• Free Naruto Games
  • Naruto Wallpaper
  • Want a Good Laugh Check out These Funny Pics
Welcome to the Naruto Forums. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Notices

Go Back   Naruto Forums > Downtown Konoha > The NF Café > Philosophical Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-19-2009, 05:08 PM   #1
IBU
Hopsecutioner
Pretentious Plebeian
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hopistan
Posts: 3,723
Blog Entries: 2
IBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is TranscendentIBU is Transcendent
Send a message via MSN to IBU
Default The Official "Is there Good and Evil?" Thread #1

This thread is for the discussion of the validity of claims of good and evil (are they subjective or objective). And for what reasons would you claim that such claims (moral ones) are objective or subjective.

Please use this thread for discussion of such issues.

Thank You


This will be trashed at 1000 posts, and new one created in all likelihood.

IBU is offline   Reply With Quote
NarutoForums
        


Old 01-19-2009, 05:33 PM   #2
Purgatory
Banned
God of Shinobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Waiting for that one girl...
Posts: 16,560
Blog Entries: 8
Purgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is CelestialPurgatory is Celestial
Send a message via AIM to Purgatory Send a message via MSN to Purgatory
Default

Good and Evil are just words we use as to identifying a person, place, object, or idea for something that is moral or wrong, just or tainted.

As an example, let's use Biblical figures. The majority of people that the whole Jesus Christ and God are supposedly good because of Jesus performing miracles such as curing a man's blindness, walking on water and then have either Peter, Paul or Luke hold his hand as they were able to walk on water, turning water into wine, etc.

Now for the antagonist, the Devil himself, AKA Satan, who is symbolized as his horned beast who conquers this fire and brimstone like place, whilst the torturing of many people take place. He is seen as a force to be reckoned with since he tried to take God's throne back when he was Lucifer, the angel of vanity. Now vanity was something He hated, and when Lucifer tried to claim God's throne, and his power, he was sent out of Heaven to his own little dominion.

However, there are people who have reverse points of view on these two figures. Some claim that God, for taking a man's life from him (to prove that said man was still faithful to Him), was not the benevolent force that we are taught to believe.

To veer from Biblical subjects, let's say someone was to steal food from a market, but was stopped. People view the criminal as "evil" for enacting the crime whilst depicting one who had stopped him as "good". However, this is but one side of a story. Now what if I were to say that person could not be able to afford said good, and his only way to live was to steal? What if he had to assist in providing for his family? Would people be so close-minded as to still call him a thief?

In my personal take on this, "good" and "evil" are just what people are taught to be two forces that collide with one another. To me, philosophically speaking, they are just perspectives that people have, their own beliefs to use for symbolizing people, things, etc., etc.

Also, as a suggestion to the OP, perhaps you could also add an extra question of something along the lines of:

If one were to collapse, would it be possible for there to only be completely "good" or "evil"?

Purgatory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 05:44 PM   #3
impersonal
Banned
Jinchuuriki
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,277
impersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturousimpersonal is Rapturous
Default

Good and Evil are subjective. They're whatever you want them to be.

(also they're absolute)
(and you can't decide what you want, as explained by schopi)
(so basically they're about as real as you can get, despite being "subjective"...much like many other things.)

impersonal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 05:47 PM   #4
Jon Snow
スタンド使い
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,333
Jon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultraJon Snow is the ne plus ultra
Default

"There is no good and evil, but thinking makes it so"

Jon Snow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 06:26 PM   #5
Coteaz
Doesn't want a Custom Title
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,634
Coteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is Rapturous
Default

Rats are evil because they bite me and give me nasty diseases.

Coteaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 06:43 PM   #6
dreams lie
Round Quadrangles
Hokage
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Silver State
Posts: 13,968
dreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysiandreams lie is Elysian
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coteaz View Post
Rats are evil because they bite me and give me nasty diseases.
However, one may declare you to be evil for killing them.

dreams lie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 06:50 PM   #7
Luiz
Mistah L
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 23,534
Luiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultraLuiz is the ne plus ultra
Send a message via MSN to Luiz
Default

Quote:
Now what if I were to say that person could not be able to afford said good, and his only way to live was to steal? What if he had to assist in providing for his family? Would people be so close-minded as to still call him a thief?
That's the problem about it. It rarely is the only option. I've watched some news about a homeless man who used to visit a public library and study a lot,and in a certain day,he took the exams and was approved. And there are many people who sells something in the street to live. You see?

Luiz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 07:00 PM   #8
Coteaz
Doesn't want a Custom Title
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,634
Coteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is RapturousCoteaz is Rapturous
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreams lie View Post
However, one may declare you to be evil for killing them.
Then I declare all those who declare me to be evil to be evil themselves.

...
Are the rats evil for biting me? Or am I evil for provoking a situation that ends in a rat biting me?

In other words, subjectivity at its finest.

Coteaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 07:27 PM   #9
Takuza
THE FELT
Torture Specialist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,219
Takuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faith
Default There is no objective morality

"There is no objective morality"
The above statement cannot be true because it in and of itself claims to be an an objective statement.

Discuss

Takuza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 07:42 PM   #10
Jello Biafra
Now Look What You Made Me Do
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur quantum box...maybe
Posts: 8,311
Blog Entries: 6
Jello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareil
Send a message via MSN to Jello Biafra
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takuza View Post
"There is no objective morality"
The above statement cannot be true because it in and of itself claims to be an an objective statement.

Discuss
There is no paradox. The above is not a moral claim, thus within the context of it's own terms it is possible to make such a claim.

Jello Biafra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 07:49 PM   #11
Zephos
Banned
Jinchuuriki
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,281
Zephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is Celestial
Default

I herald this the shortest debate on Narutofan.

Zephos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 07:50 PM   #12
Jello Biafra
Now Look What You Made Me Do
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur quantum box...maybe
Posts: 8,311
Blog Entries: 6
Jello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareil
Send a message via MSN to Jello Biafra
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephos View Post
I herald this the shortest debate on Narutofan.
Someone else will post. Just watch.

Jello Biafra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 08:05 PM   #13
Takuza
THE FELT
Torture Specialist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,219
Takuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephos View Post
I herald this the shortest debate on Narutofan.
It wasn't really meant to be a debate, which is why I placed it in the philosophical section

Takuza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 08:14 PM   #14
Zephos
Banned
Jinchuuriki
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,281
Zephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is CelestialZephos is Celestial
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takuza View Post
It wasn't really meant to be a debate, which is why I placed it in the philosophical section
Which is a debate forum for philosophical/metaphysical things.

Zephos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 08:18 PM   #15
Takuza
THE FELT
Torture Specialist
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,219
Takuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faithTakuza is a guardian of the faith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephos View Post
Which is a debate forum for philosophical/metaphysical things.
Oh, I was under the impression that this is a discussion forum. My apologies.

Takuza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2009, 09:30 PM   #16
abstract
aware wolf
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,104
abstract has disabled reputation
Default

morality =/= a statement

abstract is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2009, 12:20 AM   #17
Masa Escobar
︻╦╤─
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,762
Masa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is Ascendant
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sif View Post
There is no paradox. The above is not a moral claim, thus within the context of it's own terms it is possible to make such a claim.
True.

However, the basis of moral relativity states/implies that there are no absolute truths. Is this not a paradox in itself?

Masa Escobar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2009, 12:22 AM   #18
Jello Biafra
Now Look What You Made Me Do
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur quantum box...maybe
Posts: 8,311
Blog Entries: 6
Jello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareil
Send a message via MSN to Jello Biafra
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masanari View Post
True.

However, the basis of moral relativity states/implies that there are no absolute truths. Is this not a paradox in itself?
Not necessarily. Moral relativism merely states that there are no absolute moral truths. Such a statement is not a moral claim.

Jello Biafra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2009, 12:35 AM   #19
Masa Escobar
︻╦╤─
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,762
Masa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is AscendantMasa Escobar is Ascendant
Default

I am not disagreeing with you, I am just trying to fully understand.

Ok a moral defines what is right or wrong. In a jist, the statement is not right or wrong, rather, depends on its relativity to the person. No?

Masa Escobar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2009, 12:39 AM   #20
Jello Biafra
Now Look What You Made Me Do
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur quantum box...maybe
Posts: 8,311
Blog Entries: 6
Jello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareilJello Biafra est le sans pareil
Send a message via MSN to Jello Biafra
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masanari View Post
I am not disagreeing with you, I am just trying to fully understand.

Ok a moral defines what is right or wrong. In a jist, the statement is not right or wrong, rather, depends on its relativity to the person. No?
Basically. A moral defines truth while a statement defines fact.

Jello Biafra is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump
Quick Style Chooser


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.    

Design(s) Provided By: Neado Designs

Lifetricks.com Bestlifehacks.org Ben10-games.org
Spiderman-games.com Buyanewcase.com Addicting Games