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Old 08-06-2008, 01:19 AM   #1
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Default The Official Narusaku/SasuSaku/Naruhina Debate Thread! (SPOILERS)

Stay out of the thread if you are not here to debate!
There is a thread where people with different pairing preferences can go and discuss other issues called the Asylum: http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=308722 or there is also the Pairing Peace FC. Also, you will no longer have to tag manga. This thread is supposed to be based on the manga canon. Still be aware of rule #5 regarding latest chapters spoilers.


Rules


1. This thread is for debating about NaruHina, NaruSaku, and SasuSaku only.

Do not bring up other pairings in here (not even NaruSasu/SasuNaru).

Do not bring up fanfiction in here.

Do not bring up fanart in here.

Do not bring up fillers in here.

Do not bring up theories in here.

Do not use this thread as your own soapbox.

Do not double post or triple post unless your argument doesn't fit in one post.

The canon evidence is the only thing that matters so stick to that when debating.

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost...&postcount=926


http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost...&postcount=921

2. Spamming is not tolerated

This includes responses like the following:

"*insert spam here*"

"On-topic: Sakura "

"I think it will be Tonton. "

"This will be interesting..."



Also mentions of orgies derail the thread so we can't allow that.

If we see any of this your posts will be deleted and if we notice a habit we will slash your post count.

Do not link to essays or any other NF thread links in your reply to posts, if you have something to say in response to another post, please post your thoughts, but just no one-liners. Put some depth into your posts.

3. No flaming

This is really a no brainer. Attack the argument, not the person. If we see this you will be banned. If you continue to repeat the actions you will probably just be section banned from the HoU for a long time.

This also includes attacking an entire fandom for their preference.

The same goes for anyone who is trolling.

4. Any and all threads made on this subject from here on out will be merged with this one, locked, recycled and/or trashed depending on the situation.

This means do not create another thread on the matter. This will make for a very annoyed mod. Some may be nice and others may be ruthless depending on who sees the other thread.

5. Any spoilers from Telegrams that are posted in here before the Monday after chapter release is automatic 1 day ban.This includes hinting.


This is the first warning for everyone. Failure to adhere to these rules will result in unfavorable punishments.

Alright, this thread and each incarnation shall be archived after every 100 pages. Things always seem to degrade more frequently after a certain point. It also helps for other things that I won't mention. If this thread gets spammed again, it might be trashed again before it reaches 100 pages.

Also since the people can't seem to play nicely you will just be outright banned if we see your nonsense. Each ban will be longer than the last until people get the freaking point.

Have at it.


Archived threads:

http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=308080
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=407131
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=480865
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=511694


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Old 06-17-2009, 12:25 PM   #2
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Spoiler:
It crossed my mind today that this thread should also add Sasukarin to the mix. While Naruto and Sakura have spent a lot of time together, Karin also has spent time with Sasuke (although to a much lesser degree than Narusaku). Nevertheless, I'm amazed no one has pointed out that even if Sakura is still interested in Sasuke the way she used to (highly unlikely), she would have Karin as her competition. It would be just like Sakura vs Ino in part 1. Foreseeing that both teams will eventually meet/clash, I can see Sakura seeing Karin as her old former self (immature, clingy, and obsessed). This just adds to my belief of why Sasusaku is the most least likely out of all the possible parings to happen at this point while Narusaku is the most likely.


Last edited by Hiro; 06-18-2009 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:13 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NarutoIzDaMan View Post
Spoiler:
It crossed my mind today that this thread should also add Sasukarin to the mix.
I don't think so. It gets complicated enough with three pairings. Really it's only two, because we haven't heard from any SasuSaku shippers at all, as far as I can recall.

Spoiler:
I still can't get over how the NaruHina shippers had to eat their own words. I told them how Naruto felt about Hinata would not be addressed anytime soon, certainly not right when he returned. It's going to be dragged out for a lo-o-o-ong time.


Last edited by Hiro; 06-18-2009 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:23 PM   #4
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Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forlong View Post
I don't think so. It gets complicated enough with three pairings. Really it's only two, because we haven't heard from any SasuSaku shippers at all, as far as I can recall.

Spoiler:
I still can't get over how the NaruHina shippers had to eat their own words. I told them how Naruto felt about Hinata would not be addressed anytime soon, certainly not right when he returned. It's going to be dragged out for a lo-o-o-ong time.
Agreed about SasuKarin. There are too many already, and really we haven't seen much interaction between them.

Spoiler:
And yes, Forlong you are right about eating words. I can't deny I was very disappointed by the arrival of Naruto at the village. To be fair, though, those that said Hinata would remain unimportant and that she was essentially dead after Pain's bit had to eat their words also.


Last edited by Hiro; 06-18-2009 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afalstein View Post
Agreed about SasuKarin. There are too many already, and really we haven't seen much interaction between them.

Spoiler:
And yes, Forlong you are right about eating words. I can't deny I was very disappointed by the arrival of Naruto at the village. To be fair, though, those that said Hinata would remain unimportant and that she was essentially dead after Pain's bit had to eat their words also.
And how would those people be eating their words, if they were right?

Spoiler:
Nothing happened since Hinata's confession.

Naruto didn't talk to Hinata, nor shown signs of concern for her before his final confrontation with Pain.

But as soon as Naruto returns to the village in victory, instead of Hinata greeting him, it was Sakura. On top of it, she gave him a hug (and a possible kiss on the cheek). Showing the first real signs of anykind of real affection from her with Naruto.

Which goes nicely with what Shikaku said to Shikamaru regarding how women are gentle to the ones they love. (In which was heavily laughed at by those opposed to the NaruSaku fandom. )

All while Hinata watched with approval. (So because she was there, didn't make her "important").


Last edited by Hiro; 06-18-2009 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrannos View Post
And how would those people be eating their words, if they were right?

Spoiler:
Nothing happened since Hinata's confession.

Naruto didn't talk to Hinata, nor shown signs of concern for her before his final confrontation with Pain.

But as soon as Naruto returns to the village in victory, instead of Hinata greeting him, it was Sakura. On top of it, she gave him a hug (and a possible kiss on the cheek). Showing the first real signs of anykind of real affection from her with Naruto.

Which goes nicely with what Shikaku said to Shikamaru regarding how women are gentle to the ones they love. (In which was heavily laughed at by those opposed to the NaruSaku fandom. )

All while Hinata watched with approval. (So because she was there, didn't make her "important").
Spoiler:

You mean watched in approval of Naruto being acknowledged?

Because that's how I saw it. But I guess it could be interpreted in different ways by many.

Quote:
and a possible kiss on the cheek
Spoiler:
Is that one of your theories? I don't remember Kishi including a "kiss" in that chapter.


Quote:
Spoiler:
Nothing happened since Hinata's confession.
Spoiler:
I beg to differ, naruto mentioned and thought about her after his kyuubi-rage moment


Last edited by Hiro; 06-18-2009 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Spoilers must be tagged in the HoU
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr View Post
Spoiler:
You mean watched in approval of Naruto being acknowledged?

Because that's how I saw it. But I guess it could be interpreted in different ways by many.
Spoiler:
But it doesn't mean Hinata's more important in that moment than the others who were also acknowledging Naruto.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr View Post
Spoiler:
Is that one of your theories? I don't remember Kishi including a "kiss" in that chapter.
Spoiler:
Making this personal aren't you? Especially over a "possible" kiss?

Either way, Sakura was hugging Naruto and NOT Hinata-hime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr View Post
Spoiler:
I beg to differ, naruto mentioned and thought about her after his kyuubi-rage moment
Spoiler:
Convenient that you purposely ignore the rest of what I said.

Quote:
Naruto didn't talk to Hinata, nor shown signs of concern for her before his final confrontation with Pain.
Notice I said "BEFORE"? So I wasn't purposely ignoring the moments Naruto is thinking of Hinata.

And BTW, last I checked Naruto was concerned because he went Kyuubi next to her and thinking he tore her a new one. Not him thinking about out of "love".


Last edited by Tyrannos; 06-17-2009 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:40 PM   #8
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Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr View Post
I beg to differ, naruto mentioned and thought about her after his kyuubi-rage moment
Spoiler:
Including the rest of the villagers. She was likely singled out because she was the last person he saw before going Kyuubi.


Last edited by Hiro; 06-18-2009 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:12 PM   #9
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Spoiler:
I think it was definitely more important that Kishimoto showed that Naruto was acknowledged by his village ABOVE any depiction of a love triangle. Love and romance... is for shojou manga... this is a shonen manga. Do guys care about love? Well of course they do, it's just that in terms of shonen manga, things like pride and self-worth are placed above romance... as well as it should, for guys and for girls really.

I don't see why Hinata watching in approval of Sakura hugging Naruto indicates anything about her affection for Naruto. She's happy about him being acknowledged by his peers, and at the moment despite all pairing debates that is all that these three, are... they're peers. Maybe we'll call them friends. Sakura and Naruto are definitely friends, I would think... Naruto and Hinata?

Would you say that Naruto and Hinata are friends? I would say they have a mutual respect of cohorts relationship. And note, respect, not love. Naruto respected Hinata's perseverance during the chuunin exams. Hinata of course, respects and extremely admires Naruto's same perseverance and generally sunny disposition and ability to overcome odds. They get along, and he certainly hasn't shown any sign of acute dislike... aside from calling her wierd, but then he said he liked that... lol

Would you say that Naruto and Sakura are friends? Well with or without the fillers, this would be a yes. They have been on the same team through many trials and tribulations. They have come to some sort of understanding of each other, or at least a deeper understanding than before when they started out. They care about each other and support each other through goals. This is definitely a friend relationship. Is it more than that? Well Sakura certainly appreciates that Naruto thinks of her as a girl to some extent. Whether that appreciation extends to a desire for a more personal relationship is still uncertain. She might be heading towards that direction...

From the standpoint of evidence from the manga, it seems to currently stand at this: Naruto and Sakura... friends, might be more if developed further. Naruto and Hinata... friendly associates who respect each other as ninja and in terms of one party admires a lot.

From my standpoint, in terms of a shonen manga kind of romantic relationship, you should expect it to some degree, increase the feeling of pride, and general self-worth of the individuals participating.

Naruto would benefit Hinata. She looks up to him, and respects his thoughts and opinions. In a relationship he would encourage her to be more assertive and remain steady on decisions, like he did during the chuunin exams. In the future, if Hinata does become a true head of the Hyuuga clan, she'll need someone like Naruto who encourages her to stick to what she believes and supports her in the face of opposition. He'd be real gung-ho about it too. Also, from what I can see, she needs protection more than Sakura. She's a good ninja, don't get me wrong, but she didn't get that humongous jump from a rather pathetic girly-girl ninja to this awesome super-powered medical nin.

From the standpoint of evidence from the manga, it seems to currently stand at this: Naruto and Sakura... friends, might be more if developed further. Naruto and Hinata... friendly associates who respect each other as ninja and in terms of one party admires a lot. Might become more if Naruto comes to reciprocate these feelings of admiration and act on them.


Last edited by AuxunauxiaNoname; 09-03-2009 at 09:46 PM. Reason: Spoilers must be tagged in the HoU
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunaun View Post
Spoiler:
Sakura hugged because she was worried and Hinata was far from the distance as well. Theres nothing intimate about a public hug from a dear friend.
Spoiler:
... There's nothing intimate about it?


When has Sakura ever openly shown affection for Naruto? You don't have to see it as someting romantic, but to say it was not intimate on any kind of level is, in my honest opinion, fucking stupid.

Don't confuse intimacy with romance, because they are NOT the same thing.

It's common knowledge - or it should be, anyway - that open displays of physical affections aren't very common in Japan. You might ask why, and I'll simply tell you because it's intimate, especially when two people of opposite genders do it.

That's why everyone in the background is caught by surprise when Sakura hugs Naruto. It's not common, and it's quite a personal moment between them.


Quote:
Wasn't Hinata gentle when she gave Naruto healing cream and encouraged him against Neji, doesn't Shikaku's words aplly when she forced herself to get involved with Pain. Wasn't that the roughness Shikaki was talking about.
Shikaku was likely referencing his wife as an example, so given the context of he speech, no, his words don't apply to Hinata.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/172/08/

She isn't rough or tough to her interest. She's passive and accepting. She doesn't scold him or speak her mind about his embarrassing behavior. Or, she likely wouldn't.

On the other hand, Sakura has the qualities of a "tsundere". It's debatable whether or not she is one, but she shares the common traits of one nonetheless. She's often very tough on Naruto, but she has her moments in which she's "gentle" with him. The most recent manga chapter is a fairly good example. Like I said, though, you can interpret that as you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuxunauxiaNoname View Post
Naruto would benefit Hinata.
... Why isn't it a mutual benefit?

Quote:
Also, from what I can see, she needs protection more than Sakura. She's a good ninja, don't get me wrong, but she didn't get that humongous jump from a rather pathetic girly-girl ninja to this awesome super-powered medical nin.
... Hinata is a kunoichi. She has the greatest potential of becoming something great simply because of the family she's from. Just because she has a rathe submissive and passive personality doesn't mean she'll be a damself in her own inflicted distress or any other kind of distress for long. Give her a chance to develop some, to prove herself some, and I'm sure that lack of faith she has in her abilities will be transformed into something akin to arrogance. Of course, this is all speculation, so this can probably be dismissed. It just bothered me.

Also, how can one initiate a romantic reationship by reciprocating admiraton?


Last edited by Crackers; 06-18-2009 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:20 PM   #11
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@AuxunauxiaNoname

Not going to copy the whole of your post, but excellent stuff. I agree with most of what you said and consider your appraisal of the relationships to be accurate. The one amendment I have is that I think Hinata loves Naruto (or at the very least thinks she loves Naruto). But that is, perhaps, a minor point.

@CNets

I think you're misunderstanding KittenLou's use of the word "intimate." But I'll have to wait for a response to be sure, I suppose.



Quote:
Spoiler:
... There's nothing intimate about it?

When has Sakura ever openly shown affection for Naruto? You don't have to see it as someting romantic, but to say it was not intimate on any kind of level is, in my honest opinion, fucking stupid.

Don't confuse intimacy with romance, because they are NOT the same thing.

It's common knowledge - or it should be, anyway - that open displays of physical affections aren't very common in Japan. You might ask why, and I'll simply tell you because it's intimate, especially when two people of opposite genders do it.

That's why everyone in the background is caught by surprise when Sakura hugs Naruto. It's not common, and it's quite a personal moment between them.
Spoiler:
Yes and no. I'm not going to pretend the moment isn't important, but I don't think it's nearly as important as you're making it to be.

First of all, although it's undeniably more affection than Sakura has ever shown Naruto, it's not exactly a personal moment. It's much more communal, the entire village is there. Now I'm not saying that Sakura is hugging him "on behalf of the village" but I am saying that the hug fits more generally in the "acknowledged by everyone" goal of Naruto.

Sakura has been the harshest of Naruto's critics among the Konoha 11. Granted, she's also been a freind who has trust in Naruto, but she's harder on him than any of the others. Even here, she punches him for being a reckless fool. But this is the moment when she openly shows gratitude.

See, if this was meant as such a personal moment, I'd expect some close-ups of Naruto and Sakura (aside from the hug itself). Maybe a few thought bubbles showing Naruto's surprise. But it's followed by pictures of everyone from the village. It's put in a much more communal as opposed to intimate setting.

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Old 06-18-2009, 08:15 PM   #12
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Ah! Anime romances. They're always filled with opening thunder that amounts to nothing. That's what makes them frankly frustrating to read sometimes. Naruto and Hinata are definitely up there for well written romantic set ups that seem to be dropped several pages later. The Naruto vs Negi build up starts with Naruto holding up a fist full of Hinata's blood. They have a moment together before the big fight but she's doesn't actually get to witness Naruto's victory. Naruto and Negi have a profound moment together after the battle but Hinata, who was the catalyst is all but left out. He scans the crowd for her but they don't share a after moment together,not even a look, that closes the whole thing out. Instead it's on to the next story thread. The Pain fight was a real let down. Again the set up is perfect. Hinata dives into the fray to defend the man she loves and finally confesses her feelings for him. Naruto upon believing she is killed goes six tails. This isn't a gradual tansformation but an instant explosion of rage. Naruto has a moment when resealed that he thinks of Hinata but then it's back to main story line. It was set up so beautifully down to the paper roses that Konan presents to Naruto when the battle ends. Yet what happens? Naruto returns to Konoha( Flowers now missing),Sees that Hinata is alive, and Nothing! He has a little moment with Sakura but even she makes the statement aloud when trying to save her life the Hinata is in love with Naruto. I just personally feel that this is the one instance where the writing(which is brilliant) falls short and I was very dissapointed by it. Naruto returns triumphantly as the hero of Konoha, finally aknowledged by all as a great ninja yet the person who aknowledged him before anyone else, has always believed in him, who joined in the battle when everyone else took cover, and almost died for him is left as a face in the crowd. What I would have liked to have seen instead of Sakura running out to Naruto is Sakura lead Hinata up to Naruto so he could see she was alive, Naruto give her the bouquet that Konan gave to him, and let them have a moment together at the end that matches the moment on the battlefield with Pain. In fact Naruto should have planted a kiss on her but that's just me.
Almost all the relationships in "Naruto" are mirror reflections of other relationships. Naruto, Sakura, & Sasuke are the similar to those of the Sannin. The threads get even deeper. Naruto is both Jiraiya and Tsunade's little brother. Naruto's adopted siblings are Sakura & Sasuke. Naruto and Sakura's relationship is one of a brother and a more mature sister. When it comes to Sakura & Sasuke I have to wonder if there is something still untold about Tsunade and Orochimaru's relationship to one another. So where does Hinata fit in to the web of reflections. Though she has only been shown briefly there is a character that stands out, Uzumaki Kushina. Kushina is said to have been a Tomboy when she was young so she was akward like Hinata but in a different way. They were both late bloomers. She also appears to have been an incredibly gentle person. If Naruto & Sakura's relationship is a reflection of Jiraiya & Tsunade then perhaps Naruto & Hinata could be that of Naruto's father and mother. That's alot of speculation but it would make for a great story line.
To close let me just say if a girl as cute as Hinata was to profess her love for me while defending my life I would be her's no doubt in my mind. I know from experience how hard it is to find someone who believes in you with all their heart. I'm still looking for my Hinata. Naruto has found his and I wish Kishimoto Masashi would finally let him have her.


Last edited by JJ; 06-18-2009 at 09:30 PM. Reason: did you not read the title - manga be tagged
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:26 PM   #13
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Just for the hell of it, I'm going to spoiler tag this entire post because I'm tired of having to go back and edit it because I forget to spoiler some segments.

DON'T FORGET TO SPOILER THE SPOILERS!!!
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNetS View Post
Spoiler:
Nope not really. Think about it. She punched then pull him back up to her weight, meaning the hug would mostly be that of a relieved friend. It's the kinda of hug given to special friends that mean to you.

Spoiler:
I like how you just prove my statement by contradicting yourself. Intimacy is an expression of closeness, and to some extent vulnerability from closeness. It's a personal trait shared between people. Was the hug necessarily romantic? No, it was not. However, that doesn't make it any less intimate.


Quote:
Spoiler:
And yet, Naruto didn't seem all that affected by it. And there was no blushing.
Spoiler:
I think you should take a look at the panel Sakura actually embraces him. He, along with everyone else around them, is caught off guard by the act.


Quote:
Spoiler:
You really think Kishimoto gives a crap about sexual behavior in this manga? Despite there being questionable scenes from time to time ambigously misinterpeded?

Girls hugging boys = Sex? I got plenty of higs from girls and there just friends of mine. Now is the girl were clutching my head(notice Sakura touching Naruto's head a bit again this is when she hit him and carried him up), then it be somthing more.
Wtf?? SEX?? When, where did I so much as reference or mention sexual relations or interactions? I didn't.

Sure, sex can be intimate, but that doesn't mean intimacy is sex. As you probably well know, if this were the case, then sexual assaults likely wouldn't exist.

Here are various different definitions on what intimacy is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dictionary.com
1. associated in close personal relations: an intimate friend.
2. characterized by or involving warm friendship or a personally close or familiar association or feeling: an intimate greeting.
3. very private; closely personal: one's intimate affairs.
4. characterized by or suggesting privacy or intimacy; warmly cozy: an intimate little café.
5. (of an association, knowledge, understanding, etc.) arising from close personal connection or familiar experience.
6. engaged in or characterized by sexual relations.
7. (of clothing) worn next to the skin, under street or outer garments: intimate apparel.
8. detailed; deep: a more intimate analysis.
9. showing a close union or combination of particles or elements: an intimate mixture.
10. inmost; deep within.
11. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the inmost or essential nature; intrinsic: the intimate structure of an organism.
12. of, pertaining to, or existing in the inmost depths of the mind: intimate beliefs.
–noun
13. an intimate friend or associate, esp. a confidant.
As you can see, the general gist of these definitions is "closeness". Notice how one of the examples given (the first, in fact) is "intimate friend"? You don't have to be romantically or sexually involved with another individual to be intimate with them on some kind of level.



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Lets see, Hinata (when she fought Neji and when Naruto was fighting Neji), was the exact definition of woman he claims to think a man needs to save themselves by their rough behavior and intentions.

So confessing and admitting she's going to save him because she wants to without her mans wishes isn't tough? She's was taking action on her own terms and speaking her mind to him when she saw Naruto pinned down and saying stuff Naruto would have never thought to hear from her. Shikaku's sentence doesn't nessasrily mean that applies to only Tsunade and Sakura women. Women are tough on men in another perspective.

Sakura is tough with everybody. Again she's tough and gentle to almost everyone except Kakashi, Tsunade, and Shizune.
Once again, you aren't reading the context of the word you're trying to use as an argument against me. The actual word used in the translation was "rough". When has Hinata ever been "rough" with anyone save herself?

Also, why the hell are you making the assumption that I don't think Hinata is strong? Sure, she's tough. That doesn't mean she fits into the context of the speech, though. The individuals Shikamaru had in mind when he mentioned women were Ino and Sakura; girls who can be misleading with false kindness or who don't let other men get away with things. His own mother is this type of woman, and his father mentions that even the "roughest woman is tender to the man she loves". Sakura has been shown to rough with Naruto, but she also has her moments in which she is "tender" toward him.

I'd also like to add that Sakura isn't "tough" or "rough" with other people like she is with Naruto. She scolds other characters, but Naruto is the only one who gets the short end of the stick with a punch to the face. Yeah, she treats everyone about the same alright.

Anyway, I'm through with this piece of info. Time to move on to something else.

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Hinata is going to be more than that because she just changed her life confessing to the guy she always was intimindated by, thats why this pairing is good, Hinata and find more good qualities about herself and feel more expressive with Naruto by herside, and Naruto would have a loyal and kind girlfriend who'd enjoy his antics despite what he did but would put the foot down when he does something she doesn't like.
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to lie... I find it really hard to take this statement seriously.

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By relating to that, Naruto has formed special bonds with people who are like him in every way, I would see that as the begining of a great romance to me. Sakura? She's not on Naruto's radar when it comes to being a loser.
Sakura and Naruto have just as much, if not more, in common than Hinata and Naruto have, and it's shown in their interaction. They have the strongest possible bond in the story aside from Naruto and Sasuke. Your statement contradicts itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afalstein View Post

@CNets

I think you're misunderstanding KittenLou's use of the word "intimate." But I'll have to wait for a response to be sure, I suppose.
Haha, I think you might have understood it pretty well.

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Spoiler:
Yes and no. I'm not going to pretend the moment isn't important, but I don't think it's nearly as important as you're making it to be.

First of all, although it's undeniably more affection than Sakura has ever shown Naruto, it's not exactly a personal moment. It's much more communal, the entire village is there. Now I'm not saying that Sakura is hugging him "on behalf of the village" but I am saying that the hug fits more generally in the "acknowledged by everyone" goal of Naruto.
Spoiler:
It's the very fact that Sakura feels compelled to physically touch Naruto in such a way that makes it such a pivotal moment in their relationship. They started out as a like-hate relationship that eventually grew into something more that developed into a close companionship that blossomed into something... a little more. Is it love? No, but that doesn't mean it can't develop into such with more development.

Also, I thought I'd mention how I honestly don't see why or how Sakura represents everyone in the village with a hug when she is one of the most important people to Naruto in the village. I see Team Gai and the original rookie 9 as more befitting of this, since it took them much longer to fully acknowledge Naruto the way Team 7 did. Obviously, Hinata remains the only exception to this.

I can understand the argument being something along the lines of "it's just Sakura's way of showing her recognition of Naruto", but to compare that to the acknowledgement of an entire village when she was one of the first few who came to accept and acknowledge the influence Naruto had over her and his power...? I find that stretching it a bit, to be completely honest.


Quote:
Spoiler:
See, if this was meant as such a personal moment, I'd expect some close-ups of Naruto and Sakura (aside from the hug itself). Maybe a few thought bubbles showing Naruto's surprise. But it's followed by pictures of everyone from the village. It's put in a much more communal as opposed to intimate setting.
Spoiler:

Again, you're missing the point that physical displays of affection aren't very common in Asian culture. Like I said before, it's the very fact that Sakura has the urge, and thus acts on that urge, to touch Naruto and embrace him that makes their relationship into something more than what many people try to interpret it. All of this time, there has been an invisible physical barrier between the two of them and it's shattered in an instant with a hug. Hugs in themselves are acts of intimacy. They're shared between offspring and parent, between lovers, siblings, and friends. While the level of intimacy depends on the relationship the members giving/receiving the hug, that doesn't make it any less intimate... if that makes any sense at all.

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Old 06-18-2009, 09:50 PM   #14
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Oh noes, why did I let myself post in here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrannos View Post
Spoiler:


And how would those people be eating their words, if they were right?

Spoiler:
Nothing happened since Hinata's confession.

Naruto didn't talk to Hinata, nor shown signs of concern for her before his final confrontation with Pain.

But as soon as Naruto returns to the village in victory, instead of Hinata greeting him, it was Sakura. On top of it, she gave him a hug (and a possible kiss on the cheek). Showing the first real signs of anykind of real affection from her with Naruto.

Which goes nicely with what Shikaku said to Shikamaru regarding how women are gentle to the ones they love. (In which was heavily laughed at by those opposed to the NaruSaku fandom. )

All while Hinata watched with approval. (So because she was there, didn't make her "important").
Spoiler:
Keep in mind that not every development has to occur one after the other. For example, let's flash all the way back to the Chuunin exams; it took nearly twenty chapters for Naruto to run into Hinata again after their moment during the Preliminaries, and then the significant Proud Failure scene commenced. That also took place over a month manga-time. Mind you, I acknowledge that this scenario is a tad different, but it goes to show that Kishi will take his sweet time in dealing with certain matters. I am not going to count 437 as the "start" button for this count-up, of sorts, because Hinata was incapacitated and Naruto was in the midst of battle... thus, I'll mark chapter 450 as the start. Then, it has only been three complete chapters so far, and now that the Sauce has been mentioned, I am realistic enough to not expect any romance (from any side) for a while. That is, of course, unless Kishi decides to throw another curveball from left field like he did with chapter 437.

Also, touching lightly upon the "Sakura hugged Naruto and not Hinata" (I am treadding lightly for I know my interpretation will differ greatly from others), let us take into account their personalities and the situation at hand. If Hinata had run up and hug Naruto, we would be presented with an awkward situation in two ways: For one, Hinata is an introvert whereas Sakura is an extrovert, that much we know. That alone would be enough to explain her actions, or lack thereof. And second, Hinata has just confessed her love in what was probably under an hour or two manga-time; after saying her piece, if she were to suddenly be all over Naruto in front of everyone she might potentially be overstepping her boundries, not knowing how Naruto feels about all this. Had Hinata hugged him in an explicitly romantic manner with such an audience, Naruto, if he did not feel anything but positive in regards to Hinata's confession, would be put in a very uncomfortable and difficult situation of having to turn her down. Instead, we have NO reaction from Naruto outside of his very clear reaction in 437 and further reaction in 441. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Kishi will have Naruto address Hinata, but it will most likely not be soon and the moment will be between the two of them, which is the way 80% of their moments have commenced.

"Watching with approval" is a tricky way to put it. I mean, clearly she was watching with approval, but I believe it is for the fact that Naruto was finally gaining the recognition he so deserved for so very long. She always saw that in him, and finally the entire village did, as well. Kishi has proven to be pretty explicit when he wants to be (a chapter titled "Confession" with the contents dedicated completely to Hinata and her expressing her feelings for Naruto, as well as two "I love you"'s from complimentary pairings is about as explicit as it gets romantically, in Shounen no less), and there was no overt emphasis placed on the hug in 450. No reaction/reciprocation from Naruto, no immediate follow up, no thoughts from Sakura, Hinata or Naruto that might shed light on the situation... until/if we see that, I'll sit kindly on my own opinion... as you will as well, I am sure.

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Old 06-19-2009, 12:07 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Milky View Post
Spoiler:

Also, touching lightly upon the "Sakura hugged Naruto and not Hinata" (I am treadding lightly for I know my interpretation will differ greatly from others), let us take into account their personalities and the situation at hand. If Hinata had run up and hug Naruto, we would be presented with an awkward situation in two ways: For one, Hinata is an introvert whereas Sakura is an extrovert, that much we know. That alone would be enough to explain her actions, or lack thereof. And second, Hinata has just confessed her love in what was probably under an hour or two manga-time; after saying her piece, if she were to suddenly be all over Naruto in front of everyone she might potentially be overstepping her boundries, not knowing how Naruto feels about all this. Had Hinata hugged him in an explicitly romantic manner with such an audience, Naruto, if he did not feel anything but positive in regards to Hinata's confession, would be put in a very uncomfortable and difficult situation of having to turn her down. Instead, we have NO reaction from Naruto outside of his very clear reaction in 437 and further reaction in 441. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Kishi will have Naruto address Hinata, but it will most likely not be soon and the moment will be between the two of them, which is the way 80% of their moments have commenced.
Cool. Hadn't considered that, actually, but it works very well in terms of character.
Spoiler:
Sakura obviously would feel more comfortable with the hug because she knows how she stands there. Though obviously this doesn't take away KittenLou's point about hugging in Japanese culture, it does explain partly why Kishi did what he did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KittenLou View Post

Spoiler:
It's the very fact that Sakura feels compelled to physically touch Naruto in such a way that makes it such a pivotal moment in their relationship. They started out as a like-hate relationship that eventually grew into something more that developed into a close companionship that blossomed into something... a little more. Is it love? No, but that doesn't mean it can't develop into such with more development.

Also, I thought I'd mention how I honestly don't see why or how Sakura represents everyone in the village with a hug when she is one of the most important people to Naruto in the village. I see Team Gai and the original rookie 9 as more befitting of this, since it took them much longer to fully acknowledge Naruto the way Team 7 did. Obviously, Hinata remains the only exception to this.
Hm. Interesting. Like you say, Sakura is definitely one of the more important people to Naruto. Not going to argue that point. I still consider her one of the harshest critics, though. Yes, she's acknowledged his power for a while now, but the last time she told him was back in Part I, when he left to retrieve Sasuke. He failed that one (obviously), and she was let down. I think I can say that safely.

Now, that was a long time ago, and she's pretty much over it, but it's been difficult. She still obviously impressed by his level of power and his dedication, but she's never really told him so. Which, considering her forward nature, is somewhat surprising.
Spoiler:

I do see what you're saying about the hug, though. Not very familiar with Japan, must say, but I can see how it's an important consideration. Obviously the hug was meant to be important and stirring. But I'd still think it would be made a more personal moment instead of zooming out to show the village. Especially if it's such an intimate thing as you say (oh, and I'm glad I was correct about that.) ;-p

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Old 06-19-2009, 12:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Afalstein View Post
Spoiler:
Sakura obviously would feel more comfortable with the hug because she knows how she stands there. Though obviously this doesn't take away KittenLou's point about hugging in Japanese culture, it does explain partly why Kishi did what he did.
Spoiler:
Perhaps, but I'll call apples and oranges. Hinata also used the second highest term for the word "love" in her confession, the highest being a word reserved solely for married couples and the most dramatic of Shoujou romances. I just can't take the gesture too seriously (in referance to romance) because of the lack of emphasis, on Naruto's part especially. For someone who's supposedly had a crush on Sakura for a while, the lack of reaction, thoughts or immediate follow-up it just doesn't add up for now, so I'll wait it out.

Of course, that's not to speak for Kishi in what the hug was supposed to or not supposed to mean, I'm just gathering my own opinion based off of observation and how these type of scenarios usually play out when aiming for one atmosphere over the other.

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Old 06-19-2009, 01:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Milky View Post
Spoiler:
Perhaps, but I'll call apples and oranges. Hinata also used the second highest term for the word "love" in her confession, the highest being a word reserved solely for married couples and the most dramatic of Shoujou romances. I just can't take the gesture too seriously (in referance to romance) because of the lack of emphasis, on Naruto's part especially. For someone who's supposedly had a crush on Sakura for a while, the lack of reaction, thoughts or immediate follow-up it just doesn't add up for now, so I'll wait it out.

Of course, that's not to speak for Kishi in what the hug was supposed to or not supposed to mean, I'm just gathering my own opinion based off of observation and how these type of scenarios usually play out when aiming for one atmosphere over the other.

Spoiler:
To me Hinata's "I love you" (in my opinion) was more like a "thank you for being my source of inspiration", nothing more. Naruto has never paid her any special attention, certainly not any different from the attention that he gives to all the other Konoha 9 rookies. In her deluded mind she probably does think that she "loves" him because she simply doesn't pay any attention to anyone else but him, from afar. Let's try to parallel reality with the manga for a second - in the real world the best word to describe Hinata's behavior and herself is simply a stalker. I know it sounds harsh but what else can you really call her. Stalkers aren't always necessarily bad people but the word does have a negative aspect to it because it's just not normal human behavior. I don't hate Hinata as a character because personally I think she is sweet, but logically she just doesn't seem to have much of a chance with Naruto. I know people are gonna say the possibility is still there and I agree with that but compared to the other popular pairing (Narusaku), which has had a lot of undeniably mutual moments, I just don't see how the Naruhina pairing can compete with that.

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Old 06-19-2009, 02:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky View Post
Spoiler:
Keep in mind that not every development has to occur one after the other. For example, let's flash all the way back to the Chuunin exams; it took nearly twenty chapters for Naruto to run into Hinata again after their moment during the Preliminaries, and then the significant Proud Failure scene commenced. That also took place over a month manga-time. Mind you, I acknowledge that this scenario is a tad different, but it goes to show that Kishi will take his sweet time in dealing with certain matters. I am not going to count 437 as the "start" button for this count-up, of sorts, because Hinata was incapacitated and Naruto was in the midst of battle... thus, I'll mark chapter 450 as the start. Then, it has only been three complete chapters so far, and now that the Sauce has been mentioned, I am realistic enough to not expect any romance (from any side) for a while. That is, of course, unless Kishi decides to throw another curveball from left field like he did with chapter 437.
Of course not all development happens immediately after a chapter. That's why I (and many other NaruSaku's) believe that Chapter 297 and Chapter 343's cliffhanger moments between Naruto and Sakura are simply delayed to a towards the end of the manga when things start to click.

But the funny thing is, Naruto's moments with Hinata are always involved with a temporary situation that's quickly resolved.

Chuunin Test 1: Hinata presents a cheating opportunity for Naruto. Which leads to him promptly rejecting her offer, and leads to the right answer on his own.

Chuunin Prelims: Neji pushing around Hinata strikes a personal chord with Naruto and it leads to their confrontation. Then Neji's redemption.

And then:
Hinata jumping in "saving" Naruto. Which was nothing but a plot tool to get Naruto to go Kyuubi, in which brings the reunion between Father and Son, and the redemption of Pain.


And on top of that, Naruto still has no affection for Hinata what so ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky View Post
Spoiler:

Also, touching lightly upon the "Sakura hugged Naruto and not Hinata" (I am treadding lightly for I know my interpretation will differ greatly from others), let us take into account their personalities and the situation at hand. If Hinata had run up and hug Naruto, we would be presented with an awkward situation in two ways: For one, Hinata is an introvert whereas Sakura is an extrovert, that much we know. That alone would be enough to explain her actions, or lack thereof. And second, Hinata has just confessed her love in what was probably under an hour or two manga-time; after saying her piece, if she were to suddenly be all over Naruto in front of everyone she might potentially be overstepping her boundries, not knowing how Naruto feels about all this. Had Hinata hugged him in an explicitly romantic manner with such an audience, Naruto, if he did not feel anything but positive in regards to Hinata's confession, would be put in a very uncomfortable and difficult situation of having to turn her down. Instead, we have NO reaction from Naruto outside of his very clear reaction in 437 and further reaction in 441. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that Kishi will have Naruto address Hinata, but it will most likely not be soon and the moment will be between the two of them, which is the way 80% of their moments have commenced.

"Watching with approval" is a tricky way to put it. I mean, clearly she was watching with approval, but I believe it is for the fact that Naruto was finally gaining the recognition he so deserved for so very long. She always saw that in him, and finally the entire village did, as well. Kishi has proven to be pretty explicit when he wants to be (a chapter titled "Confession" with the contents dedicated completely to Hinata and her expressing her feelings for Naruto, as well as two "I love you"'s from complimentary pairings is about as explicit as it gets romantically, in Shounen no less), and there was no overt emphasis placed on the hug in 450. No reaction/reciprocation from Naruto, no immediate follow up, no thoughts from Sakura, Hinata or Naruto that might shed light on the situation... until/if we see that, I'll sit kindly on my own opinion... as you will as well, I am sure.
With Hinata:
If Hinata was still shy, then she would not have been crying in front of everyone, now would she?

Hinata's confession was supposed to bring her out of her shell, so that means she could've easily hugged Naruto.


Naruto's Feelings:
Hinata obviously isn't that important to Naruto as people claim to be. Because after Katsuyu told him she was okay and he confirmed it, that was it. Hinata no longer crossed his mind, it was all about avenging Jiraiya. (In short: Jiraiya > Hinata)


Frankly, Naruto's got much more important things than Hinata. I can name a dozen things more important to Naruto than her. So if you want to believe Hinata has greater importance than these things, then so be it. But I guarantee you it's not going to lead to NaruHina.

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Old 06-19-2009, 04:00 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by NarutoIzDaMan View Post
Spoiler:
To me Hinata's "I love you" (in my opinion) was more like a "thank you for being my source of inspiration", nothing more. Naruto has never paid her any special attention, certainly not any different from the attention that he gives to all the other Konoha 9 rookies. In her deluded mind she probably does think that she "loves" him because she simply doesn't pay any attention to anyone else but him, from afar. Let's try to parallel reality with the manga for a second - in the real world the best word to describe Hinata's behavior and herself is simply a stalker. I know it sounds harsh but what else can you really call her. Stalkers aren't always necessarily bad people but the word does have a negative aspect to it because it's just not normal human behavior. I don't hate Hinata as a character because personally I think she is sweet, but logically she just doesn't seem to have much of a chance with Naruto. I know people are gonna say the possibility is still there and I agree with that but compared to the other popular pairing (Narusaku), which has had a lot of undeniably mutual moments, I just don't see how the Naruhina pairing can compete with that.
Exactly. IMO that "thank you" was the sign she finally matured and Naruto was for her source of strengh and inspiration so now she's ready to lead her clan.

About the hug - well romantic or no, the last person ever hugged by Sakura was Sasuke. She's extrovert but it doesn't mean she's expressing all her feelings all the time. Sometimes she's storing it deep inside especially memories about Sasuke. Also IMO lack of the conversation between Naruto and Hinata after his return and instead - conversation with Sakura can be hint for sth more between them. However he should at least thanks Hinata for saving his butt.

Naruto and Sakura's mutual feelings are growing, she's admiring him more and he becomes more responsible and less dummy. When Sasuke will return to Konoha and they will meet, it can be the catalyst for NS and it can push it forward greatly.

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Old 06-19-2009, 10:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Tyrannos View Post
Of course not all development happens immediately after a chapter. That's why I (and many other NaruSaku's) believe that Chapter 297 and Chapter 343's cliffhanger moments between Naruto and Sakura are simply delayed to a towards the end of the manga when things start to click.
Fair enough, but if that's the case then every single Big 3 couple is waiting for follow up and/or resolution of some kind that has happened in the past--NaruHina's just happens to be the most recent of the three.

Quote:
But the funny thing is, Naruto's moments with Hinata are always involved with a temporary situation that's quickly resolved.
Um, just like every single other arc that has ever been in this manga, discluding certain core, chronic issues such as Sasuke. Just because it was resolved doesn't mean you can cheapen what occured.

Quote:
Chuunin Test 1: Hinata presents a cheating opportunity for Naruto. Which leads to him promptly rejecting her offer, and leads to the right answer on his own.
Unfortunately for you, that's not exactly the way it went down. You see, Naruto was quite happy to get that offer and wondered why Hinata would do such a thing for him (which almost led to her explaining her feelings at the time, but she wasn't prepared and came up with a cheap excuse instead), and he only turned down her offer when he acknowledged that Hinata would get in trouble herself, as well as his own teammates. Naruto finding the correct answer in the end doesn't have anything to do with he and Hinata--simply following the story's theme of "If you work hard you can accomplish anything."

Quote:
Chuunin Prelims: Neji pushing around Hinata strikes a personal chord with Naruto and it leads to their confrontation. Then Neji's redemption.
Yes, it undoubtedly struck a personal chord, but Naruto is not selfish enough to only defend Hinata because it affected him personally. He saw this kind girl being verbally and physically tormented by her cousin, and Naruto was not prepared to stand by and let something so cruel slide.

Quote:
And then:
Hinata jumping in "saving" Naruto. Which was nothing but a plot tool to get Naruto to go Kyuubi, in which brings the reunion between Father and Son, and the redemption of Pain.
Spoiler:
True, it did have a domino effect on other events, but that doesn't mean it was a plot device for those to happen alone. Kishi could have used other characters or other scenarios to cause Naruto to lose it--instead, he has Hinata confess her love.
Also, for being a "plot device" for the Minato/Naruto reunion, not much further emphasis has been placed on the meeting. We may have yet to see a clearer reaction from Naruto regarding Hinata, yes, but at least she has clearly been picked out of the crowd (as seen in 450) as opposed to just melting away.


Quote:
And on top of that, Naruto still has no affection for Hinata what so ever.
Slow down, Sea Biscuit. No, we don't know if he has/might have romantic feelings for her YET, but his overall behavior with her has been nothing but kind and soft--there has been absolutely no evidence that Naruto feels anything but positive feelings towards Hinata, feelings that could potentially lead to/be romantic.

Also, there's the "But a person like you... I really like!"

Quote:
With Hinata:
If Hinata was still shy, then she would not have been crying in front of everyone, now would she?
Spoiler:
What, like anyone was looking at her? Also, remember back in 441, where the group was smaller and more intimate, Hinata clearly hid her tears from view. Crying =/= outgoing.


Quote:
Spoiler:
Hinata's confession was supposed to bring her out of her shell, so that means she could've easily hugged Naruto.
Spoiler:
She DID come out of her shell, but that doesn't give her the right to potentially cross the line and force her affection on Naruto regardless of how he might feel. Confessions don't work like that. Now that Hinata has explained her feelings, the ball is in Naruto's court.


Quote:
Naruto's Feelings:
Hinata obviously isn't that important to Naruto as people claim to be. Because after Katsuyu told him she was okay and he confirmed it, that was it. Hinata no longer crossed his mind, it was all about avenging Jiraiya. (In short: Jiraiya > Hinata)
Spoiler:
Not that important? Well then, allow me to relay his feelings in chapter 437-441 ALONE:
~ screaming at Hinata to get away
~ screaming at Pain to not stab her
~ going KN6->8 when she was stabbed
~ having an emotional breakdown inside the Kyuubi, part of which was attributed to Hinata's condition
~ remembering Hinata broken on the ground almost immediately after recovering
~ gripping his heart and searching for her life force
~ gripping his heart tighter when he DID sense it, only to have it verbally confirmed by Katsuyu
~ trembling/crying and saying "Thank god, thank god," flashing immediately (in the exact same panel strip) to a fallen Hinata, bleeding to death and still thinking about Naruto.

All we need now is a civilized and and calmer meeting between the two to hear more about his feelings. And you also can't be so quick to say "it was all about avenging Jiraiya." Yes, that was a HUGE reason, but it was never explicitly stated--instead, we have Naruto saying how he hated Nagato and shouldn't be able to forgive him for what he's done. After saying that, he didn't immediately flash to Jiraiya to indicate that is what he was referring to. Naruto only flashed to Jiraiya later because he and Nagato were bonded by having the same teacher, and it was also Jiraiya's book that helped Naruto with his answer. Sorry, but Naruto hated Nagato for a number of reasons: Jiraiya, Hinata, the village, etc.

Also, Jiraiya/Sasuke > just about everybody.


Quote:
Frankly, Naruto's got much more important things than Hinata. I can name a dozen things more important to Naruto than her. So if you want to believe Hinata has greater importance than these things, then so be it. But I guarantee you it's not going to lead to NaruHina.
Spoiler:
Well, don't make false claims, because I don't think that. Why? Romance has and will always take a backseat to other issues in the manga, especially now that the Sauce has made his return. You talk as though NaruHina fans expect things to go down like, "Sasuke, what the hell are you doing in the Akatsuki!? I thought you were our frie--shit, wait a second! What the hell am I talking about? Screw you, Sasuke, I've gotta go take Hinata on a ramen date! See you cool cats later... oh, and have fun with Danzou and the Cloud who all want to kill you!" Priorities, my friend, priorities. Naruto will get to Hinata in due time.


Last edited by Elphaba; 06-19-2009 at 12:22 PM.
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