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Old 12-08-2010, 01:42 AM   #1
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Default Why Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi; clarifying Tsukuyomi and Susanoo

There's been some ongoing debate about whether MS Sasuke had Tsukuyomi the jutsu (this of course doesn't address EMS Sasuke since he should have Itachi's powers now). This thread is to prove that he did not display the jutsu for what it's known by. Address the arguments brought up in this thread if you feel differently; don't just regurgitate things that have already been addressed and I will address what you say. Now let's start off.

First, what is Tsukuyomi?:
People don't realize that there is actually an OFFICIAL description on what this jutsu is meant to do. This is what Tsukuyomi is according to both the databook and according to the manga (look at what I bolded or underlined):

Databook 2: tsukuyomi entry translation by Gottheim:

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47905
Quote:
NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!

-The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.

Picture comments

-The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they've never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world's principles themselves obey the caster's beck and call.

-Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.

-Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?

-The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.

*阿鼻叫喚 (abikyoukan) translates as "agonizing cries", or "pandemonium". It's also a specific name for a couple of hellish realms in Buddhism. Try Wikipedia or Onmark Productions for better info.


Tsukuyomi according to Itachi:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/143/17


Quote:
Originally Posted by Itachi
Within the realm of Tsukuyomi...space...time...everything...is under my control


Tsukuyomi according to Kakashi:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/258/8


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakashi
He uses an eye jutsu that surpasses the original Sharingan, the "Mangekyou Sharingan". If you are struck by that eye jutsu, his genjutsu can affect you in an instant. There is no cancelling the effects of it.


Tsukuyomi according to Danzou:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/479/3

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/479/4


Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzou
I'll commend you for actually trapping me in an illusion. However...
~
Compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, where he could alter your perception of time at his whim...you're as far below him as the land is below the sky.
note: Sasuke's "illusion" compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, not Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" compared to Itachi's.



So what we can conclude from this regardless of your general position on whether he has tsukuyomi or not is that Sasuke does not possess the defining characteristic of the jutsu. According to databook, and all manga instances from credible sources, the defining characteristics of Tsukuyomi is that it happens in an instant due to the control of space and time. This is a fact as it is backed up by every evidence in the manga. There is nothing else that distinguishes Tsukuyomi from other genjutsu besides that characteristic.

This of course naturally leads up to the following argument: isn't Tsukuyomi required for Susanoo? We need to understand what the jutsu is first.

To be continued-

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Old 12-08-2010, 01:44 AM   #2
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Now, what is Susanoo?:

According to the databook 3 entry:

Quote:
NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none

Main text

There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. The materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.

Captions

-In the pupils that grasp the principles behind Heaven and Earth, dwells the valorous sword-wielding, shield-bearing Aragami***!!

-Protecting its caster, it destroys the enemy!

-In its left and right hands are held the unparalleled, wondrous Sacred Treasures* of virtues miraculous.

Picture comments

-Only those who have carried mastery of Mangekyou Sharingan - the doujutsu feared by those around it as the strongest - to its extremes will come onto the god's territory. A guardian deity to its caster, it eats away their life at the same time.

-The sake flowing out of the gourd assumes the shape of a sword, becoming the Totsuka! In addition, the souls absorbed by it are sealed there.

-The Sword of Totsuka
One swing of the Sword of Kusanagi* has the power to throw the people it stabs into an genjutsu world of intoxicating dreams, and seal them away for eternity. The sword itself carries a fuuinjutsu.

-The Mirror of Yata
The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpo...16&postcount=1


And according to Itachi on how he got Susanoo:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/393/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itachi
The third and final technique, along with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, that awoke within these eyes on that fateful day



according to the databook description, Susanoo is only activated once Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are awakened. According to Itachi, all three techniques awoke in his Mangekyou when he killed Shisui.

However, also according to the description, Susanoo must come with Totsuka blade and Yata mirror, two legendary spiritual items which Itachi obtained.

The databook is the only piece of evidence people are using to say that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi (due to the Susanoo requirement). So for those who say that he has Tsukuyomi according to the databook must also acknowledge every mastered MS user and Sasuke also have the legendary spiritual items.

If one believes in the latter statement then we agree to disagree. If not, then here's more supporting the argument on why it only applies to Itachi:

Reasons why that databook description of Susanoo only applies to Itachi and not any other MS user:

There are different versions of Susanoo:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/477/7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madara
Wow...that's Sasuke's version, eh?


-Sasuke's version utilizes the bow/shield and uses arrows in its incomplete form
-Itachi's version uses the spiritual items, even in its incomplete form (used the Yata mirror to block the exploding tags)

Sasuke never said he unlocked Tsukuyomi, or that it was required for his Susanoo:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/465/17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasuke
A power that only someone who's awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan in both eyes can wield
...
The third and final ability, Susanoo!


Sasuke's "designated" MS abilities are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi:

According to Sasuke:

http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/416/10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasuke
I stopped them.... I stopped the black flames of Amaterasu...! Is this what the Mangekyou Sharingan is capable of?


-Chapter 415 was entitled "A New Power". The ending side-text of the chapter says "Sasuke obtains a new power."

According to Shii:


http://ani-haven.net/hr-alpha/Naruto/465/8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shii
His left eye creates Amaterasu, and his right allows him to use shape manipulation on the black flames.


-The only times when MS powers for each eye were named, they were called Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu. There was never an instance of one of his three powers being Tsukuyomi.
-While Itachi can put out the black flames which is a small partial aspect of Kagutsuchi, he does not possess the ability to actually spatially manipulate them which is the jutsu's core function.



In conclusion, for those who tl;dr, here's the concise summary:

1) By definition, Tsukuyomi lasts for an instant as its ability is the control over space and time. This is what separates it from other genjutsu. Something called "Tsukuyomi" which doesn't have that feature is like having a fire that's not hot.
2)The Susanoo definition found in the databook 3 only applies to Itachi. The reasons for this are:
-there are different versions of Susanoo as stated by Madara
-Sasuke's three Mangekyou powers specifically designated as such are Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi (manipulation of the black flames), and Susanoo.
-Sasuke himself never said Tsukuyomi was in his arsenal, or even necessary to create Susanoo. That was strictly Itachi.

2a) For those who argue that Tsukuyomi is required for Susanoo, must also believe that all mastered MS users and Sasuke all have the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror as it is stated by the databook.

Most important point for those who disagree and must address in their counterpoint:

Tsukuyomi's defining characteristic is that it lasts for an instant as it controls space and time for the victim. It is confirmed Sasuke does not have that defining characteristic (though he can cast 'stronger' genjutsu via his MS). Kagutsuchi's defining characteristic is that it allows spatial control of the black flames. It is confirmed that Itachi does not have that defining characteristic (though he can stop the flames via his MS).

Can you claim that Sasuke and Itachi possess those techniques if they lack what sets them apart as techniques?

Looking forward to hearing responses.

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Old 12-08-2010, 01:47 AM   #3
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Tsukuyumi is a jutsu that had up until recently only been seen as Itachi's tsukuyumi. Danzou himself said that itachi's was superior, which means that it would able to be used in more wide, varying ways. The same way that sasuke amaterasu is superior to his brothers, shape manipulation and willfully extinguishable. Doese that mean itachi doesnt have amaterasu? Further more it appears as if the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS regardless of who unlocks it.

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Old 12-08-2010, 01:48 AM   #4
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lolz Reading comprehension FTW Yes Sasuke does have Tsukiyomi as its stated in the 3rd DB that you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susanoo but that doesent mean his Tsukiyomi is the same as Itachi's,Sasuke's Tsukiyomi lacks the space/time altering aspect but its still Tsukiyomi.

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Old 12-08-2010, 01:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by †_Camorra_† View Post
lolz Reading comprehension FTW Yes Sasuke does have Tsukiyomi as its stated in the 3rd DB that you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susanoo but that doesent mean his Tsukiyomi is the same as Itachi's,Sasuke's Tsukiyomi lacks the space/time altering aspect but its still Tsukiyomi.
Exactly this

Also I would say tsukiyomi doesn't effect space and time, but rather the minds perception of these things, which really is only more example of Itachi's heavy skill set in genjutsu.

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Old 12-08-2010, 01:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagami_ View Post
2a) For those who argue that Tsukuyomi is required for Susanoo, must also believe that all mastered MS users and Sasuke all have the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror as it is stated by the databook.
Didn't read it but felt I had to address this.

The Totsuka and Yata mirror aren't Susanoo exclusive items. Oro was looking for the sword all his life as stated IIRC. That means that the sword exist outside of Susanoo. Somehow Itachi acquired it and equipped his Susanoo with it.

Believing Sasuke has Tsukuyomi doesn't make it so that every Susanoo has the items.

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sazon uchiha View Post
Tsukuyumi is a jutsu that had up until recently only been seen as Itachi's tsukuyumi. Danzou himself said that itachi's was superior, which means that it would able to be used in more wide, varying ways. The same way that sasuke amaterasu is superior to his brothers, shape manipulation and willfully extinguishable. Doese that mean itachi doesnt have amaterasu? Further more it appears as if the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS regardless of who unlocks it.
No. Madara for one knows the mechanics of the jutsu seeing as how he plans on subjecting the world to Mugen Tsukuyomi. Also, there is no proof that the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS users. Where does Kakashi's Kamui come from and where is his Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?

What Danzou said was addressed. He never compared Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" to Itachi's. He compared Sasuke's "illusion" to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. 2 big differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by †_Camorra_† View Post
lolz Reading comprehension FTW Yes Sasuke does have Tsukiyomi as its stated in the 3rd DB that you need both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to awaken Susanoo but that doesent mean his Tsukiyomi is the same as Itachi's,Sasuke's Tsukiyomi lacks the space/time altering aspect but its still Tsukiyomi.
Alright, I'll take you seriously for once and take the bait.

What is a Tsukuyomi without space/time altering aspect then? What sets it apart from other genjutsu without that aspect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrito View Post
Didn't read it but felt I had to address this.

The Totsuka and Yata mirror aren't Susanoo exclusive items. Oro was looking for the sword all his life as stated IIRC. That means that the sword exist outside of Susanoo. Somehow Itachi acquired it and equipped his Susanoo with it.

Believing Sasuke has Tsukuyomi doesn't make it so that every Susanoo has the items.
No, this was addressed. The only "evidence" that one has that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi is the databook. However the same databook says that Susanoo comes with the legendary items. If not every Susanoo comes with the legendary items, then the databook description does not apply.

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:09 AM   #8
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I thought this was common knowledge.

however +rep

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:14 AM   #9
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Tsukuyomi+Amaterasu=Susanoo

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagami_ View Post
No. Madara for one knows the mechanics of the jutsu seeing as how he plans on subjecting the world to Mugen Tsukuyomi. Also, there is no proof that the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS users. Where does Kakashi's Kamui come from and where is his Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu?

What Danzou said was addressed. He never compared Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" to Itachi's. He compared Sasuke's "illusion" to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. 2 big differences.



Alright, I'll take you seriously for once and take the bait.

What is a Tsukuyomi without space/time altering aspect then? What sets it apart from other genjutsu without that aspect?



No, this was addressed. The only "evidence" that one has that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi is the databook. However the same databook says that Susanoo comes with the legendary items. If not every Susanoo comes with the legendary items, then the databook description does not apply.
Tsukiyomi without the space/time altering aspect still can paralyze the victim and give the caster total control over it,when Itachi usess Tsukiyomi he has total control over the genjutsu realm for 72h ,when Sasuke usess Tsukiyomi on Bee he controls the realm for 2secs,enough to paralyze Bee temporary. Thats the difference.

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagami_ View Post

What Danzou said was addressed. He never compared Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" to Itachi's. He compared Sasuke's "illusion" to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. 2 big differences.


Danzou is addressing tsukuyomi as what it is, a high level of genjutsu. We have seen no evidence that this justsu actually has any effect on space and time. Rather instead it appears to shock the victims brain and alter their sense of such things. As the time spent there doesn't not actually pass but rather it only appears to do so. That would make it an illusion, which Itachi was more skilled at then sasuke.

You also didn't address my amaterasu example in comparison to your own.

I also believe I said that Itachi is the only person people have seen using tsukuyomi, in no way did I imply that no one else could, and as such madara having unlocked MS would of course know how to use, having used it in the past.

Further more Kakashi's variant of MS was unlocked through unique unknown circumstances that have not been explained. Where as Madara, Itachi and sasuke have all awakened theirs under the same circumstances making them of the same type.
Also realize that this is a blood line trait which means it will occur the same way in each individual, only its certain aspects can be greater depending on who it is thats using it. Again Sasuke's amatarasu when compared to his brother shows this. As well as the comparison of their tsukuyomi's.
Then there is the fact that databook is cannon(so i've herd) which you cant argue against, not matter how little sense it makes.

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
wen Sasuke usess Tsukiyomi on Bee he controls the realm for 2secs




Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique (魔幻・枷杭の術, Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu)
Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
Users: Uchiha Itachi, Uchiha Sasuke

A make-believe yoke piercing the limbs and body, completely snatching away one's freedom to move!! Once caught in the mind world created by the user, the victim will be tormented with the sensation of having wedges driven through their limbs, completely taking away their body's freedom. At the same time, the physical pain accompanying the illusion reveals the great use this technique has for primarily torture and such.


for who don't know what tsukiyomi is


Quote:
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
Quote:

Tsukuyomi+Amaterasu=Susanoo

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfff View Post
Spoiler:



Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique (魔幻・枷杭の術, Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu)
Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
Users: Uchiha Itachi, Uchiha Sasuke

A make-believe yoke piercing the limbs and body, completely snatching away one's freedom to move!! Once caught in the mind world created by the user, the victim will be tormented with the sensation of having wedges driven through their limbs, completely taking away their body's freedom. At the same time, the physical pain accompanying the illusion reveals the great use this technique has for primarily torture and such.


for who don't know what tsukiyomi is
lol Wat? Itachi's Tsukiyomi is the same fuccing thing but it lasts 72h. and not 2secs.

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfff View Post



Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique (魔幻・枷杭の術, Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu)
Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
Users: Uchiha Itachi, Uchiha Sasuke

A make-believe yoke piercing the limbs and body, completely snatching away one's freedom to move!! Once caught in the mind world created by the user, the victim will be tormented with the sensation of having wedges driven through their limbs, completely taking away their body's freedom. At the same time, the physical pain accompanying the illusion reveals the great use this technique has for primarily torture and such.


for who don't know what tsukiyomi is
Lol all your post is proving is that Itachi is more skilled with Tsukuyomi not that sasuke doesn't have it

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:33 AM   #15
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^
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Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
.............

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:37 AM   #16
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Judecious, you didn't even read it.

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Originally Posted by †_Camorra_† View Post
Tsukiyomi without the space/time altering aspect still can paralyze the victim and give the caster total control over it,when Itachi usess Tsukiyomi he has total control over the genjutsu realm for 72h ,when Sasuke usess Tsukiyomi on Bee he controls the realm for 2secs,enough to paralyze Bee temporary. Thats the difference.
First to address your last point, Sasuke never displayed any time-controlling in any of his genjutsu. He didn't have the ability.

Secondly, there's something called a Kaneshibari genjutsu which is what you just described. That is not a characteristic of Tsukuyomi. Look up what it is or I'll post it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sazon uchiha View Post
Danzou is addressing tsukuyomi as what it is, a high level of genjutsu. We have seen no evidence that this justsu actually has any effect on space and time. Rather instead it appears to shock the victims brain and alter their sense of such things. As the time spent there doesn't not actually pass but rather it only appears to do so. That would make it an illusion, which Itachi was more skilled at then sasuke.
You're kidding right?

Tsukuyomi passes by in an instant while the victim's sense of time is controlled by the user. That is a defining characteristic of Tsukuyomi. read the databook page or the other examples which I posted in the first post on what it is. The reason WHY Tsukuyomi can't be broken via a partner or other such means is because of this very aspect. An aspect which Sasuke does not have.

If he does not have that DEFINING ASPECT, then how can you say he has Tsukuyomi?

Quote:
You also didn't address my amaterasu example in comparison to your own.
I didn't address it or you didn't read the OP which already addresses that here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by my op
Tsukuyomi's defining characteristic is that it lasts for an instant as it controls space and time for the victim. It is confirmed Sasuke does not have that defining characteristic (though he can cast 'stronger' genjutsu via his MS). Kagutsuchi's defining characteristic is that it allows spatial control of the black flames. It is confirmed that Itachi does not have that defining characteristic (though he can stop the flames via his MS).

Can you claim that Sasuke and Itachi possess those techniques if they lack what sets them apart as techniques?
Quote:
I also believe I said that Itachi is the only person people have seen using tsukuyomi, in no way did I imply that no one else could, and as such madara having unlocked MS would of course know how to use, having used it in the past.
But the problem is that the defining aspect of Tsukuyomi is the control of space/time in that genjutsu dimension, as is proven in the manga and databook. So again, what makes a tsukuyomi that doesn't have that defining aspect?

Quote:
Further more Kakashi's variant of MS was unlocked through unique unknown circumstances that have not been explained. Where as Madara, Itachi and sasuke have all awakened theirs under the same circumstances making them of the same type.
Also realize that this is a blood line trait which means it will occur the same way in each individual, only its certain aspects can be greater depending on who it is thats using it. Again Sasuke's amatarasu when compared to his brother shows this. As well as the comparison of their tsukuyomi's.
You're trying to obfuscate the point and making justifications here when your post was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by you
Further more it appears as if the same three jutsu are unlocked for all MS regardless of who unlocks it.
And Sasuke's amaterasu is no different from Itachi's. Its just that Sasuke has Kagutsuchi which is a different jutsu from amaterasu which allows him to control the flames.

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Then there is the fact that databook is cannon(so i've herd) which you cant argue against, not matter how little sense it makes.
The manga itself holds more clout, and I addressed the databook already. And I believe you also think Sasuke has the legendary weapons then as well?

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:48 AM   #17
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The defining aspects used in this thread address only Itachi using it as if Itachi was the only character able to use it. He is very good at using it and Sasuke isn't, that doesn't mean sasuke doesn't have the tech. Also tsukoyomi extending time is all part of the illusion, note the key word here, illusion, somthing Itachi was notably good at so of course he can extend it longer periods then Sasuke as he was always the more gifted of the two at this. Also Itachi's tech doese not last longer, only appears to from the perspective of the person it is being used on. Learn genjutsu means, there is no space time involved in an illusion

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:55 AM   #18
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Tsukiyomi without the ability to control time within it is like saying that you can shoot katons without fire.

No fire = no katon

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Old 12-08-2010, 02:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by asdfff View Post
Spoiler:



Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique (魔幻・枷杭の術, Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu)
Genjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
Users: Uchiha Itachi, Uchiha Sasuke

A make-believe yoke piercing the limbs and body, completely snatching away one's freedom to move!! Once caught in the mind world created by the user, the victim will be tormented with the sensation of having wedges driven through their limbs, completely taking away their body's freedom. At the same time, the physical pain accompanying the illusion reveals the great use this technique has for primarily torture and such.
Are you saying that genjutsu was Shackling Stakes?

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...5/page009.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...5/page010.html

That's Shackling Stakes, it was used on chapter 345 by Itachi and Sasuke against Orochimaru.

People assume genjutsu you displayed was Tsukuyomi because it required the Mangekyo to preform it, and it briefly caused pain to his right eye (which is assumed to be the eye able to cast Tsukuyomi, for the left is the eye he uses for Amaterasu).

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Old 12-08-2010, 03:02 AM   #20
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@sazon,

You have a profoundly different understanding of what we're talking about here. That "time-extending" aspect is exactly the point that's being discussed here. You're seeming to have some issue with the definition of tsukuyomi being a "space/time" control issue, but what you need to understand is that the description applies to the genjutsu world.

What's being talked about here is that Tsukuyomi -by its very definition- controls the perception of a victim's time and reality while an instant passes by in the real world.

So, a Tsukuyomi could make a victim feel whatever for a countless amount of time while only an instant passes by in the real world.

However a standard genjutsu works IN REAL TIME. Meaning that if someone is in a genjutsu for 5 minutes, then 5 minutes also passes in the real world. For Tsukuyomi, those 5 minutes would pass by in an instant in the real world.

That is the power of Tsukuyomi. That is what sets it apart from other genjutsu.

yet you're telling me that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi when he lacks the ability to do its intended function (the very thing that sets it apart from other genjutsu)? Tell me exactly what a Tsukuyomi without the time/space alteration on the victim's part is? What sets it apart from other genjutsu?

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