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Old 04-19-2009, 02:45 AM   #1
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I dont think this has been made into a debate thread in this section...

Anyways.

Here, debate lolicon- its legal status, morality, depictions from culture to culture, etc.

Lolicon is the label for the preference, or interest, in very young girls, or girls that have [physical] childish characteristics.

It does *not* only refer to the pornography genre, though it is possibly most commonly used to reference it in this day and age.

Debate whatever you want about it- however, these are some questions that you may be interested in answering and discussing in the process:

-Should animations, computer games, manga, etc. featuring female children, or women who resemble children, in sexual situations be outlawed or atleast heavily regulated?
-Do you believe that an individual who is interested in lolicon-based animations, videogames, artwork, etc. is necessarily a pedophile? How would you explain someone who takes a universal interest in women of all age ranges?
-Some argue that the legalization of lolicon animated material may actually reduce occurances of real-life pedophillic actions by providing users with an outlet of questionable healthiness. Would you agree? Why or why not?
-The term "moe", as a classification of various fetishisms in anime and manga is sometimes used as a synonymous definition to "lolicon". How do you feel about this?
-While child pornography was outlawed in Japan around 1999, the attempts of Japanese interest groups to end lolicon animated materials thus far have been either ignored, unconsidered, or rejected. Do you feel that this is for good reason?

Of course, don't feel *expected* to answer these. They serve as a mere topic starter ideas.

My opinion?

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with lolicon animation, but at the same time I am very against real-life pedophilia. I guess the way I see it, is that there is a difference between a drawing and an actual photo or picture. However, I do not feel that it is appropriate for someone who is possibly in danger of participating in, or conducting, real-life pedophillic behavior to consume and enjoy lolicon animated materials. I treat that matter in the same way that I would treat this question: should a suicidal individual be given a handgun?

Also, I feel that the focus on lolicon is biased to one gender. When you wiki "shotacon", the male equivalent to "lolicon", you will find a much more limited, if not non-existent, controversy section. Also, the comparison of groups focusing on lolicon to the groups also focusing on shotacon is, well, unfair. The reality is that both sexes are targeted by pedophillic individuals, and both young boys and girls can and will sometimes be abused and violated.

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Old 04-19-2009, 02:53 AM   #2
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Old 04-19-2009, 02:59 AM   #3
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It's not my cup of tea, but for those that do enjoy should have the right to do so without fear of being punished by the law.

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Old 04-19-2009, 03:07 AM   #4
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In before Zaxxon.

I hate to give the usual trite answer, but I think it's absolutely fine if its manga/anime. Actual paedophilia is however, immoral and morbid. Also, moe-esque characters . I love 'em. Although, seeing them in actual sex even in hentai is ...

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Old 04-19-2009, 03:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattaru View Post
In before Zaxxon.

I hate to give the usual trite answer, but I think it's absolutely fine if its manga/anime. Actual paedophilia is however, immoral and morbid. Also, moe-esque characters . I love 'em. Although, seeing them in actual sex even in hentai is ...
I knew you'd come here

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Old 04-19-2009, 03:17 AM   #6
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Given that morality is based on a bunch of emphemeral rationalizations designed to allow, or disallow behaviors it should be determined by the cultural values of a given society.

And since rationalizations are designed to mask guttural reactions in an attempt to convince other people of a viewpoint it's a waste of time to even think a rationalization could ever be objectively correct (only possessing subjective truth value so far as the individual is concerned).

If a society is okay with it, let it be. If not, just as well. Both sides are equally "correct".

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some objective standard for morality in general, and therefore this has some kind of clear-cut standard I'm unaware of.


Last edited by Bryan Paulsen; 04-19-2009 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 08:15 AM   #7
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Lolicon is still wrong, its pedophilia and regardless of whether its drawn, imagined or real little kids, you're a pedophile for liking it.

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Old 04-20-2009, 08:22 AM   #8
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If your getting excited about pre-pubescent children then your a pedophile.

Doesnt matter if its a drawn representation or the real thing.


What does seperate it from real pictures is that no children were harmed in the creating of it.
I would like to know if such material would increase the chance for pedophiles to act on their urges. If not...i would not criminalize it, but would want it restricted cause i dont need that disgusting sexual preferance in the public view/space.

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Old 04-20-2009, 08:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabuzalives View Post
If your getting excited about pre-pubescent children then your a pedophile.

Doesnt matter if its a drawn representation or the real thing.


What does seperate it from real pictures is that no children were harmed in the creating of it.
I would like to know if such material would increase the chance for pedophiles to act on their urges. If not...i would not criminalize it, but would want it restricted cause i dont need that disgusting sexual preferance in the public view/space.
I think that the whole "Its just cartoons" thing is a way to not look like "real" pedophiles.

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Old 04-20-2009, 08:27 AM   #10
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Lolicon is no more an actual depiction of a child having sex or in a sexual position than a decapitation or other form of murder in a video game is an actual depiction of murder.

The two things can and should be compared. Either both are legal and permissible for adults to view, or neither, but don't be a fucking hypocrite and say one is worse than the other.

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Old 04-20-2009, 08:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilaf View Post
Lolicon is no more an actual depiction of a child having sex or in a sexual position than a decapitation or other form of murder in a video game is an actual depiction of murder.

The two things can and should be compared. Either both are legal and permissible for adults to view, or neither, but don't be a fucking hypocrite and say one is worse than the other.

Threatening me with being a hypocrite?

Here is the thing, viewing a murder isn't illegal. Viewing child porn is.

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Old 04-20-2009, 08:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboard Tube Knight View Post


Here is the thing, viewing a murder isn't illegal. Viewing child porn is.
Here's the thing...lolicon isn't child porn.

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Old 04-20-2009, 11:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilaf View Post
Lolicon is no more an actual depiction of a child having sex or in a sexual position than a decapitation or other form of murder in a video game is an actual depiction of murder.

The two things can and should be compared. Either both are legal and permissible for adults to view, or neither, but don't be a fucking hypocrite and say one is worse than the other.
I totally agree with this statement.

Whether someone who watches child porn is a pedophile changes from a dictionary to the other. Some definitions say that a pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to kids, others say that it is someone who actually abuses a kids for his own pleasure.

There is, however, still a big step between actual child porn and lolicon. By watching child porn, you are witnessing an act of raping and not reporting it to the police, which goes straight against the law and encourages more abuse of that kind. By watching lolicon, you are simply enjoying a cartoon, a simulation of drawn kids having sex. I could be wrong, but I strongly believe that many lolicon fans aren't aroused by actual kids having sex. Just as some people like hentai and dislike actual porn.

Pilaf's example of murder was a good one too. If you murder in a game, are you a murderer? If you like to watch movies where people get killed, does it mean you'll be on a rampage in a public high school with a gun the next day? Or if you fap to gore, are you a potential serial killer? Of course not. It takes more than watching simulations to make you disturbed enough to kill people, or even to rape kids.

For the ones against lolicon, you should consider that. No one is harmed in lolicon, and, well, it's obviously, after all, a simple cartoon.

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Old 04-20-2009, 12:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vervex View Post
I totally agree with this statement.

Whether someone who watches child porn is a pedophile changes from a dictionary to the other. Some definitions say that a pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to kids, others say that it is someone who actually abuses a kids for his own pleasure.

-snip-

Pilaf's example of murder was a good one too. If you murder in a game, are you a murderer? If you like to watch movies where people get killed, does it mean you'll be on a rampage in a public high school with a gun the next day? Or if you fap to gore, are you a potential serial killer? Of course not. It takes more than watching simulations to make you disturbed enough to kill people, or even to rape kids.

For the ones against lolicon, you should consider that. No one is harmed in lolicon, and, well, it's obviously, after all, a simple cartoon.

The context is completely different and the distinction arbitrary.

Let's go back to my old reliable example.

Let's say you caught a MALE friend masturbating to cartoon depictions of male-on-male sex: would you buy his explanation that it's not "really gay" because it's not "real" men, just depictions of men, having sex? No, you'd call him full of shit. What's different here?

There is no argument over the definition of pedophile, Vervex. The definition is anyone sexually attracted to prepubescent children. They don't have to act on it to be labeled as such hence why being a pedophile isn't a crime in and of itself. Claiming to not be gratifying oneself via the rape of children, while a clarification worth making, doesn't expunge the label of being a pedophile. Just like having fantasies in your head would make you a pedophile, so does jacking it to cartoon 9 year olds.

As for Pilaf's analogy, perhaps violent video games/movies are fulfilling peoples' fantasies of violence and mayhem. Establishing that hypocrisy does nothing to dismiss the claim that people who enjoy loli are pedophiles. No one's arguing it will cause them to actually act on it thus the "school shootings" bit is no longer analogous and the whole point's moot. By the way, if you "fap to gore," that's a fetish worth looking into a psych evaluation over.

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Old 04-20-2009, 12:43 PM   #15
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If the majority of lolicon was "realistic" when it comes to the consequences of 6-11 year old girls having sex (the injuries, the screaming, ect) then yes id agree that lolicon is made to appeal to pedophiles. Maybe even seriously deranged pedophiles, if watching a pre-pubescent girls vagina being torn open gets them off.

But in MOST of the lolicon ive seen, the girls are physically "ok", if not perfectly well with the act. They are not being torn open, as a real girl of that age would be. And most of them seem to be enjoying the sex, if not portrayed as being the one who wanted it in the first place. I realize that this would prob be written off as "well, they are giving the sicko's the justification for their obsession. The little girls like it, want it and can take it"

Which is a perfectly valid point to have, ill admit. But the physical fact of the matter is that the majority of lolicon females dont respond physically or mentally to sex as a real girl of the same age would, so i dont consider them to be human(in mind or body), and therefore human morals and standards / laws shouldnt apply to them.

And yeah.. besides the fact that they arnt REAL TO BEGIN WITH (as opposed to real child porn. which is just 1001 differant ways of nasty and reprehensible).

Do i like it? not particularily. But am i going to slam the label of "pedophile rapist monster!" on somebody who does? Of course not. Its their fetish, let them enjoy it.



(and im 75% sure this topic has been done before here)

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Old 04-20-2009, 12:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboard Tube Knight View Post
Lolicon is still wrong, its pedophilia and regardless of whether its drawn, imagined or real little kids, you're a pedophile for liking it.
You can't arrest someone purely on the basis of being a pedophile. It's a reason to keep a look out for them, but if there isn't anything showing they plan to or have exploited real children you cannot touch them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboard Tube Knight View Post
I think that the whole "Its just cartoons" thing is a way to not look like "real" pedophiles.
But it is just cartoons. Fictional content in which no real person(s) are being exploited. You can't assume because they take part in consumption of fictional content that they are going to go out and actually rape a kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboard Tube Knight View Post

Threatening me with being a hypocrite?

Here is the thing, viewing a murder isn't illegal. Viewing child porn is.
Lolicon isn't child porn.

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfarus View Post
If the majority of lolicon was "realistic" when it comes to the consequences of 6-11 year old girls having sex (the injuries, the screaming, ect) then yes id agree that lolicon is made to appeal to pedophiles. Maybe even seriously deranged pedophiles, if watching a pre-pubescent girls vagina being torn open gets them off.
Pedophiles aren't required to be rapists or be turned on by violence.

It's just the reality that any pedophile who acts on his attraction (note how one is a pedophile even before acting on it) will inevitably lead to rape since a child legally can't (and more importantly won't) consent.

Lolicon is made to appeal to pedophiles because it's a depiction of children in sexual situations.

Quote:
But in MOST of the lolicon ive seen, the girls are physically "ok", if not perfectly well with the act.
Of course in a fantasy world designed to appeal to pedophiles the children are "ok" with it. The fact you won't go that extra step into "perfectly well" even within this fantasy context is very telling that you're rationalizing.

Quote:
They are not being torn open, as a real girl of that age would be. And most of them seem to be enjoying the sex, if not portrayed as being the one who wanted it in the first place. I realize that this would prob be written off as "well, they are giving the sicko's the justification for their obsession. The little girls like it, want it and can take it"
I imagine you're one of the people who would read Lolita and buy Humbert's embellishment that the girl seduced him.

Learn the actual definition of pedophilia before arguing it.

Quote:
Which is a perfectly valid point to have, ill admit. But the physical fact of the matter is that the majority of lolicon females dont respond physically or mentally to sex as a real girl of the same age would, so i dont consider them to be human(in mind or body), and therefore human morals and standards / laws shouldnt apply to them.
As I said, it's a pedophilic fantasy world designed to appeal to pedophiles.

Quote:
And yeah.. besides the fact that they arnt REAL TO BEGIN WITH (as opposed to real child porn. which is just 1001 differant ways of nasty and reprehensible).
If anyone was saying children being raped was a requisite for pedophilia, you'd have a point. We didn't, you don't.

Quote:
Do i like it? not particularily. But am i going to slam the label of "pedophile rapist monster!" on somebody who does? Of course not. Its their fetish, let them enjoy it.
You're the one who's not separating "pedophile" from "rapist monster."



Quote:
(and im 75% sure this topic has been done before here)
I'm 175% sure since I've been in at least 3 of them.

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:17 PM   #18
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I propose that if you think that an attraction to drawn young girls automatically makes someone a pedophile, you probably also think that if someone likes guro, that automatically makes them want to mutilate for pleasure.

I mean, logically that's what it sounds like you're saying to me.

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Zaxxon~ View Post
I propose that if you think that an attraction to drawn young girls automatically makes someone a pedophile, you probably also think that if someone likes guro, that automatically makes them want to mutilate for pleasure.

I mean, logically that's what it sounds like to me.
Obviously, it makes one ponder the correlation.

Your analogy doesn't stand because one requires an action (mutilation) while pedophilia doesn't.

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:22 PM   #20
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it's all for teh lulz

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