Naruto Forums: The first and best Hollie forum! - Conversation Between kisame123 and PikaCheeka
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Conversation Between kisame123 and PikaCheeka
Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 10 of 30
  1. PikaCheeka
    01-23-2013 10:12 PM
    Ah well. Looks like you're gone for good. You were fun while you were here. Good luck on your endeavors.
  2. PikaCheeka
    04-19-2012 03:15 PM
    Where be you lately?
  3. PikaCheeka
    11-13-2011 12:41 AM
    BUT he knew it wouldn't work. Did you notice how blase he was when he announced the war? He clearly didn't expect the kages to use the Jinn like so many bartering chips and annoyed when they refused. He had even LESS reason to believe that they would use themselves as bartering chips. Sure there was a slight possibility that the Sasuke plan would work, but I never got the impression he expected it to, nor do I get the impression that he cares that he didn't. The best parallel I can think of offhand (and it's a very bad one, so I do apologize) is applying to jobs or graduate schools. For the hell of it you apply to one place that you know you have maybe a .01% chance of getting into, and you not only don't expect to get in, but you don't care if you don't. Sure, if they accept you, that's great. But if they don't, it doesn't mean your plans are compromised and you have to go for Plan B. Tobidara's very obviously a warmonger and he got off to everyone panicking at his name. I have difficulty believing someone like him would have preferred the easy/quiet way out that would have avoided war. What he said about his "original" plan is extremely inconsistent with everything he said and did after the fact, which makes me doubt he really ever took it seriously.

    That isn't what you said though. What you said was: this is one thing that most don't notice, neither Madara or Itachi have demonstrated the ability to use portions of susanoo, effectively and efficiently in battle. Madara and Itachi have BOTH demonstrated this ability. If you were referring to arm-only, you should either have clarified or just not made that statement.

    Itachi's never engineered a fight based off his unparalleled intelligence? His entire fight with Sasuke was purely engineered. Hell, Itachi engineered eight whole years of Sasuke's LIFE. The guy is an absolute genius, both off and on the battlefield. And why do you also deny Itachi of having back-up plans? He has them when he needs them (but usually he doesn't need them). He had an unexpected counter to everything Sasuke threw at him. If something didn't work he'd just try a new route. The problem here is that you are trying to compare the battle smarts of someone who we have seen fight in several long, drawn-out battles to that of someone who typically curbstomps the second he walks onto the scene. Itachi has had ONE drawn-out battle, and it was the most contrived battle in the entire series.

    As for the "Sasuke hasn't shown EMS yet while Madara is already using Rinnegan, so Sasuke > Madara" argument, I don't buy it. Itachi ended up defeating Nagato even though he only had MS and died long before Nagato + Rinnegan did. IMO, neither Sasuke nor Naruto individually will be stronger or better than Madara. A final villain is shit unless he is significantly greater than the hero because there is no great battle at the end. Anyone who has read a lot of fantasy series or manga like this KNOWS that this is almost always the case. This manga is heavily based on emotions and ties. What will defeat Madara in the end isn't going to be just overwhelming power. Naruto and Sasuke will be stronger than him on a purely symbolic level because they have (or will have, in Sasuke's case), the WoF. This whole story has been slowly building up to show us that WoF > raw power, and that's been the case since chapter 1 when Iruka saved Naruto. You had a ridiculously weak character save the hero in a physically impossibly manner because he cared about him. That's just how these emotion-driven series work.

    I have started just skipping those Naruto posts by people, to be honest. After the whole "training" argument a year and a half ago, I decided it was 100% pointless to try to compare the two characters in the KL.

    Sasuke is a genius, and I'd never deny that, but I don't think he's a greater one than Itachi or Madara. He'll prove himself stronger than Itachi once he showcases EMS, but that's about it. Madara is experienced, yes, but I don't see how that takes away from his genius. At all. That's kind of like saying that my views on certain subjects don't count as much because I've had X more years of college than someone else. For all you know, I could have known more about the subject than the other person when we were both 14. The same goes for Madara. He's experienced, but you can't use that to gloss over any potential genius he has, and he clearly has a lot (just look at what he's done). I also don't think you can his fighting style has been dulled because he hasn't even started fighting yet. He's just screwing around and he's said this. He doesn't seem interested enough to fight yet.
  4. kisame123
    11-12-2011 05:51 PM
    Madara said he had originally intended to weaken the kages to point of capture and trade them. that way, he wouldn't even have to reveal the Moon's Eye plan and the five nations wouldn't have been so terrified into war. a simple bijuu swap would have been done by most countries, especially with pressure from ignorant daimyo. however, he has alternate plans, which can also further his goals, and he's planned for almost every scenario.

    the ribcage is something Itachi used as well, but Sasuke has demonstrated a full arm with muscles while maintaining the ribcage. it demonstrated his versatility that roots from his skill in using the jutsu. i'm not saying that Madara won't have that, but only Sasuke has shown it. as ribcage being used effectively, yes, but then again, anyone can use the ribcage as it's the most basic defense.

    I have to argue otherwise about the intelligence part. Itachi may have intelligence, but it only shows in foresight planning, placement of bunshin, and genjutsu. he has never "engineered" a fight based off his unparalleled intelligence and still have extra back-up plans left over to win fights. the fight with Deidara or even Danzou, really did a great job in differentiating Sasuke from almost everyone else in the manga. it took the most basic or subtle events or objects and turned them into dramatic victories. Madara has experience and Itachi has intelligence, but Sasuke's intelligence can compensate for that difference and perhaps be great enough to even overwhelm them. after all, Sasuke will come out with the EMS, while Madara is out with the Rinnegan. we both know who is going to have the better showing.

    I'm not biased towards Sasuke, the Uchiha are my favorite characters. as for now Madara is my favorite, but mostly because of his sick personality. I kind of vary between the three time to time. of course, Naruto is a total joke, I casually mentioned that because there was just some really stupid posts made by others in my mind at the time! however, what I'm trying to explain really is how the characters are portrayed and how Sasuke seems to be differentiated from not just the Uchiha geniuses, but even the non Uchiha. his "genius" really hasn't been matched. Madara has experience, but the overwhelming power has dulled his fighting style, it's made him a bit more relaxed and not as versatile or resourceful. Sasuke is weaker, but his cunning and intelligence forces him to be efficient and the results of his battles are truly grand.
  5. PikaCheeka
    11-12-2011 03:15 PM
    But he was also there to help Sasuke if need be, which he ended up doing. I don't think he ever thought Sasuke could win. I think he wanted to increase the feeling of unity amongst the Kages before stepping in. We know he WANTED them to get together and wage war against him now. After the Sasuke attack, they were already on edge and aware of the fact that some force was against them, so they were more willing to work together. The Sasuke thing seemed very much like a set-up to me.

    Madara used only the ribcage of his Susano'o just this last chapter (and it was used effectively and efficiently), so that is not a power unique to Sasuke. Along those lines, I'd be very surprised if he is unable to form armor on his Susano'o. It's a good theory but I think his is two-faced a) because of Izuna and b) because of his evil, as it symbolizes a more malevolent creature in Japanese mythology.

    the difference between them and Sasuke is that Sasuke is the greater genius. his tactics, strategies, and intelligence have far overwhelmed even his Uchiha brethren and people like Shikamaru.

    I REALLY disagree with this entire statement. It's undeniable that Itachi is far more intelligent than Sasuke is, and if Tobi is definitely Madara (which I think), then Madara is as well. As for tactics and strategies, that's all up for debate and I'm not big on battledome stuff. I do like Sasuke and he is one of my favorites, but I just can't agree with this.

    In terms of experience, I was comparing him to Madara and Itachi. He DEFINITELY lacks experience compared to Madara (most people do), and to a lesser degree to Itachi. Naruto is a joke and I have no real interest in bringing him into the discussion. tl;;dr I do agree with a lot of what you say. It just seems that you're overlooking some clear manga facts to make Sasuke above Madara and Itachi and you really have to be careful of that, not only when you talk to people who dislike him, but when you talk to people who LIKE him, too. Don't mean to come down hard, but I like all 3 Uchiha and it's frustrating for me when people constantly pit them against one another, especially when they overlook things.
  6. kisame123
    11-12-2011 12:37 PM
    I don't know, Madara seemed pretty insistent on sending Sasuke there. he wouldn't risk the lone survivor of the clan unless he was certain he could win. what I meant by countries was their kages, since they represent them as the strongest individuals. i understand he had a weaker genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he won't be effectively able to use it. after all, he placed Danzou, of all people, under a genjutsu. Raikage and others wouldn't have even noticed such a small placed genjutsu, resulting in a fatal outcome. Sasuke did not have the sword of totsuka (he may), but his arrows give him significant firepower.

    his masterful control over susanoo would have made him even more dangerous for Raikage. for example, Sasuke was able to use only the arm of susanoo as an extension of himself to grab Danzou and the speed and power at which he did it makes it a lethal surprise for someone like Raikage who needs to physically connect his attacks. this is one thing that most don't notice, neither Madara or Itachi have demonstrated the ability to use portions of susanoo, effectively and efficiently in battle. it saves a lot of energy and I believe is more combat effective. I won't be surprised if Sasuke only materializes the arms to fight during taijutsu and then fires arrows.

    nonetheless, Itachi would have the ability to end the fight in minutes thanks to the range and speed of totsuka, which is almost impossible to react to. I don't think Madara is finished yet with the EMS, but I theorized that he can't materialize armor in exchange for having two bodies instead to cover the weakspot in the back. the difference between them and Sasuke is that Sasuke is the greater genius. his tactics, strategies, and intelligence have far overwhelmed even his Uchiha brethren and people like Shikamaru. I believe this is one huge advantage he has to overcome the inexperience with the Mangekyou. however, he also has a lot more battle experience then we give him credit for. unlike Naruto, he wasn't using a chakra cloak that boosts all his stats, gives him invincibility and healing to fight Kages.
  7. PikaCheeka
    11-12-2011 01:29 AM
    Wipe out the KAGES, not the countries. You'd need EMS to take down 80,000 fodder due to limitations and blindness.

    But really, I don't think Sasuke could have wiped the floor with the Kages if his MS was as perfected as it was against Danzou. If he had Tsukiyomi at all there, which is incessantly up for debate, it was extremely weak, and IMO he would need that. Sasuke isn't experienced enough to take on five extremely powerful enemies at once without incapacitating at least two, if not three, of them via genjutsu.

    Could/can Madara? Yes. Itachi? Yes. Sasuke doesn't have the experience or temperament to pull something like that off yet though. It isn't just a matter of strength. Fighting five enemies at once takes a lot more than just strength. If it was a gambit and he fought them one at a time, he could probably do it though.
  8. kisame123
    11-12-2011 12:52 AM
    of course, but like we've seen, the mangekyou is really all you need to wipe out the five countries. just imagine, had sasuke's mangekyou been at least as perfected as it was against Danzo, the outcome of that fight would have gone "according to plan". gosh, i just love being right.
  9. PikaCheeka
    11-10-2011 10:56 PM
    His mental and emotional states factored heavily into Sasuke's performance, as well. Both Itachi and Madara are extremely level-headed (IMO, this bodes very well for Madara) You also have to consider that Madara has had far more battle experience, not just with MS/EMS, but as a whole.
  10. kisame123
    11-10-2011 08:27 PM
    well, I guess it's confirmed that a Mangekyou user (Madara, Itachi, Sasuke) is enough for five Kages.

    I knew I was right. Sasuke's poor performance was due only to his lack of experience with the Mangekyou.
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