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Old 12-10-2010, 12:32 PM   #1
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Default Everything about Bijuu mode vs Sennin Mode

I've been thinking about how Naruto will fight from now on in BM. And well, since I had too much time on my hands I decided to make an overlong post about it
Especially I've been wondering about his replacement for KB afterall his goal is to be stronger than he was with SM.

Not only is Naruto losing his entire bag of tricks, which is what allowed him to defeat most of his opponents, but he's also losing the FRS and the Oodama Rasengan.
Even should he combine SM and BM one day I sincerely doubt he'll get the FRS, though the Oodama is a possibility.
If you think about his fight with Pain it should be apparent how much the absence of bunshin and FRS is going to limit Naruto's tactical options.

Yes, I know he's crazy fast in this new mode, but not that much faster than he was in SM and to Madara and Sasuke speed is nothing.
Yes, he can use those chakra arms, but a) Sasuke has already seen them and won't be surprised by them and b) Sasuke can just incinerate them with his Amaterasu. besides they are rather clumsy.
Even the new Rasengan, which will probably end up the same as the bijuu blast isn't that big an improvement. The move has been defended against so often it can't be expected to succeed now. It mostly fills the gap the FRS left behind.

Right now I don't really see how he's much stronger by relying on BM instead of SM. Especially if you look at how he fought against the Kyuubi once his mother filled his vessel with love. If anything he's weaker since the loss of his trickery is worth more than gaining those chakra arms imo.

I think this adjusting the ratio of plus and minus chakra thing he's learning right now will be used for much more than the Rasengan.
Depending on what properties the two types of chakra possess, the manga seems to indicate the white chakra is soft and flexible, while the black one is hard and heavy, Naruto's future fighting style could be based upon combining the two lessons he learned in this training session. First to shape his chakra shroud as he desires and second to adjust the ratio of the two types of chakra he has in bijuu mode.

The black chakra is what makes the new Rasengan so hard and heavy and due to it's weight it doesn't seem to move very well. Whenever Naruto has used it in larger quantities he has been standing either in place or while he fought Pain he had to materialise an additional pair of legs to move his otherwise immobile body. The black chakra is also what allowed a defense which not even Kusanagi could break through.

The white chakra is soft and flexible as we've seen numerous times when Naruto used it to grab a tree or when he used it to propel the bijuu ball forwards at a high speed, but it offers little to no protection when the chakra isn't moving rapidly as we saw when Naruto sprained his ankle by crashing into the wall. Presumably it's also what burned so fiercely when Sasuke incinerated the Hachibi and why Sasuke could cut through the Hachibi so easily.

We know Naruto won't ever master numerous jutsu and with Kagebunshin sealed he needs a completely different fighting style. So it has to be something simple and effective. Move with white chakra at high speeds and using that inhuman mobility, which allows counters even while the main body gets hit, and for a short moment use black chakra to amplify an attack, by let's say encasing a fist in black chakra before it hits, or to increase the defense against physical attacks as we've seen many times.

Well what do you think?

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:05 PM   #2
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Youre seriously underestimating the chakra arms man. Chakra arms >sharingan prediction, theyre fast, theyve got range, they can crush stone with ease, and i wouldnt be suprised if they can block attacks. And i dont think rm is that fast; he was fast because he used shunshin. It seems like he also used shunshin in sage mode against pain and he got way more distance out of that one. I dont really think that we'll get any more info on the - and + chakra. I always assumed that only the kyuubi had such a ridiculous defence.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:13 PM   #3
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His fighting style will be more predictable and this is a very bad thing. Yes chakra arms can be used in some tricky way but they cant be compared to additional SM/base mode kage bunshins. RM Naruto will be just a powerhouse with regeneration/shunshin/biju blast. Well of course he will use some tactics but without Kb it will be limited.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbark42 View Post
Youre seriously underestimating the chakra arms man. Chakra arms >sharingan prediction, theyre fast, theyve got range, they can crush stone with ease, and i wouldnt be suprised if they can block attacks. And i dont think rm is that fast; he was fast because he used shunshin. It seems like he also used shunshin in sage mode against pain and he got way more distance out of that one. I dont really think that we'll get any more info on the - and + chakra. I always assumed that only the kyuubi had such a ridiculous defence.
Everything is relative. Yes they are fast and they've got range, but think who naruto will go up against. Sasuke and Madara are both very fast and while the chakra arms can block regular attacks, no one is going to use regular attacks. The weakest attack Sasuke would use against it is chidori and chidori would cut straight through one of those arms. We have evidence of that. Also I doubt those chakra arms will help by themselves against Amaterasu or Susanoo. They would get burned by the first and couldn't break through or defend against the other.

As for speed. I count shunshin usage as speed. Everyone is constantly using it in a fight. It's difficult to compare Naruto's speed in BM and in SM.

We have to get more info on - and + chakra. Right now those things are just out there. We need to know atleast what the two kinds of chakra are good for.

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His fighting style will be more predictable and this is a very bad thing. Yes chakra arms can be used in some tricky way but they cant be compared to additional SM/base mode kage bunshins. RM Naruto will be just a powerhouse with regeneration/shunshin/biju blast. Well of course he will use some tactics but without Kb it will be limited.
That's my point he needs something more than regeneration/shunshin/biju blast or he won't be noticably stronger than in SM. And really there's no way he can defeat Sasuke with those three abilities. The later two are completely worthless against Sasuke. This +/- manipulation would be what makes up for his loss of KB.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:30 PM   #5
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Wall of text no jutsu prevented me from reading this, but I wanted to say that I think eventually SM and KM will be merged somehow, as a final sort of powerup.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:40 PM   #6
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+ and - chakra is nothing more then Yin/light and Yang/black chakras. Those opposites probably consist of either to much spiritual energy or to much physical energy, the girl from the sound4 that fought Shikamaru used a move based mainly on spiritual energy with very litle physical energy that creates ethereal forms that feed on physical energy because spiritual and physical energy need to be balanced. We got a glimps of Yin and Yang based chakra for the first time. Minato sealed only the Yang Kyuubi chakra inside Naruto yet he usess some Yin,im guessing that Kyuubi absorbed slowly some of Naruto's Yin chakra and even made it far stronger,remember Yin and Yang always balance each other so its possible that Kyuubi's Yang made Naruto's Yin stronger over time.

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Old 12-10-2010, 01:42 PM   #7
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What I'm more interested in is if he's going to be capable of combining both modes. Though your proposition is interesting, if mastering this whole black/plus and white/minus chakra helps for Naruto to become a formidable ninja, I say that's an improvement more than welcome.

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Old 12-10-2010, 02:03 PM   #8
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RSM will be super powerful. Ghost punches+chakra arms?Yes please. But i doubt that he will fuse both before his fight with EMS Sasuke. I think Naruto will use RSM to counter Sasukes new EMS jutsu.

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Old 12-10-2010, 08:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amrun View Post
Wall of text no jutsu prevented me from reading this, but I wanted to say that I think eventually SM and KM will be merged somehow, as a final sort of powerup.
If you don't read it just shut up. Nothing you can say will be a worthwhile contribution to the thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by †_Camorra_† View Post
+ and - chakra is nothing more then Yin/light and Yang/black chakras. Those opposites probably consist of either to much spiritual energy or to much physical energy, the girl from the sound4 that fought Shikamaru used a move based mainly on spiritual energy with very litle physical energy that creates ethereal forms that feed on physical energy because spiritual and physical energy need to be balanced. We got a glimps of Yin and Yang based chakra for the first time. Minato sealed only the Yang Kyuubi chakra inside Naruto yet he usess some Yin,im guessing that Kyuubi absorbed slowly some of Naruto's Yin chakra and even made it far stronger,remember Yin and Yang always balance each other so its possible that Kyuubi's Yang made Naruto's Yin stronger over time.
Didn't I adress this once before already with you. Plus and minus isn't yin and yang because for one the Kyuubi doesn't have any yin chakra since Yondaime sealed it and the Kyuubi didn't get it back over the years from Naruto either. There's no evidence, not even a hint of that happening and it would contradict Jiraiya's statement.
Second, there's no reason why Bee would refer to yin and yang by plus and minus. It's a needless complication. Kishi hasn't even explained yin and yang properly, why would he confuse the issue by suddenly calling it plus and minus.
Finally what white and black chakra does and has been doing whenever we saw a jinchuuriki or a bijuu fight doesn't fit to what we've heard about yin and yang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bild View Post
What I'm more interested in is if he's going to be capable of combining both modes. Though your proposition is interesting, if mastering this whole black/plus and white/minus chakra helps for Naruto to become a formidable ninja, I say that's an improvement more than welcome.
I hesitate to predict how the next power up will look like when we don't yet know how the current one will. Once I've seen bijuu mode in action, then I'll be willing to make predictions about what SBM will be like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corax View Post
RSM will be super powerful. Ghost punches+chakra arms?Yes please. But i doubt that he will fuse both before his fight with EMS Sasuke. I think Naruto will use RSM to counter Sasukes new EMS jutsu.
That does sound quite possible, however usually Naruto only showcases one power up per fight. If Naruto's next fight is the one against Sasuke the power up he'll show off will be BM and not SBM

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Old 12-11-2010, 09:29 AM   #10
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I think you're underestimating the all around powerup RM gives Naruto. You're saying he's losing his entire bag of tricks, but you don't realize that RM added to Naruto's tricks would simply make him unbeatable. RM Naruto is likely at the very top of the ninja world in terms of pure physical and destructive ability. If you add the number and tactical advantages given by kagebushin, then it's just too much.

Besides, it's not like RM's drawbacks mean there won't be any strategy involved in Naruto's fights. Quite the contrary actually. If he kept his kagebushin, then he could have just spammed it and owned everyone effortlessly. That wouldn't have made for very interesting fights. But here, he has to manage Kyuubi absorbing his chakra, probably by using sage mode inbetween two uses of rikudou mode. It means we're likely going to see some pretty creative combination of the two modes in battle, and it's cool.

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Old 12-11-2010, 09:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearzerger View Post
If you don't read it just shut up. Nothing you can say will be a worthwhile contribution to the thread



Didn't I adress this once before already with you. Plus and minus isn't yin and yang because for one the Kyuubi doesn't have any yin chakra since Yondaime sealed it and the Kyuubi didn't get it back over the years from Naruto either. There's no evidence, not even a hint of that happening and it would contradict Jiraiya's statement.
Second, there's no reason why Bee would refer to yin and yang by plus and minus. It's a needless complication. Kishi hasn't even explained yin and yang properly, why would he confuse the issue by suddenly calling it plus and minus.
Finally what white and black chakra does and has been doing whenever we saw a jinchuuriki or a bijuu fight doesn't fit to what we've heard about yin and yang.



I hesitate to predict how the next power up will look like when we don't yet know how the current one will. Once I've seen bijuu mode in action, then I'll be willing to make predictions about what SBM will be like.



That does sound quite possible, however usually Naruto only showcases one power up per fight. If Naruto's next fight is the one against Sasuke the power up he'll show off will be BM and not SBM
So you think that Kishi introduces 2 pair of duality chakras,Yin and Yang being one type then some other subtypes :Yang can be either + and -, same with Yin that can be either + and - ? That makes litle sense,Yin is refered to light,spiritual nature of things while Yang has black,physical nature.The reason why Naruto's Bijuu Rasengan got so heavy is because he used to much Yang/black/physical chakra and to litle Yin.This is the original concept of Yin and Yang. Why would Kyuubi geting back part of his Yin chakra from Naruto contradict the manga?
For example we saw back in part1 that chakra made mostly from spiritual energy with very litle physical energy seeks more physical energy to balance the other half. Yin and Yang always need to be in balance so Naruto's Yin chakra growing stronger in the presense of Kyuubi's Yang makes sense,we know that Kyuubi can devour some of Naruto's chakra to.

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Old 12-11-2010, 09:46 AM   #12
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Also to add to what RM can do, I'd like to see Naruto experiment with the chakra limbs thing.

Remember how KN4 was able to make limbs sprout out of limbs? Like he had four chakra claws against Orochimaru. He even made an entire second body made of chakra emerge from the original one. I'd like to see Naruto do something like that. Maybe create artificial bodies made of Kyuubi chakra without using Kagebushin, as a way to work around the drawback.

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Old 12-11-2010, 09:47 AM   #13
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I always love it how people jump to conclusions before we see what the character can do.
Then they go "ZOMG" when we see the character in action.

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Old 12-11-2010, 10:10 AM   #14
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Your really underestimating RM. While KB is no longer usable, neither Sasuke nor Madara will able to overpower Naruto in a close quarters fight. The whole point of RM is to give Naruto ridiculous amount of power so that he will no longer need assistance from Kage Bunshin. SM may give Naruto more variety, but that is all it really has over RM.

You saw what KN6 did to Pain. Naruto has nearly all of the Kyuubi's chakra. A taijutsu battle with RM is not really an option for them even if they have a sharingan. So both Sasuke and Madara will most likely depend on mid/long range attacks. Also the Menacing Ball has more power than any of Naruto's Rasengan varients, so it shouldn't really be an issue. We also don't know whether Naruto can use FRS in Rikudou Mode. It's better to wait and see.

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Old 12-11-2010, 10:56 AM   #15
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I think that this Biju rasengan is an overkill really. FRS can destroy on cellular/molecular lvl already. May be Naruto will use it to break Sasukes super EMS Susano but this is only a speculation.

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Old 12-11-2010, 11:05 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Corax View Post
I think that this Biju rasengan is an overkill really. FRS can destroy on cellular/molecular lvl already. May be Naruto will use it to break Sasukes super EMS Susano but this is only a speculation.
Yep, it's gonna be fucking overkill. It's gonna be a lot more powerful than FRS, which is already one of the most powerful moves in Narutoverse. Some might argue that Susano can defend against Biju Ball but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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Old 12-11-2010, 11:52 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by cbark42 View Post
Youre seriously underestimating the chakra arms man. Chakra arms >sharingan prediction, theyre fast, theyve got range, they can crush stone with ease, and i wouldnt be suprised if they can block attacks. And i dont think rm is that fast; he was fast because he used shunshin. It seems like he also used shunshin in sage mode against pain and he got way more distance out of that one. I dont really think that we'll get any more info on the - and + chakra. I always assumed that only the kyuubi had such a ridiculous defence.
Naruto could do the same with Senjutsu , they are invisible + they can one hit ko

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Old 12-11-2010, 12:48 PM   #18
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i predict naruto's ultimate final jutsu will be none other than:


(wait for it......)











MENACING BALL FUUTON RASENGAN SHURIKEN!!!!!!!!

you all know it's gonna happen.

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Old 12-11-2010, 01:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinjin long View Post
i predict naruto's ultimate final jutsu will be none other than:


(wait for it......)









MENACING BALL FUUTON RASENGAN SHURIKEN!!!!!!!!

you all know it's gonna happen.



I have a feeling that "that jutsu" is gonna be greater than anything we've ever seen. It might be even more powerful than Menacing FRS.

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Old 12-11-2010, 01:57 PM   #20
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Dude Bijuu Ball Rasegan is far superior to FRS. I think what were going to see for the time being is Naruto mixing up his Modes, IE he'll go to Base Mode and Sage Mode when he needs to use KB or attack with a deceptive technique like FRS or Natural Energy and he'll enter Bijuu Mode for powerful Raw Power attacks like Bijuu Ball Rasegan or to evade certain attacks with Shunshin no Jutsu. This is the way I see it

RM ~ Speed + Ultimate Attack
SM ~ Physical Strength + Versatility

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