do so, especially if his enemy was also using Bunshin.


Jiraiya's Counter's to Itachi's Fighting Style

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Itachi frequently uses more efficient Karasu Bunshins.
Karasu Bushin consumes less chakra than Kage Bushin, but Jiraiya's large chakra supply makes it so using Kage Bushin is very efficient for his fighting style and abilities.

Beyond that the thing that the opposition, doesn't seem to address is that we don't even know if Itachi can use Karasu Bushin w/o prep-time, using some type of Kuchiyose technique, or how many times he can do it. The reason we don't know this is because of the mechanics of Karasu Bushin.

DB3, "A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows"".

The Bushin is formed by Itachi projecting his Chakra into living and breathing crows, so the question is where does he get these crows from and what supply of them does he have access to. So while it may cost less chakra than Kage Bushin, Itachi's ability to use it is logically limited in some fashion, since he can not conjure crows out of thin air. Thus it seems very doubtful that Itachi will be able to use this technique as freely as Jiraiya can use Kage Bushin, therefore I would even suggest that in the overall scheme of the battle, Karasu Bushin may very well, prove less efficient than Kage Bushin in the hands of someone with Jiraiya's Chakra Supply.

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When confronting a toad, the Mangekyō Sharingan's power to control the Nine Tails, the same power that Sasuke used to control Manda, becomes invaluable.
Problem is the Toads will have a partner that can break them out of the Genjutsu or hit Itachi disrupting it. Furthermore it is not difficult for some to perceive that a summon is in this type of Genjutsu, since the sharingan's image is projected in the summon's eyes and for Jiraiya since he has fought alongside the Toads for so many years, he can very likely tell immediately just from the differences in their actions that they are in Genjutsu.

Breaking any Toads out should not be much of problem for Jiraiya ether, since most of the time he rides on top of their heads, making it easy for him to simply touch them and break them out. Also attacking Itachi to disrupt the Genjutsu with a quick Jutsu like Yomi Numa wouldn't be much of a problem ether. Finally if worse comes the worse, he can de-summon whatever summon is being controlled and simply summon another Toad in its place.

So the strategy of Itachi using MS Genjutsu to control a summon, would only prove counter productive, considering he would be damaging his eyes and consuming Chakra/Stamina to place a Toad in Genjutsu that Jiriaya can most likely easily free from said Genjutsu and even in the best case Scenario for Itachi the Toad would be replaced with a new one.

Also, one must note that in both the instances [Tobi controlling Kyuubi and Sasuke controlling Manda], the sharingan user controlled a summon they themselves had a contract with which Itachi lacks against the toads. This is directed at the theory that it's not a genjutsu but a sharingan dojutsu that allows the user to control summons.

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Fukasaku and Shima are providing natural energy, he forms his own chakra, and the partner method does not work against Itachi's Tsukuyomi. The results of controlling Shima or Fukasaku may be a less comical version of this.
Having Fukasaku and Shima as partners would render all of Itachi's Genjutsu useless except Tsukuyomi, but it would certainly aid in defending against Tsukuyomi none the less, considering Fukasaku and Shima's abilities.

Shima can use her Dust Cloud Jutsu or Fukasaku can use a Smoke Screen, to completely cut off Itachi's Line Of Sight. From there because of the three's other abilities such as Jiriaya's Detection Barrier and Shima's ability to detect completely invisible enemies via her tongue, Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima will have the advantage and basically render Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu completely useless.

Another way having partners helps is that Fukasaku and Shima can make eye contact for Jiraiya, following the enemy, thus meaning Itachi would have to waste Tskuyomi on them before he could even attempt to use it on Jiraiya. Jiraiya can also have all of his Toads or even a Kage Bushin do this for him.

Not that I think Jiraiya would throw Shima, Fukasaku, or any toads under the chopping block, but Jiraiya has knowledge of Tsukuyomi and if they were in an important life or death battle it's only logical to assume that Fukasaku, Shima, and Jiraiya would protect the most important person necessary to achieve victory, and in this instance that would be Jiriaya. So if some one needs to take the risk of making eye contact with Itachi, that person would be a Kage Bushin, Another Toad, or Fukasaku/Shima instead of Jiraiya.

With that aside, Tsukuyomi is labeled as a "Close range" Jutsu in the Data-book and Jiraiya does fall back when he becomes wary of the enemies abilities, even using a smoke screen [1]. So if one of the Toads sees the MS, given Jiraiya's knowledge he may very well fall back or at least put some good distance between him and Itachi [using a smoke screen will also help to block Itachi's LOS], thus escaping the range at which Tsukuyomi can be cast.

So between the abilities of Fukasaku, Shima, Jiraiya, other Toads, Kage Bunshin and his knowledge, its going to be very hard for Itachi to land Tsukuyomi.

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Also, Jiraiya did not treat the Rinnegan with that level of caution. Splitting his chakra in thirds, with a summon on the field, is excessive and unsupported.
Of course Jiraiya treated the Rinnegan with a high "level" of caution. Jiraiya fell back and kept his distance using Long Range Techniques, he almost immediately began preparing Sage Mode after summoning a Giant Toad to defend, and fell back using a smoke screen when he became wary of Pain's abilities.

Now if you talking about Jiraiya not attempting to avoid eye contact, against the Rinnegan or put up a defense against Genjutsu. Well that's because Rinnegan is not know as an "illusion eye capable of casting illusions", like the Sharingan is referred to in the Data-book . The Rinnegan is also not a Kekkai Genkai held by many members of a clan who are infamous with Genjutsu enough, that there is "general rule" on how to deal with said Genjutsu.

Jiraiya also didn't have knowledge on Pain, that specifically indicates that Pain is incredible at Genjutsu, like he does when it comes to Itachi since he saw Tsukuyomi first hand [1]. So the circumstances here are different enough that the opposition's comparison clearly does not apply.

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Jiraiya's hair is attached to his head. The full speed and power of Amaterasu is enough to burn through fireproof material before Itachi can sprint ten yards
Actually its unclear if it burned through the Iwagama that fast, because of its sheer offensive might or because it was directed at a glass window at the back of the hallway, causing the whole thing to explode; As we know glass does when exposed to extreme heat like that[1]

In-fact other feats suggest that the window had more to do with it than offensive might, such as how long it took for the flames to burn through the Samurai's armor [1] or Karin's body/clothing [2].

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and the only method to foresee Amaterasu is by focusing on the Mangekyō Sharingan.
I already covered this when discussing Jiraiya's counters to Tsukuyomi, so please refer back to the parts about how Fukasaku and Shima can make eye contact, smoke screen's, Kage Bunshin, etc...

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Considering that Sasuke was unable to outrun Amaterasu, even while using the speed amplification of his Juin, reflex amplification of the Sharingan, and despite sprinting before Itachi formed Amaterasu, then a half-blind Jiraiya relying on imperfect sight substitution is unlikely to fare better than Sasuke's Juin Wing.
Shunshin no Jutsu works by the user vitalizing their body with Chakra, which means the more Chakra one can pump into it the more potent it will be:

DB3, "In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds."

This is why Bee's and Raikage's Shunshin no Jutsu is so impressive and why Raikage amps up his Chakra levels before using his Shunshin. Jiraiya has far more Chakra/Stamina than Sasuke [a 5 roof tier in the Data-book to Sasuke's 3.5] and in Sage Mode all of his Jutsu are enhanced in potency by Senjutsu:

DB3, "by kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use senjutsu (仙術, Sage Techniques), rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu"

Between Jiraiya having far more Chakra to vitalize his body with than Sasuke and having his Shunshin enhanced by Senjutsu, the potential for Jiraiya to vastly out perform Sasuke when it comes to evading Amaterasu is very high.


Misconceptions Surrounding Jiraiya's Techniques

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You are assuming that Jiraiya will test his defense, with his vision restricted, and remain unscarred, despite having equal reflexes to Orochimaru, who was pierced in between words?
Jiraiya has techniques that can test Susano'o defense from an incredibly long distance away [Gamayu Endan, Yomi Numa, Rapid Fire Water Bullets, etc..] and he doesn't even need to confirm Itachi's exact position to do this because they have great AOE. Jiraiya can also send a Toad or Kage Bushin in to test the waters.

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Jiraiya said his Kuchiyose is very taxing,
Actually he was telling Naruto that he was going to teach him a technique that will use up a lot of Naruto's chakra. Never did Jiraiya indicate it's super taxing for him to use Kuchiyose.

In fact that runs contrary to his actual feats in the manga, considering in the Pain fight he summoned: Fusaku, Shima, Gamaken, Distraction Toad, Barrier Gourd Toad, and he had summoned Toad Shop right before the fight. He did all of that while still using countless other techniques.

Besides that, Jiriaya can be aided when it comes to summoning by other Toads. Shima showed she is more than capable of summoning a small army of toads, when she summoned Fusaku, Naruto, Gammakichi, Gammabunta, Gammaken, and Gammahiro to Konoha during the Pain Invasion Arc. Fusaku also showed he was capable of using Kuchiyose when he summoned Naruto clones from myobokuzan.

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Jiriaya implied that Yatai Kazushi is more easily evaded than the senbon technique
Jiraiya implied Senbon was his fastest attack, that does not translate to it being his hardest attack to evade. How hard the attack is to evade, is dependent on its speed and its scope. Clearly Jiraiya has attacks that are not as fast as Senbon, but are equally as hard to evade, if not harder because of their scope; Yatai Kazushi depending on how its used is one such attack [So is Yomi Numa, Gamma Endan, etc..]. Especially when Jiraiya can use attacks like Yatai Kuzushi, while Itachi is busy dealing with a toad or some attack of Jiraiya's.

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that Animal Path reacted to.
Animal Path also had access to the greatest perception ability in the entire manga, even greater than Byakugan, which is in-turn greater than even Sharingan.

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There is no implication of distance, other than the mentioned several hundred-foot dive.
Obviously Yatai Kazushi can be used at different distances, which is why its stated to be effective at "close, medium, long ranges". It's also stated that "In the case of someone like Jiraiya from the Sannin, the summon can be performed in an instant right above the target".

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Well, the Sharingan discerns a technique's particulars based on the user's seals and chakra
Which would tell Itachi that its a Doton Technique, but I don't see how it would tell him its Yomi Numa specifically unless he had prior knowledge of what seals make up that exact Jutsu.

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the battlefield is covered with water
The battlefield is not really covered by water. There is a Canal but there's a lot more land. However, in a fight between two Shinobi of Itachi's and Jiraiya's stature especially when it will most likely involve Giant Toads leaping all over the place, it's very unlikely that the battle will remain contained in the Canal.

Furthermore, it's also likely that Jiraiya can transform the Canal into a Swamp, by casting the Swamp on the Ground beneath the Canal and having it absorb the water. Jiriaya's Yomi Numa was enough to halfway sink a Giant Snake Summon in the Sannin Duel, and according to the Data-book this was not nearly Base Jiriaya's largest/deepest swamp: "But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient".

Now considering Senjutsu greatly enhances the effectiveness of all Jiriaya's Ninjutsu, his swamp in Sage Mode would be even deeper/larger than his largest swamp in Base Mode [Which still remains a mystery to us, except it being much larger than the one he used on Oro's Giant Snake]. Thus the likelihood of Yomi Numa being able to absorb the Canal, especially with successive uses is very likely, especially when Jiraiya is in Sage Mode, but he can more than likely accomplish this in Base Mode as well. Furthermore at the very least Jiraiya even in base should be able to turn the Canal into a Quagmire filled with "adhesive, chakra-infused mud" limiting Itachi's movements significantly and probably forcing Itachi to flee the Canal at which point he can hit him with the real deal.

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the Yata Mirror freely alters both nature and shape to counter any technique
So the Shield may be able to counter the part of the swamp covering it, that doesn't help the rest of Susano'o, though. However even if one was to assume the best case scenario for Itachi, where he is able to free himself from the swamp thanks to Yata mirror, the swamp will still succeed in greatly slowing him down. Slowing him down in the obvious sense that he'll have to spend time and effort to deal with the Swamp [Which gives Jiriaya time to land another attack, create some distance between them, etc..] and slow Itachi down in the sense that using Susano'o will drain him physically and thus have a negative effect on his movements.

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Provided that Itachi was unable to control or injure Fukasaku and Shima, Nikushimi pointed out that Jiraiya would need to run away and hide, and even then, Itachi is an Uchiha with the Mangekyō Sharingan, and a specialist in the field genjutsu. The second databook states that Kurenai possesses equal skill to Itachi, but because of his dōjutsu's power and kekkei genkai, he was able to dominate her in a battle of illusions. Lastly, sound and vision are methods of genjutsu infiltration, but because the Amegakure trio were concealed when Team 7 was taken in by their genjutsu, the Sharingan is helpful against more than vision-based genjutsu.
Itachi is equipped to deal with most Genjutsu, however Itachi has never gone up against a Genjutsu of this class before, that is empowered by Sage Chakra. Furthermore even if Itachi's able to get out of it eventually, Frog Song could still easily expose an opening on him and Jiriaya only needs to land one good attack on Itachi to kill him. So even if Itachi were able to break out of an auditory genjutsu that paralyzes the body and mind and utilizes Sage chakra, it is still going to take him some time. And Jiraiya can kill Itachi easily in that time.


Conclusion

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In contrast, Itachi is the more efficient clone user with more efficient illusions and controlling dōjutsu. Itachi's speed and Sharingan indicate that he can likely evade even Jiraiya's fastest technique, particularly if applied with restricted vision or at range. More importantly, Itachi can instantly incapacitate or immolate Jiraiya in close range, and Jiraiya often prefers close range combat.
Of course against an enemy of Itachi caliber Jiraiya has to bring his A game and he obviously will given his knowledge of how dangerous an opponent Itachi can be, but so does Itachi.

Itachi has to fight a constant uphill battle just to make sure the distance gap between Jiraiya and him doesn't suddenly become too massive and insurmountable for him to use his best techniques [or for that matter any technique at all]. Itachi has to make sure he is very cautious in his usage of his best techniques, because of the great strain they put on someone with his relatively poor health, sight, and chakra/stamina supply, against an enemy who can use the Kage Bushin Jutsu fairly freely. Also unfortunately for Itachi, he will most likely need Susano'o to survive many of Jiraiya's massive AOE attacks that he is incapable of dodging [Gamayu Endan, Water Bullets, Yomi Numa, etc...] and this will drain him significantly as well as slow his movements down.

Furthermore, while Itachi suffers from eyesight and health issues he has to make sure he doesn't expose a single opening, even as small as the ones he exposed when hit by Sasuke's Trap Shuriken or Katon technique, because he does not have the durability necessary to survive getting hit from almost any of Jiriaya's techniques and when Jiriaya enters Sage Mode even a single physical attack landing can be fatal for Itachi.

But most importantly Itachi will be fighting against the clock. Because every minute that passes where he doesn't defeat Jiraiya, his chances of victory will become smaller, because of his small chakra/stamina supply coupled with his incredibly taxing signature jutsu and health in contrast to Jiraiya's incredible stamina/chakra supply and vitality.

While I am also sure that Itachi like Jiraiya will bring his A game against an opponent of Jiraiya's stature, he will be pressured just as much as Jiraiya during this fight, if not more so. Furthermore Jiraiya possess the necessary skills to completely dominate Itachi; If Jiraiya were to keep up a smokescreen or smokescreen technique for most of the battle and use the detection jutsus he has, to fight effectively within said smoke screen, Itachi will be in a more overwhelming disadvantageous position than Jiraiya would ever find himself.

Within such a smoke screen Itachi's Sharingan Prediction, Sharingan Forsight, Sharingan Genjutsu [Including Tsukuyomi], and Amaterasu would all be rendered useless. Despite any advantages Itachi may have in CQC or Mid range Combat, he still will not be able to fight as effectively as Jiraiya can thanks to his detection techniques within the smoke screen and Itachi will essentially be completely at Jiriaya mercy or forced to spam Susano'o just to stay afloat in the battle.

I'm not saying Jiraiya will undoubtedly overwhelm Itachi to this extent, but it should be remarked that the potential exists for him to fight this way [especially once he witnesses Itachi's dojutsu], and if he does, Itachi will be pressured throughout the battle to a far greater extent than Jiraiya ever will or can be.


In the end, I'd like to close this debate by saying this was a great experience for us and we had a lot of fun. A great event organized by Suu and we thank him for it. As well as the contributors. Be it the people who advised changes to the format, or the opposition team for their great speeches, or the adjudicators and potential voters for taking the time to go through these speeches and ultimately judge, or the people who are just reading this for the heck of it. We thank you all and we hope to see this event be an even greater success and continue being fun, entertaining, and an example for all debaters to follow.

Thank you

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:28 AM   #7
Vergil642
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Default Third Speaker for Team Itachi

It is my philosophy in this debate that the ideal contributions should be direct and focused on the topic at hand. As such I will launch directly into Team Itachi’s response.

Gama Mise

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The first toad I would like to point out is Gama Mise no Jutsu. From the links provided you will see that the toad can change not only its size, but its shape as well and it also provides an enclosed space to perform the Frog Stomach technique. Or one might even say it is the Frog Stomach technique in full size.

To take the point a little further, should Jiraiya get Itachi into this toad it could be a major cause of concern for Itachi. We have seen a similar version of this jutsu previously employed against Itachi and he was forced to use Amaterasu to escape.
Gama Mise is a toad that can transform into a small building. It is unlikely that Itachi would fail to notice a house appearing on the riverbank, and even less likely that he would willingly follow Jiraiya into such a suspicious building; he might actually incinerate the toad with a Katon. If Jiraiya were to successfully grab Itachi then it would be more effective to strike him down with an immediately lethal jutsu such as Rasengan than attempt to drag him into the toad.

Gama Hyoro

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From the data book: * There exists a "barrier space" that is isolated from the outside world.

What you may find interesting about this particular exert is that Pain (with 5 separate pairs of eyes searching directly after Jiraiya snatched a body into the barrier) could not locate this toad. So there is the potential for Jiraiya to use this for very obvious advantages of elusively maneuvering around Itachi's keen senses.
Gama Hyoro has no feats, as Pain was taken in offscreen. The databook states that Jiraiya must first summon the gourd toad and then drag the enemy in. In the manga, Jiraiya says that Animal Realm charged into the barrier. Therefore, without seeing how Animal Realm entered the barrier and without seeing how Jiraiya drags a victim into the toad we are left with nothing but conjecture as to how effective the jutsu would be against Itachi. If Jiraiya were to grab Itachi, it follows that he could drag him into the kekkai, but then why not simply kill him with an instantly fatal jutsu on contact?

Water

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To finalize in a more direct answer to the initial points made by Nikushimi, should Itachi take to the water in order to make his jutsu effective he is inviting a wealth of options for Jiraiya and dangers to himself.
Itachi's use of Suitons is arguably more advantageous. Suijinheki, the water wall, has the elemental advantage to protect Itachi from Katons or projectile techniques. Evidently, he can also utilize this defense so quickly we were given no indication that he even performed handseals. Additionally, Suigadan is a great threat. Kakashi grimly commented that ”His jutsu is too fast”. Moreover, Kakashi’s speed at the time was tier 4.5, comparable to Jiraiya’s, but he also has the Sharingan, and even the most basic levels of the Sharingan have taken ninja from being utterly incapable of reacting to successfully evading attacks, and saving teammates Moreover, considering that the jutsu can be used from an enemy's blindspot, then the open water is Itachi's best friend.

Style

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Given Jiraiya's nature I have to strongly disagree on him making any approach in this situation. At least not until he is completely ready with whatever he found appropriate in this match up. After such preparations are made I would have no problem agreeing to the idea of him closing the gap between himself and Itachi.
Judging from Jiraiya’s previous performances it seems clear that, even with a giant summon out, Jiraiya prefers a direct approach. He has never hung back and fought at long distance in the manga. If Itachi is on the water, this an important factor due to the threat that Itachi's Suitons pose to Jiraiya.

1. When facing Itachi and Kisame, he summons a small toad to defend Naruto, but then releases the Kuchiyose, and engaged the enemy directly.

2. Against Orochimaru, he attempts the Kuchiyose to match Orochimaru's summons, but when this fails, he does not attempt to keep his distance from Orochimaru, and actively pursues him. He refrains from using any further summons until Tsunade escalates the scale of the battle with Katsuya

3. Against Konan, he did not use any summons. He used a Katon, and then immediately exploited her weakness to oil.

4. When Animal Realm joins the fray, Jiraiya first utilizes Ranjishigami. He summoned Gamaken after Animal Path summoned his chameleon, and then spends a significant part of the fight charging at Pain in a very direct fashion.

Toads

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* While Jiraiya is on his toad he is effectively safe from any distant assault attempts. It will offer him a major height/distance advantage that wont really allow for many effective attacks based on Itachi's arsenal. If it is Gamaken he not only has a shield for protection but can also cover large distances by leaping and affording Jiraiya more room and safety or bringing him in closer to attack. * Jiraiya aside, Itachi isn't much of a threat to the summon, so while dodging is effective for keeping him safe, it accomplishes nothing for Itachi offensively. * Last but certainly not least this "safety blanket" for Jiraiya allows him time to prepare further offensive or defensive measures whether it be more summons, Kage Bunshin's or preparation for Sennin Mode.
Jiraiya’s apparent preference for the direct approach will likely miss the far faster Itachi, who I would argue is likely to make his way on to the summons’ back to confront Jiraiya directly. Which would negate the defensive boons the summons grant. We have some precedent of this from Jiraiya himself when he confronted Orochimaru as linked above, and Deva Realm has shown us that fast, agile characters can use giant summons as stepping stones. Despite their great size, the three giant summons in Jiraiya’s arsenal would be relatively incapable of successfully preventing Itachi from reaching Jiraiya, especially when Itachi possesses eyes that can freely control summons, or that genjutsu could trick the summons into attacking Jiraiya.

Seals

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To reiterate, it is a special advantage for Sharingan users to be able to read signs and learn of attacks in advance, but it certainly isn't a disadvantage to Jiraiya that he cant follow a seal speed he normally wouldn't attempt to anyway.
Itachi has the capability to execute Ninjutsu faster than Jiraiya can see. Unless his reactions are on par with Kakashi's Sharingan, it is hard to imagine that he will be capable of reacting to some of Itachi’s fastest jutsu, such as Suigadan, before being injured. This is also an advantage when Itachi is utilising Karasu Bunshins, since Itachi may replace himself with the clone, or otherwise have one support him in battle as they did when used against Sasuke. A Karasu Bunshin suddenly appearing could capture Jiraiya in a quick, paralyzing genjutsu. In doing so, Jiraiya would be left open to any subsequent attack. Beyond this Itachi’s clear capability to execute handseals with such blistering speed would allow him to perform two actions virtually simultaneously. With this ability Itachi could effectively perform two actions in roughly the time it takes Jiraiya to perform one, which has serious implications for this battle.

Line of Sight

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This is absolutely true assuming we overlook all of Jiraiya's methods of keeping eye contact from being an issue. Not only does he have his Detection Barrier to know when an opponent is close to him, he has his toad that is keeping him at a distance while also attempting to keep Itachi at a distance and the toad is capable of sending warning should Jiraiya not be looking and Itachi were able to bypass all of the obstacles. All above things considered, that also affords Jiraiya the ability to employ smoke bombs without worry of interfering to much with his own vision because of his Detection Barrier and partner on the field. Lastly I want to mention how your specific scenario assumes Jiraiya isn't actually doing anything. Should he choose to fire off a Katon that effectively puts Itachi on the defensive or blocks LOS, genjutsu becomes a non issue.
The detection barrier is only effective at locating Itachi, not telling Jiraiya what he is doing or otherwise allowing Jiraiya to fight blind, and any lag between a toad telling Jiraiya what Itachi is doing will lead to a significant reduction in Jiraiya’s reaction time, especially if the toad in under genjutsu or being otherwise controlled. Smoke bombs are an effective method of reducing eye contact, but they work both ways since Itachi is used to fighting with his vision impaired, and having feats indicating stunning accuracy even when not using his eyes. I also find it a little odd that you seem to be implying that using a Katon will be an impairment to Itachi using genjutsu. I do not deny that it can effectively block Jiraiya’s vision of his eye and finger, but it’s only effective for the seconds the fireball is actually in his face.

Genjutsu

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* Both of these Shinobi can use the Rasengan technique. A technique said to be the highest level of shape manipulation, which is basically telling us it takes a fair amount of chakra control to use. The difference between the 2 ninja is that it requires Naruto to use twice the manpower or twice the effort to use the Rasengan then it does Jiraiya. If we break that down into a simple form of mathematics that tells us Naruto is at best only half as skilled with chakra control when it comes to forming the Rasengan
*As a final note I would like to remind everyone that Itachi's initial intention of the genjutsu was to make Naruto go to sleep. As you are all aware, that was never the result showing us that Naruto was indeed able to form some resistance to the technique.
Attempting to use Rasengan to prove Naruto has half the skill in chakra control than Jiraiya does is extremely unreliable. It is quite possible that Naruto has 90% of the chakra control Jiraiya has, but until he has 95% he will be incapable of using Rasengan one handed without help. Of course, while it appears Naruto did put up some defence against Itachi’s finger genjutsu this was quickly crushed when Itachi actually did something. The psychological warfare he employed would have defeated Naruto had he not been saved by Sakura and Chiyo. Besides this, the paltry resistance Naruto exhibited is not proof that Jiraiya can recognise he is within a realistic genjutsu and then escape from it before Itachi manages to capitalise. We have precedence here, in the form of Sasuke’s weak, but subtle Genjutsu that allowed him to best Danzou.

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Jiraiya is going to have defensive help on the battlefield in the form of a toad or possibly more as well as the potential for having a Kagebunshin available for protection. So Itachi still has obstacles should he attempt to take advantage of a landed genjutsu. The last point I will make is that this is assuming Jiraiya doesn't break this genjutsu quickly enough to prevent Itachi from taking advantage or that his toad hasn't broken him out or jumped to a safe distance away from Itachi.
Although largely already addressed, I feel I should point out that Jiraiya has never summoned more than one giant summon at once. Considering the exhaustion he suffered during the Sannin’s battle, and even when allowing for him to waste chakra due to having his chakra control interfered with, despite using the tree-walking method, he would still be ill advised to do this. Itachi’s capability to turn a giant summon against him makes this a foolish move. What’s more, you are not taking into account the possibility of Itachi putting Jiraiya under a Genjutsu before he has summoned a giant toad. Itachi can layer his Genjutsu, as shown against Sasuke. If he layered his Genjutsu and Jiraiya broke one layer, he has absolutely no reason to believe he’s still under a Genjutsu if it is one that mimics reality.

Shunshin

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*The main and obvious point of concern here is the amount of chakra Jiraiya needs to have access to. According to Nikushimi and the manga the Raikage needed "Bijuu" amounts of chakra in order to perform his legendary Shunshin. So let us address what we know about Jiraiya's stamina and chakra amounts.
* The first and easiest place to find answers is in the data book where Jiraiya is giving a stamina rating of 5. Now as well all know that is the "roof" tier which essentially puts him in a limitless bracket that cannot be determined to an exact amount.
* The next (and most important) piece of evidence is what Pa tells us about Jiraiya's amount of chakra. He informs us that in order to even safely undertake the training you need enormous amounts of chakra. I am sure I don't need to define exactly what enormous mean to anyone so I will point out what else strikes me as interesting in what Pa said. He says the training is about "Naruto and Jiraiya specifically" before he mentions the amounts of chakra. So he is basically comparing Naruto and Jiraiya's amounts of chakra and as everyone knows, Naruto has the 9 tails inside of him.
*Sage chakra is said to provide a serious power up to ninjutsu. So if we take the above information and assume Jiraiya is at least in the ballpark of Naruto's chakra level (which can easily be defined as Bijuu level) and combine it with the knowledge that Sage chakra significantly boosts ninjutsu, its a pretty safe bet that Jiraiya can in fact use a Shunshin on the same level as A, the Raikage.
If all it took to perform the ungodly shunshin technique that the Yondaime Raikage managed was inhuman amounts of chakra then Kisame would be able to blitz any opponent if given a few seconds to pump his chakra up. Furthermore having a 5 in the stamina stat is not the same as having chakra comparable to a Bijuu’s. Nothing indicates Jiraiya can dodge Amaterasu without seeing the Mangekyō Sharingan, which would make him vulnerable to Tsukuyomi. Lastly, Jiraiya is fast in Sage Mode, he was capable of pressuring shared vision, but Itachi’s speed stat, which reflects reflexes and bodily movement, is already a maximum of 5, and he has Sharingan enhancements on top of that.

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One point that seems to be consistently forgotten in regards to Jiraiya is that he will have help on the field. Not only will he constantly have a frog partner that could potentially use the scroll for him, he could also have a Kagebunshin available.
Jiraiya surviving a direct hit from Amaterasu for long enough that a toad can seal the flames away is unlikely, because nothing indicates that any toad summon can use Fuinjutsu: Fuka Houin. It is plainly visible that a kanji symbol appeared and filled the clear gap in the scroll indicating that it is indeed a one use only item. Furthermore no evidence exists suggesting it can be used multiple times. Regardless of one’s views on how much of a gamble Amaterasu is, Itachi had no qualms about using two consecutively against Sasuke, first to consume his Katon and second to destroy the majority of his body.

Susano'o

Quote:
I think the way to go about discussing Susanoo is the possible attacks Jiraiya can employ to bypass it. As opposed to simply writing it off as impenetrable.
Before Jiraiya attempts to bypass Susano'o it seems likely that he would try and break through it. As we’ve seen in his fights, he does prefer the direct approach and has no qualms about attempting to defeat an opponent by simply hitting them with a very powerful jutsu. He rarely hangs back to analyse a situation in battle since the only time he did so was when Pain was shutting down his every attack with exceptional precision. You may argue of course that after bouncing off Susano'o a few times that it is likely Jiraiya will hang back to analyse it, but that would require the assumption that Itachi will do nothing but stand around while Jiraiya attacks him.

Quote:
*The first technique I will bring up is Yomi Numa. This is a technique that turns the ground into a trap swamp. The interesting thing here is that the shield of Susanoo blocks incoming attacks but Yomi Numa isn't an attack or "incoming" for that matter. It simply appears below the target if Jiraiya wills it to do such. We have never seen any indication that Susanoo provides defense for jutsu that come from below and aren't necessarily "attacks".
Yomi Numa is not an effective jutsu in this environment simply because the majority of it is water. It has no feats, databook descriptions or character statements indicating it can be used on water. Beyond that, Susanoo’s Yata’s Mirror is described as “The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.” In making the jutsu ineffective, Yata’s Mirror should be more than capable of countering Yomi Numa. As long as the mirror is touching the jutsu it should take effect on it and counter it

Quote:
*I guess the first thing that we should make a note of is where Orochimaru was or what he was attached to. He was inside the mouth in one head of his Yamata no Orochi jutsu. While we cant say it with 100% certainty, we should still address the fact that this could have potentially limited his mobility. As is pretty common knowledge, moving an object as large as the snake head with as much quickness or mobility as an averaged sized body is not not going to happen.
*Orochimaru was charging forward at Itachi with no worry of injury or intention to dodge. So to compare someone like that to any other ninja with what we might label "average" durability and try to claim it as a speed feat simply doesn't work.
In normal physics a larger object requires more force to move quickly, and larger muscles allow creatures to cover more distance in less time. In Naruto physics, a giant chakra construct can swing a sword so fast that we can debate if a superhumanly fast man could not see it move before it impaled him. Nothing indicates that the snake heads were slow, and even if they were, Orochimaru doesn’t have to move the head very far to avoid being impaled. What’s more, he didn’t even attempt to move, or seemingly register he was being attacked until after the event. There is a clear change in his very speech pattern in how his sentence trails off after he is interrupted: Susanoo struck him between words. The surprise is even more evident in that a question mark finishes his sentence, indicating that Orochimaru is wondering what exactly just happened and has yet to comprehend a giant sword just impaled him.

Itachi also struck after he has used Susanoo to decapitate Orochimaru’s snake heads and halted his assault. Most importantly, Orochimaru’s personality and immortality does not make him attempt to take hits. You are mistaking a lack of concern for injury after the fact for a lack of concern for being wounded. Orochimaru always attempts to defend himself and avoid being wounded but if he is wounded he tends to just laugh it off because, well, he can.

Speed

Quote:
A couple of things can be quickly addressed here.
* Speed =/= reflex or avoid-ability.
* Nothing here accounts for the increase Sennin Mode would bring should Jiraiya be in it.
You are ignoring the fact that the speed stat explicitly covers both reactions and body movements. With a 4.5 each, it is clear that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are comparable when it comes to reactions and body movements. Sage Mode gives enough of a boost to Jiraiya’s speed; that is sufficient to argue that he can now dodge the Totsuka, but considering its size and speed, this is going be difficult. With his attention almost wholly concentrated on evading the giant and extremely fast sword chasing him, it will be difficult for Jiraiya to counter whatever else Itachi is aiming at him, such as Amaterasu, or even a lesser fireball. Just one slip up, and Susano'o will skewer him.

Closing Statement

In closing the main thrust of Team Itachi’s argument is as follows. Genjutsu must be given a mention as it is almost certainly going to be an essential part of this battle, being Itachi's primary weapon. The numerous ways Itachi can cast it and it's considerable flexibility in battle make it both a subtle and potent weapon against Jiraiya. Making matters worse is the fact that it is possible to debate if Jiraiya can even break Itachi's Genjutsu without the partner method which he may not have available to him for the whole fight.

What truly places this battle in Itachi’s favour has to be his Mangekyou Sharingan Doujutsu. The catch-22 formed in the prerequisites to counter Amaterasu that lead Itachi’s foe to leave themselves vulnerable to Tsukuyomi; the extreme difficulty in countering Amaterasu without keeping watch for blood tears; and the incapability of any solid evidence to be found that indicates Jiraiya knows how Amaterasu is fired all indicate that it is highly unlikely Jiraiya will counter these jutsu. To compound this, Susanoo can provide an extra distraction that could leave Jiraiya open to a crafty Amaterasu from Itachi. Furthermore, without Sage Mode it is extremely questionable that Jiraiya could even react to the blistering speed of its attacks.

On the other hand Jiraiya’s techniques are largely ineffective against Itachi. His basic projectile jutsu are likely to be evaded and thanks to the terrain, blocked by Suijinheki if Itachi feels it necessary. His larger, more powerful jutsu such as Yatai Kuzushi and Yomi Numa are not fast enough to catch Itachi before he can summon Susanoo, can be countered by Yata’s Mirror or are simply not useable on this battlefield. Jiraiya’s giant summons are vulnerable to Itachi’s Sharingan and as has been shown are not only unlikely to land blows against Itachi but are not particularly difficult for someone of his agility and speed to climb atop. Sage Mode certainly provides Jiraiya with a boost, but even then the new jutsu he has available to him can be countered swiftly and efficiently by Itachi. Should he manage to come close to seriously injuring Itachi the speed at which Susanoo is summoned rules out the possibility of Itachi being injured. It also means that Jiraiya has to contend with Susanoo’s more than formidable offensive capabilities.

In short, we argue that Itachi is the likely victor in a clash of these titans as his jutsu are more efficient and difficult for his opponent to counter, and by quite a wide margin, than vice versa. For Jiraiya to be victorious we feel that a series of unlikely events would have to occur, whereas the numerous possible avenues for victory open to Itachi are relatively easily met and often link together to render them difficult, possibly in the extreme, for Jiraiya to counter.

I hope that this debate has been entertaining and edifying for all involved, debaters, judges, organisers and spectators. I'd like to thank Team Jiraiya for their contributions to this debate and my team in particular. Their help was essential in ensuring this post was of the high quality I hope everyone will find it.

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:31 AM   #8
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Default Adjudicator #1

Adjudicator #1: Results:
Team Jiraiya

First Speaker - Marco

Spoiler:
I liked your introduction. It was friendly, open and had a great deal of rhetoric. I did feel that a lot of it was superfluous, though, particularly your mentions of the databook stats and Naruto/Sasuke parallels. I do acknowledge that these were not intended to form part of your argument, though, so there will be no penalty to your 'strength of argument' score.

Your speech was delivered with great humility and respectfully acknowledged both sides of the debate. These are only good traits to have in a debate, at least in my books.

Your arguments were relatively strong. You raised many points that I'd never even considered, and presented them in a clear, concise manner, and in an order that made sense. You addressed each of Itachi's major facets in the same way. The presentation of your speech may very well have been the most impressive of all six speakers.

What let many of your arguments - and subsequently your speech as a whole - down was your lack of links and poor use of evidence. Evidence forms a large part of our marking criteria, and I would have expected you to have been more mindful of it when writing your speech. Whilst I realise that a speech can still contain evidence without physical links to source material (ie. you could have instead referred to page numbers and/or quotes), even those less conventional forms of evidence weren't common in your speech. Your speech could have certainly done with some evidence in several areas; for example, your claim that Itachi can only use Amaterasu within a five metre range. This is one of many examples of something written in your speech that I wouldn't have had trouble accepting as a good argument if you'd have provided sufficient - or even any, in this case - evidence to prove it.

Another let down was your lack of sufficient reasoning in some parts. Most of your arguments were well written and backed up with reasoning (despite my criticism in regards to evidence above), but some points I felt could really have done with some more 'fleshing out'; particularly points that I feel might have obviously 'raised a few eyebrows'. I want to know why you'd argue that Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari can be used in an outdoor setting. I want to know more about your theory of Ma and Pa granting Jiraiya genjutsu immunity. The list goes on.

Similarly, I felt a couple of your arguments could have done with a bit more expansion. These were arguments that had evidence (or perhaps did not need any), and had sufficient reasoning, but I felt simply weren't capitalised upon. For example, you mentioned Jiraiya's boss summons only very briefly in your speech, despite arguing that they were his "greatest weapons". Although you did go on to mention a few of Gamabunta's jutsu and whatnot, a great deal of that good ol' rhetoric we saw in your introduction would really have been handy here.

Your use of language was, of course, of a very high standard. Despite this, there were some things I could not help but nitpick on; abbreviations such as CQC and LOS are ones that I, personally, would have avoided in a formal debate, and some of your romaji were spelt incorrectly. Your language was, in some parts, rather informal; it is great for setting that inviting, friendly tone - which is sometimes key in persuading readers - but you were really walking a thin line at times. Fortunately for you, I don't feel the line was ever crossed, but you may wish to keep this in mind for future debates.

So all in all, a very good effort. A strong opening speech, but it left me with a lot of unanswered questions.


Second Speaker - Cyphon

Spoiler:
You've attacked the Nikushimi's speech quite effectively in some areas. For example, pointing out that some of Nikushimi's points revolved around "goldfishing" (ie. Itachi does this, this and this, assuming Jiraiya just stands there are takes it) was a good attempt to pull the rug out from underneath his arguments. Not saying that I necessarily agree with any of his or your statements, but I just wanted to note that the debating technique used was quite effective.

I also applaud you for responding to the relatively scripted points of Nikushimi's speech without scripting the battle in turn. It is very easy to fall into the trap of simply playing hypotheticals out against your opponent in a 'Pokemon battle'-style; instead, your responses were consistent with Marco's in that they afforded Jiraiya a certain degree of flexibility and freedom to act and react in-character.

Whilst I said it was fine for you to respond to an argument of the opposing team's in the form of a reaffirmation of your own team's arguments (provided they were relevant to the point quoted), what I did not tell you was that doing so would probably be weaker than a direct rebuttal. For example, it is fine and dandy to say: "Well, sure, the water source here gives Itachi these advantages, but look at the advantages it gives Jiraiya", but in my opinion it would have made for a much stronger rebuttal speech to respond along the lines of: "Actually, the water source doesn't give Itachi as much of an advantage as the First Speaker of Team Itachi would argue, because <this>, <this> and <this>; oh and look at the advantages it gives Jiraiya too".

Having said all that, although your first point (regarding the location of the battle) was not a direct rebuttal of Nikushimi's arguments, you did impress me with the depth of your explanation of Jiraiya's advantages in water. I did appreciate your attempts to tie your points together at the end of each response to emphasise how it was a response to the quoted segment of Nikushimi's speech. Your explanation of why Jiraiya could break out of genjutsu was also very in-depth, which I can only appreciate.

Like Marco's speech, there was a noticeable lack of evidence in your speech. Despite this, you did provide some evidence, and in some ways a lack of evidence impacts you less than it would Marco due to the self-explanatory/logical/responsive nature of a lot of your points. I would like to have seen more evidence nonetheless.

Your use of language was okay, although there were a few spelling errors here and there, improper names of jutsu, and things like '2nd' instead of 'second' and '5' instead of 'five'. Your tone for the most part was appropriate for a rebuttal speech, although your use of the phrase "this is an absurd comparison to make" struck me as odd. It is not rude and you haven't broken any rules, but it did strike me as a little aggressive, especially in context of the point you were responding to. Something along the lines of "this argument is flawed, because..." would have been more appropriate, in my opinion. Oddly enough, your language and tone for the rest of that particular response was perfect.

Your presentation was rudimentary; your speech could probably have been laid out better with the use of indent tags or actual dot points rather than asterisks.

A very good rebuttal speech; you definitely got the job done.


Third Speaker - Turrin

Spoiler:
I was impressed by the depth of your responses. You took each and every point raised by Strategos, dissected and examined it, and responded in a way that, whilst long, did not 'waffle' and was surprisingly easy to read. The level of analysis in your responses was also incredibly insightful.

Having said that, I do believe you spent a little too much time and effort responding to segments of the debate that had very little relevance to the actual topic (ie. the hypothetical battle at hand); namely, Itachi and Kisame's conversation and Sasuke/Naruto parallels. Strategos dealt with those in a short paragraph each, and even then he dismissed those points as barely relevant and ambiguous. Despite this, you proceeded to spend a good chunk of your word limit refuting his arguments. I do appreciate you attempts to reinforce your teammates' arguments, however.

Speaking of the word limit, as you now know, you were well over it. Whilst I can appreciate the depth in your responses, you used almost five times the number of words to respond to Strategos' speech. A good debater should be both in-depth in his or her responses and should be able to do so in a concise manner. You've got the former down pat, now you just have to focus on learning - or putting to use, if you've already learnt it - the latter.

Your use of evidence here is perfect. You've not only used plenty of quotes from the manga, databook and links to manga scans, but you also know how and when the focus attention upon an important piece of evidence (ie. Gamabunta's leap).

Your paragraphs are the perfect length, and your responses were laid out well. I am not too fond of the use of colour in any sort of post, let alone a formal debate, although I don't believe your use of it here was too over the top. After all, you seemed to follow a set colour code to help readers recognise the different types of evidence your were invoking in your speech. In a nutshell: not something I fully support, but at least it wasn't without reason.

As I said in Marco's critique, I'm not too fond of the use of abbreviations in a formal debate speech (DB3, KB, LOS, etc.), unless you take the time to clarify them before using them. It's nitpicking, really, but the high level of debating here requires harsher marking. There were also a few grammatical errors here and there, as with some inconsistent use of () and []. Nothing too huge.

I loved your concluding segment and cannot fault it. Excellent closing speech; perhaps one of the best posts I have read in a while.


Overall score

Spoiler:
Strength of argument - 36/40
Use of evidence and examples - 15/30
Relevance - 8/10
Presentation - 9/10
Language - 3/5
Attitude - 5/5

TOTAL: 76/100



Team Itachi

First Speaker - Nikushimi

Spoiler:
I loved the presentation of your speech. It was not only attention-grabbing, but you managed to cover a great many points in a concise and easy-to-read format. Your presentation easily rivals the likes of Marco's in this debate.

Your use of evidence here was incredible. For example, if you'd written your 'Engagement' section without any links, it would have been an incredibly poor beginning to your speech. Your clever use of evidence (particularly when exploring the in-character inclinations of Jiraiya and Itachi), however, turned that section into something of a highlight of your speech. The evidence you used to critique Jiraiya's detection barrier was also very impressive. Your links weren't superfluous, and most of them were very informative indeed. The only minor criticism I might have of your use of evidence is your link to Naruto Wiki; although I doubt this will result in considerable penalty, given how well you've used evidence everywhere else.

Your arguments are also very strong, and your use of evidence has only further enforced them. I do, however, have a few issues with your speech.

I would like to have seen a little more expansion upon a couple of your points. For example, although you did provide evidence to support your claim that both combatants would, in-character, approach one another from the very beginning of the battle, I didn't feel it was sufficient enough to make such a big claim. That said, you did account for an alternative scenario later on in the speech.

On a similar note, your presentation of the hypothetical battle was too scripted for my liking, but not enough to substantially detriment your argument/credibility. Regardless, if you're going to try and script the actions of both combatants, you should either explore as many alternative scenario as possible, or leave your hypothetical as free and unrestricted as possible (obviously not to the point of being vague). You've done neither here (well, you've attempted the former, but not with half as much depth as you should have), and that is indicative to me of an aggressive, 'attack' form of debating. Effective, but not without its flaws.

You've also relied a little too heavily upon databook statistic comparisons for my liking; as I am sure you are well-aware, databook statistics are really no solid - or necessarily relevant, for that matter - grounding for cross-character comparisons (although they are, undeniably, a start). This should have at least been acknowledged in your speech at some point.

Your language was more or less perfect, aside from the lines: "...embrace the sweet release of death" and "this little bugger". Not something I would have expected to find in a formal debate. Nothing huge though.

Overall, an extremely impressive opening speech. Well done!


Second Speaker - Strategos

Spoiler:
There really isn't much I can say here. Your arguments were concise, easy to read and understand, and you used evidence flawlessly. You presented your arguments in a clear layout, and your use of language was superb, yet not excessive.

Remarkably, despite the short length of your speech, I did not feel like I was left in the dark about anything, and I do feel that you provided sufficient reasoning behind your rebuttals. There were only a couple of minor points I felt could have been 'fleshed out' a little more, though (eg. your response to Yatai Kuzushi no Jutsu).

I do have one criticism that will most certainly affect your team's overall score, however. Your attack on Marco's use of databook stats was strong, as you did so in a very convincing manner, with evidence, examples and all. However, given that your opening speech contained a lot of databook stat comparisons - even moreso than Marco, who did not even use them in the bulk of his arguments - this creates some inconsistencies within your team's arguments. You are more or less debunking the foundation of some of Nikushimi's arguments, and whilst I acknowledge that none of his arguments hinge solely upon the comparison or reference of databook stats, it still only serves to harm your team's overall credibility.

I believe there were some minor discrepancies in the Discussion Thread regarding your adverse reaction to some criticism you'd found offensive.

Apart from that, your speech was almost perfect. Brilliant work!


Third Speaker - Vergil642

Spoiler:
I was thoroughly impressed by your speech. Your arguments are solid, you used sufficient evidence where necessary, you presented it in a clear and concise manner, and it was easy to read.

I have to applaud both you and your team for having a very consistent approach to this debate; hard-hitting, aggressive and straightforward. You've done everything by the book, and if I may say so, you aced it. Like Turrin, your closing segment was exceptional, and I liked how you reinforced the "catch 22" regarding counters to Itachi's Mangekyou. Also some nice rhetoric words here and there.

A couple of minor grammatical errors, but nothing huge. I wish I could write more, but really, your speech was so good - almost "cookie cutter" in a way - that there was very little I could pick on.

Great work!


Overall score

Spoiler:
Strength of argument - 36/40
Use of evidence and examples - 29/30
Relevance - 9/10
Presentation - 10/10
Language - 4/5
Attitude - 4/5

TOTAL: 92/100



Closing notes

I cannot stress how delighted I am at how well this debate has gone. All speakers have far exceeded my expectations, and done superbly. That is not to say that I expected very little from them as individuals before the debate, but the quality of debating they have produced as a team has been absolutely astounding. "Thank you" does not do justice to the gratitude I feel towards all participants for the effort and time they have devoted to this debate. Well done everybody!

I believe Team Jiraiya's first two speakers' insufficient use of evidence really hurt their score here. Despite their wonderful speeches, I simply could not grade them as high as I would have liked to due to the fact that 'evidence' makes up nearly a third of their overall mark. Overall, however, Team Jiraiya did much better in terms of allowing their character a degree of flexibility to deal with hypothetical circumstances. They almost consistently explained their arguments with more detail and analysis than Team Itachi.

Team Itachi performed more consistently well throughout this debate. Their debating style seemed to be a little more aggressive and straightforward than Team Jiraiya's. Their use of evidence was nigh-perfect throughout the debate.

I must say, however, that both third speakers really brought it home for their teams.

Well done everybody!

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:33 AM   #9
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Default Adjudicator #2

Adjudicator #2: Results:
Before I begin, allow me to thank all the participants for putting on a fantastic show. This is how a debate should be, fellow members of the Naruto Battledome. I don’t ever want to see a post composed of a single sentence, nor do I want to see posts that have improper grammar. These six fine posters can be utilized as examples for you all. While posting, keep the event’s rubric in mind, and use it as a final check.

Now that that’s out of the way, allow me to move on and post my thoughts on these brilliant expositions.

Marco:
Strength of Argument: I was ecstatically pleased to see that you included a brief summary of the facts that imply that Jiraiya and Itachi are of equal strength; in general, members attempt to convey their views through the utilization of character feats alone. While focusing on the abilities of the fighters is obviously essential in an analysis, it’s always good to look at the situation from the author’s point of view, which is exactly what you did. Kishimoto set up these parallels for a reason; it is not simply a coincidence that Jiraiya and Itachi are both such powerful influences in the two major protagonists’ lives. Whether or not Jiraiya would be capable of defeating Itachi is a different matter, but this particular portion of your speech was absolutely brilliant; I feel as if too many individuals believe that Jiraiya or Itachi would decimate the other without difficulty. You did an exceptional job at giving another, more believable outlook on the hypothetical fight.

Your entire “Knowledge is a weapon” section is a little unrealistic. You made far too many assumptions that are completely unsubstantiated, in my mind. For example, I don’t ever remember a statement regarding the frequency of Jiraiya and Kakashi’s discussions, and therefore, your claim that Kakashi “often exchanged intelligence with him” is not necessarily correct. ‘Often’ is probably an over exaggeration.

I don’t quite understand how Kakashi unlocking the Mangekyō Sharingan would allow him to deduce the nature of Amaterasu; for all he knew, it could have been a mysterious Katon employed through ordinary hand seals. You could have produced an even more believable argument had you mentioned the fact that Kakashi already knew of Amaterasu; a feasible scenario, and probably the most likely, in which he could have gained knowledge of Amaterasu is through a discussion he had with Jiraiya. Obviously this argument has its flaws, but had you implemented Kakashi’s prior knowledge of Amaterasu into your speech, it would have been more convincing. Unfortunately, you did not, and I am therefore forced to go under the assumption that Jiraiya spoke to Kakashi about Amaterasu without any legitimate evidence that suggests that Kakashi even knew of Amaterasu.

Moreover, I consider this particular section of your speech to be entirely worthless in the grand scheme of things; especially your arguments regarding Jiraiya’s knowledge of Itachi’s ability to utilize Amaterasu from his eyes. Is that information really relevant? It’s not as if Jiraiya could negate Amaterasu simply by avoiding eye contact; furthermore, even if he does notice Itachi’s eyes bleeding, why would he instinctively assume that Itachi would be employing Amaterasu? Jiraiya’s known knowledge of Amaterasu would be just as effective in the actual battle as his ‘assumed’ knowledge that you are implementing throughout the initial portion of your speech.

Your main points are clearly all reasonable, and you left very little room for disagreement. I liked how you continually brought up the fact that a Kage Bunshin, while a simple technique, is an effective counter to the majority of Itachi’s techniques. Numerous individuals will often overlook such a technique, simply because it’s not one of Jiraiya’s ‘trademark’ jutsu. Combined with your description of Jiraiya’s fighting style and how he applies whatever techniques necessary, I can definitely imagine Jiraiya employing Kage Bunshin throughout the fight.

You claimed that Gamaguchi Shibari is useful in an open ground without any explanation. I’m sorry, but this particular point isn’t one that I can dismiss and claim that I can understand your reasoning without a clarification from you. I can’t think of a plausible scenario that would allow Jiraiya to utilize Gamaguchi Shibari in such a wide area.

I would have certainly liked to see more emphasis placed on Doton: Yomi Numa. When I think of ‘Jiraiya vs. Itachi’, my mind immediately thinks, ‘Yomi Numa vs. Susano’o’. As I was reading your speech, I got the impression that Doton: Yomi Numa was a small, and yet somewhat useful technique that really isn’t anything greater than one of Jiraiya’s Katons. In reality, it’s one of Jiraiya’s most useful jutsu, especially against Susano’o (debatable, obviously). I would have preferred an explanation describing the reasons as to why Yomi Numa would be capable of killing Itachi whilst in Susano’o.

I was delighted to see a thorough analysis on how Jiraiya fairs against Itachi with various distances separating the two, and I was even more pleased to see that you, in my opinion, analyzed all the arguments correctly. One thing that you did not include within your speech was a step by step breakdown of a hypothetical fight between the two individuals; I was constantly looking for such a process, and was rather disappointed to observe that you refrained from utilizing such an ingenious debating tactic. I realize that it’s a risky maneuver, but if utilized correctly (and I believe you would indeed be able to), it can prove to be a more convincing argument than a simple analysis of techniques and feats.

Overall, you did excellently; you played it safe, left very little room for discrepancy, and explicated all your points brilliantly.

Score: 38/40

Use of Evidence: Sorry, but I cannot prevent myself from asking: why did you choose not to employ any links or examples? Surely you must have realized that a significant portion of your score was dependent on the amount of concrete evidence you utilized, correct?

You made quite a few claims that, had I been a newcomer, I would have been a bit confused by. You cannot simply claim that Amaterasu is only ‘instantaneous’ when Itachi is five meters away from his adversary without any form of explanation or evidence; I’m surprised that you did not choose to delve deeper into this particular topic, considering it is one of the more heavily debated topics.

You mentioned several facts, utilized Databook statistics, and even mentioned a quote taken directly from the manga; what possessed you to not incorporate, at the very least, a few links? I cannot give you a zero as your score for this particular category, because you did provide an ample amount of evidence outside of links, but I must admit that I was extremely dissatisfied when I noticed that you did not implement any links.

Score: 20/30

Relevance: I cannot say much for this category, to be honest. Every one of your statements was on-topic, and you really didn’t stray from the overall debate.

Score: 10/10

Presentation: You split your arguments into paragraphs very nicely; I’ll occasionally get the feeling that a few individuals randomly formulate paragraphs simply because they feel as if a paragraph is becoming too lengthy. You, on the other hand, didn’t fall into this enticing trap; instead, you split your speech into paragraphs based on the topic that you were discussing; in other words, as you transitioned into a different point, you made another paragraph.

I’m not particularly a fan of big, bolded headings, but I certainly don’t believe that to be worthy of a deduction of points.

Score: 10/10

Use of Language: Your writing could have definitely been enhanced, but on the whole, it was a nice read. Try to refrain from repeating words over and over again; you consistently stuck with phrases such as “this is…”, or “I’d like…”. If you incessantly use the same phrases throughout your speech, it can sound immature and childlike.

You split apart some of your sentences in an awkward fashion. Rather than opening a sentence with “and” or “but”, simply combine the two sentences and add a comma. The sentence will flow nicer. In general, you could have implemented a lot more commas.

You had a few fragments, but there was really nothing major; as I said before, they were mostly due to an awkward split between sentences. You misused the semicolon a couple times (semicolons should not be employed to replace commas).

Japanese jutsu names never end with the letter “s”, even when pluralized. You unfortunately made this mistake several times, especially when indicating that a few Kage Bunshin would do something (you utilized ‘Kage Bunshins’, rather than ‘Kage Bunshin’).

You could have certainly used a more extensive and complicated vocabulary; try using a larger array of words and phrases, rather than the same-old, boring ones.

Score: 3/5

Attitude: You were definitely the most gracious participant within this debate, Marco. I really appreciated your sense of understanding, and you unquestionably did not come off as overly aggressive or assertive.

Score: 5/5

Overall Score: 86/100


Nikushimi:
I’m sorry Nikushimi, but I refuse to hide my disappointment. Please do not interpret such a statement as “your speech is terrible”, because it means the exact opposite. I’m frustrated by the fact that a poster of your caliber, which was made known to be throughout the course of this debate, is content with being what some members regard as a ‘troll’. You evidently have quite the influence over Itachi fans; I’m positive that if you frequently post like you have within this formal debate, several other members will follow your lead. Come now, dear Nikushimi.

Strength of Argument: I really liked the way that you formatted your speech; after each segment of your presentation, I kept thinking, “Well, it’s not even guaranteed that Jiraiya will reach this phase, and even if he does, it’s unlikely that he will be able to avoid this!” You utilized an excellent tactic: implement a hypothetical scenario within your own speech, and then make it seem as if the adversary has an exponentially lower chance to escape death as each phase passes.

The downside of employing such a method is the possibility of a misinterpretation of a character’s actions. Your scenario was somewhat flawed; the first obvious error that you made in your judgment was predicting that Jiraiya would charge forward while preparing to enter Sennin Mōdo. Why would Jiraiya willingly charge forward, even if he’s atop Gamaken, if he is unable to provide any form of aid? It would be more logical to assume that Gamaken would jump backwards, rather than forwards, if he’s attempting to stall for time. If this were to happen, your initial description would be entirely void.

You are then assuming that if Jiraiya were to generate a Kage Bunshin, it would not go on the offensive. If it incessantly employs various elemental techniques to block line of sight or distract Itachi, it’s unlikely that Itachi would be able to travel anywhere near the real Jiraiya. You really didn’t take into account Jiraiya’s repertoire; it was more like, “Itachi does this, and this, and this…” In order to effectively convince your readers whilst employing a hypothetical scenario, you have to respect each character’s intelligence. What if Jiraiya creates more than one Kage Bunshin? What if he begins the fight with a line of sight ‘blocker’, such as a Katon? What if he immediately utilizes Doton: Yomi Numa, and then chooses to sprint away with Gamaken? You have to try to take all these factors into consideration. I realize that the last option is not a very viable scenario, but it was essentially used to example purposes. To be perfectly honest, the majority of your speech can be countered by the fact that Jiraiya can create several Kage Bunshin, which can then divert Itachi’s attention.

That being said, you saved yourself much criticism by including the scenario in which Jiraiya does reach Sennin Mōdo. However, as I stated before, you forgot to implement Jiraiya’s own repertoire within this particular scenario. I liked how you continued to mention Tsukuyomi’s dominance throughout your speech; it’s very easy to mention one character’s trump card and then completely disregard the technique throughout your speech. You pursued the fact that Jiraiya really did not possess a counter to Tsukuyomi (besides Kage Bunshin, which you really didn’t bring up).

I would have probably spent a little more time explaining why Doton: Yomi Numa would be ineffective against Itachi; nevertheless, Marco didn’t properly explicate the reasons as to why it would be effective, so it worked out well in the end for you.

I was relieved to see that a ‘serious’ Nikushimi could be regarded as formal poster; I was rather nervous after I noticed that you were one of the participants, because you generally don’t wear a professional persona. Overall, you did an excellent job; try to avoid getting caught in the “Character A does this, this, and this; therefore, Character B dies” cycle when generating a step-by-step breakdown of the fight.

Score: 34/40

Use of Evidence: Excellent, excellent, excellent. That’s all I can really say for this particular category; you provided an overwhelming amount of evidence, and, please correct me if I’m wrong, you did not make a claim without implementing a link that supported your argument. While I did disagree with a few of your opinions, I really could not argue against them because you incorporated such a large number of manga panels within your speech.

Score: 30/30

Relevance: You successfully stayed on topic throughout your entire speech.

Score: 10/10

Presentation: I absolutely loved your formatting, Nikushimi. You separated each section of your speech with a large heading, which is a fine transition technique. You utilized a not-so-common method to implement a few links; rather than employing the traditional ‘place the link on the text’ strategy, you went with the ‘place the link in brackets’ tactic. Either way is perfectly acceptable, but it’s nice to see some variety.

Score: 10/10

Use of Language: This is yet another category that you excelled at, Nikushimi. You didn’t make any noticeable patterns of errors, just a few very minor gaffes. In a formal debate, please try to avoid using comical phrases such as "this little bugger"; it just sounds improper when surrounded by such a serious atmosphere. Similar to Marco, you could have utilized more complex words and phrases, but other than that, brilliant job.

Score: 4/5


Attitude: To be honest, it would be unfair to Marco if I gave you a perfect score in this category; you really didn’t do anything wrong, but you also didn’t do anything pleasantly abnormal, such as dedicating a significant portion of your speech to thank the voters.

Score: 4/5

Overall Score: 92/100


Cyphon:
Strength of Argument: Your beginning portion was fantastic, Cyphon. Very few members actually consider Jiraiya’s advantages near the water, because they believe these ‘advantages’ are nonexistent. You brought up certain points that I had formulated in my own mind, and ones that I had never even thought of. You certainly derailed Nikushimi’s own argument implying that Itachi had the clear edge on a watery battlefield.

Your analysis on Kekkai: Gama Hyoro’s effectiveness was astoundingly descriptive. I was very impressed by your logical thought process when describing Jiraiya’s potential difficulty in dragging Itachi downwards, and the speed at which the technique can be utilized at. To be perfectly honest, I had never really thought of Kekkai: Gama Hyoro as a practical jutsu, but you have successfully manipulated my opinion.

I liked how you pointed out that with every action that Itachi takes, such as focusing on Jiraiya or Gamaken, there will be a consequence. Moreover, you brought up the advantages, outside of the additional distraction, that Gamaken gives Jiraiya, such as an enormous height advantage and an added defense.

Your point regarding the disadvantages of Jiraiya not possessing a Sharingan is very intriguing. I really have never thought of it that way, and in my mind, your reasoning is quite rational. Ninja without the Sharingan never really make it a point to read the adversary’s hand seals, and therefore, not being able to when you never intended to in the first place is not necessarily disadvantageous.

Your arguments concerning the difference between Jiraiya and Naruto’s chakra control was yet another brilliant section. However, your ‘mathematical’ outlook on the situation is shaky. We, as the readers, do not necessarily know that as Naruto generates more than one Kage Bunshin, each one grants him double the capabilities in regards to performing Rasengan; it could be that Naruto simply needs a minuscule amount of extra aid, and the Kage Bunshin is there to provide that. It’s not as if we know that Naruto and his Kage Bunshin are just barely capable of utilizing a Rasengan (I am kind of looking at this in a percent format).

Regardless, it’s quite irrelevant, because your latter argument is what was truly convincing. People often forget that for one to even attain Sennin Mōdo, he/she needs near flawless chakra control; the thorough manner in which you explicated this fact was remarkable, to say the least. You brought up another point that I was unaware of: that Itachi was only attempting to force Naruto into a deep slumber. The fact that Naruto withstood the effects, even for only a short period of time, proves that his method was partially successful.

Now here is where your argument becomes a little flimsy. You claim that Jiraiya has the abilities to move as quickly as A, without any legitimate, concrete evidence. To begin, you are assuming that the amount of chakra one possesses is the sole factor when determining how fast one can Shunshin; I’m not quite sure how you came to this conclusion, because if this were correct, individuals such as Naruto or Garra would be moving at unbelievably swift rates.

I’m really not buying your arguments supporting your claim that Jiraiya and Naruto have comparable amounts of chakra when Naruto is utilizing the Kyūbi; Fukasaku never specified that Naruto would be utilizing the Kyūbi’s chakra when undergoing the rigorous training. Personally, I believe it is likely that he was speaking of Naruto’s own chakra. I really cannot imagine the Kyūbi willfully giving Naruto chakra when undergoing a training that will allow Naruto to utilize another source of energy; this was also portrayed by the fact that the Kyūbi would not allow Fukasaku to fuse with Naruto.

I understand that you were attempting to refute Nikushimi’s argument, but please understand that formulating a rather far-fetched claim is not necessary; in fact, refuting Nikushimi’s argument wasn’t necessary at all. You were given the job of ‘second speaker’, which forced you to generate arguments that correlated with what the opposition had already stated. That does not mean that you must disagree with every single point made by the opponent. If I were you, I would have probably just not responded to that particular section of Nikushimi’s speech.

That being said, in general, your speech was one of the better ones. Had you left out the section that I critiqued above, I would have probably categorized your speech as the best in terms of arguments; regardless, it was an overall impressive showing, and you devised several new points that I had never seen.

Score: 35/40

Use of Evidence: I’m a little surprised, Cyphon. In fact, I was even more surprised when I read your exposition than I was when I read Marco’s. I gave a slight leeway (not in the scoring) to Marco because he was the first speaker, and apparently he had a few internet predicaments. Subsequent to the posting of his speech, he received quite a lot of criticism about the lack of links and evidence employed. I’m confused as to why you followed his lead, rather than following what others, and the nature of the scoring, advise.

You implemented a few links, but compared to your adversary, it was essentially nothing. There’s really not much to say here, besides expressing my disappointment; sorry.

Score: 22/30

Relevance: Everything you stated was completely on task.

Score: 10/10

Presentation: One component that is not only lacking within your speech, but in nearly all your posts, is proper formatting. You do the exact opposite of what most members do: rather than keeping your paragraphs too long, you split your paragraphs up too frequently. Try to keep each paragraph three to four sentences long, unless of course, it’s absolutely necessary to formulate another paragraph due to a change in topic. It’s not very pleasing to the eyes to see a post that is seemingly gargantuan due to the large amounts of gaps.

Try to utilize the ‘bold’ and ‘italicize’ functions more often; not only does it make the post more appealing, but it also helps the reader understand what is essential. Nevertheless, I would rather you do what you are doing now than have you go overboard with both of these functions. That can transform an already unappealing post into an atrocity.

This could simply be personal preference, but I find bullet points to be more attractive than asterisks. I will not hold this against you, though, because as I stated before, it’s probably just personal inclination.

Score: 7/10

Use of Language: I briefly scanned your post, and my initial reaction was that of fear; because of your mediocre formatting, my mind automatically thought, “his writing skills probably won’t be good either.” Well, I can truthfully say that I was mistaken. Your post was definitely one of the easier ones to read; it had a nice flow to it, even though you didn’t utilize several complex words or phrases.

In a formal debate, though, you should try to avoid abbreviating numbers; instead of stating “2nd” and “5”, say “second” and “five”; it gives off a more professional aura. You made a few grammar and spelling mistakes, but there were no patterns of error.

Score: 4/5

Attitude: I really wasn’t very impressed by your attitude, Cyphon. You were kind enough to incorporate a ‘thank you’ to the inventor and voters of this event, but you really didn’t show anything after that. Conversely, some of your comments were unnecessarily aggressive. I despise saying this, but I feel as if I need to get this off of my chest: had this category included comments that were made in other threads not directly related (although somewhat correlated) to this event, I would have probably given you a zero. Your skirmishes with Strategos are completely unnecessary, Cyphon. There’s really no need to attack a poster with personal insults.

Luckily for you, you didn’t do anything that warranted a complete failure; the ‘facepalm’ smiley was uncalled for, and your recent response to Baraxio’s vote showed signs of aggression (that being said, Baraxio’s post was rather derogatory as well).

Score: 3/5

Overall Score: 81/100


Strategos:
Strength of Argument: I was not a fan of your analysis regarding the unreliability of Itachi’s statement; if I remember correctly, there was a large debate (sparked by Munboy Dracule O’ Brian), but in the end, it was generally agreed that Itachi was speaking of Jiraiya. Whether or not the translator you quoted conceded is a mystery to me, but regardless, the few other translators that participated in the discussion came to the consensus that the conversation was about Jiraiya. However, you did implement some doubt in my mind, which I believe was the entire purpose of this particular argument.

You did a nice job at debasing Marco’s initial points about the parallels between Itachi and Jiraiya. I would have liked to see a more in-depth description regarding your stance on the Databook statistics, though. I’m really not sure what your entire argument actually was. Were you implying that maximum scores meant relatively more than average scores (obviously they do, but I’m wondering whether they mean more than usual)? Moreover, you are seemingly against comparing stat totals, and yet you are in favor of comparing individual stats? How does that work? I’m sure you have a reasonable explanation in mind, but unfortunately you did not incorporate it into your speech.

Your claim that Jiraiya had recovered his chakra control was rather weak; 'adequately' is relative to the individual being discussed. I wouldn’t be surprised if a ninja at Jiraiya’s level would be capable of utilizing the tree-walking method while half-asleep. I’m quite confident that the majority of Jiraiya’s techniques take more chakra control than simply focusing energy at one’s feet.

You generated a plausible scenario when you stated that Itachi could place Fukasaku and Shima under a genjutsu; however, I would have definitely liked to see some sort of backup plan, just in case someone did not concur with that notion. It’s really a minor predicament though, and I doubt I’ll deduct any points due to such a minuscule mistake (if it can even be considered that).

I think Marco was attempting to state that Jiraiya would extend his hair, which would be struck by Amaterasu, and then utilize it as an offensive utility. It may be able to burn through the hair at a swifter rate than Jiraiya can extend it at, but it’s certainly a reasonable option. Marco didn’t really clarify on this concept, though; in fact, he made no mention of Jiraiya extending his hair to counter the flames burning characteristic, and therefore, again, no points will be deducted because you countered his brief statement with a sufficient argument.

You probably should have clarified more on the matter of Amaterasu’s long range mechanics; numerous individuals, including me, interpret the panel you posted as the flames actually traveling towards the Hachibi; that being said, I’m not even sure whether you were attempting to prove that the flames do not travel. You made no mention of your actual stance, and you simply left us with a controversial manga page.

Your closing excerpt was concise, and yet very thorough. You analyzed each individual’s fighting style with a short paragraph, and left the reader thinking that Itachi had the more proficient fighting style.

I’ll be honest, Strategos: I read your speech by far the most, because I was struggling to find anything blatantly wrong with it. It was surprisingly descriptive, even though it was very brief, and you really didn’t make any mistakes. I would advise you to explicate your points with a little more thoroughness, but other than that, it was an extraordinary rebuttal.

Score: 39/40

Use of Evidence: I was thrilled to find out that yet another member of ‘Team Itachi’ had employed links throughout his exposition; and yet, I was certainly not expecting the sheer amount of links that you implemented, Strategos. You utilized your evidence perfectly; in fact, you used it so perfectly that often times, you needn’t say anything because the links spoke for themselves. Your speech was quite obviously the most proficient in this category compared to your adversaries’ and teammates speeches.

Score: 30/30

Relevance: Every concept that you generated was completely on topic.

Score: 10/10

Presentation: You employed a similar style of formatting as Nikushimi; you captioned each section with fairly large headings, wrote a brief description, and then moved on to the next point. Unlike Suu, I’m actually fond of a little color in a post (not too much, obviously), and therefore, your speech was even more appealing than Nikushimi’s in my opinion.

Score: 10/10

Use of Language: You flawlessly wrote in a professional and mature manner; there was one small spelling mistake that you made, but besides that, I couldn’t find anything else to critique. I was pleased to see that you did not go overboard with the utilization of complex words, considering numerous members regard ‘good writing’ as ‘using as many big words as possible’. You blended the lovely complicated words and the several other components of ‘good writing’ brilliantly.

Score: 5/5

Attitude: You definitely didn’t display fantastic sportsmanship throughout this event, Strategos. One of your rebuttals targeted towards a certain member outside of the debate was quite aggressive; I understand that you believed his words to be insulting, but that does not mean you must continue the cycle of abhorrence. I didn’t see you display any signs of gratitude to the potential public voters and the inventor(s) of this debate. This was most certainly your weakest category, and it’s a characteristic that I hope you will improve on in the future.

I said it to Cyphon, and I will say it to you: your frequent skirmishes with Cyphon that entail each of you attempting to subtly insult the other are completely unnecessary. Don’t get me wrong, Strategos; you are an excellent poster, and one that drastically improves the posting quality of this section. However, please try to be a little more friendly to your ‘rivals’, and refrain from getting caught up in petty personal arguments.

Score: 2/5

Overall Score: 96/100


Turrin:
Strength of Argument: This was easily one of the most comprehensive posts that I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading. Not only did you provide an exceeding amount of information, but you managed to somehow bring up new concepts with every section; to be honest, after I saw the length of your speech, I believed it was either going to be filled with ‘fluff’ or several repeated arguments. You proved me wrong, Turrin.

You (kind of) demolished Strategos’ entire argument regarding the subject of Itachi’s conversation, but unfortunately, you really didn’t emphasize why exactly you triumphed. Strategos’ entire argument was based off the fact that one translator, ShounenSuki, disagreed with the majority, and therefore, there must be reasonable doubt. You, however, quoted yet another post from ShounenSuki that essentially contradicts his original statement (although this ‘original’ statement was generated after the statement in question). Whether you realized that you two were utilizing the same translator to support each of your arguments is not clear to me, because you really didn’t mention it. If I were you, I probably would have made it clear that ShounenSuki also declared (which contradicts Strategos’ reference) that the conversation was about Jiraiya. Nevertheless, I’m relatively confident that any reasonable poster would be able to recognize the similarity in the translator(s), and therefore, it’s really just a minor inconvenience. I would have to see ShounenSuki’s entire thought process when making my decision, because he seems to have contradicted himself, but I think you’ve got it right, Turrin.

You make a fair point when you discuss the possibility of Itachi’s claim being a lie; however, I think you may have forgotten to take one thing into consideration. Itachi was obviously aware that he was surrounded by reasonably intelligent individuals; it’s certainly not irrational to say that he wouldn’t want to make any claims that were seemingly unsubstantiated or suspicious. If Itachi outright said that Jiraiya would be able to decimate both him and Kisame, wouldn’t Kisame categorize that as ‘suspicious’? Kisame already knew that Itachi was in the same general area of power as Jiraiya because he stated, “Even if you might be able to take him on…” He evidently knew that Itachi stood a chance, and I’m confident that Itachi knew that Kisame had knowledge of this information. I’m also confident that Kisame would become doubtful had Itachi claimed that both he and Kisame did not stand a chance at defeating an individual who Itachi alone may be able to defeat.

I agree with your comparison of the two fighters’ stat totals, although I categorize this section and everything before it as virtually irrelevant. You spent far too much time discussing the parallels of Jiraiya and Itachi, and while Strategos may have mentioned the points first, he was able to control the amount of information he included into his speech. You should have simply written a single paragraph about each point, and then utilized the extra availability of characters to analyze the more important points even further.

Everything that you brought up subsequent to the aforementioned section is fair game; I concur with the majority of your arguments, particularly the one responding to Strategos’ questioning of Jiraiya’s utilization of several Kage Bunshin. People often seem to take the ‘in-character’ description too literally; if a character rarely employs a certain jutsu, they think that even if he/she is placed in a scenario in which the jutsu would be effective, he/she would still refrain from utilizing it. This thought process is nonsensical in my mind, especially when speaking of Jiraiya, who manages to deal out an answer to nearly every ninja he encounters. It’s only logical to assume that when pitted against an individual whose weakness is fighting several individuals, Jiraiya will utilize the only technique that allows him to form replicas of himself.

Overall, your post was the best in terms of the strength of the actual arguments; everything you claimed was supported and substantiated by a thorough analysis and several pieces of concrete evidence. You did not generate any ambiguous statements, and I was not confused in the slightest about any of your stances. You did an excellent job, Turrin.

Score: 40/40

Use of Evidence: Thank you, Turrin, for being the first individual on ‘Team Jiraiya’ to utilize links from the manga to support your conclusions. I was getting a little afraid that ‘Team Jiraiya’ was plotting some elaborate rebellion against the rubric of this event. You used each piece of evidence perfectly; I never felt as if they were randomly placed throughout your exposition. One concept that you introduced that I particularly enjoyed was your idea of color coding the various forms of evidence. I’ve actually never seen this, and to be honest, in future long descriptive analyses, I may very well use this tactic.

Score: 29/30

Relevance: I felt as if you trailed off onto a tangent during the initial parts of your speech; there was really no need to be so thorough when discussing the parallels between Jiraiya and Itachi. You may have helped the readers understand your stance a little more, but overall, you probably lost more points because you went overboard with the amount of characters used.

As I stated before, you could have essentially broken down the argument generated by Strategos concerning the subject of Itachi’s conversation; why you chose to ignore the fact that the translator Strategos utilized as ‘proof’ was actually in favor of your own stance is a mystery to me. You delved into the realm of irrelevance when you went further and explicated the reasons why it would be illogical for Itachi to be speaking of Naruto. Other than that, I have no complaints.

Score: 9/10

Presentation: You executed your speech flawlessly in terms of formatting; the paragraphs were all the correct size and they were logically split apart based on a change in subject matter. You color coded each type of evidence that you provided in a fashionable manner; in general, your post had just the right amount of color added into it: it wasn’t too ostentatious, but it also was not too bland.
You unfortunately went over the character limit of thirty-thousand, which will obviously harm your score for this particular category. Had you omitted the unnecessary explanations in the beginning, you probably would have fit the criteria. Another thing that bothered me was your integration of Databook quotes; rather than saying, “DB3, ‘…’”, I would have liked to see, “Databook III: ‘…’” It’s really just a trivial quandary, but when told to critique such brilliant speeches, I’m forced to criticize any error that I see, no matter the size.

Score: 9/10

Use of Language: I’m sorry, but your post was filled with far too many grammatical mistakes; I would have usually given you some slack simply because of the sheer size of your post, but you made several errors. You consistently capitalized words at random times in the middle of sentences. Terms like “toads”, “though”, “subject”, “guardian”, “technique”, “blood”, “which”, and “parallel” do not need to be capitalized unless they are utilized at the start of a sentence. These are just a few examples of capitalization errors that I noticed simply by reading the first quarter of your speech.

You incorporated commas at unusual moments in sentences; a sentence such as “Also Kisame, has no reason to lie about the difference between” has a comma added in an incorrect location (this is just one example out of several others). The comma should probably be after “also”, rather than after “Kisame”. Generally, when you have transitional phrases, it’s best to place a comma after them. “In fact” should have a comma after it; “also” should have a comma after it.

There were several fragments within your speech.

“To Which Itachi agrees that it will be a difficult task.”

Sorry, but I will not accept this in a formal debate. You incorrectly capitalized ‘which’, and rather than forming a completely separate sentence, you probably should have simply placed a comma between the aforementioned ‘sentence’ (although it’s not really a complete sentence) and the sentence before it. Try to avoid beginning sentences with, “so”, or “and”, or “but”; it gives off an informal atmosphere, which goes against the entire purpose of this debate event.

I’m going to give you a little leeway because your speech was considerably longer than anyone else’s, but a deduction of points will still definitely occur. I’m actually quite surprised that your teammates did not catch such blatant errors (that is, if your team was communicating). Please do not be offended by my criticism, though; such errors certainly do not prevent the reader from comprehending your passage properly.

Score: 2/5

Attitude: You really didn’t get an opportunity to interact with any voters, so there isn’t much I can say for this category. You thanked the voters and inventor(s) of this event in a polite manner, which is something that I can only support.

Score: 4/5

Overall Score: 93/100


Vergil642:
Strength of Argument: You make an excellent point when you claim that Itachi would not fall victim to such an obvious trap (Gama Mise), especially when his surroundings allow Itachi to distinguish between natural nature and a random building. However, I’m a little confused by your second claim. Jiraiya will not be dragging Itachi into the toad’s mouth; the entire purpose of the jutsu lies in its ability to conceal itself. If the jutsu were to work successfully, Itachi would travel into the toad willingly due to the toad’s seemingly foolish nature.

I would have liked to see more derailment of Jiraiya’s water based techniques, rather than focusing on Itachi’s own Suiton: Suijinheki. You described its strengths perfectly, but I felt as if you just ended it abruptly. You didn’t really explain how the jutsu would fair against Jiraiya had the fight taken to the water.

Your style section was rather weak, Vergil642. You cannot compare Jiraiya’s performances against his previous opponents and his hypothetical encounter with Itachi, who possesses a completely different fighting style than anyone else in the manga. Moreover, this section subtly contradicts Nikushimi’s own theoretical scenario; your partner claims that Jiraiya will immediately attempt to enter Sennin Mōdo. Why would Jiraiya eagerly charge into close quarters when he’s unable to attack or defend himself?

I don’t particularly agree with your assessment of Itachi’s speed (that he is far faster than Jiraiya), but I cannot argue with your latter claims; Deva Realm has proven to be capable of utilizing the gargantuan summons as mere stepping stones, and Itachi, who is most likely of equal speed, should be able to do the same.

I think you missed the point that Cyphon was trying to make: not possessing the Sharingan is not necessarily a disadvantage for Jiraiya when attempting to read Itachi’s seals, because even if he did have the Sharingan, he still wouldn’t be able to fully distinguish the hand seals. Whether or not he can react to the techniques is a point that you brought up, and is one that I don’t really agree with (I won’t deduct points for our disagreement), but the section that you quoted from Cyphon’s speech was not speaking of Jiraiya’s ability to react.

I wholeheartedly agree with your brief analysis involving the weakness of Cyphon’s claim that Naruto has half the chakra-control that Jiraiya has. In fact, I essentially stated the exact same thing in my critique of Cyphon’s speech. I’m very glad that you picked up on the error in mathematical proportions.

There’s not much else that I can criticize in your speech, Vergil642. You essentially reiterated what your previous partners stated, but I felt as if your points were a little more secure. If I cannot blatantly argue against a point without bringing up my own biased opinion, then I will refrain from critiquing it in a negative manner. That is exactly how I feel right now: you played it safe, and there are very few arguments in your speech that I can legitimately disagree with and then truthfully say that I am confident in my own opinion. I would have liked to see a bit more creativity, but I guess I cannot blame you: Itachi possesses a few extremely lethal techniques, but other than that, he doesn’t really have any potential combination jutsu, and all his techniques are rather straight forward. You managed to close it out admirably for your team.

Score: 38/40

Use of Evidence: Compared to your teammates, your speech was seriously lacking in the ‘links’ department. You only posted a few manga panels, and you didn’t utilize the Databook very often. You posted scans only when absolutely necessary, which isn’t always a good thing, especially in this debate event. Sorry, but I cannot hide my disappointment, Vergil642.

Score: 26/30

Relevance: You were perhaps the most pinpoint participant; you did not stray from the original points, and you did not focus on the petty parallels between the two individuals at all. Your post was straightforward and concise.

Score: 10/10

Presentation: There wasn’t anything that stood out to me, to be honest. You made clear headings, but everything else was bland. It felt as if I was reading an ordinary rebuttal from any old thread in the Battledome. Rather than utilizing numbers to categorize examples, I would recommend using bullet points; they are more appealing to the eyes, in my mind. Try to utilize the ‘bold’ and ‘italics’ functions more, whether it be to indicate stress or importance. Your entire post just seemed plain. Sorry, but I wasn’t very impressed by your presentation and formatting.

Score: 8/10

Use of Language: You made a few grammatical mistakes, but there were no noticeable patterns of error. Your tone throughout your speech was absolutely perfect; I felt like I was reading a legitimate news article, rather than having a conversation with my friend. That being said, it would have been nice to see a little more aesthetically pleasing sentences and terms; you organized each sentence in a simple format, which I was not thrilled about. I have no important complaints in this category, though.

Score: 4/5

Attitude: Like Turrin, you didn’t have the chance to express yourself, nor did you have the opportunity to interact with the voters. You left a small excerpt thanking the participants of the event, which is quite obviously a good quality. Nevertheless, you didn’t really demonstrate the graciousness of Marco, and therefore, it would be unfair for me to grant you a perfect score.

Score: 4/5

Overall Score: 90/100


It’s a true shame that a large portion of ‘Team Jiraiya’s’ defeat was due to their lack of evidence; truth be told, I was desperately looking for any form of substantiation (in the form of links/quotes) that ‘Team Jiraiya’ provided, in order to utilize it to raise their abysmal score in that category. I felt as if ‘Team Jiraiya’ was more creative than ‘Team Itachi’, but ‘Team Itachi’ was certainly far more organized and straightforward. I’m really not sure what Marco, Cyphon, and Turrin were actually doing when they were sending their speeches to each other, because ‘Team Jiraiya’ just made several silly mistakes that cost them the match. I apologize if I sound rude, but I’m quite perplexed as to what you fine posters were ‘communicating’.

Team Jiraiya: (86+81+93)/3=86.7
Team Itachi: (92+96+90)/3=92.7


Vote: Team Itachi


Last edited by Akitō; 02-22-2011 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:36 AM   #10
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Default Adjudicator #3

Adjudicator #3: Results:
Marco - Jiraiya, Opening

Strength of argument:
  • Excellent, possibly my favourite speech of them all. You note that essentially all of the most probable jutsu trade-offs are likely to end in Jiraiya's favour: moves like doton: yomi numa and senpō: goemon are easily cast but when skillfully used, force Itachi to his most expensive technique - Susano'o. A similar occurrence is found when switching who plays offense and who plays defense: a shot of Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi is ultimately more draining than the kage bunshin feints and summons that can be used to draw them.

    The kage bunshin angle was especially important to bring up. Even with a bit of knowledge on Amaterasu, I have never seen hari jizō or fūka hōin as effective counters: they would need unfathomable timing to pull off and they leave Jiraiya open to a follow-up attack while being applied. Using bunshin and summons to make Itachi weary of wasting his most taxing moves effectively nullifies your opponent's advantage without directly countering it - it was very important that this was brought up in the first post.

    The last point I'll make about this speech was the lack of creating a specific scenario. You list the strengths and abilities of each character involved in the match-up and close off with a small discussion of Jiraiya's advantages at each distance. By choosing not to walk us through the battle, you leave just the right amount of space for your teammates to shade in once the counter-arguments begin rolling. Flexibility is what I'm getting at, and this opening has it in spades.
Use of evidence and examples:
  • This right here is potentially the downfall of team Jiraiya. There is not a single link or respectable external citation to be found in this speech. As a frequent reader of the data book, I can tell that a large amount of the information found in your post is sourced - yet these sources never rise to the surface. Normally, it wouldn't be a problem but in an event where 30% of the critical score is based on hard evidence, the last thing you want to do is assume your readers are smart enough to understand your side of the story. What happened?
Relevance:
  • The opening bit of the speech where you attempt to prove what I believe everybody has already concluded, that Itachi and Jiraiya are at approximately the same level, is helpful but borderline unnecessary. Still, it serves as a nice way to ease the reader into the lengthy subject being discussed. No problems anywhere else.
Presentation:
  • This opening is the second longest write-up in the event but it is impossible to fault the length when the writing itself is so easy on the eyes. The length never drags: partly because of your near-conversational tone, and partly because you use the text to cover a breadth of topics rather than excessively scrutinizing the details of a few. Some may see the sometimes-almost-informal tone as a negative, but I find it to be more honest and convincing than a speech that is too readily uptight.
Language:
  • Despite looks, your speech is never overly wordy and gets to the point quickly. Some redundant sentences here and there, but it is to be expected of a post that is approaching the character limit. The extended introduction adds immensely to the length without contributing much to the actual argumentation. But it also helps to make your speech the most reader-friendly of them all; it packs a ton of information while leaving the 'debate attitude' at the door.
Attitude:
  • There isn't much to say here: Marco has become a gold standard for sportsmanship in both sections of manga battledome over the past few months - that certainly doesn't change here. Your speech is friendly and unassertive without being docile, you respectfully ask voters to clarify their opinions should you find them unsatisfying, and you easily spot when the atmosphere becomes sour, then attempt to remedy the situation.

Nikushimi - Itachi, Opening

Strength of argument:
  • A satisfying introduction for arguments on the Itachi side of the battle but there are unquestionably a few problems. What stands out the most is the scripting of your match between these two characters. Any sort of discussion on a hypothetical event is bound to invoke at least some speculative fiction from every side of the debate. But I would say that your post suffers more from this flaw than any of the other five speeches: every time we change gears, you draw up a new description of the fighters that suggests that everything you say happens one after another. By itself, this is not a problem but it can give the impression that your arguments will only hold true if the precedings occur exactly as you have outlined. Finer details should be left to rebuttals, where you can simply spin your opponent's script to your advantage.

    Barring that, there were a lot of excellent arguments in this post. Of course, all of the standard mangekyō points are presented clearly and dangerously: the inability to watch Itachi for Amaterasu without being struck by Tsukuyomi and vice versa. Mentioning karasu bunshin as a more efficient method of multiplying one's attack power when compared to Jiraiya's kage bunshin was good as well, as it helped to combat the huge stamina difference frequently perceived between these two fighters. You have also addressed the fact that many of base Jiraiya's precautions are handicaps and liabilities: your point about tengai hōjin is essentially irrefutable. Your speech has made it perfectly clear that Jiraiya will die should he open with a direct assault or approach while unprepared.

    That's not to say that your arguments were flawless: I found it a bit silly that you openly admit Jiraiya is smart enough to not waste any time against Itachi and resort to sennin mōdo immediately, yet state a paragraph later that Jiraiya is likely to begin the battle by closing the distance between himself and Itachi. Similarly, I don't see your argument for Itachi possibly breaking free of magen: gamarinshō before he can be killed by Jiraiya as particularly convincing, although I can't fault you for trying: it is one of the most grating abilities available to your opponent. Overall, I realize that I pointed out a lot of concerns here when compared to my examination of Marco's speech, but I feel that both of you did very well. The Jiraiya arguments are a bit better at this point but on the all-around score, your speech takes this round handily.
Use of evidence and examples:
  • Your use of evidence in this speech is exemplary and serves as an excellent guidepost for the teammates that follow you. Every argument you have introduced is backed up soundly by either information profiles or multiple manga scans. They are integrated into the post well and never become a distraction despite their number. I do not consider your sourcing of the Naruto Wiki to be a major cause for concern: while it was formerly plagued with bouts of fan-based speculation, the wiki has undergone an immense transformation over the past few months. All ninjutsu profiles on the site now perfectly match the canon commentary found in the data book - provided that the ninjutsu in question actually has a data book profile. As long as you cross-reference to be safe, controlled use of the wiki is not a problem.
Relevance:
  • Absolutely no complaints. Your post is very quick to jump into the point and spends just about the right amount of time on each subject - points that are self-explanatory enough are resigned to the click of a link instead of taking up space in the speech proper. It is impossible to find anything to complain about.
Presentation:
  • Here is where I believe you shine brightest. Your post is a joy to look at: adequately formatted, with headers neatly marking off each small passage, bold and italicized font where necessary (only one instance!) and links hanging as decorations every other sentence. There are even a few bracketed numerical citations for when there was a bit too much to attach to a particular sentence. You essentially cover just as much material as your opponent's speech, but with half the text. Concise and very, very reader-friendly, I would say your post has the best presentation in this event.
Language:
  • Another category where you are either the best or second-best poster. Your sentences are brief and objective: there are rarely any wasted words. Grammar is perfect and there are no observable mistakes in spelling or punctuation. There was a bit of unnecessary informality in some places. For instance: for the links under your 'Susano'o' section, it would have been more professional to provide a brief description of the ninjutsu's effect rather than simply stating that it 'won't end well' for Jiraiya and allowing the scan to speak for itself. Overall, I was very pleased here.
Attitude:
  • Your character is a bit different but I believe you just about tie with Marco for being the best in this category. You happily welcome constructive criticism and you have maintained a friendly rivalry with the opposition while still looking out for your own teammates. Your unabashed pride in Itachi-sama's power has brought a special brand of atmosphere to the forum: one that is competitive while still being upbeat - a positive influence in my eyes. User:Winchester Gospel has recently become quite the fan of Nikushimi.

Cyphon - Jiraiya, First Rebuttal

Strength of argument:
  • The largest strength of your speech is your attention to, and use of logic and reasoning. It allows one to drift a bit further into the realms of speculation, but when used correctly, it can oftentimes be more convincing than plain old statements. Speaking of which, you have made excellent use of the data book stats - instead of trying to prove grandiose points about character hype and storyline positioning, you take them at face value and compare them where they are most likely to effect the battle.

    That said, arguments are only about as good as the logic being used to define them. I have already made it clear that I don't entirely agree with your reasoning. For example, you state that because Naruto requires a kage bunshin to assist him in forming a rasengan, he is only half as skilled as Jiraiya who can form a rasengan by himself. Here, I believe you have falsely attributed mathematical proportions to what is simply a case of multi-tasking. To give an example, a person who can write an essay and watch television at the same time is not necessarily twice as proficient at either task as a person who can not. The ideas being incorporated into this argument are only quantifiable on the most basic level, thus any 'calculation' derived from them is prone to inaccuracy.

    I have already mentioned the Yondaime Raikage to you previously, so I will refrain from discussing him much further. Overall, I felt that this argument would have been more effective if you simply left the comparison out altogether and stuck to Jiraiya's already impressive speed feats. But please note: I understand that you meant this to be a possibility, a hypothetical based on circumstantial evidence rather than something that is hard-lined fact. It is not a point that I, as a voter, would dwell on excessively.

    As for everything else, you have done an excellent job. You rebuked some of your opponent's more detrimental claims: for instance, that Jiraiya wishes to immediately close the distance between himself and his opponent. Useful information can also be gleaned from your opening argument about positioning: Jiraiya has yomi numa on the earth and kuchiyose on the water, while Itachi has but suitons on the water and no distinguishable advantage on land. Your passage on gama mise and gama hyōrō was especially important here, as your partner's precceding speech did not get into the specifics of the battle and thus did not talk about attaining sennin mōdo. You also reiterated Marco's points while maintaining the flexibility of his opening: you stuck to a frank discussion of your opponent's points rather than recreating their scenario in your favor. Overall, a solid speech.
Use of evidence and examples:
  • Still a little lacking but on the whole, a big step up from Marco's speech. You provided a few scan links but more importantly, you are posting data book stats and quotes and using them to draw conclusions. Comparatively, I still can't say team Jiraiya is doing as well as team Itachi when it comes to evidence and examples but what was provided in your speech is satisfactory: you link and use evidence only when you need to. Otherwise, you rely on rhetoric and your own deductive reasoning - it doesn't grant you points as easily but it's respectable and sometimes a whole lot more convincing then simply typing in a url code.
Relevance:
  • Here is where you very visibly rise over both of your teammates: you speech is very direct and to the point. You manage to respond to every bit of your opponent's post efficiently, and you somehow manage to make your responses worth more than the points they are responding to. You never give a subject more time than necessary but you also never brush a point off. In other words, of all six posters, I would expect you to be the most likely to accurately respond to fairly irrelevant topics without becoming superfluous yourself.
Presentation:
  • A bit of a bare-bones post in this department. Even barring any html formatting, your speech is the only one of the six to not feature clear cut-offs for each subject - there are no titles or markers short of the quotations you are actually rebutting. On the plus side, your post is short and tough: far more concise than either of your teammates and immensely effective for it. It is an easy read and allows voters to quickly gain an overview of the subject. In a way, its weaknesses translate to its strengths.
Language:
  • Satisfactory, but I can't give you any particular praise. Your language is clear and strong but can be aesthetically unprofessional at times. It would have been preferable to spell out every abbreviation, romanize every numerical digit and add in some optional punctuation to break up the flow. There are a few redundant sentences that seem to be there only to convey a degree of formality (prefacing with "To take the point further" or "To jump in quicker" instead of simply moving on) that could have been left out entirely. Despite a distinct lack of polish, your language cuts to the chase, so-to-speak. It is powerful and suitable for a debate. I also found this sentence fairly humourous: "Should Jiraiya get Itachi into this toad it could be a major cause of concern for Itachi." A cause for concern, indeed.
Attitude:
  • I was a little disappointed with some of your reactions to the votes in this thread. One I am especially referring to is your use of a facepalm emoticon to respond to a statement made by a voter - this has been commented on by several other members. I can understand being a little frustrated over a visible dismissal of your work but you shouldn't be so quick to throw away your professionalism. If I recall correctly, Marco politely asked said voter to provide some elaboration and was promptly greeted with a more favourable response. Again, I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this - I know you're a reasonable guy. But in an event where everyone is trying to maintain a friendly and cordial atmosphere, a small slip-up such as this is enough to put you below the competition.

Strategos - Itachi, First Rebuttal

Strength of argument:
  • While it was good of you to briefly rebuke some of your opponent's introductory arguments, I am not entirely satisfied with some of the results: I thought it was a bit much to rely on the technical ambiguity of Kisame's statement to Itachi when nearly every translator, including the one you linked, believes the comment is referring to Jiraiya. I also thought your paragraph on fighting style was dismissive of Jiraiya's Itachi-specific in-character knowledge - something that your opening poster accepted without contest.

    What I do like about your introduction is its respect of battledome tradition: despite acknowledging your opponent's points, you correctly dismiss character parallels and data book stat totals as proper ways to argue in support of a character winning. You kept the spirit of the section alive in your speech, something that a few other participants seemed to forget about for the duration of this debate.

    Other than that, I don't have much to say. All of the content in your speech is presented flawlessly so the only criticisms I could possibly offer are how your points conflict with my own subjective views on the manga: I don't see why a performance of the tree-walking method is enough to validate Jiraiya's chakra control; surely, one would expect his numerous jōnin-level ninjutsu to require finer chakra control than a technique frequently taught to genin and academy students. I also remain unconvinced by team Itachi's take on magen: gamarinshō. Unless you are referring to kyōten chiten, Itachi shouldn't be much better than Pain when it comes to preventing the initial application of the genjutsu, despite his sharingan. If you are referring to kyōten chiten, I would like to see more of your thoughts on how it would reflect an auditory genjutsu - especially when the user is likely to be at least partially concealed.

    I like your mention of Jiraiya's summons and just how taxing they can be should he decide to pull out many of them - this smoothly transitions to your point that Jiraiya has to spend chakra on numerous precautious ninjutsu to avoid being hit by a single casting of Itachi's most deadly moves. I can also buy your rhetoric on Jiraiya's commentary of senpō: kebari senbon in relation to yatai kuzushi - though I would probably dismiss the inclusion of yomi numa in this argument. A very solid speech overall - despite being brief, you have left few rocks for you closing speaker to overturn.
Use of evidence and examples:
  • You continue team Itachi's streak of excellence in this category: every single point you raise is accompanied by multiple links to manga scans, data book profiles and commentary from respected translators. I was admittedly surprised that one of your links lead to a post authored by yourself in a non-debate related thread. It is not a big deal here but I would be weary of doing this in the future as you are essentially giving yourself more time to make and refute arguments - as such, I would count the linked post as part of your speech's content and factor it into both your character limit count and my own scoring of your speech. Outside of this, you have done a brilliant job. The amount of evidence you have attached looks almost doubly impressive when considering the brevity of your written passages.
Relevance:
  • Your score here is nearly perfect. While you do indulge a few of your opponent's more story-based arguments, you recognize that they are unimportant to consider in the long run and respond only for the sake of addressing every point. Zooming out to look at the entire speech, your responses are quick and graceful - knowing exactly when a point has been sufficiently addressed and moving fluidly to the argument without any excessive dwelling. You never so much as afford yourself the time to go off-topic, which makes sense considering you have submitted the shortest speech of them all. I don't have any concerns.
Presentation:
  • Your speech is wonderful to look at and easily among the top tier in this category. All of your arguments are expertly put forth, with the utmost emphasis on clarity and conciseness. The question-and-answer format makes it very easy for a poster to quickly gain an understanding of the subject without multiple readings. I am also rather fond of mixing italics and colours when creating in-sentence links: it gives off a look of professionalism without being pretentious. All in all, an excellent showing in this category - any speech with a nice coat of polish should strive to look like this.
Language:
  • No surprises here. Based on prior experience, I had already considered you to be the most linguistically able of the participants in this debate. You do not disappoint here: not a singe word is wasted and there is a distinct lack of noticeable mistakes in language. Your writing is short and to the point without ever sacrificing flow or negating the inference of some much-needed detail. Your immense attention to the marriage of exposition and aesthetic make this speech the prettiest to look at by far. Excellent work.
Attitude:
  • Perhaps not so ironically, I am going to suggest to you what I said to Cyphon: try not to become distressed too quickly. I can't penalize you severely as the comment in question was limited to a single post and was published in the discussion thread which I - as per the rules - am not able to consider with much weight. But again, in an event with several gentlemen such as yourself competing, even a minor retort like this is enough to cast a negative shadow when it comes to relative scoring. By no means am I trying to say you have to simply lie down and take whatever comments you get. But if you feel you are being treated unfairly, report it to the adjudicators, who will discuss it with the event organizer and decide whether to nullify the comment in question. Or better yet, just bring it to Suu yourself. Remember: everyone's behavior is looked at equally, even the voters. But the voters aren't receiving a score for what they say - the participants are.

Turrin - Jiraiya, Second Rebuttal

Strength of argument:
  • While trivial, you have resolved the arguments concerning Itachi's statements with an impressive mix of deduction, manga statements and translator input. A satisfying introduction that ties back to the intro put out by Marco in the opening.

    Moving on, you bring up a hefty number of valuable points and hammer them home while rounding off any incomplete thoughts by Cyphon and Marco: discussing the importance of Jiraiya's knowledge on Itachi's Tsukuyomi as well his specialization in genjutsu is vital to assuming he will combat Itachi correctly. You have also placed an emphasis on the importance of Jiraiya's summons that your predecessors failed to: their large area-of-effect attacks, their ability to draw ninjutsu from a stamina-inferior Itachi and most importantly, their ability to quickly create an uncrossable distance to use for either garnering sennin mōdo or launching a long-range assault are all ideas that stick. (Senpō: fūton sunabokori was another easily cast solution to temporarily putting off some of Itachi's best attacks.) I also found your suggestion about karasu bunshin interesting as it is something I have thought about in the past.

    There were still a few things I had inquiries about. Regarding doton: yomi numa, I was unsure as to whether you were suggesting Jiraiya could sink the canal water into an underlying swamp or simply warp the water itself into a marsh. Based on some of the data book comments we have received on doton ninjutsu (Gaara, Kisame, etc.), I find it a little difficult to buy the later, while the former simply sounds strange. I also believe you may have neglected that when the data book says a technique covers 'all ranges', it only needs to cover a minimum of fifteen metres - this would be relevant to your yatai kuzushi argument.

    Still, any criticisms here are minor as your speech made numerous excellent points, each with a sufficient amount of depth. You also countered your opponent's concerns brilliantly by overwhelming them with such an immense amount of analysis - how heavily you scrutinize each and every detail is what made this particular speech such a fascinating read. As a result, I feel that Team Jiraiya was able to close this debate out with more strength than they had begun with. I was so impressed by the later sections of your post that I felt the need to simply disregard many of the potential criticisms I could have lobbied at it. For me, this was the top speech of the event.
Use of evidence and examples:
  • It suffices to say that you absolutely dominated this category when compared to your teammates. Your post draws heavily from the manga and data book. What was interesting was your method of differentiating between primary and supplementary evidence: when just an external link is not adequate, you weave data book quotations directly into your written passages and post scan images directly into the speech. You have not only made ample use of evidence (almost always several links per point): you have colour-coded them, you have ordered them, you have done everything you could possibly do in order to make sure readers pay attention to what matters the most.
Relevance:
  • Your score in this category is hurt a bit by the sheer length of your opening arguments. I felt that the character parallels discussed had already been accepted, if not universally, at least to the point that the average reader would consider Itachi and Jiraiya worthy of being each others' adversary. The takes on the conversation between Itachi and Kisame were even worse - so many translators have shared the exact same opinion on this point that calling it into question appears to be grasping at straws. Of course, you did not do anything wrong - it was in the preceding argument and you did nothing but refute these points to the best of your ability. Still, some of the finer details of your argument are a bit semantic and on the whole, I just simply wouldn't have spent so much time on this.
Presentation:
  • As mentioned previously, your post is more than a bit over the specified size limit - that fact will play a role in the scoring of this category. Still, your post was truly a pleasure to read in spite of its length. It was not as tidy and concise as it could have been but still, you made impressive use of all that text. Your tone was casually academic and projected the image of sitting down and having an in-depth discussion of the scenario rather than participating in a heated debate. As a result, I found it very easy to follow your post as you moved from one point to the next. I was also impressed by your colour-coding of links and quotes: whether intentional or not, you used a fairly sophisticated arrangement of the colour palette in your post - one that is not immediately recognizable to the average citizen. But to an expert, this is some seriously advanced colour-work on display here.
Language:
  • I felt that you were just a bit too conversational with a few parts of your post - it made for a fun read but it sometimes came off as too informal - for example, prefacing a sentence with "Well..." gives off an inappropriately casual vibe. There was also a noticeable problem with commas here: I observed many, many places where a comma would be optional but preferable. Strangely, this point flows in reverse as well, as many of the commas that were actually present were situated in odd places - often mid-sentence and frequently before a 'because'. There were a handful of grammatical mistakes as well but nothing so severe that it detracted from the point being made. In retrospect, the unusually high number of mistakes in this category could simply be due to the length of your post - more chances to slip up.
Attitude:
  • I found your speech polite and respectful of your opponents' arguments. It was also rather graceful of you to accept any penalty for exceeding the character limit without much of a fight. I can't say much about the third-position speakers on both sides of this debate: from what I saw, both came into the discussion fairly late in the process. In turn, this led to fewer interactions between them, the opponents and the voters. But generally, nothing negative has stood out to me - I have no complaints.

Vergil642 - Itachi, Second Rebuttal

Strength of argument:
  • I am admittedly finding it a bit difficult to provide any major commentary on your speech without sounding redundant. Partly because Team Itachi is reiterating as the debate goes on while Team Jiraiya is clarfying, and partly because I feel you haven't made any real mistakes. As with Strategos, the only real criticisms I can lobby are whether I personally find your explanations feasible.

    The debate that I am most interested in here is yomi numa vs. Susano'o. The in-manga description of Yata no Kagami suggests to me that the shield fortifies itself with chakra of the elemental affinity opposite that of the incoming attack, to such a high level of concentration that said attack is guarded against perfectly. For this debate, I take that to mean that Susano'o will only dispel portions of swamp that actively touch its shield - meaning that the skeletal solider and his summoner will eventually be dragged into the swamp as the shield inevitably can not dispel the marsh from all directions at once.

    That this conclusion is being argued at all gives me the impression that Team Itachi is using the data book statement, "making the jutsu ineffective" in the utmost literal sense - that by merely touching the swamp, its entire mass is to be nullified. I find this angle difficult to accept without substantial evidence that has unfortunately not been provided here. Outside of this debate, I've only convinced myself of this argument by being of the mindset that a legendary creature summoned by a legendary dōjutsu wielding a legendary weapon can not possibly be defeated by what amounts to merely an advanced elemental manipulation - in other words, hype. I am not suggesting that is definitely what is going on here but without a careful explanation of the exact measures Susano'o will take to free itself of the earth, I have no choice but to assume Itachi lacks a perfect, permanent counter to yomi numa.

    That said, I have no major qualms with your remaining points. Attention to detail is key here: suigadan's exploitation of blind spots, the undetectable realism of Itachi's genjutsu, the willingness of Sage Jiraiya to directly test the abilities of a newly sprouted being such as Susano'o - many of the points you mention are easy to neglect when one could simply talk about the potency of Itachi's lesser mangekyō techniques. But here they are, all ordered and assembled in your post. A great display of debating skills.
Use of evidence and examples:
  • Admittedly, your speech looks a bit pale when compared to the ones that came before it; it is to be expected when one must follow in the shadow of posts that have already provided a sufficiently vast supply of evidence and examples. Still, you use links and references liberally as they suit your argument, and you have provided enough of them to outrank the first two speakers of Team Jiraiya in this category. What I did enjoy was your use of very specific manga scans that aren't usually considered popular viewing - examples would be that fairly quaint panel demonstrating the unbelievable speed of suiton: sujinheki, as well as Itachi's often-forgot display of proficiency with projectile weapons. If a source was necessary, it was there. All in all, a solid effort.
Relevance:
  • Your presentation consisted of "pure" rebuttals, forgoing the introduction of new ideas to support your selected character in favour of relentlessly attacking the opponent's speech. The way you address each and every particle of a point with which you disagree is intense and constantly engaging. Generally, every debater generated a speech revolving around the character they have chosen to support but here, I feel like your post was more about Jiraiya and the flaws of his methods than it was about Itachi and his strengths. As such, I find myself hard-pressed to find even a single sentence that is off-topic. Brilliant.
Presentation:
  • You have more or less used the exact same formatting as Strategos. You also draw from both of the speeches that preceded you and briefly restate why you felt their points still hold true after another round of rebuttals. Together, these give Team Itachi an air of unity across the duration of the entire debate, an air that isn't as apparent or observable in Team Jiraiya. Your post was the longest amongst your team but it was also immensely efficient: the lack of fluff ensures that it is the most precise and comprehensive of Team Itachi's works - just what is necessary for the final speaking position.
Language:
  • While a bit of eloquence is nice here and there, I absolutely adore the frankness of your language and debating. It is honest and allows you to address even complex arguments with simplicity - answering a contention about dragging Itachi into the gourd toad by simply stating 'If Jiraiya is that close, he should have just used a Rasengan' is something that rings true for the many overcomplicated arguments I have seen raised over the years. Your organization and actual choice of words is fairly rudimentary but the way you convey your tone adds a certain energy to your post that makes it flow very well. For me, this is what made your speech the easiest read of all, despite being the longest on Team Itachi.
Attitude:
  • Again, not much to say here. Despite your aggresive style of argumentation, you have shown nothing but humility outside of the debate proper - I thank you for that. No eloquent disdain for you!

Overall Analysis


After completing my initial reading of all six speeches, I felt that - given the specificity of the scenario - Team Jiraiya came out on top in terms of actual arguments. As such, I was almost certain that I would be casting my vote for their team. The situation was only complicated when I had actually sat down and begun to write my vote up for submission. The following is a brief summary of my thoughts on each scoring category:

Strength of argument:
Though occurring a bit on both sides, my minor trifles with the Jiraiya argument were the excessive length and bits of speculation that I felt reached too far, while my problems with the Itachi argument were the scripting of the scenario and the opponent's movements. While it could be easy to chalk these happenings up to mistakes on the part of the debaters, I don't see it as such a coincidence: length and speculation are perfect representations of what Jiraiya stands for - numerous abilities that transform and change depending on the enemy and the environment. Similarly, scripting is fairly representative of Itachi's abilities: his fighting style is so precise and reserved that such a well-maintained scenario comes almost naturally. In other words, I saw the writing style of each team to be fairly representative of the characters they embodied. While there were admittedly a few exaggerations, many points raised would be indistinguishable from the truth under optimal - but still realistic - conditions.

The number of quality arguments from either side balanced out quite well, which is to be expected from so many excellent posters gathering together. There were sparks of brilliance on both sides of the fence, but I really feel like the Jiraiya team won this category: they successfully convinced me that Jiraiya was all about adaptability which served to perfectly counter Itachi's very specific form of combat. Both sides managed to refute several of the opposing arguments to a satisfactory level, but with favorable stipulations and some very in-depth posts, the Jiraiya team managed to negate several of their foe's traditional advantages without going so far as to counter them entirely.
Use of evidence and examples:
I can safely say that if it weren't for the astounding prominence of this category, I would have had an easier time in simply voting for Jiraiya, despite the consistent excellence provided by the Itachi team. While Turrin brought this category home wonderfully in the final bout of speeches, there is an remarkable difference between the first two speakers for both teams. Nikushimi set the stage perfectly with his numerous links and Strategos only contributed further. That is not to say that team Jiraiya completely ignored the aspect of evidence. Quite the contrary: on many occassions they cite information that is clearly derived from details found in the Naruto data books. However, there is little flash to the presentation of these sources: I wouldn't even know which tidbits came from where if I hadn't already read significant portions of the few reliable sources for Naruto information. The Itachi team takes this category handily.
Relevance:
While it wasn't entirely irrelevant, I was a bit surprised at the arguments revolving around comments made in the post-chūnin exam story arc; not so much at the fact that they were brought up as at the unusually large amount of time spent debating them. Outside of that, I don't really have any comments for the relevance category: despite the heavy amount of material to sift through, no speech ever droned on or meandered into unnecessary topics for extended periods of time. It was a fascinating read - indeed, a testament to the writers for maintaining our attention so easily. Again, I feel that the Itachi team took this category: literally everyone discussed the subject I am complaining about but the Jiraiya team - with their immensely long speeches - wandered into forsaken territory for quite a bit longer.
Presentation:
I was a little disheartened to see that every debater chose to go with standard battledome-practice response for this debate: simply doing a point-by-point response using quotation brackets. I was hoping for a little more attention to aesthetic - a tiny bit of extra formatting can go a long way in contributing to a posters' clarity and vibrance. The reverse aspect of keeping things simple is that every post was easy to understand. Speeches were written in a user-friendly manner, that allowed readers to quickly get a grasp of the subject being discussed before fluidly moving on to the next point. Despite the large differences in size, write-ups by Marco and Turrin were just as much a joy to read as a more concise speech from Strategos. Both teams took different routes with their posts - at the moment, I don't see either having a particular advantage here.
Language:
I am being very nitpicky when I say this so do not be offended: I was not extraordinarily impressed with the language used here. Speech lengths could have been trimmed, transitional phrases could have been snipped, redundant sentences for the sake of 'added formality' could have been cast aside, wording and sentence structure could have been more interesting, jarring fluctuations between strict terminology and rough informality could have been relegated, goukakyu could have been gōkakyu, etc. I am admittedly a huge fan of literary elegance so it is difficult for me to not be a little snobby with this category. Everyone was 'satisfactory' but not much 'exceeded my expectations'. Still, I found that the Itachi team was a far more clear with their language, quick with their speeches, and on average, made the fewest number of spelling and grammatical blunders.
Attitude:
There were some unfortunate comments from both teams that I had the displeasure of seeing. While I can understand the frustration of seeing someone put your hard work down with just a mere few sentences, it is important to maintain a friendly atmosphere. Not everybody is going to share the same opinions and not everybody is going to have put the same amount of thought into the scenario as the participants have.

All six of you have proven yourself to be exceptional persons in the battledome community: as such, many members look up to you. Half this debate is arguing for the character you want to see win, but the other half is convincing the audience of your beliefs. The latter is arguably the more important half, as to do so, you must set aside some pride for the sake of being a model poster - this is something that takes more skill than any argument one could possibly come up with. Remember: the goal of The Great Debate is not only to provide a place for glorifing exhibition matches: it is made with the task of raising the conversation standards in the entire battledome community. I say this not to the participants but to everyone who has been kind enough to read my post, whether you plan to be involved in this project or not: by signing up for this, you have everyone's eyes - including the attention of those who look up to you. Don't let them down.
The Vote:
I'll be honest here: If you do not already know, I have classically supported Itachi winning this match-up. I believe that, while both sides are essentially equal in terms of skill and ability, I see the in-manga scenarios most likely to favour Itachi as having a higher probability of coming up. Most ninja battles don't start as battles, they start as scenes - and outside of battledome-esque stipulations, I have never seen a potential battle between these two as one beginning with the distance necessary to give Jiraiya the advantage: for this reason, I see Itachi's game-enders such as the mangekyō's Amaterasu as being a bit more likely to pop up early in the battle when compared to Jiraiya's one-hit kills such as doton: yomi numa - the difference is slight but existent, and it is what ultimately forms the basis of my beliefs.

Which is why I found it a bit surprising that the Jiraiya team had me convinced.

As stated earlier, I really did want to vote for Jiraiya here. One factor contributing to the tardiness of this very post is that I have spent a bit of time wondering just how I would be allowed to vote for the team that I believe won me over. I was ultimately unable to come up with any method that wasn't dishonest to the scoring rubric set up by Suu - and I wouldn't have it any other way as again, this event is about discussion, not deciding the true winner of a historic battle. Team Jiraiya had arguments that were exceptionally comprehensive while still managing to be malleable enough to bounce comfortably between different scenarios. But in the end, the strength and conviction of their arguments were unable to make up for the complete and utter lack of bibliographical evidence early in the match. Evidence constitutes nearly a third of the entire aggregate score and unfortunately, that is what proves to be Jiraiya's greatest downfall as without it, he can not hope to measure up to an Itachi who has been both excellent and consistent, matching him dead-evenly in every other scoring category. To summarize everything into a single statement, I felt that team Jiraiya had the better arguments but team Itachi put up a better debate.


Team Jiraiya: Marco, Cyphon, Turrin
  • Strength of arguments: 34/40
  • Use of evidence and examples: 18/30
  • Relevance: 7/10
  • Presentation: 8/10
  • Language: 3/5
  • Attitude: 4/5
Total: 74/100


Team Itachi: Nikushimi, Strategos, Vergil642
  • Strength of arguments: 30/40
  • Use of evidence: 26/30
  • Relevance: 8/10
  • Presentation: 8/10
  • Language: 4/5
  • Attitude: 4/5
Total: 80/100

Vote: Team Itachi


Having said that, I am glad that I got to participate - even if only for a little bit - in the very first of what will soon be a long line of debate topics. It was truly an honour to be accepted as a judge by Suu despite there being numerous members far more qualified than I could ever be. I have nothing but respect for him and my fellow adjudicator, Akitō, who has quickly demonstrated himself as one of the finest new additions to the manga battledome.

What was the most nerve-wracking about this entire event was being forced to scrutinize many respected members that have been around the block more than a few times: Cyphon was actually one of the first members I looked up to when I was new and merely a humble Konoha Library poster. From that same period, I don't think I have ever had the patience to read as many 'tl;dr' theories from a member other than Turrin. Marco is one of the coolest new members I have met in the battledome, and Strategos is one of the most elegant. Formerly known only for his immense love of Itachi, Nikushimi is quickly rising as a sleeper hit among the section's membership. And as for Vergil642.... well, I unfortunately do not know you as well but I assume it is all the same.

I strived to come at this match with an open mind and I hope I haven't been too unfair. Thanks, everybody, for giving me your time.

~Winchester~


Last edited by Winchester Gospel; 02-22-2011 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:55 AM   #11
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Team Jiraiya:
Narutofann12

Team Itachi:
alex payne
Akatsuki210
Yokokorama
IIIusion
tedrocks123
Baroxio
WolfPrinceKouga
foreign

The following votes were nulled: here.

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Old 02-17-2011, 12:55 AM   #12
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The speaking phase of this debate has concluded. We will now commence the voting/scoring phase.

Above this post are three posts reserved for the adjudicators' judgements. These judgements will follow some very strict criteria, and award each team a certain number of points.

This thread will also be open for public votes. These votes need not follow the same criteria and points system as the adjudicators' judgements, but still need to provide sufficient reasoning along with the vote. Public voters must announce very clearly which team they felt 'won' the debate. Adjudicators may - in concert - choose to veto any votes that they feel provided insufficient or unsatisfactory reasoning.

This thread may be used for debate-related discussion, but please try and keep debating (ie. continuing the debate) at a minimum. Public votes and adjudicators' judgements must only take into account the speeches that make up the formal debate shown above.

Participants of the debate should keep in mind that their attitude and behaviour is still being judged even in this thread. Bad sportsmanship or an aggressive/impolite reaction to criticism in this thread will result in penalty.

Speakers, please refrain from editing your speeches during this time - not even to fix spelling/grammatical errors. Penalties will apply.

Also check out the Discussion Thread to help shortlist and vote on the topic of the next debate!

Happy voting! Voting will remain open for three days.

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Old 02-17-2011, 01:02 AM   #13
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Finally! I have yet to read Vergil's speech but it looks good.

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:07 AM   #14
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If anyone is curious:
Team Jiraiya: Opening Speech by Marco
Character Count: 25,603

Team Itachi: Opening Speech by Nikushimi
Character Count: 12,400

Team Jiraiya: Primary Rebuttal by Cyphon
Character Count: 20,296
w/o Quotations: 17,585

Team Itachi: Primary Rebuttal by Strategos
Character Count: 10,648
w/o Quotations: 6,271

Team Jiraiya: Secondary Rebuttal by Turrin
Character Count: 37,426
w/o Quotations: 31,125

Team Itachi: Secondary Rebuttal by Vergil642
Character Count: 23,219
w/o Quotations: 15,167

Character Limit per Speech: 30,000

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:22 AM   #15
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Are me and Strategos the only ones who thought it was better to keep our arguments concise and digestable?

I can't believe Turrin actually exceeded the character limit... How is that possible with one post, anyway? I thought each post has a character limit of 10,000.

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Old 02-17-2011, 03:25 AM   #16
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The character limit on posts has been removed.

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Old 02-17-2011, 04:16 AM   #17
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To be honest, I was quite surprised to discover that Turrin had sent me a PM telling me he'd "discovered that there was no longer a word limit on speeches", especially given the fact that I'd sent the following PM to all participants a couple of days into the preparatory period.
Quote:
Secondly, as many of you may have noticed, there is no longer a 10,000 character limit on posts. The adjudicators for this round have, however, decided that we should still enforce a 'speech limit' to try and stay as true to a formal debate as possible. The rules state that the speech limit is "three posts", which is roughly equivalent to 30,000 characters. To check how many words your speech is, simply go to your Blog, click 'Post to your Blog', copy/paste your speech there and click 'Preview'. It will tell you in the Preview how many words your speech is. If it doesn't, then your speech is below 10,000 words. The adjudicators will also be checking speech lengths this way.
(Should anybody have any difficulties doing so, feel free to PM me)
Not only did this come in the form of a PM, but I also posted it publicly in the Discussion Thread.

Furthermore, it is clearly stated in the rules that we will be enforcing a word limit regardless of the lack of internal word limit on posts. I realise I was not around to answer your question in time, Turrin, and I apologise for that, but really the answers were right there in front of you. I am also wondering whether you tried asking the other two adjudicators.

It doesn't warrant disqualification, of course, but I will be penalising you.

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Old 02-17-2011, 05:12 AM   #18
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*whistle* PENALTY!!


Next matchup: Oro vs Deidara
Kakashi vs Guy
Wrong thread


Last edited by Marco; 02-17-2011 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:39 AM   #19
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Turrin is disqualified.

But seriously: I didn't mean to highlight Turrin's speech with my post so don't all get up at once in the discussion thread. There was some light conversation on whether to employ a character limit for the debate and eventually, the aforementioned rule was added to the guide by Suu. So, someone was going to look into it eventually.

My take: Even though other points are undoubtedly going to come up, the main reason to employ a speech (usually a time) limit in a real debate is always going to be to ensure that neither side is allowed to introduce more arguments and address them more sufficiently then their opponents. Looking at the character limits posted, it appears that Team Itachi actually went for the concise, presentable look while Team Jiraiya went the 'everything and the kitchen sink' route. The former team was not even attempting to jam as much content as possible into their speeches; they responded as they wished and as a result, the necessity of strictly maintaining this rule was relegated somewhat.

Aside from those observations, it also looks like Turrin saw some of the posts in the discussion thread and mistook the forum-wide removal of a character limit to mean something specific to this event. There was little abuse going on as would normally be the case with this type of rule-break; as such, I find it hard to give anyone much of a hassle over it. This is supposed to be fun event and no one is going to be held in contempt for being a little overeager. I have to factor it into my vote because, while minor, it is still a rule. But it isn't anything to worry about.

Remember: voters don't have to follow the same criteria as the adjudicators. If you feel someone has done very well and deserves to win, it shouldn't matter how long their posts are. What you value from a speaker and what you value from a team is entirely up to you!

Happy voting everyone.


Last edited by Winchester Gospel; 02-20-2011 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Inappropriate.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:47 AM   #20
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WG loves long posts.

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