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Old 01-07-2009, 12:25 AM   #1
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Default Power of the Rinnegan? The Real Deal.

Thanks to the extreme dearth of readable threads in the library these days, I thought I'd take a crack at making something provocative.

So here's my take on the powers of the Rinnegan as we know them so far.

Pay attention, it might not be what you're expecting.



The Powers of the Rinnegan


What are the actual powers of the Rinnegan, you ask?

Let's make a list, and start off slowly.



First off, according to Jiraiya, the Rinnegan allowed Nagato to master all six forms of chakra - presumably the five elements plus one other - perhaps yin/yang.

Good?

Okay, moving on.



Second, the Rinnegan bestows upon its possessor the ability to see spiritual energy and beings.

Here, we see Pain observing the spiritual barrier that surrounds Konoha:

Spoiler:


What suggests that this barrier is formed of spiritual energy?

Simple, with a village full of people who can see chakra with their doujutsu, we've never heard one mention of it before now. That's either a very strong coincidence or it's telling us something.

Also, the guys controlling the barrier wear Pope hats:

Spoiler:


This obviously signifies the spirituality of the barrier they maintain. (Keep in mind I'm only 50% kidding here.)


Moving right along, we have Pain being able to see the Hell King Enma with his Rinnegan:

Spoiler:


This is a being that cannot be detected by anyone else without it interacting with them specifically, much like the Shinigami.



Third we have... oh wait. There is no third.

That's it folks, that's all I've got for you.

Seriously.

Not convinced? Let's take a look:



Things That People Like to Pretend Are Gifted by the Rinnegan, but Probably Aren't


Jiraiya tells us that, as a child, Nagato expressed an unnatural aptitude for ninjutsu. The databook tells us that his hobby was creating and learning new techniques. Given the powers of the Rinnegan, he has an advantage over every other ninja in that regard.

Jiraiya does not tell us, however, that Nagato suddenly began manipulating the Six Realms of Metampsychosis.

He does not tell us that awakening the Rinnegan granted Nagato access to powers never before seen in the world of ninja.

He does not tell us that the Rinnegan comes equipped with a jutsu repertoire as the Mangekyo Sharingan does.

In fact, Nagato exhibits no signs of having inherited superhuman powers from his doujutsu in the three years that Jiraiya knows him.

Chances are, he didn't magically get his powers overnight.


The Six Paths of Pain



The Six Paths of Pain is a ninjutsu created by Nagato that we've all come to know and love (or hate, if that's your persuasion).

Each Realm exhibits unique abilities that seem to be well above the powers that normal ninja are capable of possessing.

On the face of it, these abilities seem like they must be powered by the Rinnegan as they are too powerful for a normal ninja to create.

But is that really true?

Let's break it down.


God:

God Realm's major power is control over gravity and repulsive and attractive forces:

Spoiler:


While this power is cool and - dare I say it? - godly, it has absolutely nothing to do with the spiritual nature of the metampsychosis theme that the Rinnegan seems to possess.

It's a fairly unique power, but it's not anything beyond what ninja should be capable of with ninjutsu. After all, the Third Kazekage had a power of a similar nature - the ability to manipulate magnetic fields.


Hell:

Hell is able to control the King of Hell - Enma - to some extent.

But remember, this isn't the first spiritual being we've seen used in battle or have a contract formed with it.

Spoiler:


Here we see Hiruzen use Minato's technique to summon the Shinigami - a spiritual being that, like Enma, is only visible to those affected by its power or, as I propose, a person with the Rinnegan.

So summoning such a being to do a ninja's bidding isn't limited to Pain or a possessor of the Rinnegan either.


Demon:

Not much to say here. The dude is a robot. Nothing spiritual about missiles or cannon hands or explosions, so I'll just move on. Okay?


Human:

Human can apparently read a person's mind at incredible speed or even rip the spiritual energy from their body.

Now obviously, no one would think to create a technique to rip spiritual energy from an enemy if he or she didn't possess the ability to see that energy in the first place. So while the Rinnegan perhaps persuaded Pain to create this jutsu, saying that it is gifted by the bloodline isn't really founded.

Second, we have Pain reading the minds of others:

Spoiler:


I think that Ino makes my point best here. Pain is simply using an advanced version of Inoichi's technique - nothing insidious or unbelievable here.

He just went about creating an interrogation technique to use and did a better job than the Yamanaka clan.

No surprise considering he's probably the greatest ninjutsu genius of all time aside from possibly the Sage of the Six Paths himself.


Beast:

This one is a bit tricky, considering how complex Pain's contract is.

One theory is that the contract is gifted to him by his bloodline.

I don't buy that.

I believe it's much more likely that he subdued the animals he can summon (we know that these mythical beasts exist in the real world, just as giant, toads, snakes, slugs, and salamanders do), and killed them only to be brought back through his chakra rod technique and used to create his own contract.

It's fairly obvious that - like the bodies of Pain themselves - the animals he summons are dead and controlled just as the bodies are. They can even share sight and possibly other senses with him as part of his Six Paths jutsu:

Spoiler:


Summoning is not an unexplainable ability. Pain just uses his summons in a different way than others. It's not that hard to understand.


Hungry Ghost:

Another easy one.

Sealing away ninjutsu has been around for a long time. I'm sure many of you can recall this memorable scene:

Spoiler:


Once again, Pain has taken an ability that is available to all ninja and has perfected it to the highest level possible - or that we've seen.

It's not inconceivable that a ninja with Nagato's prodigious skills can accomplish this.


A Bit More About Pain:

The abilities of many of the realms do revolve around their stigma in the tradition of metampsychosis, but that doesn't mean that they are granted by the Rinnegan at all.

Nagato simply chose the Six Paths as a theme and went with it, assigning abilities to the bodies as they were named.

It doesn't have to be more complicated at that.

Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima originally postulated that sharing sight was an ability of the Rinnegan, but I would argue that it is an ability of the Six Paths of Pain ninjutsu. Not only sight is shared. So are thoughts and presumably every other sensation. All they are is information being sent back to Nagato to be acted upon, after all.



Sage of the Six Paths?



So how does the Sage of the Six Paths come into all of this?

He created ninjutsu, and therefore most likely discovered chakra for what it is, right?

Right.

Spoiler:


As we know from the fancy chart, chakra is a combination of body energy and spiritual energy.

Body energy is sort of obvious here. It's physical fitness and stamina. Any old person could figure this out.

But what about spiritual energy? How do you learn to control something you can't see or feel normally?

Then along came the Sage.

His Rinnegan allowed him to detect the spiritual energy in his body and the bodies around him, allowing him to mold chakra and create the first ninjutsu.

This also helps to explain why Nagato can have so much chakra. Since the Rinnegan is intrinsically linked to spiritual power, Nagato has an immense amount of this energy - possibly more than any other human.

That, or he is simply more efficient in its usage since he is aware of it.



In Conclusion



In conclusion, we find that the Rinnegan's power is to attune its possessor to spiritual energy and allow him or her to use all six forms of chakra manipulation. Whether this is due to the connection with the spirit or simply a second ability, we can't be sure.

The Six Paths of Pain are not necessarily - nor even likely - a direct manifestation of the Rinnegan's power. More likely they stem from the amazing insight that Nagato has into ninjutsu thanks to his bloodline.


And thus, our study of the Rinnegan's powers is concluded.


Last edited by Howdy; 01-07-2009 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:38 AM   #2
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What about Pain's ability to share vision with other beings that possess the Rinnegan?
I believe it was mentioned as being connected to the Rinnegan, but it shouldn't technically be a power since there should only be one Rinnegan user at a time, as far as we know.

Good read, btw.

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Old 01-07-2009, 12:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by First Tsurugi View Post
What about Pain's ability to share vision with other beings that possess the Rinnegan?
I believe it was mentioned as being connected to the Rinnegan, but it shouldn't technically be a power since there should only be one Rinnegan user at a time, as far as we know.

Good read, btw.
All of them have chakra receptors which are definitely not part of the Rinnegan.

They are a part of the ninjutsu known as the Six Paths of Pain.

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Old 01-07-2009, 12:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Howdy View Post
All of them have chakra receptors which are definitely not part of the Rinnegan.

They are a part of the ninjutsu known as the Six Paths of Pain.
Wow, somehow I completely missed that part.
Sorry.

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Old 01-07-2009, 01:07 AM   #5
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Goddamn good thread.

For that matter,I am sure that you won't find another thread as good as this in the library nowadays!

Rep+

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Old 01-07-2009, 01:17 AM   #6
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good explaination of rinnegan howdy

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Old 01-07-2009, 01:25 AM   #7
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you do realize spiritual energy = mental energy

身体 Shintai Energy = Human Body Energy
精神 Seishin Energy = Mental Energy

精神 seishin = mind/soul/heart/spirit/initention

it's just your mind. nothing actually spiritual about it.

you create chakra by willingly converting stamina in chakra.



wilingly doing something means you used your mind.

and creating chakra is a bodily function. every bodily function is controlled by your brain.

so...

stamina + brain power = chakra
+
physical energy + spiritual/mental energy = chakra



spiritual energy is not a tangible thing. so that barrier around is made from chakra. it may be spiritually type chakra though. like how tayuya made chakra ghosts made spiritual type chakra. like it leans towards spiritual more than physical i mean.

so you're wrong about that part...

but i kinda agree with what you're talking about in a way...if that makes sense.

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Old 01-07-2009, 01:26 AM   #8
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nice read

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Old 01-07-2009, 01:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tari101190 View Post
-snip-
You do realize that the large chart you posted just illustrated the conversion of stamina to chakra, right?

It didn't touch on the spiritual energy aspect at all.

Every explanation of what chakra is we've ever been given has stated that it consists of two things - spiritual and body energy.

Spiritual energy is an actual force that acts as a component of chakra - not simply the act of willing your body energy to become chakra.

Sakura states that spiritual energy is gained from experiences and smarts, but we all know that's a complete load of crap.

How can you even quantify that?

How does Naruto, who doesn't come off as particularly bright and is certainly not experienced at the manga's outset, still have a massive amount of chakra?

This is before he starts tapping into Kyuubi, by the way. And don't give me crap about "he only has a high chakra because Kyuubi is always mixing." The manga flat out states that Naruto has high chakra of his own.

The way that "spiritual energy" is defined at the beginning of the manga is airy and rather lame. Frankly, it just doesn't cut it this far down the line.

There's something more to it than that.

This is probably the best thing we have to go on to this point:

Spoiler:


As you can see, just as body energy and nature energy are seen as actual forces used to mold chakra, so too is spiritual energy.

It's not simply willpower.

It's a quantifiable component of chakra.

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Old 01-07-2009, 02:04 AM   #10
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But there is no reason to assume that the barrier around Konoha is purely spiritual, or that it is invisible to other doujutsu. No one with a Sharingan or Byakugan has had a reason to point it out before, as it hasn't affected any important character. Lord knows it's taken hundreds of chapters for some of the most basic, obvious stuff about chakra to be told.

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Old 01-07-2009, 02:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howdy View Post
You do realize that the large chart you posted just illustrated the conversion of stamina to chakra, right?

It didn't touch on the spiritual energy aspect at all.
, so you didn't read at all did you?

Quote:
Every explanation of what chakra is we've ever been given has stated that it consists of two things - spiritual and body energy.
yes i know that, better than you do. they arn't literal 'evergies'. it's your stamina and brain power. look at the kanji used.

Quote:
Spiritual energy is an actual force that acts as a component of chakra - not simply the act of willing your body energy to become chakra.
yes it is. spiritual energy, is mind/brain energy.

身体 Shintai Energy = Human Body Energy
精神 Seishin Energy = Mental Energy

精神 seishin = mind/soul/heart/spirit/initention

that's a direct translation of what the manga states.

Quote:
Sakura states that spiritual energy is gained from experiences and smarts, but we all know that's a complete load of crap.
again, spiritual energy, is mind/brain energy.

Quote:
How does Naruto, who doesn't come off as particularly bright and is certainly not experienced at the manga's outset, still have a massive amount of chakra?
cos chakra comes from stamina and he has alot of stamina.





iruka says naruto lacks heaven/wisdom/spiritual energy and sakura is lacking in earth/stamina/physical energy. that's why sakura is agenjutsu type (a spirirtual jutsu). and naruto can use kage bunshin so well (a physical jutsu). genjutsu controlls your opponents mind/spritual energy.


and if you read the pics they talk about it.

stamina + brain power = chakra
+
physical energy + spiritual/mental energy = chakra



Last edited by tari101190; 01-07-2009 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:26 AM   #12
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I agree with tari,its being stated that the spiritual energy is the intent or will of the shinobi which binds the physical energy to form chakra.

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Old 01-07-2009, 04:58 AM   #13
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You forgot to add 'Pain' as one of rinnegans powers.

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Old 01-07-2009, 05:10 AM   #14
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I think the hell king is actually a jutsu of Pain's rather than a separate being since it has the rinnegan as well.

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Old 01-07-2009, 05:12 AM   #15
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Tari's right, but I believe the OP was trying to convey that it's take an equivalent amount of mental energy(brain power) to convert a certain amount of stamina into chakra.

So, if you wanted to convert 30% of your stamina into chakra, it would take 30% of your brain power. Mental fatigue has been shown to be an issue in the series, Naruto received all the mental fatigue of his kage bushins during his wind element/FRS training after he dispelled them. This caused him to collapse at one point.

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Old 01-07-2009, 06:15 AM   #16
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i really liked it.

but i think i have to disagree on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howdy View Post
Sage of the Six Paths?



So how does the Sage of the Six Paths come into all of this?

He created ninjutsu, and therefore most likely discovered chakra for what it is, right?

Right.
i don't that he dicovered chakra. chakra was there all along. people weren't able to mold it right, but it was inside of them, because chakra is some form of life-energy. [and because there is a chakra-system in the body it had to be there all along]

first there was only taijutsu. but then a sage came and with all of his wisdom he taught the people how to use ninjutsu (and genjutsu) with their chakra.

i think that's why the hyuugas don't use ninjutsu and claim to be the strongest. in those days before ninjutsu was known by the people and there was only taijutsu they were the strongest. because their taijutsu was the strongest.

Spoiler:
i wanted to make a theory about that on my own, but now i'm posting it here...


edit: i can't rep you right now, i'll do it later.

edit2: now i made a theory about it anyway.
http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=463524


Last edited by Ho-Kage-Bunshin; 01-07-2009 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:19 AM   #17
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Quote:
Tari's right, but I believe the OP was trying to convey that it's take an equivalent amount of mental energy (brain power) to convert a certain amount of stamina into chakra.
he wasn't saying that at all. he was talking about a spiritual energy being a catalyst for ninjutsu that the rinnegan user first discovered then taught everybody else. not realizing that spiritual enerrgy is just brain power.

rikoudou sennin gave birth to ninjutsu, not chakra. everyone could probably already create chakra and internally control, just not externally control it since you need to develop a chakra nature to do that, which is hard. a rinnegan user however automatically has every chakra nature so it wasn't hard for him.

it's also hard to release chakra from your body anyway. it was said even jounin can only release chakra from like 1 part of their body at a time. only the hyuuga can release chakra from their whole body at once.



so the power of the rinnegan is that the user has every chakra nature already.

and it seems they can see chakra as well, not intangible brain power/spiritual energy.


and it's annoyin how so many ppl say they agree with someone who just wrote stuff without even having an undestanding how things work properlly, who also shoots down ppl trying to explain it to him.

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Old 01-07-2009, 10:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala View Post
But there is no reason to assume that the barrier around Konoha is purely spiritual, or that it is invisible to other doujutsu. No one with a Sharingan or Byakugan has had a reason to point it out before, as it hasn't affected any important character. Lord knows it's taken hundreds of chapters for some of the most basic, obvious stuff about chakra to be told.
While I admitted in my original post that this may be true, I honestly don't believe that it is.

Ninja - even those without advanced doujutsu - have ways of detecting chakra. If there was simply a large chakra net extending around the village, someone would have noticed by now and found a way to undermine or go around it.

However, as far as we know, only Leaf ninja with prior knowledge of the shield have been able to work around it - or even know it exists.

It would be rather difficult when even the youngest Hyuuga could see it and blab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinAkuma View Post
I think the hell king is actually a jutsu of Pain's rather than a separate being since it has the rinnegan as well.
This had crossed my mind, and I am tempted to agree with you. Like Susanowa, this jutsu could simply be a manifestation of Pain's chakra and will.

Still doesn't mean it's a direct power of the Rinnegan though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tari101190 View Post
-snip-
Call it what you want - spiritual or mental energy.

The point is, it's an actual force. It's quantifiable.

Even Iruka says that Naruto should work to improve on his mental energy.

Now how the hell does that make any sense if mental energy is simply willpower?

Obviously, stronger techniques require more focus to use - more mental/spiritual energy.

Just because normal ninja don't have the means to measure or observe this power doesn't mean that no one does.

Those who possess the Rinnegan can interact with this power much more readily than those without, and can likely even see it with their doujutsu.


As far as the Sage of the Six Paths goes - I said that he discovered chakra - not that he invented it.

Obviously, people have been subconsciously making chakra since the beginning of time. They need it to live.

The Sage, however, was able to quantify the energies used to mold chakra and therefore was able to teach others to do so as well, even though they lack the ability to understand it as he did.

Just as people "discovered" that the world was round, the Sage "discovered" the existence, properties, and implements of chakra.


Last edited by Howdy; 01-07-2009 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:20 AM   #19
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The intent or force of will is indeed an actual force in Naruto like in other fictional verses.The spiritual power is dependent on two things,will and experience/knowledge.

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Old 01-07-2009, 11:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Call it what you want - spiritual or mental energy.
so you finally gave up arguing?

Quote:
Even Iruka says that Naruto should work to improve on his mental energy.
i know that. i posted the pic remember, in order to show you.

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Now how the hell does that make any sense if mental energy is simply willpower?
the reason why it doesn't make any sense to you is cos your theory is wrong. can't you see that yet?

mental energy refers to the brain power used when willingly converting stamina into chakra. it's not a tangible force you control to create jutsu. that's chakra.

saying it's an energy or force is fine but then ppl like you can take it too literally.

spiritual energy is like a laments term for 'force of will/brain power/mental power'.

Quote:
Obviously, stronger techniques require more focus to use - more mental/spiritual energy.


chakra and jutsu are 2 different things. you use energy to create chakra. and you use chakra to create jutsu. you don't use energy to create jutsu.

the energies have nothin to do with the requirements of the jutsu itself. more spiritual energy would just mean you create more chakra.

and please explain what a 'stronger technique' is. no where in the manga has kishimoto written about strength levels of jutsu. he's talked about difficulty levels though. and in general higher difficulty jutsu require more skill in the requirments for the jutsu, but unless you talk about a specific jutsu assuming it uses higher levels of intellect is...

rasengan doesn't require a high intellect. it requires a high level of keitai henkai (shape alteration). nothin to do with the spiritual energy used to create the chakra in the first place.

rikoudou taught everyone about seishitsu henka (nature alteration), since he could use all 6 types of it.

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As far as the Sage of the Six Paths goes - I said that he discovered chakra - not that he invented it.
he created ninjutsu, not discovered chakra.

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The Sage, however, was able to quantify the energies used to mold chakra and therefore was able to teach others to do so as well, even though they lack the ability to understand it as he did.
rinnegan gives the user all 6 chakra natures automatically. no need to learn them. normal ppl couldn't use ninjutsu cos they didn't know how to develop chakra natures. he taught them. and so ninjutsu was born.

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