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Old 07-08-2011, 04:41 AM   #1
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Default Why Rikudou's elder son and younger son were so different

I've been thinking about what makes the two brothers so different. Just why the two of them inherited so vastly different abilities from their father and why the elder fell under the curse of hatred which his descendants haven't ever been able to overcome.

The reason I've come up with is that it's because of Rikudou's state of mind at the time of their conception. I'm going to assume that the elder and the younger brother aren't twins, but that there is a bit of an age gap.

Madara's hype aside Rikudou Sennin was only a human. Just like Naruto he would have had to struggle with his own darker impulses and it's unreasonable to assume that he immediately mastered the control over the Jyuubi the second he became a jinchuuriki. He must have taught himself bit by bit to become a perfect jinchuuriki.
That means, just like with Naruto in the beginning the Jyuubi was preying on RS darker emotions and he may have at times lost control. Again just like Naruto. Only after some struggle did he learn the secret of "filling the vessel with love" Uzumaki Mito told us about and that's when he took complete control over the Jyuubi. However, he died before he could progress any further than Naruto is right now, a state where the Jyuubi was only dominated and hadn't come to an accord with its host like the Hachibi and B.

Now, what I propose is that the elder son was concieved before Rikudou found the secret of the filled vessel and the younger son after.
That way a part of the unpurified and poisonous chakra of the Jyuubi was passed on to the elder as was some of its hatred while only the exceptional lifeforce Naruto enjoys in his kyuubi chakra mode was passed on to the younger.
This would explain why the power of the Uchiha is rooted in hatred, why it's called a cursed bloodline, why the sharingan has the same tomoe the Jyuubi did, but which Rikudou himself didn't have, and finally why the Sharingan with all its upgrades can be considered equal to the Rinnegan and not inferior.

It also explains why the Uchiha always clashed with the Senju. The part of the Jyuubi inside them wants to destroy the love Rikudou passed on to the Senju side.

The lesson of the story is don't get a girl pregnant when you are carrying too much emotional baggage. XD

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Old 07-08-2011, 07:04 AM   #2
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lol, the "moral of the story " got me, epic man!!

aaanywas, Something like that might have happened but I doubt Kishi put too much thought on that subject...

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Old 07-08-2011, 07:51 AM   #3
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It sounds nice and its quite possible.

It may sound crazy but since its Naruto we're talking about i'll throw this idea into this thread...is there a possibility that Rikudou never had a wife but just "created" the two sons with Yin/Yang manipulation?If he did that, he maybe could decide what powers the son is "born" with.

Since the question always was how to achive peace?With might or love as the key?

With Rikudou Sennin having both, he maybe never knew what it was that made him capable of bringing peace to the world, his power or his love?

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:45 AM   #4
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or they had 2 mamas.

so it's a extended family feud!

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:54 AM   #5
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Maybe because one was born first and one was born last or maybe because one received eyes and the other received a body.

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Old 07-08-2011, 09:57 AM   #6
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Not bad, OP, not bad. +rep.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by KageMane200 View Post
It sounds nice and its quite possible.

It may sound crazy but since its Naruto we're talking about i'll throw this idea into this thread...is there a possibility that Rikudou never had a wife but just "created" the two sons with Yin/Yang manipulation?If he did that, he maybe could decide what powers the son is "born" with.

Since the question always was how to achive peace?With might or love as the key?

With Rikudou Sennin having both, he maybe never knew what it was that made him capable of bringing peace to the world, his power or his love?
I'd say that would be a bit unnecessary. Why would Rikudou create his sons like that? What's wrong with the regular way?

Oh and RS never brought the world to peace. That was his goal, but he never accomplished it.

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Maybe because one was born first and one was born last or maybe because one received eyes and the other received a body.
In case you missed it the point of this thread was to offer an explanation why they are so different and not merely to repeat what their differences are.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:55 AM   #8
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interesting idea. I believe that juubis dna had fused with rikudous and the elder son inherited some of juubis dna; hence the ocular powers. The second son inherited only rikudous DNA and therefore does not have any ocular powers and isn't touched by that 'tinge' of evil that the uchiha and the elder son are apparently cursed with.

I really like your theory though, the only problem would be explaining how rikudous state of mind would transfer to his yet to be born son. I feel the DNA explanation explains this transfer, but I like what you've come up with.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:08 AM   #9
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I like +rep aswell

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:35 AM   #10
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Nice thoery but I do suspect that the Sage of six paths made his own children.

That by taking his own power, he split them up into two children. So they would work together but with elder son with his chakra and spiritual energy he transfered traces of his own darkness and the Jubbi into the elder son.

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Originally Posted by bearzerger View Post
I'd say that would be a bit unnecessary. Why would Rikudou create his sons like that? What's wrong with the regular way?
Actually it is more convenient to use the power of creation. Why go through the trouble to find a woman if you can make children yourself? More so considering a lot of things can go wrong with the normal way considering how long ago it was.

I mean for one thing it pretty odd how the children's abilities were perfectly split up. That each is one side of the coin and together results in gaining the power of the Six paths.

It is similar to how putting together the Bijuu will result in the Juubi.

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:37 AM   #11
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That would make sense if RS was a woman and his chakra mixed with the children during the pregnancy (similar to what happened to Naruto). However, I doubt his sperm carried the Juubi's chakra or hatred, or whatever.

It could however be attributed to the way he raised them. If he raised the Eldest Son with bitterness and hatred inside of his heart, but then raised the Younger Son with love and peace, then there would obviously be both a personality and a jealously issue.

Overall, good theory. +reps

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Old 07-08-2011, 11:52 AM   #12
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interesting idea. I believe that juubis dna had fused with rikudous and the elder son inherited some of juubis dna; hence the ocular powers. The second son inherited only rikudous DNA and therefore does not have any ocular powers and isn't touched by that 'tinge' of evil that the uchiha and the elder son are apparently cursed with.

I really like your theory though, the only problem would be explaining how rikudous state of mind would transfer to his yet to be born son. I feel the DNA explanation explains this transfer, but I like what you've come up with.
You forget that the emotional state has a direct influence on the chakra. As Sasuke fell more and more into hatred his chakra became colder, Naruto's chakra is particular warm, but Karin and Bee both felt the darkness inside of him and the Kyuubi's chakra is so full of malice it's poisonous. And once the chakra is affected it shouldn't be a surprise if it affected the kid. Afterall chakra can do anything.

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Nice thoery but I do suspect that the Sage of six paths made his own children.

That by taking his own power, he split them up into two children. So they would work together but with elder son with his chakra and spiritual energy he transfered traces of his own darkness and the Jubbi into the elder son.



Actually it is more convenient to use the power of creation. Why go through the trouble to find a woman if you can make children yourself? More so considering a lot of things can go wrong with the normal way considering how long ago it was.

I mean for one thing it pretty odd how the children's abilities were perfectly split up. That each is one side of the coin and together results in gaining the power of the Six paths.

It is similar to how putting together the Bijuu will result in the Juubi.
It just doesn't sound likely that Kishi would have Rikudou resort to such measures. That guy is supposed to be the first beacon of light in a dark world and Naruto is supposed to step into his boots. Just like I don't see Naruto creating his own artificial offspring like that even if he had the power to do so I don't think Rikudou did. Such experiments are for those who have fallen into darkness and not for those who represent the light.


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Old 07-08-2011, 12:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bearzerger View Post
It just doesn't sound likely that Kishi would have Rikudou resort to such measures. That guy is supposed to be the first beacon of light in a dark world and Naruto is supposed to step into his boots. Just like I don't see Naruto creating his own artificial offspring like that even if he had the power to do so I don't think Rikudou did. Such experiments are for those who have fallen into darkness and not for those who represent the light.
Also why do you consider it "dark" and "artificial"?

Whenever you use sperm and egg or Ying/Yang release. The result is the same, it is life.

Like the Bijuus they are living beings with personalities, sentience and chance to grow on their own. They aren't lesser forms of life. Why wouldn't Sage love his children?

Also like I said don't you find it odd that the two children have each exactly equal half of the Sage's power. More so do you think that he only used that power to create the Bijuus at his deathbed? What else could have used the power of creation for?

Finally you cannot compare Naruto to the Sage. What the Sage did was start things his own way since he lived in another era.


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Old 07-08-2011, 12:57 PM   #14
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I approve of this theory.

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Old 07-08-2011, 01:11 PM   #15
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Also why do you consider it "dark" and "artificial"?

Whenever you use sperm and egg or Ying/Yang release. The result is the same, it is life. Or do you think l
Now wait a minute, you can't equate regular children with Rikudou playing god and designing his kids to his liking. Artificial insemination and all the other things of modern medicine are one thing, but there is a line people shouldn't cross. Why would he even think of doing that? That is something someone like Orochimaru would do. Rikudou creating his sons in such a manner just doesn't sit right.

Besides it's not as if a guy like him would have all that much trouble finding a woman.


Quote:
Like the Bijuus they are living beings with personalities, sentience and chance to grow on their own. They aren't lesser forms of life. Why wouldn't Sage love his children?
Children aren't really comparable to bijuu you know.

Quote:
Also like I said don't you find it odd that the two children have each exactly equal half of the Sage's power. More so do you think that he only used that power to create the Bijuus at his deathbed? What else could have used the power of creation for?
Of course I find it odd. Which is why I proposed this possible explanation.

Gee, I don't know, but as someone as wise as he was supposed to be he wouldn't just use that power on a whim. Creating the moon, dividing the bijuu and all those treasures he left behind is enough don't you think?

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Finally you cannot compare Naruto to the Sage. What the Sage did was start things his own way since he lived in another era.
Of course I can. Naruto is the final successor of Rikudou, he'll finally accomplish Rikudou's dream of ending the cycle of hatred and creating an era of peace and understanding.

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Old 07-08-2011, 01:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by bearzerger View Post
Now wait a minute, you can't equate regular children with Rikudou playing god and designing his kids to his liking. Artificial insemination and all the other things of modern medicine are one thing, but there is a line people shouldn't cross. Why would he even think of doing that? That is something someone like Orochimaru would do. Rikudou creating his sons in such a manner just doesn't sit right.
Creating life to have children of his own is "playing god".

So starting a new religion, calling himself the savior who will bring peace and order and people worshiping him like a god is fine?

Also it is easy to imagine he would do that. Either like many adults wanted children to raise to follow in footsteps and he created his children.

Quote:
Besides it's not as if a guy like him would have all that much trouble finding a woman.
Well it would be simple to find a woman to bear his child, that is true. though I have my doubts he could have a normal relationship considering his position in the world.

Quote:
Children aren't really comparable to bijuu you know.
Why not they have the same level of intelligence if not higher. Just because they aren't human doesn't change that.


Quote:
Of course I find it odd. Which is why I proposed this possible explanation.

Gee, I don't know, but as someone as wise as he was supposed to be he wouldn't just use that power on a whim. Creating the moon, dividing the bijuu and all those treasures he left behind is enough don't you think?
If he was so wise you would think he would have foreseen how his elder son would react to not being his successor.

Also all those reasons is why it is more likely he would have created his children. He is not a normal person and isn't limited by the average person's restrictions.

Quote:
Of course I can. Naruto is the final successor of Rikudou, he'll finally accomplish Rikudou's dream of ending the cycle of hatred and creating an era of peace and understanding.
I am saying in choices that they make. They are different people with a similar goal.

For example Hashirama wanted peace but he tried to kill his friend/rival which Naruto didn't do.

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Old 07-08-2011, 01:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by MaskedMenace View Post
Creating life to have children of his own is "playing god".
Using a jutsu to create human life from scratch exactly according to his wishes is pretty much the definition of playing god.

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So starting a new religion, calling himself the savior who will bring peace and order and people worshiping him like a god is fine?
When did Rikudou ever call him a saviour and when did he ever want people to worship him like a god? How about you show me where it says that in the manga? As for the new religion he started it was just a way of life which had spreading peace as its goal and not something which was used deify himself.

Quote:
Also it is easy to imagine he would do that. Either like many adults wanted children to raise to follow in footsteps and he created his children.
Raising children to follow your footsteps is a something completely different from designing your kids like that. Some creepy parents might actually want that, but Rikudou isn't supposed to be like those sickos.


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Well it would be simple to find a woman to bear his child, that is true. though I have my doubts he could have a normal relationship considering his position in the world.
Guys like Hashirama, Sarutobi and Minato found women who were able to love them, so why wouldn't Rikudou? And there really wasn't anything which would have precluded Rikudou from having a normal relationship with a woman.

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Why not they have the same level of intelligence if not higher. Just because they aren't human doesn't change that.
I repeat myself children aren't the same as sentient chakra entities.

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If he was so wise you would think he would have foreseen how his elder son would react to not being his successor.
I also said Rikudou was human, didn't I? And it's quite human for parents to overlook the failures in their children.

Quote:
Also all those reasons is why it is more likely he would have created his children. He is not a normal person and isn't limited by the average person's restrictions.
No, they are not. I don't know where you came up with the idea that Rikudou was this amoral megalomaniac mad scientist who thought just because he could do something he had to do it.

Quote:
I am saying in choices that they make. They are different people with a similar goal.

For example Hashirama wanted peace but he tried to kill his friend/rival which Naruto didn't do.
And I'm sure that Hashirama, if he saw Madara as his friend, tried everything he could think of to avoid having to fight him and that only when he couldn't find an alternative and he had the choice of either allowing Madara to kill many of his comerades and to destroy the peace he had worked so hard or to defeat Madara himself that he decided to do it.

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Old 07-08-2011, 02:19 PM   #18
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There are some very interesting points in this theory, with the main being the possibility that the Sage of the Six Paths was unable to control the Bijuu for a while, at first.This ,in my opinion, would explain well the creation of the Sacred Tablet during such a period of a Juubi's outbreak.

I dont consider the explanation regarding the brothers satisfying.It would be much more believable if Rikudo,or rather the Juubi itself,during a period of loss of control did something (i usually think of something similar to what Itachi did to Naruto)to the elder brother and therefore he and not Rikudo was the source of corruption.Besides so far the author has greatly insisted on that speaking through the Kyuubi about a curse.

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Old 07-08-2011, 02:21 PM   #19
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Good theory.

I for one thought that probably the jyuubi's evil chakra was inherited to the older son in the form of an eye. Which then formed into a sharingan that carries hatred and lust for conflict.

Probably by the time RS had his second son he was able to control the jyuubi and the DNA was reconstructed to adapt/stand the new jyuubi chakra. That DNA the second son inherited.

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Old 07-08-2011, 02:42 PM   #20
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Using a jutsu to create human life from scratch exactly according to his wishes is pretty much the definition of playing god.
Yet dictating how people should live by creating a religion and placing himself as its figurehead isn't playing god?

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When did Rikudou ever call him a saviour and when did he ever want people to worship him like a god? How about you show me where it says that in the manga? As for the new religion he started it was just a way of life which had spreading peace as its goal and not something which was used deify himself.
When Jiraiya said he started a religion and told everyone that he is there bring order and peace aka their "savior". That is the equivalent telling people to follow and worship him.

More so Madara said he was worshiped like a god.


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Raising children to follow your footsteps is a something completely different from designing your kids like that. Some creepy parents might actually want that, but Rikudou isn't supposed to be like those sickos.
Unless the power of creation involves molding sculpturing their personality,way of thinking, feelings etc. That the Sage made his sons as his living puppets.

However all I suggested that he created two male infants who have his powers except the elder son got the chakra and spiritual energy that had traces of the Juubi.

Quote:
Guys like Hashirama, Sarutobi and Minato found women who were able to love them, so why wouldn't Rikudou? And there really wasn't anything which would have precluded Rikudou from having a normal relationship with a woman.
Were they messianic figures who go around preaching religion? They were just leaders of a village.


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I repeat myself children aren't the same as sentient chakra entities.
Indeed they are made from different matter but both of them having minds and souls.


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I also said Rikudou was human, didn't I? And it's quite human for parents to overlook the failures in their children.
Indeed he is. Which is why also he may not see the follies in some of his actions.

Quote:
No, they are not. I don't know where you came up with the idea that Rikudou was this amoral megalomaniac mad scientist who thought just because he could do something he had to do it.
Again you assume that creating the moon, dividing the bijuu and all those treasures he left behind is enough.

I am not suggesting that he is a "amoral megalomaniac mad scientist".

Just that he did many things with his power which the the countless "myths and legends" about him the god of "creation" or "destruction".

Creating his children were just one of them.

Honestly given all of ridiculous things the Sage has been known for. This is pretty tame.

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And I'm sure that Hashirama, if he saw Madara as his friend, tried everything he could think of to avoid having to fight him and that only when he couldn't find an alternative and he had the choice of either allowing Madara to kill many of his comerades and to destroy the peace he had worked so hard or to defeat Madara himself that he decided to do it.
Sasuke and Naruto's relationship have been strongly paralleled to Madara/Hashirama. That should be an good indication if anything.

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