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Old 09-15-2012, 03:17 PM   #41
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It does when it's the only means of applying Keitai Henka to the flames. Why do you think C was making such a big deal out of it at the Kage Summit?

Why do you think Sasuke would name that specific application of Enton manipulation after the Shinto God of Fire, sibling to the trio of deities that Itachi's ocular powers are named after, instead of the power that allows it?

Kagutsuchi is that ocular power, bro.

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Old 09-15-2012, 03:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by SaiST View Post
It does when it's the only means of applying Keitai Henka to the flames. Why do you think C was making such a big deal out of it at the Kage Summit?
there is proof everywhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlinkST View Post
He's not "casting" Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. He's using his ocular power to modify the flames, which resulted in what he decided to call Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. Applying shape manipulation does not constitute a jutsu in of itself.

Kagutsuchi's ability IS to modify and shape the flames... the ability to apply shape manipulation IS the jutsu itself

jesus christ

Kishi wouldnt name it after a Shinto God if it wasnt an MS jutsu

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Old 09-15-2012, 03:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jacamo View Post
Kagutsuchi's ability IS to modify and shape the flames... the ability to apply shape manipulation IS the jutsu itself
Again, Rasengan example. Applying shape manipulation to chakra is not a jutsu in of itself, not was Enton: Kagu-tsuchi even described in that manner, or referred to in that manner. It's not a blanket term.

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Originally Posted by jacamo View Post
Kishi wouldnt name it after a Shinto God if it wasnt an MS jutsu
Not sure where that rule came from. Izanagi and Izanami aren't Mangekyo jutsu. Kamui doesn't have anything to do with Shinto, either. Kishimoto can call it whatever he wants.

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Old 09-15-2012, 03:46 PM   #44
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Blinx youre in crazy denial bro, making things needlessly convoluted just for the sake of Sasuke having Tsukiyomi and so you dont have to admit you were wrong.... i was wrong about Obito, so what? its ok to be wrong

IT... CAME... OUT... OF... HIS... RIGHT... EYE...
Spoiler:
this is all the evidence i need, twist it however you want youre still wrong


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Originally Posted by SaiST View Post
It does when it's the only means of applying Keitai Henka to the flames. Why do you think C was making such a big deal out of it at the Kage Summit?

Why do you think Sasuke would name that specific application of Enton manipulation after the Shinto God of Fire, sibling to the trio of deities that Itachi's ocular powers are named after, instead of the power that allows it?

Kagutsuchi is that ocular power, bro.
i agree with dat SaiST that is all, good day

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Old 09-15-2012, 04:09 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by jacamo View Post
IT... CAME... OUT... OF... HIS... RIGHT... EYE...
Spoiler:
Nothing came "out" of his right eye. If the word "Kagu-tsuchi" is preceded by the term "Enton", then it means "Kagu-tsuchi" is part of the "Enton" family. It's a derivative. A result. It's not called "Kagu-tsuchi". It's called Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. The same would go for "Youton: Youkai no Jutsu", for example. "Enton: Kagu-tsuchi" can't be the ability to create the jutsu and the jutsu at the same time. That lofty logic simply doesn't work elsewhere no matter how much you prop it up.

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Old 09-15-2012, 05:02 PM   #46
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It is preceded by Enton because that's what Amaterasu's all about: the creation of that Nature Release, purely Seishitsu Henka.

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Old 09-15-2012, 05:08 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by BlinkST View Post
Nothing came "out" of his right eye. If the word "Kagu-tsuchi" is preceded by the term "Enton", then it means "Kagu-tsuchi" is part of the "Enton" family. It's a derivative. A result. It's not called "Kagu-tsuchi". It's called Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. The same would go for "Youton: Youkai no Jutsu", for example. "Enton: Kagu-tsuchi" can't be the ability to create the jutsu and the jutsu at the same time. That lofty logic simply doesn't work elsewhere no matter how much you prop it up.
so now youre going with word play.... how very sexy

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It is preceded by Enton because that's what Amaterasu's all about: the creation of that Nature Release, purely Seishitsu Henka.
but not as sexy as you my friend

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Old 09-15-2012, 05:40 PM   #48
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so now youre going with word play.... how very sexy
No, that's what happens when you throw out terms like "logic" and "obvious" without securing your lofty tower. Let's summarize:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


When you see those names, you understand that there is a family of jutsu, because the element precedes the name of the jutsu. You don't tell yourself Suiton: Suikoudan no Jutsu is the ability to apply shape manipulation to Suiton, because that would be a pretty stupid thing to assume.

What you're basically saying is, Enton: Kagu-tsuchi is the ability to add shape manipulation to Amaterasu, and the result of that manipulation is also called Enton: Kagu-tsuchi. Really, that's no more baseless than the aforementioned example of the Suiton. Saying you think Kishimoto wanted you to think it's some kind of built-in Mangekyo Ocular jutsu is already baseless when you account for the naming scheme. If he wanted you to think it was a Mangekyo jutsu, he would have simply named it Kagu-tsuchi and never bothered attaching Enton to it. But the fact that he named it Enton: Kagu-tsuchi already tells you that Kagu-tsuchi is supposed to be part of a group of jutsu, and it can't be a catalyst. It's just a result. The preceding name means it was birthed from something, rather than it being the birther. Welcome back to logical thinking.


But when all else fails, please do kiss more ass

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Old 09-16-2012, 09:15 AM   #49
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Blinx, have we seen any other methods of applying Keitai Henka to Amaterasu's flames?

By using the naming scheme of Nature Release Ninjutsu in your attempt to denounce Enton: Kagutsuchi as the ocular power of Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan, you're inadvertently defying the definition of "Enton" you presented in your opening post.

You agree that the "Nature Release" depicts the actual element—the recomposed chakra that is used for subsequent technique(s), not the ability to manipulate it as you described Enton before. What is so jarring about the concept of Amaterasu being the catalyst of this "Enton"–the act of Seishitsu Henka to create it–and any manipulation applied to it being represented as Kagutsuchi?

Forgot about this:

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Originally Posted by DonutKid View Post
what i meant was, does amaterasu travels at the speed of light in theory?
Most likely not.

No—certainly not.

If Amaterasu cast it's Enton that fast, A wouldn't have been able to dodge it. Nor would the poor Samurai that was struck by the flames in A's place been able to take some kind of notice of their approach the moment before they made contact.

Amaterasu is nigh-unavoidable due to the speed in which it's flames make contact with the caster's focal point, but it's not absolute.

Quote:
i suppose itachi turned off amaterasu, because the flames should engulf sasuke completely it he didn't turn off.
Right. As I said, that would have to be the case for things to stay consistent. But due to the manner in which the Juuin, and Orochimaru-style Kawarimi function, it's possible that a portion of the Kawarimi was somehow detached to prevent the flames from consuming the upper half; this is what I was trying to suggest earlier.

What Sasuke did to accomplish this could have been completely within Itachi's expectations, as he was aware of this technique's capabilities, and had no intention to kill his little brother... Thus, again, it cannot be said for certain that Itachi "extinguished" the flames of Amaterasu as Sasuke has done with the ocular power of his right Mangekyou Sharingan.

It simply wouldn't make sense for Sasuke to be making such a big deal out of it, questioning if it was his ocular power, had that been the case.

Quote:
also, zetsu was on the battlefield, witnessing the battle. i'm pretty sure he can analyse the battle better than us.
I'm not contesting what Zetsu said, but rather clarifying it. He did not claim that Amaterasu's flames were "extinguished" for Itachi to preserve Sasuke's eyes, but that Itachi stopped using the technique, and was proceeding to go for Sasuke's eyes.

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Old 09-16-2012, 11:23 AM   #50
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Great read blink but i disagree with the gist of it. How exactly is enton: kagutsuchi not an enton? You can't just dismiss the core nomenclature of jutsu in this manga so casually. Enton is not simply 'blaze' as you would have it, it's blaze release - a far more superior fire release. I need not point out the consistence nor the etymology with regards to other elements.

I'm of the opinion that the 2nd power usually involves mastery or unparalleled control of some sort. And i believe this applies to all uchiha

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Old 09-16-2012, 07:33 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by SaiST View Post
Actually, I believe the majority still think that Tsukuyomi was the ocular power of Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan.

But as more chapters pass without any of the Genjutsu cast from Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan being identified as Tsukuyomi, and more exposition of Kagutsuchi, more people are starting to see what's been obvious to us.
After Kabuto fight it's confirmed that Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi.
While Itachi used Tsukuyomi to free his brother Sasuke used a generic "Sharingan Genjutsu".

I'm sure if Sasuke had it, Kishimoto would point that with a big Tsukuyomi write in the panel. It also seems that he didn't inherit that jutsu from his brother's eyes.

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Old 09-16-2012, 07:58 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by grinninggrizzly View Post
Great read blink but i disagree with the gist of it. How exactly is enton: kagutsuchi not an enton?
Because the term does not refer to an elemental change. It's still a Katon. There's no literal Enton.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:Sh...u_.28p._289.29

There are 3 ways to create the flames.

1] Amaterasu
2] Enton
3] Susanoo

The first way, is igniting the flames at your focal point, which causes the eye to bleed.
Spoiler:


The third way, is through Susanoo, which doesn't cause the eye to bleed.
Spoiler:


The second way, is modifying an existing flame to birth new flames, without having to repeatedly cast the jutsu Amaterasu. Which is quicker? Repeatedly casting Amaterasu, or using one flame to fire several flames. That's Enton as far as what I can tell.


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Originally Posted by AoshiKun View Post
After Kabuto fight it's confirmed that Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi.
While Itachi used Tsukuyomi to free his brother Sasuke used a generic "Sharingan Genjutsu".
All that really shows is that Itachi is over-protective, and that genjutsu was not actually needed to achieve what was necessary. Unless we are to believe Generic genjutsu = Tsukuyomi

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Originally Posted by AoshiKun View Post
I'm sure if Sasuke had it, Kishimoto would point that with a big Tsukuyomi write in the panel.
Spoiler:


I suppose lack of the term "Tsukuyomi" means Itachi was not using Tsukuyomi at the time.

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Old 09-16-2012, 09:20 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BlinkST View Post
Because the term does not refer to an elemental change. It's still a Katon. There's no literal Enton.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:Sh...u_.28p._289.29

There are 3 ways to create the flames.

1] Amaterasu
2] Enton
3] Susanoo

The first way, is igniting the flames at your focal point, which causes the eye to bleed.
Spoiler:


The third way, is through Susanoo, which doesn't cause the eye to bleed.
Spoiler:


The second way, is modifying an existing flame to birth new flames, without having to repeatedly cast the jutsu Amaterasu. Which is quicker? Repeatedly casting Amaterasu, or using one flame to fire several flames. That's Enton as far as what I can tell.



All that really shows is that Itachi is over-protective, and that genjutsu was not actually needed to achieve what was necessary. Unless we are to believe Generic genjutsu = Tsukuyomi


Spoiler:


I suppose lack of the term "Tsukuyomi" means Itachi was not using Tsukuyomi at the time.
Pardon me, but I'm not understanding your argument. Are you suggesting Sasuke has Tsukuyomi but no access to the S/T aspect property of it?

If such is your argument, you do know the only thing that distinguishes them currently is the S/T aspect?

Sharingan genjutsu is the only none MS portion of the Uchiha arsenal which has improved with power scaling, and the difference between the big boys of the MS genjutsu world: Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami is it's ST aspect and ability to manipulate a shinobi without the victim being aware.

As we've seen sharingan genjutsu show case events, paralyze, knockout, manipulate shinobi's/none shinobi's, etc. etc....

There is little use in Sasuke having access to a Tsukuyomi without the S/T aspect, it'd be equivalent to the generic sharingan genjutsu.

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Old 09-16-2012, 09:38 PM   #54
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Great thread, but i disagree with the Tsukyomi part.
That jutsu is specifc to Itachi alone, since it showcased his ability with Genjutsu. It was the strongest and more fatal jutsu Itachi could. Similar to how Shisui had Koto to himself, and it was not seen in any other Uchiha.

Sasuke is not as able in Genjutsu as Itachi, and logically should not get Tsukyuomi. Sasuke does have his own Genjutsu, but it is not as potent as Itachi's due to their base skill.

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Old 09-16-2012, 10:10 PM   #55
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This page pretty much proves that Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/585/12 Let it go dawg its over.


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Old 09-16-2012, 10:19 PM   #56
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Let me suggest my angle:

If you've ever read Inuyasha, you'll know that at the end of the series he is given this technique called "Meidou Zangetsuha" which creates a big sphere of darkness (from his sword) that encompasses the enemy and sends them to the afterlife. Eventually he is able to use it to its true strength, which consists of the same darkness that will kill you if you touch it, but this time it's in the shape of blades rather than a sphere.

And the rationale for that was "A sword's true purpose is to cut."

I believe Enton: Kagutsuchi follows that same pattern. It is the ability to control the flames of Amaterasu specifically into blades, which is fitting because this ability's primary purpose is to attack the enemy. Flames that can cut as well as burn really reflect its offensive purpose much better.

Overall, Sasuke's right Mangekyou has the ability to control the flames of Amaterasu, but his "official" MS technique name is "Enton: Kagutsuchi" because it is the strongest form that the flames could ever be manifested into. It's given a Shinto God name to let us know it's the MS ability of that eye, but it's also preceded by "Enton:" so that we know it's a manipulation of an element (similar to Goukakyuu) and not its own separate thing.


TLDR; Enton: Kagutsuchi is Sasuke's official right MS ability, and that's because the eye has the ability to control black flames and Kagutsuchi is the pinnacle of Sasuke's ability to do so (making them into blades -- an even more aggressive and offensive form).


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Old 09-16-2012, 10:21 PM   #57
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I liked the entire OP until I got to the end. Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi. Give it up.

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Old 09-16-2012, 10:41 PM   #58
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I don't like that Enton comes from his other eye its a pretty underwhelming thing overall in my opinion.

The left eye makes the greatest Flames, all the right eye does is let you manipulate it better Lame. I would much rather it be a Genjutsu or something entirely different.

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Old 09-16-2012, 10:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Donquixote Doflamingo View Post
I don't like that Enton comes from his other eye its a pretty underwhelming thing overall in my opinion.

The left eye makes the greatest Flames, all the right eye does is let you manipulate it better Lame. I would much rather it be a Genjutsu or something entirely different.
Itachi is the only MS user that has shown radically different MS Jutsu. All the others have Jutsu that complement one another. Of course, we don't know of Izuna or Madara, but odds are that they follow the same pattern.

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Old 09-16-2012, 11:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by IpHr0z3nI View Post
Pardon me, but I'm not understanding your argument. Are you suggesting Sasuke has Tsukuyomi but no access to the S/T aspect property of it?
Nope.

10 char

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donquixote Doflamingo View Post
I don't like that Enton comes from his other eye its a pretty underwhelming thing overall in my opinion.

The left eye makes the greatest Flames, all the right eye does is let you manipulate it better Lame. I would much rather it be a Genjutsu or something entirely different.
Indeed. Itachi has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Shisui has Koto'Amatsukami. Obito has Kamui. Sasuke has Amaterasu and.. The power to modify the fire? Out of those 4 people, Sasuke is the only one who has a worthless eye.

With Itachi, you can get a strong ninjutsu or a strong genjutsu. With Shisui, it's a genjutsu. With Obito, it's a ninjutsu. Sasuke would be the only person who doesn't follow that convention. He'd be the only person who has an ocular jutsu that's dependant on another. That means unlike those 3 people, Sasuke's right eye is useless? Why? Because you still need the left eye to create the flames. Your right eye can't modify flames that don't exist.

Let's think for a moment about how reasonable the proposition is of suh a break in convention. Because if this thread is any indication, there are actually people who made sense of that.

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