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Old 03-17-2013, 10:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Just from the outside looking in...


You just said Viz is a trusted source.

Could they be wrong? Of course

But if it came right down to it and i had to put all of my money into trusting ONE source for all my translations, short of japanese man living in my closet i would choose Viz.

They are basically the standard for reliable translations.

Are they right 100% of the time. Of course not, no one ever is. But the fact remains they are one of the more reliable sources out there.

I think that they have earned the benefit of the doubt.

Also you keep saying that he refuses to look at other translations and is only accepting the one he likes.

Arent you basically doing the same thing by completely throwing out his source because it disagrees with yours?
Viz translations are wrong more often than not, we have takL here a native Japanese speaker who when he gets the actual japanese jump goes over it and points out mistakes if there were any.

Klue pointed out that takL a trusted native japanese speaker said that the Viz trans was wrong and that Madara said he couldn't use preta path or susanoo fast enough.

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Old 03-17-2013, 10:18 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke View Post
do you see susano after madara absorbs jinton?

this scan stands no matter how much you whine:
that scan makes it even more ambiguous, madara saying he couldn't absorb the jiton properly makes it sound as if he was still capable of using the preta path, just not "properly".

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Old 03-17-2013, 11:38 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Just from the outside looking in...

You just said Viz is a trusted source.

Could they be wrong? Of course

But if it came right down to it and i had to put all of my money into trusting ONE source for all my translations, short of Japanese man living in my closet i would choose Viz.

They are basically the standard for reliable translations.
Why, because you have to purchase their work?

Why not consider multiple translations, and when their is confusion, ask a translator to decipher directly from the original text?

The fact that even you admit their not right all the time is reason enough to check other sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Are they right 100% of the time. Of course not, no one ever is. But the fact remains they are one of the more reliable sources out there.

I think that they have earned the benefit of the doubt.
Doesn't work for a debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Also you keep saying that he refuses to look at other translations and is only accepting the one he likes.

Arent you basically doing the same thing by completely throwing out his source because it disagrees with yours?
No, I'm not.

For this example, I have read numerous translations from a few credible sources. Two interpretations exist:
  • Madara was unable to absorb the Jinton because of his Susanoo.
  • The clones Madara sent out with Susanoo are unable to absorb in time.

VIZ supports the first line of thought, which clearly doesn't work. A reader can simply observe each panel and see that VIZ's explanation doesn't fit with what's going on. The original Madara was not using Susanoo. But his clones were using Susanoo, weren't they?

Why would I give VIZ the benefit of the doubt?

Furthermore, I asked takL to further clarify, to see if the clones was unable to absorb because of Susanoo or not - as it's not clear. One could argue that Susanoo was used to further describe the clones in which failed to absorb Onoki's attack, not necessarily confirm a conflict between the two jutsu (Susanoo and Preta Path).

Though unsure, he believes that Susanoo wasn't necessarily at fault; Madara's words are pretty vague after all.

But even if we assume that Susanoo prevented the clones from absorbing Onoki's Jinton, then why did the original Madara fail to absorb the attack, when he wasn't using Susanoo in the first place? He had no trouble either canceling Susanoo before absorbing or absorbing Susanoo along with Onoki's Jinton a few chapters prior (as I pointed out in a previous post).

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke, simply refuses to even consider alternatives for obvious reasons. And after flagging me for trying to bring further clarification (from data gained through text and art), he goes on to do the exact same thing: "Madara is affected by clones using Susanoo."



Ironic, right?


Last edited by Klue; 03-17-2013 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:55 AM   #104
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Yeah looks to me like Shodai would still kick Madara's ass. If old man Oonoki can survive a meteor while nearly dead already and save hundreds of people too, then Hashirama can survive the fricking Sun dropped on him.

Kyuubi armored with PS is IMO clearly any Madara's ultimate jutsu (if you don't count Juubi). I agree Hashirama would still beat Madara. Madara may have some new abilities but Senju have 1000 jutsu. Hashirama doesn't even need Edo regen because he already seems to have Bijuu level chakra and can heal himself while fighting.

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Old 03-18-2013, 01:07 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Blaze Release View Post
You forget that, this current madara hasn't shown us his true strength, because he hasn't been pushed. Only hashirama stimulates him, so whilst so far the strongest technique this madara has shown might be susano, i would not put it past him to show us his true strength, if hashirama was to show up again
He did say his full power is perfect Susanoo and we got Hashirama's jutsu later in the flash-back that makes it look like shit, which already means Madara isn't capable to use that jutsu and the same can be said with other most powerful Mokuton techniques Hashirama is capable to produce

Quote:
I will disagree and say while madara has all the ingredients to use banbutsu sozo, he hasn't been hinted to have this jutsu. However he has been hinted to have izanagi, since he said to have taught obito uchiha's kinjutsu. Now we know that for perfect izanagi, you need the combination of both clan's dna or should i say hashirama's dna to be specific because it seems his dna, and only his is worth much. His dna, has shown to improve the sharingan's ability, like the reduction of time after ka use or increase time of izanagi. We know that madara didn't have hashirama's dna, before the fight and that is why he fought hashirama, to gain his dna.

Current madara now has this dna, along with him teaching obito uchiha's kinjutsu, he has a technique that is superior to susano. Complete izanagi, in obito's case his lasted 10mins or more, wouldn't be surprised if madara's would last longer. In any case 10 minutes of flat out invincibility where with every damage done to yourself its mere illusions and you re spawn will cause hashirama trouble. Complete izanagi isn't as straight forward to counter as perfect susano, its much harder and complex to fight, let alone figure out its workings
Izanagi isn't really as good in battle as many people think it is. You really think alive Madara couldn't use Izanagi? Yet he didn't in his fight against Hashirama were he almost died. Do you know why? Because he would lose one of his sight, and without it, bye bye Susanoo, Perfect Susanoo or other versions, bye bye whatever the technique he has in his right or left MS sight he sacrificed for it.

Izanagi is just a jutsu you use when you really is in desperate situation and has no other jutsu that can help you to survive. It's not for nothing that Izanagi users never(or rarely) use it in battles except if they are in desperate situation like Obito was against Konan. Danzo spammed it only because of the high collection of Sharingan he had and thought of the possibility of having new pair of eyes after his victory anyway(Sasuke's and Madara's), so he had nothing to lose in this case.

But Uchihas only have one pair of eye. Sacrificing it just like this and fail in the end, and the fight is already lost without your main powers, the rest of your life is lost and you will die eventually sooner a later in one of your next battles. In short, you'll become useless

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Old 03-18-2013, 08:27 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke View Post
do you see susano after madara absorbs jinton?

this scan stands no matter how much you whine:
You're using selective translation over actual logic.

Just like how people would fixate on Nagato saying he couldn't on his own, yet ignore the two feats against Bee and the one against Naruto as well as his mini steps towards the Hell Realm summon.

In this case you're choosing one translation which has been disproved, while ignoring the facts that Madara used the Preta Path with Susanoo active before and that Madara, the real one, didn't have Susanoo active.

The scan stands in one view, but the view that's generally wrong. Viz's translations also suggest Itachi and Kisame ran because Itachi wasn't able to take on Jiraiya. Should we believe that over the countless translations which've suggested otherwise?

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Old 03-18-2013, 08:32 AM   #107
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Stupidity has been described as - KNOWING the truth and SEEING the truth, but still believing the LIES.

And that's infuriating. Munboy I know your pain. That line of Madara's in that scan doesn't quite fit with what's going on, with all things considered. Don't know why some others are having a hard time seeing that :/

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Old 03-18-2013, 08:38 AM   #108
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No offense, but this topic kinda falls under the "No Shit, Sherlock" category......

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Old 03-18-2013, 09:39 AM   #109
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Madara said he let Oonki hit him. Wth are you guys arguing about?

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Old 03-18-2013, 09:52 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Im sorry...


WHAT?





Obito is no where NEAR Madara in SO many respects
You are wrong, terrible wrong. In fact Madara and Obito are close and have many of the same powers because Madara thought Obito a lot [1]

The difference is the mangekyo power and susanoo. But what use is something when it can't even hit? Obito was able to get behind Minato without him notice at the first and he is a sensor. Kamui, and it is over.

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Old 03-18-2013, 09:57 AM   #111
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zlad how old is u

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Old 03-18-2013, 10:54 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Zoan Marco View Post
I'm tired of hearing the "OMFG HE GOTZ RINNEGANS AND MOKUTON!!!" Here's all the evidence to why current Madara STILL doesn't beat Hashirama.

- Madara says that Perfect Susano'o is the peak of his power, this is current Madara.

- Madara still says that Hashirama is the only one that can stop him right now, this is current Madara.

- With Kurama fused with PS, Madara STILL lost to Hashirama.

- Current Madara doesn't have Kurama. I honestly don't give a shit about the if it's his real power bullshit, the point is that he had it back then and now he DOESN'T.

- Kurama > Rinnegan and Madara's "Mokuton"

- Madara's Mokuton pales to what Hashirama's Mokuton was. Madara's wooden dragon failed at constricting HALF of the Kyuubi.

- Hashirama has unlimited Chakra too, so he can probably even summon more than one of the one thousand hands.

- Madara doesn't have the firepower to fight the One thousand hands summon without the Kyuubi.
More damn hashirama fanning!!! Apparently you forgot that Hashirama could not even kill madara with only his powers alone. Which is why madara got away, got what he wanted all along (hashirama's DNA) and lived on to harass the shinobi world creating such hate mongers a Obito, Nagato, sasuke, ect. So tell me again what you consider a defeat and a Win?

Hashirama thinks he killed madara by only wounding him, but could not realize he was being duped and having his DNA stolen?

Or?

Madara getting wounded to achieve his goal and go on to almost realize his true plan...?

Not to mention, I would bet that madara was forced to fight hashirama the way he did in order to exhaust his regeneration ability in order to actually make hashirama bleed. Because the regeneration is limited by two things.

1). Dismemberment.
2). Lack of chakra to perform regeneration.

So by the first fight of uchiha vs senju, uchiha was not the weaker, only had a different goal. But, when you try and rationalize Edo hashirama senju>Edo madara/hashirama/nagato then you need to be committed.

Even Edo hashirama vs edo madara with only the EMS would be madara's advantage due to the power ups of edo tensai.

1). Instant regeneration.
2). Unlimited chakra.
3). Immortality.

Three things hashirama was already known for and his power were already known for which made him the god like shinobi he was. But, by granting the same abilities to madara, hashirama completely loses his greatest advantage and doesn't become much stronger by gaining abilities he already pretty much had already.

SO pretty much Edo tensai grants madara hashirama abilities with just the jutsu alone while giving hashirama abilities he already has which does not strengthen him. Although I would imagine the immortality power is actually greater then what hashirama had obviously, but still, hashirama is not really any stronger as an edo due to his already instant regeneration, almost unlimited chakra and immortality.

Making EDO madara more powerful through edo tensai, but not edo hashirama due to him already having the advantages that edo tensai offers. Meaning that Alone EMS EDO madara>Edo hashirama. Much less Edo EMS madara/RG nagato/Hashirama>>>Edo hashirama.

End thread/

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Old 03-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #113
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Hashi > Madara period.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:04 AM   #114
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Hashi > Madara period.
I call fallacy through ad hominem.

Judging by the fact that hashirama did not actually defeat madara in a one on one head on battle as once believed 300 freaking chapters ago, only wounded him, but still allowed him to get what he wanted in order to become the next sage of six paths. Hashirama's DNA! There is no logical reason to come to this conclusion.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:07 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Klue
No, I'm not.

For this example, I have read numerous translations from a few credible sources. Two interpretations exist:

Madara was unable to absorb the Jinton because of his Susanoo.
The clones Madara sent out with Susanoo are unable to absorb in time.


VIZ supports the first line of thought, which clearly doesn't work. A reader can simply observe each panel and see that VIZ's explanation doesn't fit with what's going on. The original Madara was not using Susanoo. But his clones were using Susanoo, weren't they?
Klue, what sense does it make to say that Oonoki's Jinton was soooo fast that the original Madara himself, who was standing very far away, couldn't simply activate Gakidou in time?

Madara is extremely fast, has sharingan, and Gakidou doesn't even require handseals.

Do you really think Oonoki's Jinton was that fast?


.....

I think the better answer here is that Madara needs to deactivate Susano'o in order to use Gakidou. He could not deactivate the Susano'os of his 25 clones fast enough to use Gakidou on himself, and that is why he got caught in the Jinton a little bit.

He was able to absorb Oonoki's Jinton here because he knew it was coming, but more importantly because he only had to deactivate Susano'o on himself and not 25 others.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:08 AM   #116
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Is this from VIZ's weekly release or volume release?

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:17 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Sage Ash
Even Edo hashirama vs edo madara with only the EMS would be madara's advantage due to the power ups of edo tensai.

1). Instant regeneration.
2). Unlimited chakra.
3). Immortality.

Three things hashirama was already known for and his power were already known for which made him the god like shinobi he was. But, by granting the same abilities to madara, hashirama completely loses his greatest advantage and doesn't become much stronger by gaining abilities he already pretty much had already.

SO pretty much Edo tensai grants madara hashirama abilities with just the jutsu alone while giving hashirama abilities he already has which does not strengthen him. Although I would imagine the immortality power is actually greater then what hashirama had obviously, but still, hashirama is not really any stronger as an edo due to his already instant regeneration, almost unlimited chakra and immortality.
Edo Madara stated Hashirama could stop him.

EMS Madara would NOT have the advantage as an Edo because he was only able to pose a threat in the first place because he had Full power Kyuubi with him. Now, he doesn't have Kyuubi, and no Edo perks nor subpar Rinnegan and Mokuton abilities will make up for Full power Kyuubi.

I'd suggest you start using actual statements and logic from the series to argue instead of living inside your head and posing the nonsense you dream of as valid reasoning.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:34 AM   #118
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Madara is able to to make 25 mokuton clones, all wielding the rinnegan and EMS not to mention respective abilities for each doujutsu but also the ability to act co-ordinately without madara's actual presence. Based on Mokuton's composition Pretapath will render it useless on contact and this goes for each clone. Madara has already stated that his EMS is able to see throuhgh hashirama's mokuton bunshin and also has the abilitiy to anticipate attacks.

Given that he has his edo abilities, he is able to use all the jutsu he copied from hashirama and possibly to the extents of shinshuusenju as Senjutsu only acts as an amplifier for the technique, and Mokuton itself possesses similar biological function to that of Jugo; given it's composition of course. Added to this, the rinnegan is a greater potential threat in comparison with the kyuubi, which hashirama himself stated was overwhelming. At the end of the day, EMS renders Bringer of darkness useless and Hashirama has no arsenal to counter Madara and his mokuton//rinnegan wielding bunshins. Hashirama canonically bested EMS Madara in his prime at high difficulties. His Edo-tensei form however is far beyond what he was capable of at vote; Madara would take this quite comfortably as he canonically has full knowledge of what hashirama is capable of.

Pertaining to the statement you've misinterpreted bear in mind that "Power" is the ability to do something. Uchiha madara based on power accomplishments; Perfect susano'o is technically his full power hence the statement but in this case the topic is his edo state, as in it, he is able to do much more and to add that it has been canonically stated that his edo-state is beyond his prime when he possessed this power, perfect susano'o. Which nullifies your argument.

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:54 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by shintebukuro View Post
Edo Madara stated Hashirama could stop him.

EMS Madara would NOT have the advantage as an Edo because he was only able to pose a threat in the first place because he had Full power Kyuubi with him. Now, he doesn't have Kyuubi, and no Edo perks nor subpar Rinnegan and Mokuton abilities will make up for Full power Kyuubi.

I'd suggest you start using actual statements and logic from the series to argue instead of living inside your head and posing the nonsense you dream of as valid reasoning.
No, you are missing the context. Madara said that hashirama is the only one who could POSSIBLY stop him compared to the level of the five kage's who do not have what it takes.

LMAO, you idea of reasoning is hilarious and made me pee a little, thanks allot.

Your idea is that the kyuubi which hashirama has the ability to control as easily as madara making it a very ineffective weapon against hashirama as it would be against madara>The power of nagato combined with hashirama.

You have fun with that reasoning.

Really, you are complaining about my logic and reasoning, but type out that turd of a repost which only proves how little you truly use reasoning and logic as well as clearly unable to understand the method of advantage vs disadvantage otherwise you would not ignore the fact that EDO tensai alone powers up madara, but does almost nothing for hashirama.

Let me try one more time...

Madara's abilities;
: SG genjutsu, tsukuyomi, amaterasu, susanoo.
: High level taijutsu, with high speed and brute strength.
: Large chakra level, but limited as well as stamina.
: (bijuu control) The kyuubi, but is as easily controlled by hashirama as it is against madara making it very ineffective and very likely to be turned agianst madara.

Hashirama's abilites;
: Huge chakra pretty much unlimited including stamina.
: Immortality.
: Instant regeneration.
: Wood Jutsu.
: Sage mode.
: Bijuu control.

EDO Tensai's advantage's.
: Unlimited chakra and stamina...
: Immortality
: instant regeneration.

Now, EDO advanatge's included.

Edo madara;
: SG genjutsu, tsukuyomi, amaterasu, susanoo.
: High level taijutsu, with high speed and brute strength.
: Large chakra level, but limited as well as stamina.
: (bijuu control)
Plus...
: Unlimited chakra and stamina...
: Immortality
: instant regeneration.

Edo Hashirama; Still the same!
: Huge chakra pretty much unlimited including stamina.
: Immortality.
: Instant regeneration.
: Wood Jutsu.
: Sage mode.
: Bijuu control.

Because Edo tensai grants advantage's that hashirama already has, ET does not really power up hashirama at all. But, with madara who does not have any of those advantage's. Madara is powered up given almost all of hashirama's abilities other then wood jutsu with just the Edo tensai jutsu alone making Edo madara already much much more powerful while hashirama is still pretty much the same.

Translation: Edo EMS madara>Edo Hashirama if EMS madara was too much for hashirama to actually defeat even with a bijuu he could easily control and turn against him. Much less the addition of wood jutsu and RG jutsu
combined with EMS madara's abilities.


EDIT: And again, in case you missed it. The Kyuubi was not an advantage against hashirama due to his ability to control it too. In fact, because hashirama could control it too, it became a liability which madara was forced to protect with his susanoo, not something he did to strengthen himself due to the fact Perfect susanoo already surpasses the bijuu including kurama.

So wrapping kurama in susanoo is like madara wrapping a lower level of susanoo in perfect susanoo which is unnecessary.

EDIT#2:
If you think that an Edo hashirama with no extra advantage's except true immortality, but something he already pretty much had is> to Edo madara who Gains all three advantage's that hashirama had, plus his abilities including the RG abilities making madara a true sage of six paths, but without the juubi.
And yet somehow some of you actually think that hashirama will stand a chance as if half the sage's power>all the sage's powers.

Yes,^^^ that is your reasoning here.
Just because Madara had the kyuubi before means nothing. The kyuubi is power hashirama can control just as easily as madara thus use against madara in combat as already seen making it an ineffective weapon against anyone with the ability to control a bijuu like hashi and mad's...

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Old 03-18-2013, 11:56 AM   #120
shintebukuro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltzofThePuppy
Pertaining to the statement you've misinterpreted bear in mind that "Power" is the ability to do something. Uchiha madara based on power accomplishments; Perfect susano'o is technically his full power hence the statement but in this case the topic is his edo state, as in it, he is able to do much more and to add that it has been canonically stated that his edo-state is beyond his prime when he possessed this power, perfect susano'o. Which nullifies your argument.
You're reading a shounen manga. "Full power" means it is the absolute best he has to offer.

All the extra things Madara has gained are weaker than his Perfect Susano'o. His Mokuton are not Hashirama's level, or else they'd be his "full power," and his Rinnegan techniques (all 2 of them) are also weaker than his Perfect Susano'o.

The statement about being "beyond his prime" is something you've misunderstood. Kabuto stated he completed Madara's BODY beyond his prime. It is a reference to the fact that Madara has Rinnegan in a young body. There is no reference made to strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Sage Ash
o, you are missing the context. Madara said that hashirama is the only one who could POSSIBLY stop him compared to the level of the five kage's who do not have what it takes.
You are twisting the context. Madara says the Kage stand no chance at stopping him, and only Hashirama is the person capable of doing so.

He never says "possibly." He states he can be stopped, but just not by them.

Quote:
Your idea is that the kyuubi which hashirama has the ability to control as easily as madara making it a very ineffective weapon against hashirama as it would be against madara>The power of nagato combined with hashirama.
Madara makes the Kyuubi fuse with his Susano'o, and Hashirama needed to fight it head on instead of trying to control it himself.

And all those extra powers Madara has gained have not added up to anything.

Quote:
Really, you are complaining about my logic and reasoning, but type out that turd of a repost which only proves how little you truly use reasoning and logic as well as clearly unable to understand the method of advantage vs disadvantage otherwise you would not ignore the fact that EDO tensai alone powers up madara, but does almost nothing for hashirama.
It's all speculation. It's all theory.

None of it ever stated or implied.

Quote:
EDIT: And again, in case you missed it. The Kyuubi was not an advantage against hashirama due to his ability to control it too. In fact, because hashirama could control it too, it became a liability which madara was forced to protect with his susanoo, not something he did to strengthen himself due to the fact Perfect susanoo already surpasses the bijuu including kurama.
The manga does not suggest any of this. Hashirama tried to neutralize Kyuubi with his Mokuryuu, failed horribly, and that's why he decided to fight it head on.

There is nothing suggesting that Kyuubi was a liability.


Last edited by shintebukuro; 03-18-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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