Did Kankuro surpass Sasori?

Pages : [1] 2

Chibason
12-26-2011, 05:53 PM
I would say he has, or is well on his way to doing so, if not.

Kanki Is God
12-26-2011, 05:59 PM
I thought it was made clear that Sasori > Edo Sasori?

Quikdraw7777
12-26-2011, 06:04 PM
I'd say:

HELL ------> NO


If the current time Kankuro fought against the Sasori that had battled Chiyo & Sakura, he'd get OBLITERATED.

Yes, you're right, Chiyo was about to fend off 70-80 puppets with her own. However, that came from a speical, Secret Technique that she herself devised. It appears that all Kankuro has in his arsenal are the old puppets Sasori himself used to play with, albeit with modifications done to them.

Honestly, the only thing I say he[Kankuro] has surpassed is the "human" Sasori, if anything.

Zaeed
12-26-2011, 06:05 PM
I believe that Sasori at his prime as he was in early part 2 is still stronger than Kankuro. Edo Sasori having pretty much no puppets and no puppet body was hardly letting him fight anywhere near his best. Kankuro won sure, but I think it'd be quite different seeing Sasori go all out along with having his puppet body.

Bart
12-26-2011, 06:14 PM
Sand Elder: "Sandaime Kazekage was by far the strongest Kazekage of them all. Also, his corpse was never found. That such a person could be defeated so easily, this was thought impossible."

End of thread :WOW

Reddan
12-26-2011, 06:30 PM
I'd say:

HELL ------> NO


If the current time Kankuro fought against the Sasori that had battled Chiyo & Sakura, he'd get OBLITERATED.

Yes, you're right, Chiyo was about to fend off 70-80 puppets with her own. However, that came from a speical, Secret Technique that she herself devised. It appears that all Kankuro has in his arsenal are the old puppets Sasori himself used to play with, albeit with modifications done to them.

Honestly, the only thing I say he[Kankuro] has surpassed is the "human" Sasori, if anything.
Sasori was weakened, but not as much as people are making out. He still had an invincible exploding puppet in Sai's brother and an immortal body, which could only be captured. He had the advantage from starting the fight hidden.

Kankuro was head of the ambush division. Placing him at close to the same level as the other generals. It is fair to assume he is in the same ball park as Kakashi, Darui and Gaara.

Kankuro did not just win, because he had superior puppets. Their exchange just showed he was out and out more skilful. In direct displays of puppet skills he consistently came out on top. He organised his troops better and gained the victory for his team.

More importantly Kishimoto has very limited panel time for a minor character. However, in this case he went out of his way to show Sasori was being outclassed and even had Kankuro confirm the statement. Not only that, but he then had Chiyo back up the claim later.

Rawri
12-26-2011, 06:34 PM
:wth

Whilst Sasori was using Sandaime Kazekage he could only use one puppet. Even his New World Order 100 puppets was being fought off for a while by Chiyo. Kankuro on the other hand has Sasori, Ant, Crow and Scarecrow. He possess the ability to use all of them simultaneously.

Sasori can use up to 100 puppets. He chose to use only the Kazekage at the time. His 100 puppets were indeed being fought back for a while, but it was Chiyo's strongest technique. I'm guessing Kankuro fighting with those 4 is his strongest technique. It pales when you compare it with White Secret Technique: The Chikamatsu Collection of Ten Puppets or with Red Secret Technique: Performance of a Hundred Puppets.

Intelligence and battle skill
Sasori was definitely the greatest puppet creator we have seen. He alone possessed the rather morbid ability to create human puppets. He created all of Kankuro's puppets, but when it comes to battle Kankuro easily outclassed him.
Hiding a puppet under the ground.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/8

Kankuro is a more 'sneaky' puppet master. He hides his puppets in the ground, waiting for openings. Sasori is more destructive, he defeats his opponents with an unrelentless assault.

Comparing intelligence just isn't right. Sasori created the puppets squads. He is the only person to create human puppets. He also is the only person to transform his body into a puppet. His intelligence is almost unrivalled in the entire manga, he's a genius.

And battle skill, Kankuro isn't on Sasori's level. Like Sasori himself said, 'the strenght of a puppeteer is measured by the amount of puppets they use'. Kankuro 4. Chiyo 10. Sasori 100 :datass

His Hiruko puppet defeated Kankuro's 3 best puppets without even giving trying. That was a while back though. He now has the Sasori puppet, and his skill has increased. But everything Kankuro is fighting with... Sasori created. Puppets Sasori deemed weren't worthy enough for him to use, since he created them and wasn't using them.

If we go by feats, Sasori killed the strongest Kazekage and took down a country :datass
Kankuro doesn't have feats worth talking about.

I don't think Kankuro is even close to surpassing Sasori. Maybe he will one day (the age difference is quite big after all), if he stops using Sasori's puppets. But for now, I don't think he's even close.

Karasu444
12-26-2011, 06:47 PM
No way in hell has Kankuro surpassed Sasori. There was a number of factors involved in the recent fight between them.
1. Sasori didn't have the puppets that made him so powerful (3rd kazekage, 100 puppets)
2. He didn't have his own puppet body
3. The fact that he was immortal when edo tensei'd hardly mattered, as he was pretty close to immortal in his puppet body
4. Sasori had rlly craptastic puppets, which he would lose control of as soon as his chakra strings where cut when he was edo tensei'd

Although in that fight, there was absolutely NO reason for the edo tense'd people to lose. If Deidara took advantage of his immortality and used C0 right away, Kankuro's whole ambush squad would have been obliterated in an instant

ceralux
12-26-2011, 07:28 PM
Not even close. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Sasori conquered an entire nation with his puppets and defeated the strongest Kazekage. The only reason why we're talking about this is because Kishimoto did a terrible job with Sasori and Deidara's fight. It was by far the biggest trolling he's given to any of his characters.

Skywalker
12-26-2011, 07:29 PM
Not even close.

gina24
12-26-2011, 08:03 PM
When Kankuro faced off against Sasori not many felt he had a chance. Even in the end when he won, I did not really by his claim he had surpassed the master of the Red Sand. Recently I reread the fight and I have changed my mind.

Better Puppets
This would have to go to Sasori, who has the slight advantage, but it is not as great as people like to think. Whilst Sasori was using Sandaime Kazekage he could only use one puppet. Even his New World Order 100 puppets was being fought off for a while by Chiyo. Kankuro on the other hand has Sasori, Ant, Crow and Scarecrow. He possess the ability to use all of them simultaneously.

Intelligence and battle skill
Sasori was definitely the greatest puppet creator we have seen. He alone possessed the rather morbid ability to create human puppets. He created all of Kankuro's puppets, but when it comes to battle Kankuro easily outclassed him.
Hiding a puppet under the ground.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/8

Having the skill to connect his threads to Sasori's and pull him down.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/3

Then finally as soon as Sasori knocked of balance he captured him.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/15

Conclusion

Now we can argue all we want about how Sasori was weakened and this is true. He did not have his usual puppets or his body. Nor was he motivated, yet this denies the point Kishimoto wanted to drive home. He wanted to show us Sasori had been surpassed. Kankuro was able to control MORE high level top puppets. Kankuro was able to control puppets from underground, Kankuro had the skill to attach his chakra threads to Sasor's. It was a small fight meant to highlight the skills of all the rookies including Sai and Omoi, but the message and intent is still clear. Kankuro had taken the VERY best of Sasori, added to it and surpassed him.

Here's a better question - Do u think kankuro will be feared if he were a member of the akatsuki?

Naruto could train konohamaru to pebble the shit out of kankuro the way sasuke did in part 1 while laughing himself off to ichiraku's

Kankuro is a sasori wanna be. To say he's surpassed sasori is a verbal error that needs to be fixed. Seriously, Kantaro? i mean kankuro?

Octavian
12-26-2011, 08:06 PM
kankuro is the ground, sasori is the sky.

Delicious
12-26-2011, 08:12 PM
I doubt he could beat the Third Kazekage, so no.

Quikdraw7777
12-26-2011, 08:15 PM
Not even close. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Sasori conquered an entire nation with his puppets and defeated the strongest Kazekage. The only reason why we're talking about this is because Kishimoto did a terrible job with Sasori and Deidara's fight. It was by far the biggest trolling he's given to any of his characters.


^ Damn, I almost thought this guy was reading my mind.....word for word....

+reps

UltimateDeadpool
12-26-2011, 09:12 PM
Based on everything we know? No, Kankuro is a long ways off. It was even stated that a puppet master's skill can be measured by how many puppets they can control. However, Kankuro said he surpassed Sasori and that wasn't argued. May had been Kishimoto's attempt to make Sasori's prompt defeat more believable.

Gaius Julius Caesar
12-26-2011, 09:23 PM
Sasori was beat by Sakura.. So yes Kankuro already surpassed Sasori.
And that battle showed it.

Rawri
12-26-2011, 09:30 PM
Sasori was beat by Sakura.. So yes Kankuro already surpassed Sasori.
And that battle showed it.

:wth

First of all, Sasori wasn't beaten by Sakura. Sasori was beaten by Chiyo and Sakura.

Second, Sasori lost because he wanted to.

Third, even if Sakura did defeat Sasori, I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion that Kankuro is therefore better.

Fourth, it was a Edo Sasori. Sasori in his Edo state is useless. He's fighting without his puppets, being a puppet master. Also, he didn't even care about winning.

Octavian
12-26-2011, 09:41 PM
kishi did a terrible job trolling kakuzu, sasori, and deidara in the war. those three could have wiped out a few thousand of the alliance ninjas if used properly.

Cyphon
12-26-2011, 09:45 PM
No he hasn't. No even close.

Sinista Chakra
12-26-2011, 09:54 PM
Naruto could train konohamaru to pebble the shit out of kankuro the way sasuke did in part 1 while laughing himself off to ichiraku's



Real talk lolz

Blackout
12-26-2011, 10:03 PM
Maybe eventually, but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe Kankurō has surpassed Sasori right now.

Zaeed
12-26-2011, 10:25 PM
Sasori was beat by Sakura.. So yes Kankuro already surpassed Sasori.
And that battle showed it.


Sasori was beaten by Sakura + Chiyo. They had antidotes to his poisons, Chiyo had prior knowledge of his techniques. Chiyo did most of the work in the end anyway with her 10 puppet technique and using the parent puppets. If Sakura faced him alone she'd be quite handily defeated. Heck in the end he even allowed them to land a finishing blow.

I don't see how Kankuro can defeat the 3rd Kazekage puppet, 100 puppets and Sasori in his puppet body with anything in his fighting arsenal.

Kage
12-26-2011, 10:28 PM
it appeared to be implied to some degree but i don't find the notion believable in the least.

Reddan
12-26-2011, 10:40 PM
Here's a better question - Do u think kankuro will be feared if he were a member of the akatsuki?

Naruto could train konohamaru to pebble the shit out of kankuro the way sasuke did in part 1 while laughing himself off to ichiraku's

Kankuro is a sasori wanna be. To say he's surpassed sasori is a verbal error that needs to be fixed. Seriously, Kantaro? i mean kankuro?
This is the war where the young generation and Kakashi make their names. Kankuro was always very impressive and why is it hard to believe he surpassed Sasori? Sasori himself surpassed Sandaime Kazekage at the same age.

it appeared to be implied to some degree but i don't find the notion believable in the least.

Just, because you do not like an idea does not mean it is not manga canon. We have a couple of direct statements indication Kankuro surpassed Sasori. We have feats of him showing greater skill in virtually every part of using puppets and in addition greater battle intelligence.

Kankuro and Sasori are minor characters. We are not going to get several chapters dedicated to his feats. I think the author's intent for this fight was clear. Kankuro was outclassing and shocking Sasori at every turn.

Rawri
12-26-2011, 10:52 PM
Just, because you do not like an idea does not mean it is not manga canon. We have a couple of direct statements indication Kankuro surpassed Sasori. We have feats of him showing greater skill in virtually every part of using puppets and in addition greater battle intelligence.

No we don't. Kankuro saying 'I have surpassed you' means nothing :notrust He doesn't even know what Sasori is capable of. He fought his weakest form and yet still got crushed. I'd like to see Kankuro's face when Sasori brings out 100 puppets.

Kankuro and Sasori are minor characters. We are not going to get several chapters dedicated to his feats. I think the author's intent for this fight was clear. Kankuro was outclassing and shocking Sasori at every turn.

Yes they are. Maybe he was outclassed. But Sasori is a puppet master. Who did not have his puppets. That's like having Kurenai fight without genjutsu or Gai not being able to use taijutsu. They're useless.

Bart
12-26-2011, 10:53 PM
Sasori was beat by Sakura.. So yes Kankuro already surpassed Sasori.
And that battle showed it.

Sasori was beaten by Sakura + Chiyo. They had antidotes to his poisons, Chiyo had prior knowledge of his techniques. Chiyo did most of the work in the end anyway with her 10 puppet technique and using the parent puppets. If Sakura faced him alone she'd be quite handily defeated. Heck in the end he even allowed them to land a finishing blow.

I don't see how Kankuro can defeat the 3rd Kazekage puppet, 100 puppets and Sasori in his puppet body with anything in his fighting arsenal.

Precisely what, Zaeed, said :3

Chiyo was the only Shinobi alive that knew of Sasori's true abilities, save for Orochimaru technically; she knew him better than anyone alive and let's face facts what would have occured had Sakura not been aided by Chiyo, or the lack of preparation as far as antidotes were concerned?

Also many are forgetting that Sasori defeated himself at the end of the day :WOW

Reddan
12-26-2011, 11:03 PM
No we don't. Kankuro saying 'I have surpassed you' means nothing :notrust He doesn't even know what Sasori is capable of. He fought his weakest form and yet still got crushed. I'd like to see Kankuro's face when Sasori brings out 100 puppets.
Kankuro would know thoroughly what Sasori is capable of. He grew up studying and idolising him. After Sasor's death he access to all his puppets. I am sure he is aware of Sasori's power.

The Kankuro, who fought Sasori was at a huge disadvantage. He was not as experienced and was fighting someone, who knew ALL of his puppets techniques. Even still he gained high praise from Sasori.

Kankuro simply improved. Or do you think it is crazy how Chouji can now take on Asuma when he would have been killed at the beginning of part 2? Naruto take on Kakuzu or Shikamaru Hidan?

Yes they are. Maybe he was outclassed. But Sasori is a puppet master. Who did not have his puppets. That's like having Kurenai fight without genjutsu or Gai not being able to use taijutsu. They're useless.

This is just not true. Sasori had an immortal puppet, which could regenerate from any injury and could explode with a huge range. He even had certain advantages like attacking from a hidden place and an immortal body. Yet he lost ever clash of skill. This is what kishimoto wanted to portray to the reader.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/526/12

felizlombriz
12-26-2011, 11:21 PM
LOL .. not even close...
he was there just to help evangelize him

SaVaGe609
12-26-2011, 11:26 PM
It's obvious he has potential to, but at this point I doubt Kankuro would defeat Sasori on level grounds.

Sasori is Kankuro's benchmark. He'll surpass him eventually--Probably soon.

Sasukes
12-26-2011, 11:27 PM
Kankuro needs to fight more. We hardly see him doing anything big.

Zaeed
12-26-2011, 11:33 PM
Kankuro simply improved. Or do you think it is crazy how Chouji can now take on Asuma when he would have been killed at the beginning of part 2? Naruto take on Kakuzu or Shikamaru Hidan?



No I don't think any of those were crazy because those were fair fights where the villains could go all out. Asuma, Hidan and Kakuzu were able to fight at their best in those fights. Meanwhile Sasori was defeated without being able to access his 100 puppet army or his Kazekage Puppet which are massive parts of his fighting power at his prime. I'm not denying that Kankuro got stronger, which he did. I'm only disputing the fact that he can take on a full powered Sasori.

This is just not true. Sasori had an immortal puppet, which could regenerate from any injury and could explode with a huge range. He even had certain advantages like attacking from a hidden place and an immortal body. Yet he lost ever clash of skill. This is what kishimoto wanted to portray to the reader.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/526/12

He had 1 Edo Tensei body as a puppet, and a immortal Edo body himself. Most don't consider them equal to 100 puppets and the Kazekage puppet (with Iron Sand) in terms of fighting power. That is why we don't see Kankuro as having surpassed Sasori, when all Kankuro has beaten was a weakened Sasori.

Rawri
12-26-2011, 11:38 PM
Kankuro would know thoroughly what Sasori is capable of. He grew up studying and idolising him. After Sasor's death he access to all his puppets. I am sure he is aware of Sasori's power.

Kankuro simply improved. Or do you think it is crazy how Chouji can now take on Asuma when he would have been killed at the beginning of part 2? Naruto take on Kakuzu or Shikamaru Hidan?

No, no he wouldn't. He has never seen his 2 strongest puppet technique: The Third Kazekage and Red Secret Technique: Performance of a Hundred Puppets. He does NOT have access to all his puppets. If he does not know the power of his two strongest techniques, then no he is not aware of Sasori's power.
On the other hand, Sasori is aware of Kankuro's power. He designed every single puppet he's using. He knows how they work.

I have no doubts he has improved though.

This is just not true. Sasori had an immortal puppet, which could regenerate from any injury and could explode with a huge range. He even had certain advantages like attacking from a hidden place and an immortal body. Yet he lost ever clash of skill. This is what kishimoto wanted to portray to the reader.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/526/12

It doesn't matter. He did not have his puppets. A puppet master without his puppets is useless. He had to grab some random dude and fight. And he wasn't even caring.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/518/2
Look at Sasori! He's just sitting there, praising his opponent smile-big

Of course he lost. I never expected Sasori to defeat anyone. Sasori with puppets is extremely strong, but without puppets... he's not even jounin level I'm afraid. He's like Deidara without clay. I don't know what Kishimoto wanted to portray, but what we're sure is that Kankuro can defeat a Sasori without his puppets and who doesn't even want to win. Might be Kankuro's biggest feat so far :zaru

Reddan
12-26-2011, 11:59 PM
No I don't think any of those were crazy because those were fair fights where the villains could go all out. Asuma, Hidan and Kakuzu were able to fight at their best in those fights. Meanwhile Sasori was defeated without being able to access his 100 puppet army or his Kazekage Puppet which are massive parts of his fighting power at his prime. I'm not denying that Kankuro got stronger, which he did. I'm only disputing the fact that he can take on a full powered Sasori.
You do realise that Sasori's position was better than Chiyo's when she defeated Sandaime Kazekage. As for not going all out the same thing could be said about Kankuro. He did not go full out himself. If they fought with everything they had it would still be a close fight. They had a limited fight, but it was not enough to drive the point home. Ninjas do not need to go all out to assess the strength of their opponents.

He had 1 Edo Tensei body as a puppet, and a immortal Edo body himself. Most don't consider them equal to 100 puppets and the Kazekage puppet (with Iron Sand) in terms of fighting power. That is why we don't see Kankuro as having surpassed Sasori, when all Kankuro has beaten was a weakened Sasori.
Nobody is saying Sasori was at full strength, but he was far from as weak as people like to make him out. He had two human puppets and an immortal Edo puppet with a huge bomb. His position was significantly better than when Chiyo faced off against the sandaime Kazekage puppet.

Again it is not Kankuro beating a weakened Sasori, which makes him better. It was the way the fight was portrayed, the statements from characters and Kishimoto's intent. Kankuro was simply too good for Sasori in all the fundamentals. He himself did not have to go all out. A stronger Sasori would have made it a harder and more difficult fight, but the outcome would not change. Kankuro was simply too skilful and puppet wise not far behind.

Reddan
12-27-2011, 12:06 AM
No, no he wouldn't. He has never seen his 2 strongest puppet technique: The Third Kazekage and Red Secret Technique: Performance of a Hundred Puppets. He does NOT have access to all his puppets. If he does not know the power of his two strongest techniques, then no he is not aware of Sasori's power.
On the other hand, Sasori is aware of Kankuro's power. He designed every single puppet he's using. He knows how they work.

I have no doubts he has improved though.
Sasori's puppets were stored in his scrolls. Kankuro went and personally collected Sasori's body. He has access to all his puppets, which survived.

Sakura saw those puppets in action and is an ally of the sand. She would have passed the information along in the reports. It is what allies do.

Kankuro improved the puppets and added additional mechanisms to them. So Saosir does not know everything about them.

It doesn't matter. He did not have his puppets. A puppet master without his puppets is useless. He had to grab some random dude and fight. And he wasn't even caring.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/518/2
Look at Sasori! He's just sitting there, praising his opponent smile-big

He had puppets and one of them was immortal. I repeat Chiyo was in a worst position when Sasori took out Sandaime Kazekage.

Of course he lost. I never expected Sasori to defeat anyone. Sasori with puppets is extremely strong, but without puppets... he's not even jounin level I'm afraid. He's like Deidara without clay. I don't know what Kishimoto wanted to portray, but what we're sure is that Kankuro can defeat a Sasori without his puppets and who doesn't even want to win. Might be Kankuro's biggest feat so far :zaru
Sasori HAD puppets. He was using two soldiers and Sai's brother.

This was a war and had to be 'realistcally' played. Sasori had handicaps and this allowed for the fight to be finished quicker than it otherwise would have. However, the handicaps were not as big as made out.

Kankuro was portrayed to have greater skill and was comfortable outmanoeuvring, outhinking and plain outclassing Sasori in the use of tactics and threads. He then made a statement stating as much. Sasori does not reply and later on Chiyo seems to back up this sentiment.

The fight was to show Sasori had found a worthy successor. He finally understood what TRUE ART was about and to show Kankuro was now worthy as a Sand Leader.

Puppetry
12-27-2011, 12:12 AM
This is exceedingly simple: No.

Character statements of superiority, inferiority, etc apply to the current incarnations of all the statement pertains to. Sasuke flatly stated he was stronger than Orochimaru while he was bedridden, but later only attributed his victory to illness, not greater power than Orochimaru's vital form. Likewise, Kankurō's proclamation is correct; he surpassed Edo Sasori. The immortal piece of artwork that even time could not constrain? Kankurō will eternally dwell in his shadow or attain similar status by following in his footsteps. But then, I hear benevolent side characters don't convert themselves and their enemies into marionettes. Until then, I suggest Kankurō becomes acquainted with Sasori's shadow: it's supposedly a lovely place.

Butō Rengoob
12-27-2011, 01:02 AM
Has Kankuro surpassed Sasori as he was when he was a puppet and had access to his massive collection? No. Has Kankuro at least equalized himself in skilled use of his chakra threads? Yes. Has he surpassed Sasori as a leader? Yes.

Kankuro still has a ways to go, given that it could be argued that, at his age, he can control 5 or more puppets a time is testament to his growing level of skill. Not even Chiyo, who is the benchmark of a puppet master that has not gone to the body modification lengths that Sasori had, could control that many. Yet her Chikamatsu 10 were demolishing Sasori's 100.

Give Kankuro 5 more years and he'll rival Chiyo and if he's willing to turn himself into a puppet he will find himself alongside Sasori.

Samehada
12-27-2011, 02:04 AM
Kankuro has the potential now having Sasori has a puppet itself, but has he surpassed him yet? That answer is no, not yet.

Until I see Kankuro pull out 101 puppets all at once and use Gaara as a mechanical tool of destruction, Sasori will always be greater than Kankuro. :LOS

G Felon
12-27-2011, 02:45 AM
Kankuro is no where near Sasori in skill. Ok he beat edo Sasori when he had no puppets big deal. If Sasori was alive he'd rape him again , kankuros improvement makes no difference there's no way he could beat Sasori using the 3rd kazekage. Sasori has the ability to use himself if I did that he'd slice kakuro in half with his water jets or burn him and all his puppets down with his fire. Really? This shouldn't even be a question

raizen28
12-27-2011, 02:57 AM
First of all sasori let himself die.
2nd Kankuro is NO WHERE NEAR sasori

navy
12-27-2011, 03:06 AM
Personally, I think he did. Kishi just didnt show it well.

titantron91
12-27-2011, 03:10 AM
No question... Sasori > Kankuro > Edo Sasori without puppets

Reddan
12-27-2011, 03:27 AM
Personally, I think he did. Kishi just didnt show it well.
I think Kishimoto was fairly subtle, but got the message across. This is a war and he needed to show how ninja wars are fought. He had to make other characters like Sai and Omoi shine. Further more he had real life restraints like time on and the amount of space he could dedicate to side characters.
No question... Sasori > Kankuro > Edo Sasori without puppets
Sasori had puppets. He had three and one was immortal. Whilst the other two were shinobi allies of his enemies so they did not want to harm him. The first puppet could regenerate and had a huge bomb placed in him.

We never saw Kankuro go all out, because frankly he never had to. Sasori was not at full strength, but it was an easy victory for Kankuro. Chiyo and Kankuro definitely felt Kankuro was the stronger.

crisler
12-27-2011, 05:11 AM
i belive sasori was stronger than kankuro had they fought as they lived in their prime. it's like saying ms itachi vs ms sasuke though, becuz one earned its powers through the others death. (sasuke earned ms from itachi's death, kankuro earned sasori)


now when it comes to who's the better/greater puppeteer, it's slightly different case however i still believe it's sasori.

in sasori vs chiyo they clearly said that a greatness of puppets is decided by the numbers they can control. sasori could controll 100 of them while chiyo had 10? not saying their difference is that huge, but there still was a significant difference just like between sasori and kankuro

DemonDurai
12-27-2011, 06:22 AM
Sasori was beat by Sakura.. So yes Kankuro already surpassed Sasori.
And that battle showed it.

Don't say shit like that ever again!

DD

KAKASHI10
12-27-2011, 08:55 AM
This is KAKASHI10 reaction to this: Read left to right -->

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/3162/sasorifuck.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/sasorifuck.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

CM Pope
12-27-2011, 09:09 AM
I find it funny that people still downplay Chiyo's role in Sasori's defeat and also downplay the fact that Edo Sasori was under-equipped and unmotivated.

jgalt7
12-27-2011, 11:42 AM
that fight was a wtf moment for me.....seemed like sasori was talked into defeat. "the" sasori would not be beaten so easily. but it was a double insult to sasori, being controlled with the edo and seeing his puppet body being controlled by an insect he squashed.....that was also a wtf moment for him.

what kankuro surpassed sasori in is not power, but wisdom. which is why sasori stopped fighting and the edo self destructed.

Russo
12-27-2011, 01:21 PM
come on? serious? do we need 3 pages to figure out that Sasori is kage level and even naruto would have problem to defeat him? can we say the same about Kankuro? Naruto wouldnt even need SM or KM to pwn him.

Sasori - kage
Kankuro - Jounin
btw Sasori >>>>>>>>>>>>> Temari > Kankuro

Turrin
12-27-2011, 02:04 PM
Kankuro surpassed the Edo Sasori because Sasori believed he was stronger in his Tensei form and would have chosen that form to fight in due to his ideology over his previous form, which in reality was weaker, since Sasori did not have his puppets, something even Kankuro comments on. So Kankuro surpassed him because he understood that Sasori's ideology was mistaken & followed the right ideology of focusing on gaining stronger puppets rather than trying to make himself the perfect puppet.

Puppetry
12-27-2011, 02:56 PM
An intriguing thread, but laden with flaws.


Better Puppets
Whilst Sasori was using Sandaime Kazekage he could only use one puppet.

Unsupported assumption; it was never stated he could only utilize just the Sandaime Kazekage, and feats indicate otherwise. Sasori could concurrently manipulate two shinobi (http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+517+-+Omois+War&page=14&next=true) against their will, when it takes "transcending skill" to do so with their consent. In comparison, Chiyo expressed difficulty (http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+269+-+All+I+can+Do&prev=%3C%3C-+Prev&page=13) aiding a submissive Sakura with a single arm.


Even his New World Order 100 puppets was being fought off for a while by Chiyo.


What technique are you referencing? Satetsu Kaihō and Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen are two entirely different attacks, both of which were overcome by the combined efforts of Sakura and Chiyo. Nor am I sure what your underlying message is.

Kankuro on the other hand has Sasori, Ant, Crow and Scarecrow. He possess the ability to use all of them simultaneously.

Paltry when contrasted with Sasori and Chiyo's accomplishments.

Intelligence and battle skill
Hiding a puppet under the ground.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/8

The fruits of Kankurō and Omoi's tactics; they forced Shin to evade into an unfavorable position. This isn't solely Kankurō's accomplishment. If we analyze Kankurō's lone confrontation with Sasori, his vicious assault was gracefully eluded.


Having the skill to connect his threads to Sasori's and pull him down.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/3


Skillful exploitation of advantageous circumstance; Kankurō was hidden, could render his Chakura no Ito invisible, and Omoi provided the necessary opportunity.

Then finally as soon as Sasori knocked of balance he captured him.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/15

Opening and sealing Kuroari is not an astounding feat, nor did he generate the atmosphere for that occurrence. Sai should be praised, if anyone, as he circumvented and then sent both Deidara and Sasori sailing through the air.

This denies the point Kishimoto wanted to drive home. He wanted to show us Sasori had been surpassed.

Kishimoto illustrated and stated Kankurō surpassed Edo Tensei Sasori. Circumstance cannot be ignored to support your personal beliefs. Removing the entirety of his arsenal and replacing them with shabby imitations obviously impacted the outcome.

Kankuro had taken the VERY best of Sasori, added to it and surpassed him.


Sasori's ingenuity, puppetry skills, and diverse arsenal were his greatest attributes. Kankurō possesses a shadow of these aspects; he has installed various mechanisms, inferior to those Sasori placed; he has never subjugated a shinobi as Sasori has; his arsenal is relatively shallow, as opposed to Sasori's plethora of weapons.

He still had an invincible exploding puppet in Sai's brother and an immortal body, which could only be captured.

Invincibility and immortality must be supplemented with a potent skill set to be of use. Without them, capture is a simple task, as they have no means to defend themselves.

Deidara commanded the explosives, so Sasori had no control over his puppet's only real offense.

He had the advantage from starting the fight hidden.

Atop a large wall leaning over the edge is not what I consider "hidden," nor did he utilize this position to attack Kankurō. Conversely, Kankurō hung back and assailed Sasori when the opportunity presented itself.

Kankuro was head of the ambush division. Placing him at close to the same level as the other generals. It is fair to assume he is in the same ball park as Kakashi, Darui and Gaara.

Generals are not always similarly powerful, a fact your example accentuates; the disparity between Gaara and Darui is immense.

Kankuro did not just win, because he had superior puppets

Correct, he prevailed due to his opponent's lackluster abilities/supplies, arrogance, and his own exemplary support.

More importantly Kishimoto has very limited panel time for a minor character.

Character status doesn't necessarily correlate to panel time; despite Sasori's minor status, his battle lasted ten chapters.

Not only that, but he then had Chiyo back up the claim later.


"Good job" supports one notion: Kankurō did well. You don't need to surpass someone to do well, nor is Chiyo privy to the specifics.

Kankuro would know thoroughly what Sasori is capable of. He grew up studying and idolising him.

"Admiration is the emotion furthest from understanding." Kankurō didn't even recognize Hiruko, yet he's supposed to have intimate knowledge of Sasori's secrets, when even Chiyo was consistently amazed by his prowess?

After Sasor's death he access to all his puppets.


This is implied absolutely nowhere; no one states he acquired them, nor has he used them, nor are they held within the slots on Sasori's back.


You do realise that Sasori's position was better than Chiyo's when she defeated Sandaime Kazekage.

Elucidate, please.

As for not going all out the same thing could be said about Kankuro. He did not go full out himself.

Could it be said? Yes. Could it be said and supported with manga evidence instead of speculation? I'll gladly await the panels and reasoning before I answer my own question.

He had two human puppets

Which he never used against Kankurō, so what's their significance to this topic?

Sasori's puppets were stored in his scrolls. Kankuro went and personally collected Sasori's body. He has access to all his puppets, which survived.

I've no idea where those scrolls went and neither do you. Until they are seen in Kankurō's possession, they are not his.

Sakura saw those puppets in action and is an ally of the sand. She would have passed the information along in the reports. It is what allies do.


For what reason? Sasori is dead, so what's the point of such information? Presuming she did share her knowledge, why would it be with Kankurō? He is merely a Jōnin.

Kankuro improved the puppets and added additional mechanisms to them.

An extendable hand, explosives, and a Kikō Junbū are not notable additions.

shintebukuro
12-27-2011, 03:11 PM
This topic makes my brain hurt, which is consistent for Arednad. Sasori was stronger than the 3rd Kazekage...which puts him no lower than the likes of current Gaara.

Kankurou did not surpass someone who is near Gaara. He surpassed a super-weak version of Sasori.

Addy
12-27-2011, 03:20 PM
all i saw was one guy was crippled while the other was not.

Reddan
12-27-2011, 04:39 PM
An intriguing thread, but laden with flaws.
Unsupported assumption; it was never stated he could only utilize just the Sandaime Kazekage, and feats indicate otherwise. Sasori could concurrently manipulate two shinobi (http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+517+-+Omois+War&page=14&next=true) against their will, when it takes "transcending skill" to do so with their consent. In comparison, Chiyo expressed difficulty (http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+269+-+All+I+can+Do&prev=%3C%3C-+Prev&page=13) aiding a submissive Sakura with a single arm.
He has no feats of using the Sandaime Kazekage with another puppet. He actually was keen to end the fight and was utilising his best moves. This suggest it was beyong his capability.

Kankuro displayed a similar feat when he rescued the sensor from Sasori. Without consent he managed to control and save the guys life.


What technique are you referencing? Satetsu Kaihō and Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen are two entirely different attacks, both of which were overcome by the combined efforts of Sakura and Chiyo. Nor am I sure what your underlying message is.

I was showing how a skilled puppeteer using just one strong puppet was able to hold him off. Kankuro has greater skill than Chiyo.

Paltry when contrasted with Sasori and Chiyo's accomplishments.

Not paltry at all considering how strong each of his individual puppets are.

The fruits of Kankurō and Omoi's tactics; they forced Shin to evade into an unfavorable position. This isn't solely Kankurō's accomplishment. If we analyze Kankurō's lone confrontation with Sasori, his vicious assault was gracefully eluded.

Sasori had Deidara aiding him too. It was Kankuro's skill to manipulate a puppet, which was buried underground.

Skillful exploitation of advantageous circumstance; Kankurō was hidden, could render his Chakura no Ito invisible, and Omoi provided the necessary opportunity.

Again I repeat this was a team battle. The point of it was to show Kankuro was more impressive. In every direct comparison of skill he comes out on top.

Opening and sealing Kuroari is not an astounding feat, nor did he generate the atmosphere for that occurrence. Sai should be praised, if anyone, as he circumvented and then sent both Deidara and Sasori sailing through the air.
He had the skill to place them in the right place to be sealed. It is an impressive feat. His skill and tactics with the puppets surpasses Sasori.

Kishimoto illustrated and stated Kankurō surpassed Edo Tensei Sasori. Circumstance cannot be ignored to support your personal beliefs. Removing the entirety of his arsenal and replacing them with shabby imitations obviously impacted the outcome.

The argument is not that Kankuro defeated Sasori at full strength. This was obviously not the case. However, Kankuro showed he had greater skill and tactics with puppets. Kankuro himself was not pushed to go all out. It is similar to Naruto defeating Muu. Yes you can argue he had assistance, but at the end of the day the point was he could have won by himself. This is the message we are supposed to draw. The words from Kankuro only support this.


Sasori's ingenuity, puppetry skills, and diverse arsenal were his greatest attributes. Kankurō possesses a shadow of these aspects; he has installed various mechanisms, inferior to those Sasori placed; he has never subjugated a shinobi as Sasori has; his arsenal is relatively shallow, as opposed to Sasori's plethora of weapons.

Kankuro has great skill in trapping opponents. He is more creative than Sasori in the use of puppets. We do not know if his mechanisms are inferior to Sasori's or not. Kankuro had access to all the puppets Sasori left behind.

Invincibility and immortality must be supplemented with a potent skill set to be of use. Without them, capture is a simple task, as they have no means to defend themselves.

He had a self regenerating explosive puppet. There is no doubt Sasori was weakened, but this only explains why the fight was so quick.

Deidara commanded the explosives, so Sasori had no control over his puppet's only real offense.
Sai's brother had his sword as well. There is no doubt Sasori was not at full strength. This is not the point. When it came down to skill he lost out. When it came down to tactics he lost out.

Atop a large wall leaning over the edge is not what I consider "hidden," nor did he utilize this position to attack Kankurō. Conversely, Kankurō hung back and assailed Sasori when the opportunity presented itself.

Yes they were attempting the same tactic, but Kankuro was more skilful and succeeded. This is the way the fight is written. In every direct comparison it is Kankuro, who shines.

Generals are not always similarly powerful, a fact your example accentuates; the disparity between Gaara and Darui is immense.
Says who? Darui seems fairly impressive himself and has yet to show the full power of black lightning.

Correct, he prevailed due to his opponent's lackluster abilities/supplies, arrogance, and his own exemplary support.

No this is why he won so QUICKLY. The indication is that at full strength it would be a hard fought long battle, but Kankuro would still be the victor.

Character status doesn't necessarily correlate to panel time; despite Sasori's minor status, his battle lasted ten chapters.

No it does. Compare the amount of time Sasori has had to more important members like Itachi, Nagato, Tobi or even Kisame.


"Good job" supports one notion: Kankurō did well. You don't need to surpass someone to do well, nor is Chiyo privy to the specifics.

Again the specifics in this case are not important. This was not a battle where both men went full out. Ninja's do not need to go all out to judge each others power. They can tell from clashing with each other. Kankuro had very favourable circumstances, which enable him to win quickly.

"Admiration is the emotion furthest from understanding." Kankurō didn't even recognize Hiruko, yet he's supposed to have intimate knowledge of Sasori's secrets, when even Chiyo was consistently amazed by his prowess?

Good quote, but it is meaningless and untrue. Kankuro had access to Sasori's puppets and became the head of puppet division during the duration of part 2. He would have read the reports of the fight.


This is implied absolutely nowhere; no one states he acquired them, nor has he used them, nor are they held within the slots on Sasori's back.


It is implied when before the kage summit he tells Temari assembling his NEW PUPPETS in the plural took longer than expected. So he clearly took more than one puppet from Sasori's collection. We do not know how many he has, because he never had to go full out.

Elucidate, please.

Chiyo faced off against Sandaime Kazekage with just a human puppet and one arm. Sasori at least had both his arms, an immortal body, an immortal puppet. He was in a stronger position than Chiyo, but had a weaker showing.

Could it be said? Yes. Could it be said and supported with manga evidence instead of speculation? I'll gladly await the panels and reasoning before I answer my own question.

No it is fairly obvious he did not go full out. He did not bring out any of the other new puppets he had acquired. He did not use any move as powerful as the one he used at the kage summit. He didn't even use all of the Sasori puppets full arsenal.

Which he never used against Kankurō, so what's their significance to this topic?
My point was he started off with them. It was a team battle and it shows how Kankuro was outshining him throughout the fight.

I've no idea where those scrolls went and neither do you. Until they are seen in Kankurō's possession, they are not his.

Kankuro said he had new puppets in the plural. So he has other puppets he has not brought out. Since he took over Sasori's puppet body he probably took over the ones left.


For what reason? Sasori is dead, so what's the point of such information? Presuming she did share her knowledge, why would it be with Kankurō? He is merely a Jōnin.

Kankuro is a bodyguard of the Kazekage, the son of the former Kazekage, a leader of the joint shinobi army and the best puppet user in the sand. This is why.

An extendable hand, explosives, and a Kikō Junbū are not notable additions.
In your opinion, but Kankuro and the manga disagrees with you.

Ausorrin
12-27-2011, 04:40 PM
hell no .

Reddan
12-27-2011, 05:00 PM
Kankuro surpassed the Edo Sasori because Sasori believed he was stronger in his Tensei form and would have chosen that form to fight in due to his ideology over his previous form, which in reality was weaker, since Sasori did not have his puppets, something even Kankuro comments on. So Kankuro surpassed him because he understood that Sasori's ideology was mistaken & followed the right ideology of focusing on gaining stronger puppets rather than trying to make himself the perfect puppet.

This is correct, but it also reflected in real life. Kankuro was prepared to absorb what his predecessors had learnt and then add to it. Kankuro took the best from Sasori studied it and then added a few special touches of his own to make it better. His puppets were better, because they were a combination of Kankuro's and Sasori's souls.

It is the same with most other jutsu. Edo Tensei is a good example of this. Tobirama creates, Orochimaru takes it further, Kabuto takes it furthest.

hitokugutsu
12-27-2011, 05:36 PM
:giogio

What is this shit

Sasori > Chiyo > Kankuro

Sasori took out the strongest Kazekage in Suna's history, and now threads are made that Kankuro > Sasori?

Seriously, the dude was the most powerful Akatsuki after Nagato & Itachi. Deidara admitted inferiority twice, both Sasori & Oro thought they could kill each other (and since those mofo's were ex-partners they should be able to gauge each others skill, they probably thought that Kabuto would be the "deciding" factor in killing the other)
Took over a country, killed most powerful Kazekage.

Sasori's Hiruko form is like Itachi's genjusu. Without prior preparation you're dead. Props for Chiyo

Star★Platinum
12-27-2011, 06:05 PM
Unfortunately, if Kishi says Kankuro has surpassed Sasori, we have to take it as face value, it is afterall his manga, And his word is law. Do i think he should have surpassed him, or looks like he has surpassed him? No.

Wendson
12-27-2011, 06:18 PM
Hell no!!!

Chaotic Gangsta
12-27-2011, 06:21 PM
Hell to the El to the No! :giogio

Neo ShadoW
12-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Not a chance

Reddan
12-27-2011, 10:07 PM
It seems to me a lot of these response are not based on manga facts, rather they are based on how people would like the story to develop. People complain that the youngsters from the Chunin exam do not get their time to shine, but they really just want their favourite character to shine. I personally don't like Kankuro, but Kishimoto has always shown him to be exceptionally strong. There is NO reason to doubt his statement, which is supported by his superior thread skills.

Bitch
12-27-2011, 11:39 PM
He has yet to surpass Chiyo let alone Sasori.

Kiss
12-28-2011, 06:45 AM
Nope he hasn't. :lmao

tgm2x
12-28-2011, 06:46 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7XBpg04wk9k/TGhLLVEF8XI/AAAAAAAAAGo/aQ97bYjAHtw/s1600/No.jpg

Complete_Ownage
12-28-2011, 07:16 AM
Nope and I highly doubt he ever will

Turrin
12-28-2011, 10:56 AM
This is correct, but it also reflected in real life. Kankuro was prepared to absorb what his predecessors had learnt and then add to it. Kankuro took the best from Sasori studied it and then added a few special touches of his own to make it better. His puppets were better, because they were a combination of Kankuro's and Sasori's souls.

It is the same with most other jutsu. Edo Tensei is a good example of this. Tobirama creates, Orochimaru takes it further, Kabuto takes it furthest.
Until Kankuro shows that his version of Sasori's true body puppet can use the 100 puppet technique and shows he has a puppet as strong as Sandaime Kazkeage he is not as strong as Sasori was pre-edo nor are his puppets as good as Sasori's. I'll agree that he surpassed Sasori, but that was due to the fact that Sasori would choose to make himself weaker in the pursuit of the perfect puppet body. In terms of strength it seems like he is closer to Old Chiyo "level" rather than Pre-Edo Sasori, but even than he hasn't really shown anything on the level of Chiyo's Ten Puppet technique, Chiyo has better stats [though this could change in DB4], greater wisdom, & has medical Ninjutsu + her life giving technique on top of her puppet skills.

Reddan
12-28-2011, 11:08 AM
Until Kankuro shows that his version of Sasori's true body puppet can use the 100 puppet technique and shows he has a puppet as strong as Sandaime Kazkeage he is not as strong as Sasori was pre-edo nor are his puppets as good as Sasori's. I'll agree that he surpassed Sasori, but that was due to the fact that Sasori would choose to make himself weaker in the pursuit of the perfect puppet body. In terms of strength it seems like he is closer to Old Chiyo "level" rather than Pre-Edo Sasori, but even than he hasn't really shown anything on the level of Chiyo's Ten Puppet technique, Chiyo has better stats [though this could change in DB4], greater wisdom, & has medical Ninjutsu + her life giving technique on top of her puppet skills.

Firstly I don't get the impression that the Sandaime Kazekage was as strong as Sasori's puppet body. Next Kankuro himself confirms he has other new puppets and considering all his puppets came from Sasori it is decent assumption that he took more of Sasori's puppets. Thirdly quantity does not always overcome quality in a battle of puppets. Sandaime Kazekage was too much for the parent puppets. Whilst Chiyo though eventually overwhelmed was mowing through the 100 puppets.

Finally you yourself made a thread talking about feats in context with panel time and hype. Kankuro is simply not a major character. We have hype of him surpassing Sasori. We have feats of him having greater skill. We know his other puppets he did not use. Yes Edo Tensei Sasori was weaker, but Kankuro never had to go out. Until we get further information we have to accept Kankuro surpassed Sasori. I myself found it hard to believe this, but we cannot argue against the text. If Kishimoto clarifies later on then that is different. However, as of now we must accept that Kankuro is stronger than pre Edo Sasori.

King Scoop
12-28-2011, 11:10 AM
All that fight proved was that Kankuro > puppetless Sasori.

Reddan
12-28-2011, 11:15 AM
All that fight proved was that Kankuro > puppetless Sasori.

That's not true. It also proved Kankuro's basic skills with a puppet and tactics were better than Sasori. However even this in itself would be meaningless has Kankuro not STATED he had surpassed Sasori.

Uzumakinaru
12-28-2011, 11:18 AM
Sasori is strong physically but weak mentally.
This weakness defeated him on both fights.

King Scoop
12-28-2011, 11:22 AM
That's not true. It also proved Kankuro's basic skills with a puppet and tactics were better than Sasori. However even this in itself would be meaningless has Kankuro not STATED he had surpassed Sasori.

All it proved was that he is worthy of his Jounin rank. But where were Sasori's puppets? There's no point in bring him back without them. You can't claim to be better than someone, when they can't even put up a decent fight. The Sasori that fought Chiyo and Sakura would have murdered everyone in that group.

hitokugutsu
12-28-2011, 01:49 PM
That's not true. It also proved Kankuro's basic skills with a puppet and tactics were better than Sasori. However even this in itself would be meaningless has Kankuro not STATED he had surpassed Sasori.

Kankuro stating he has surpassed Sasori means shit. Hebi Sasuke also stated he was more powerful then Itachi, yet he wasn't even close and was getting played the entire fight

Statement from characters means shit, unless put into context

Fact remains that Sasori did not have his Puppet Arsenal when in ET form. And even then he was doing fine until Kankuro with combined teamwork "captured" Sasori

Also might I add, ET Sasori wasn't even finished at this point. He still had control over Shin, even when trapped within Kankuro's puppet. Sasori's control faded away after Troll no Jutsu had Sai talking to Shin, causing him to crumble

Lets be real here, Kankuro hasn't shown anything on even the level of Chiyo, let alone Sasori


Basing Kankuro > Sasori "because Kankuro said so" is nearly as annoying as claiming Jiraya > Itachi "because Itachi said so"

Put it into context first

Reddan
12-28-2011, 02:23 PM
Kankuro stating he has surpassed Sasori means shit. Hebi Sasuke also stated he was more powerful then Itachi, yet he wasn't even close and was getting played the entire fight

Statement from characters means shit, unless put into context

Fact remains that Sasori did not have his Puppet Arsenal when in ET form. And even then he was doing fine until Kankuro with combined teamwork "captured" Sasori

Also might I add, ET Sasori wasn't even finished at this point. He still had control over Shin, even when trapped within Kankuro's puppet. Sasori's control faded away after Troll no Jutsu had Sai talking to Shin, causing him to crumble

Lets be real here, Kankuro hasn't shown anything on even the level of Chiyo, let alone Sasori


Basing Kankuro > Sasori "because Kankuro said so" is nearly as annoying as claiming Jiraya > Itachi "because Itachi said so"

Put it into context first

I agree statements must be put into the appropriate context. We have to look at the characters involved, the knowledge they have and the what the author intended.

1. Personality of the character.
2. Knowledge of the character
3. Reason to lie
4. Authors Intent
5. Contradicted by another feat or statement

1. Kankuro oddly enough despite being cocky has had a fair understanding of his own power. Even when facing Shino he did not immediately assume he could win. So his judgement is usually good.
2. Kankuro would have had perfect knowledge about Sasori. He red up on him and had worked with some of his best work first hand. He knew just how strong Sasori was.
3. Again Kankuro had no reason to lie. He was winning the fight and had Sasori trapped.
4. This is very important. In the encounter Kankuro is shown to have the greater skill. He is one step ahead of Sasori. Kishimoto did not have the time or the inclination to write a full blown fight for the two.
5. I admit it seems unlikely that Kankuro grew that strong, but there is nothing to contradict it. His growth is no greater than his brothers or even Sasori before him. Other characters like Chouji and Shikamaru have demonstrated similar growth.

Hence we have to accept as of now that Kankuro is stronger. Later on we get more information revealing than Kankuro had not quite yet surpassed Sasori, but until then it is wrong to dismiss all the evidence.
3. Kankuro had no reason to lie

Puppetry
12-28-2011, 04:12 PM
He has no feats of using the Sandaime Kazekage with another puppet. He actually was keen to end the fight and was utilising his best moves. This suggest it was beyong his capability.

Correct; instead, he has superior feats of employing an advanced variant of puppetry on multiple targets against their will.

The correlation between the two is nonexistent. Sasori consistently increased his techniques' potency during his fight with Chiyo and Sakura. However, his infamous impatience hastened the process, causing him to skip several "steps" like using another hitokugutsu after the Sandaime Kazekage's demise.

Kankuro displayed a similar feat when he rescued the sensor from Sasori. Without consent he managed to control and save the guys life.

I'm not referencing basic movements such as tugging—novice kugutsutsukai can cause slight disruptions (http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+034+-+Intruders&page=17&next=true)—I speak of Sōen: Hitomi Gokū, which demands exemplary skill.

I was showing how a skilled puppeteer using just one strong puppet was able to hold him off. Kankuro has greater skill than Chiyo.

A skewed comparison, as Kankurō lacks the following:

Intimate knowledge of Sasori's offensive patterns.
Decades of experience.
Medical Analysis
A flesh puppet.
Skill superseding Chiyo's.

Yes, a sole kugutsutsukai can stall Sasori, but it was exceedingly difficult, requiring various advantages Kankurō doesn't possess.

Not paltry at all considering how strong each of his individual puppets are.

I was discussing technical skill, not the puppets themselves.

Sasori had Deidara aiding him too.

Again I repeat this was a team battle. The point of it was to show Kankuro was more impressive. In every direct comparison of skill he comes out on top.

He did, but all feats and actions I've sited were due to Sasori's abilities, not Deidara's intervention.

No, the purpose of this battle was to reinforce the theme of the new generation surpassing the elder; the effectiveness of teamwork, and to highlight Kankurō's growth. Because of this, a fair direct comparison is impossible; all of Kankurō's "feats" were due to the combined efforts of his team. He has no sole feats.

It was Kankuro's skill to manipulate a puppet, which was buried underground.

I've never denied this; I'm stating the success of this tactic was partially due to teamwork, not just Kankurō's puppetry.

He had the skill to place them in the right place to be sealed. It is an impressive feat.

As a shinobi, I would hope he could gauge distances and angles accurately and react accordingly. This is a rudimentary skill all reputable ninja must acquire.

It is similar to Naruto defeating Muu. Yes you can argue he had assistance, but at the end of the day the point was he could have won by himself. This is the message we are supposed to draw. The words from Kankuro only support this.

Again, I never contested this; obviously Kankurō can defeat Edo Sasori, as he has no weapons, especially if he were alone.

Kankuro has great skill in trapping opponents He is more creative than Sasori in the use of puppets. We do not know if his mechanisms are inferior to Sasori's or not. Kankuro had access to all the puppets Sasori left behind.

Kankurō's trap making is not exceptional. Distract and ensnare; simple, but effective.
Creativity? How so? Sasori has shown more creative license in both craftsmanship and application.
Kankurō has installed explosives, an extendable arm, and a Kikō Junbū. Contrast with Sasori's propellers, flamethrowers, Chakura no Ito generator, and extendable cables.

He had a self regenerating explosive puppet. There is no doubt Sasori was weakened, but this only explains why the fight was so quick.

Sai's brother had his sword as well. There is no doubt Sasori was not at full strength.

He couldn't control the explosives and the puppet, as you said, wielded a short sword no better than a kunai. Worse, actually, as it wasn't designed to be tossed.

Yes they were attempting the same tactic, but Kankuro was more skilful and succeeded.

No, Kankurō targeted the right person (Sasori, whose Chakura no Ito had just been severed and who can't detect invisible chakra) while Sasori dealt with fodder. Better technique had little to do with it.

Says who? Darui seems fairly impressive himself and has yet to show the full power of black lightning.

Precisely. Darui is "fairly impressive" and has displayed a single Kuroi Kaminari technique. Gaara has versatility, ingenuity, immense stamina, hype.... the list is endless.

No this is why he won so QUICKLY. The indication is that at full strength it would be a hard fought long battle, but Kankuro would still be the victor.

Strange, as this indication isn't found in Kankurō's speech to Sasori, nor is it anywhere else in the manga. Particularly the bold; you simply fabricated that.

No it does. Compare the amount of time Sasori has had to more important members like Itachi, Nagato, Tobi or even Kisame.

You've proven my point; despite Sasori's minor status, his battle lasted ten chapters, Kankurō's overall plot importance is not the sole factor when Kishimoto determines battle lenght.

Again the specifics in this case are not important. This was not a battle where both men went full out. Ninja's do not need to go all out to judge each others power. They can tell from clashing with each other. Kankuro had very favourable circumstances, which enable him to win quickly.

Specifics are always important and must always be analyzed. Here, Sasori was weak. You need only to compare Kankurō with his prime incarnation to notice the disparity between them.

Chiyo's knowledge of Kankurō's altercation with Sasori is unknown and her statement is ambiguous; she compliments him, confirming nothing.

Ninja must see the majority of one's power to determine another's strength, with the possible of Sasuke and Naruto, who share a special bond. Chiyo, for example, was consistently astonished by Sasori's power, despite them having "clashed."

He would have read the reports of the fight.

Reports? Evidence of their existence, as well as their depth?

It is implied when before the kage summit he tells Temari assembling his NEW PUPPETS in the plural took longer than expected.

He actually states it took him a while to while to figure out a "new trick/mechanism." Singular, and not even a confirmed puppet.

Chiyo faced off against Sandaime Kazekage with just a human puppet and one arm. Sasori at least had both his arms, an immortal body, an immortal puppet. He was in a stronger position than Chiyo, but had a weaker showing.

A human is optimal when fighting Satetsu, as it clogs kugutsu joints. Chiyo's impairment was rectified by Sakura's analytical ability.

Sasori had both arms, but has already shown that one is sufficient. He had an immortal body; Chiyo had evasion, which accomplished the same goal; remaining unharmed. His immortal puppet lacked the offensive and medical skill set Sakura had.

He did not use any move as powerful as the one he used at the kage summit. He didn't even use all of the Sasori puppets full arsenal

Akahigi Kiki Sankaku has been used once in conjunction with other techniques. We don't know how powerful it is. It could be just as potent as Sasori's flamethrowers.
Kankurō didn't deploy the hundreds of Chakura no Ito, but the databook states it requires the core, which he discarded.

My point was he started off with them.

Which is irrelevant to all clashes between Kankurō and Sasori.

Kankuro is a bodyguard of the Kazekage, the son of the former Kazekage, a leader of the joint shinobi army and the best puppet user in the sand. This is why.

You've listed characteristics, but none of these explain why he would privy to information concerning a dead Akatsuki member. This is all presuming said report exists and contains in depth detail, which you also haven't provided evidence of.

In your opinion, but Kankuro and the manga disagrees with you.

Neither Kankurō or the manga stated his mechanisms were impressive.

hitokugutsu
12-28-2011, 05:48 PM
I agree statements must be put into the appropriate context. We have to look at the characters involved, the knowledge they have and the what the author intended.

1. Personality of the character.
2. Knowledge of the character
3. Reason to lie
4. Authors Intent
5. Contradicted by another feat or statement

1. Kankuro oddly enough despite being cocky has had a fair understanding of his own power. Even when facing Shino he did not immediately assume he could win. So his judgement is usually good.
2. Kankuro would have had perfect knowledge about Sasori. He red up on him and had worked with some of his best work first hand. He knew just how strong Sasori was.
3. Again Kankuro had no reason to lie. He was winning the fight and had Sasori trapped.
4. This is very important. In the encounter Kankuro is shown to have the greater skill. He is one step ahead of Sasori. Kishimoto did not have the time or the inclination to write a full blown fight for the two.
5. I admit it seems unlikely that Kankuro grew that strong, but there is nothing to contradict it. His growth is no greater than his brothers or even Sasori before him. Other characters like Chouji and Shikamaru have demonstrated similar growth.

Hence we have to accept as of now that Kankuro is stronger. Later on we get more information revealing than Kankuro had not quite yet surpassed Sasori, but until then it is wrong to dismiss all the evidence.
3. Kankuro had no reason to lie

1. I agree that the Kankuro we saw during the war was much more mature (probably the reason he was squad Leader) and he didn't seem that cocky. And if he truly claims he had surpassed Sasori, then he no doubt thinks he has but...

2 . Sasori possibly did not have full knowledge on Sasori. He knew he was a master puppeteer, but a lot of Sasori's battle strength only came to light during his battle with Chiyo
- murder and kidnapping of Suna's most powerful Kage
- 100 Puppets control which allowed him to take over a country. This form of hype is given to very few (Orochimaru, Pain).

Now we have 2 scenarios.
a) Kankuro simply does not know, and therefor is ill informed and cannot possibly gauge Sasoir's true strength. Kinda like Hebi Sasuke & Itachi. Sasuke thought knew Itachi because he knew of MS (Tsuki & Ama) yet he knew nothing
b) Kankuro does know, most likely Sakura telling Suna about the battle. If this is true, then Kankuro knows he is facing an opponent who's most powerful weapons (Sandaime Kazekage, 100 Puppets, Hiruko) are destroyed and his claim is true in a way. But this is like a 10 year old kid claiming to a professional wrestler who has been shot 3 times he is more powerful then him.

3. Like I said above. Kankuro has no reason to lie if he truly believes he is more powerful

4. First of all, Kankuro was never one step ahead of Sasori. He was able to trap him due to Sai. But Sai himself was enraged and after that pulled out Fujin/Raijun Drawing after seeing Shin being blown up. That was in no fukcing way planned by Kankuro. He just made use of the opportunity

Then this page:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/518/15

Deidara is surprised, indicated by !!, Yet Sasori does not show the level of being stunned.


Then the most important page

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/518/17

Sasori does not get response from his threads. Because of Sai's crumbling Shin (who was controlled by Sasori) due to his picture book.

So to claim that Kankuro actually "beat" Sasori. Hardly. He was deprived of his arsenal. And even then he got trolled by Shin crumbling away.

As for the authors intent. You claim it to be to show Kankuro > Sasori

I don't get that at all, especially with everything I just showed. What I did get, was that Kishi showed Kankuro got more skilled, and obviously for plots sake the Alliance had to win
Kishi did it in a way which kinda saved Sasori, since Kankuro "trapped" a man who was deprived of his 3 most powerful weapons, and even then Kankuro had luck on his side (Sai being enraged, and Shin crumbling)

So if Kankuro's statement is put into context it can only mean he surpassed the Sasori he was battling (ET Sasori). And with the most likely scenario in which he knew Sasori was deprived of his arsenal

shintebukuro
12-28-2011, 05:55 PM
It seems to me a lot of these response are not based on manga facts, rather they are based on how people would like the story to develop.

Hilarious that you would post this. You're unbelievable.

Reddan
12-28-2011, 06:03 PM
1. I agree that the Kankuro we saw during the war was much more mature (probably the reason he was squad Leader) and he didn't seem that cocky. And if he truly claims he had surpassed Sasori, then he no doubt thinks he has but...
Good.

2 . Sasori possibly did not have full knowledge on Sasori. He knew he was a master puppeteer, but a lot of Sasori's battle strength only came to light during his battle with Chiyo
- murder and kidnapping of Suna's most powerful Kage
- 100 Puppets control which allowed him to take over a country. This form of hype is given to very few (Orochimaru, Pain).
The problem is Sakura witnessed everything Sasori had to offer. Kankuro is a very high ranking member of Suna. He is their puppet specialist and would have taken an interest in this. For example Kakashi either got first hand information or read notes on Itachi's Amaterasu. We even know Kankuro was AT the battle ground to collect the puppet so he would have been aware of exactly what Sasori did.

Now we have 2 scenarios.
a) Kankuro simply does not know, and therefor is ill informed and cannot possibly gauge Sasoir's true strength. Kinda like Hebi Sasuke & Itachi. Sasuke thought knew Itachi because he knew of MS (Tsuki & Ama) yet he knew nothing
b) Kankuro does know, most likely Sakura telling Suna about the battle. If this is true, then Kankuro knows he is facing an opponent who's most powerful weapons (Sandaime Kazekage, 100 Puppets, Hiruko) are destroyed and his claim is true in a way. But this is like a 10 year old kid claiming to a professional wrestler who has been shot 3 times he is more powerful then him.
I have answered A so I will discuss B.
Kankuro's statement is outright claiming to have surpassed him.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/4
This is different than saying he is currently stronger. He is saying his top level is now better than Sasori's ever was. The reason he gives is that he has absorbed the best of Sasori and added to it.

3. Like I said above. Kankuro has no reason to lie if he truly believes he is more powerful
Okay.

4. First of all, Kankuro was never one step ahead of Sasori. He was able to trap him due to Sai. But Sai himself was enraged and after that pulled out Fujin/Raijun Drawing after seeing Shin being blown up. That was in no fukcing way planned by Kankuro. He just made use of the opportunity

Then this page:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/518/15

Deidara is surprised, indicated by !!, Yet Sasori does not show the level of being stunned.

Look at this panel here.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/3
Sasori is shocked that Kankuro is skilful enough to attach their chakra strings together. We have never seen anything close to this before.

Now look at this point.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/8
Kankuro is dueling Sasori here. However, Kankuro has the ability to simultaneously control a puppet hidden in the ground. Again we have never seen anything like this before and he stops the full impact of the explosion. At the same time he initiates his chakra shield.

Then look at this panel.
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/14
Sasori is shocked that Kankuro could use that instant to trap him in a puppet.

Laslty

Then the most important page

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/518/17

Sasori does not get response from his threads. Because of Sai's crumbling Shin (who was controlled by Sasori) due to his picture book.
Yes, but Sasori was unable to move. No use having chakra strings attached to a puppet, if you are unable to move to control them.

So to claim that Kankuro actually "beat" Sasori. Hardly. He was deprived of his arsenal. And even then he got trolled by Shin crumbling away.
Yes he did not have his full arsenal, but Kankuro did not go full out either. He had a "puppet" to use in this case, but in general puppet play he was outclassed.

As for the authors intent. You claim it to be to show Kankuro > Sasori

I don't get that at all, especially with everything I just showed. What I did get, was that Kishi showed Kankuro got more skilled, and obviously for plots sake the Alliance had to win
Kishi did it in a way which kinda saved Sasori, since Kankuro "trapped" a man who was deprived of his 3 most powerful weapons, and even then Kankuro had luck on his side (Sai being enraged, and Shin crumbling)
Look at the panels I highlighted again. Kankuro is shown to be superior in puppet play and being able to trap an opponent. He makes the claim he is stronger and then backs it up by defeating Sasori. Until further evidence we must go with what the manga has shown us. There is no contradiction anywhere and Kankuro has the role (leader in the army) and the hype to justify surpassing Sasori.

Qhorin Halfhand
12-28-2011, 06:22 PM
Kankuro surpassed the Edo Sasori because Sasori believed he was stronger in his Tensei form and would have chosen that form to fight in due to his ideology over his previous form, which in reality was weaker, since Sasori did not have his puppets, something even Kankuro comments on. So Kankuro surpassed him because he understood that Sasori's ideology was mistaken & followed the right ideology of focusing on gaining stronger puppets rather than trying to make himself the perfect puppet.
This.

Sasori>Kankuro>Edo Sasori.

Star★Platinum
12-28-2011, 09:21 PM
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/518/17

Explains it all really.
Sasori > Kankuro > Edo Sasori.

DemonDurai
12-29-2011, 05:14 AM
Saying that Kankuro is greater than Sasori is like saying that:

Itachi+Kisame+ Backups from the Akatsuki could not take beat Jiraiya. Just because Itachi said so.

Just cause Kankuro said so means shit as well.

If you choose to believe that kankuro > Sasori then you should believe Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame+ Backups or else you are been very hypocritical :amuse

DD

Reddan
12-29-2011, 08:18 AM
Correct; instead, he has superior feats of employing an advanced variant of puppetry on multiple targets against their will.
The correlation between the two is nonexistent. Sasori consistently increased his techniques' potency during his fight with Chiyo and Sakura. However, his infamous impatience hastened the process, causing him to skip several "steps" like using another hitokugutsu after the Sandaime Kazekage's demise.
He chose not to use any other Human puppets, because he thought they would be destroyed.
Never thought I'd see the Third Kazekage destroyed. It's probably a waste to user other human puppets.
During the fight Sasori was getting frustrated and wanted to end things quickly. Him not using an additional puppet is quite significant.

I'm not referencing basic movements such as tugging—novice kugutsutsukai can cause slight disruptions (http://www.haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+034+-+Intruders&page=17&next=true)—I speak of Sōen: Hitomi Gokū, which demands exemplary skill.
I concede this point we have yet to see Kankuro use it on a long term basis, but he never had the reason to. We did see Chiyo do someting similar with samurai though.

A skewed comparison, as Kankurō lacks the following:

Intimate knowledge of Sasori's offensive patterns.
Decades of experience.
Medical Analysis
A flesh puppet.
Skill superseding Chiyo's.

Yes, a sole kugutsutsukai can stall Sasori, but it was exceedingly difficult, requiring various advantages Kankurō doesn't possess.

A flesh puppet is not necessary you just need to avoid being hit by the iron sand. Chiyo was initially coping with just the mother and father puppet.
Medical Analysis is not required either.
Kankuro has skill superseding Chiyo's.
Experience is a valuable asset, but not vital. Sakura was able to read and dodge Sasori's movements after being exposed to them for a short while. Kankuro has had years of exposure to puppets and studied Sasori's work in detail

I was discussing technical skill, not the puppets themselves.
It seems that it requires more skill to control stronger and more complicated puppets. It is highly impressive Kankuro can control 4 such difficult puppets so easily.

He did, but all feats and actions I've sited were due to Sasori's abilities, not Deidara's intervention.
Deidara was still providing a distraction for Sasori to act.

No, the purpose of this battle was to reinforce the theme of the new generation surpassing the elder; the effectiveness of teamwork, and to highlight Kankurō's growth. Because of this, a fair direct comparison is impossible; all of Kankurō's "feats" were due to the combined efforts of his team. He has no sole feats.
You yourself pointed out a point of the battle was to reinforce the New Generation Surpassing the Old. Kankuro was part of the New Generation surpassing the old.

I've never denied this; I'm stating the success of this tactic was partially due to teamwork, not just Kankurō's puppetry.

I have always accepted this. In a team battle teamwork is important. All of the young heroes were allowed to shine. However, Kankuro was the one who wa sin charge.

As a shinobi, I would hope he could gauge distances and angles accurately and react accordingly. This is a rudimentary skill all reputable ninja must acquire.
No it is the anticipation to quickly move his puppets into place. It shows he is ready to take advantage of a moments slip up form the enemy.

Again, I never contested this; obviously Kankurō can defeat Edo Sasori, as he has no weapons, especially if he were alone.

Again the point is he also showed greater skill in the exchange and then made a comment indication he was all round superior than Sasori. He then added to it by explaining how he had absorbed Sasori's power and added to it.

Kankurō's trap making is not exceptional. Distract and ensnare; simple, but effective.
Creativity? How so? Sasori has shown more creative license in both craftsmanship and application.
Kankurō has installed explosives, an extendable arm, and a Kikō Junbū. Contrast with Sasori's propellers, flamethrowers, Chakura no Ito generator, and extendable cables.

It is incredibly effective and has constantly caught out very strong opponents for the time ie Sakon, Deidara, Sasori. I would class that as exceptional.
Sasori has shown more creativity in craftsmanship, but not application. Kankuro was able to switch places with his puppets, hide them underground, unattach and then reattach parts to surprise his opponents.

He couldn't control the explosives and the puppet, as you said, wielded a short sword no better than a kunai. Worse, actually, as it wasn't designed to be tossed.

There is no doubt Sasori was much weaker than he was in his existence, but again Kankuro did not go all out and Sasori had the assistance of Deidara. Nor can Kankuro's words be dismissed. Kishimoto placed them there for a reason.

No, Kankurō targeted the right person (Sasori, whose Chakura no Ito had just been severed and who can't detect invisible chakra) while Sasori dealt with fodder. Better technique had little to do with it.

It takes exceptional technique to be able to attach your puppet strings to someone elses. Sasori even praised him for this. The speed with which he did so was another thing which made it impressive.

Precisely. Darui is "fairly impressive" and has displayed a single Kuroi Kaminari technique. Gaara has versatility, ingenuity, immense stamina, hype.... the list is endless.

Gaara is a main character and stronger, but I don't think the gap will be that big. Darui is a great swordsman , has immense stamina himself, is very versatile, has a KG, water jutsu at the level of a kage and the ability to analyse.

Strange, as this indication isn't found in Kankurō's speech to Sasori, nor is it anywhere else in the manga. Particularly the bold; you simply fabricated that.
I did not fabricate this. This is the implication I get from the manga. Sasori surpassed Chiyo, but it was still a hard fight for him to take her down.

You've proven my point; despite Sasori's minor status, his battle lasted ten chapters, Kankurō's overall plot importance is not the sole factor when Kishimoto determines battle lenght.

Still his battle time was shorter than people with more relevance.

Specifics are always important and must always be analyzed. Here, Sasori was weak. You need only to compare Kankurō with his prime incarnation to notice the disparity between them.
The problem is we have yet to see Kankuro go out. We know his has at least one and probably many more of Sasori's original puppets. Before the kage summit he makes it clear he has gained new puppets. We saw a brief skirmish where Kankuro won convincingly against a weakened Sasori. He then claimed he had surpassed the latter. Until we see Kankuro go all out or have statements to contradict the original we have to accept the statement as truth.

Chiyo's knowledge of Kankurō's altercation with Sasori is unknown and her statement is ambiguous; she compliments him, confirming nothing.
It implies that even after seeing everything Sasori has to offer she saw enough in Kankuro to think at this point he could surpass him.

Ninja must see the majority of one's power to determine another's strength, with the possible of Sasuke and Naruto, who share a special bond. Chiyo, for example, was consistently astonished by Sasori's power, despite them having "clashed."

Reddan
12-29-2011, 08:18 AM
[/QUOTE]
Not completely true. Kakashi was able to realise he was outclassed by Orochimaru by one genjutsu. Orochimaru realised he was no match for Itachi after a brief exchange. Ninjas have a sense of just how strong their opponents are. I repeat Kankuro would have access to the records.

Reports? Evidence of their existence, as well as their depth?
Every mission has it right ups. This has been confirmed and dangerous techniques of other villages are put in. Not to mention Kabuto gave out all the information about the Akatsuki to Konoha, which they subsequently shared with the world. Kankuro would have had knowledge.

He actually states it took him a while to while to figure out a "new trick/mechanism." Singular, and not even a confirmed puppet.

Nope. This is what he says.

Assembling my NEW PUPPETS took longer than expected.

A human is optimal when fighting Satetsu, as it clogs kugutsu joints. Chiyo's impairment was rectified by Sakura's analytical ability.

Perhaps, but it still showed what one skilled puppet user could do against Sasori.

Sasori had both arms, but has already shown that one is sufficient. He had an immortal body; Chiyo had evasion, which accomplished the same goal; remaining unharmed. His immortal puppet lacked the offensive and medical skill set Sakura had.
No an immortal body is much better than evasion. His immortal puppets was immortal so had no need for medical jutsu. Defensively it was far superior. There was no need to protect it from harm.

Akahigi Kiki Sankaku has been used once in conjunction with other techniques. We don't know how powerful it is. It could be just as potent as Sasori's flamethrowers.
Kankurō didn't deploy the hundreds of Chakura no Ito, but the databook states it requires the core, which he discarded.

It required the core, because that was where Sasori's chakra was located and human remains. If Kankuro is focusing his chakra through it, who knows. We do know his other puppets he did not feel necessary to use.

Which is irrelevant to all clashes between Kankurō and Sasori.

No but it is important when comparing their individual performance in the battle.

You've listed characteristics, but none of these explain why he would privy to information concerning a dead Akatsuki member. This is all presuming said report exists and contains in depth detail, which you also haven't provided evidence of.

No I have listed his importance and high rank proving why he would have access and a desire to read the reports. The reports exist and in addition they have Kabuto's information about all the Akatsuki.

Neither Kankurō or the manga stated his mechanisms were impressive.
Sasori praised Kankuro for his use of mechanisms back in when they first fought.

At the end of the day we have Kankuro demonstrating more skill and defeating a weak Sasori. However, Kankuro did not go full out himself. He did not use all his puppets and despite information about Sasori still believed he had surpassed him. Until we have further information we have to accept this.

DemonDurai
12-29-2011, 08:41 AM
At the end of the day we have Kankuro demonstrating more skill and defeating a weak Sasori. However, Kankuro did not go full out himself. He did not use all his puppets and despite information about Sasori still believed he had surpassed him. Until we have further information we have to accept this.

Does this means that you accept that Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame+ Akatsuki Backups (Itachi said said so). :)

DD

Reddan
12-29-2011, 08:55 AM
Does this means that you accept that Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame+ Akatsuki Backups (Itachi said said so). :)

DD

I don't since this statement was later contradicted. The same way I don't accept that Sasuke was stronger than Orochimaru or Sasuke was stronger than Itachi. I find it hard to beleive that Kankuro is so strong, but I have to accept what the manga says. If further information comes up to contradict this then we can dismiss it. Until then we have to accept it.

Turrin
12-29-2011, 09:43 AM
Firstly I don't get the impression that the Sandaime Kazekage was as strong as Sasori's puppet body. Next Kankuro himself confirms he has other new puppets and considering all his puppets came from Sasori it is decent assumption that he took more of Sasori's puppets. Thirdly quantity does not always overcome quality in a battle of puppets. Sandaime Kazekage was too much for the parent puppets. Whilst Chiyo though eventually overwhelmed was mowing through the 100 puppets.


1. Sandaime Kazekage is still stronger than any puppet Kankuro has shown
2. When does Kankuro confirm he has more puppets? Not saying it's wrong, just saying I don't remember this.
3. Chiyo's puppets were ultimately loosing out to Sasori's 100 though & on top of that there is even a comment that states a puppet users strength can be measured by how many puppets he can control

Finally you yourself made a thread talking about feats in context with panel time and hype. Kankuro is simply not a major character. We have hype of him surpassing Sasori. We have feats of him having greater skill. We know his other puppets he did not use. Yes Edo Tensei Sasori was weaker, but Kankuro never had to go out. Until we get further information we have to accept Kankuro surpassed Sasori. I myself found it hard to believe this, but we cannot argue against the text. If Kishimoto clarifies later on then that is different. However, as of now we must accept that Kankuro is stronger than pre Edo Sasori.

The problem is the hype of Kankuro surpassing Sasori to me is only referring to Edo Sasori or at least it's ambiguous enough were it's not clear if Kankuro merely surpass Edo Sasori or all incarnations of Sasori. As for the panel time thing, yes I made a thread about it & I'm more than willing to apply my system to the comparison. So Kankuro got what 3 chapters so far to show off his new skills, if we compare that to Sasori's first 3 chapters to show of his skills I still think Kankuro comes off short due to the fact that Sasori's feats with Sandaime Kazekage being > than Kankuro's feats so far imo. Also if we look at story context it seems unlikely that Kankuro > Pre-Edo Sasori considering how easily rusty Hanzo owned him, which would mean Rusty Hanzo >>> Kankuro > Sasori & while I'm a big fan of Hanzo, I don't think he's suppose to be seen as that strong when Rusty.

So all i'm saying is that we don't know for sure right now which incarnation the statement is referring to, I lean towards the Edo one though since Kankuro has that whole speech about how Sasori got weaker right after saying he surpassed him.

DemonDurai
12-29-2011, 09:46 AM
I don't since this statement was later contradicted. The same way I don't accept that Sasuke was stronger than Orochimaru or Sasuke was stronger than Itachi. I find it hard to beleive that Kankuro is so strong, but I have to accept what the manga says. If further information comes up to contradict this then we can dismiss it. Until then we have to accept it.

The manga itself contradict very much that Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame+ Akatsuki. but not enough Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame only. However if you are going suggest that there is no contradiction that Kankuro>Sasori you seem to blind to it.

The Chiyo and Sakura versus Sasori battle is a goldmine for contradictions.

Chiyo said that the third Kazekage is by far the strongest of Kazekage. Sasori is stronger than the third.

Kankuro said himself that Sasori was "weaker" in his Edo Tensei form than the form he was when he was alive.

There is enough contradiction to "dismiss" Kankuro's trolling (IMO). I am not saying thatt Kankuro has not got the potential to surpass Sasori or his less skilful. Just who is still the more powerful Shinobo at the moment.

If as you say there have to be "contradiction" or enough "information" for us not to accept then there is enough of that. :P

DD

King Scoop
12-29-2011, 09:52 AM
I don't since this statement was later contradicted. The same way I don't accept that Sasuke was stronger than Orochimaru or Sasuke was stronger than Itachi. I find it hard to beleive that Kankuro is so strong, but I have to accept what the manga says. If further information comes up to contradict this then we can dismiss it. Until then we have to accept it.

No you don't. It makes no sense whatsoever. This is like when Naurto "surpassed" Kakashi by learning FRS. He didn't really surpass him, he just surpassed him in a way. Kankuro isn't stronger than Sasori, he's shown nothing to prove that he has.

Reddan
12-29-2011, 10:00 AM
The manga itself contradict very much that Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame+ Akatsuki. but not enough Jiraiya> Itachi+Kisame only. However if you are going suggest that there is no contradiction that Kankuro>Sasori you seem to blind to it.
Itachi defeating Jiraiya's slight superior at 11 pretty much contradicted the statement. Kisame himself through doubt at the authenticity of the statement straight after. Later we learn Itachi had reason to lie. Further more Itachi was stronger than SM Naruto, who himself had surpassed Jiraiya.

The Chiyo and Sakura versus Sasori battle is a goldmine for contradictions.
Chiyo said that the third Kazekage is by far the strongest of Kazekage. Sasori is stronger than the third.
This is not actually true. Sandaime Kazekage was stronger than his predecessors. That is it. Nor is it implied Sasori could use Sandaime Kazekage with the same skill as the original. Anyway this does not contradict Kankuro at a later date surpassing him.

Kankuro said himself that Sasori was "weaker" in his Edo Tensei form than the form he was when he was alive.
Yes, but Kankuro also said he had surpassed him altogether.

There is enough contradiction to "dismiss" Kankuro's trolling (IMO). I am not saying thatt Kankuro has not got the potential to surpass Sasori or his less skilful. Just who is still the more powerful Shinobo at the moment.

There is no evidence to dismiss it. You still have not given me one valid reason.

If as you say there have to be "contradiction" or enough "information" for us not to accept then there is enough of that. :P

DD
No there is no contradiction or information to reject it. Sasori being exceptionally strong is not reason enough for Kankuro to not reach that level. Look at how Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru completely in a shorter period of time. There is no reason why Kankuro could not do the same.

Reddan
12-29-2011, 10:02 AM
No you don't. It makes no sense whatsoever. This is like when Naurto "surpassed" Kakashi by learning FRS. He didn't really surpass him, he just surpassed him in a way. Kankuro isn't stronger than Sasori, he's shown nothing to prove that he has.
You refuse to accept what the manga tells you. Naruto became stronger than Kakashi after he learnt FRS. It was not just learning the move, but the way he improved his chakra, his use of clones and strategy in battle. It was mentioned several times over.

King Scoop
12-29-2011, 10:08 AM
You refuse to accept what the manga tells you. Naruto became stronger than Kakashi after he learnt FRS. It was not just learning the move, but the way he improved his chakra, his use of clones and strategy in battle. It was mentioned several times over.

Kakashi was still an overall better ninja than Naruto. If Kakashi was serious he would just Genjutsu him and end the fight quickly. The latest few chapters show how much better Kakashi is to Naruto with Wind training.

Reddan
12-29-2011, 10:15 AM
1. Sandaime Kazekage is still stronger than any puppet Kankuro has shown
2. When does Kankuro confirm he has more puppets? Not saying it's wrong, just saying I don't remember this.
3. Chiyo's puppets were ultimately loosing out to Sasori's 100 though & on top of that there is even a comment that states a puppet users strength can be measured by how many puppets he can control
1. Sandaime Kazekage himself was stronger any puppet Sasori had when he faced him. It did not save him.
2. It is in the VIZ. When he is heading off to the kage summit he says he preparing his NEW PUPPETS took longer than expected.
3. It is true Chiyo's puppets were ultimately losing, but Sasori himself was a more skilled puppet master than her. So not only did he have more puppets, but greater skill. Even so Chiyo was taking out lots of the puppets. We still have to see Kankuro go all out. He was comfortable in the fight and I think unlike Chiyo displayed greater skill than Sasori.

The problem is the hype of Kankuro surpassing Sasori to me is only referring to Edo Sasori or at least it's ambiguous enough were it's not clear if Kankuro merely surpass Edo Sasori or all incarnations of Sasori. As for the panel time thing, yes I made a thread about it & I'm more than willing to apply my system to the comparison. So Kankuro got what 3 chapters so far to show off his new skills, if we compare that to Sasori's first 3 chapters to show of his skills I still think Kankuro comes off short due to the fact that Sasori's feats with Sandaime Kazekage being > than Kankuro's feats so far imo. Also if we look at story context it seems unlikely that Kankuro > Pre-Edo Sasori considering how easily rusty Hanzo owned him, which would mean Rusty Hanzo >>> Kankuro > Sasori & while I'm a big fan of Hanzo, I don't think he's suppose to be seen as that strong when Rusty.
Hanzo was able to take out a retreating Hanzo after he had fought a battle and spent time repairing. He was not fresh for the fight. The same way that Sai was in trouble from Haku. It is the same as comparing how easily Asura Realm was going to take out Tsunade.

The Sandaime Kazekage was being held at bay by Chiyo with Sakura. This has to be taken into account. As powerful as the puppet was. Sasori could not gain an advantage over Sakura and Chiyo. Ultimately he ended up losing the fight.

If we examine the context we see that Kankuro has taken the puppets Sasori created and added to them. He himself had greater individual skill with threads. I find it hard to believe, but Kankuro is one of the characters Kishimoto has always portrayed as VERY strong. He was the one allowed to take out the strongest member of the Sound 4.

So all i'm saying is that we don't know for sure right now which incarnation the statement is referring to, I lean towards the Edo one though since Kankuro has that whole speech about how Sasori got weaker right after saying he surpassed him.
This is true, but Kankuro goes further than this. He claims he has the power of Sasori's true soul. The power of Sasori before he became an Edo. He says Sasori's true strength in the past lay in his puppets and Kankuro now controls those puppets.

Read Kishimoto's comments about how current mangaka's can learn from things the old ones did and improve on it. It is similar to the quote that we can see further than the greats of the past, because we stand on their giant shoulders.

Sasori was genius, who put his soul into creating puppets and pushing the boundary of puppets further than anyone before him. Kankuro inherited those puppets and added to them. It is similar to what Kabuto has done with Orochimaru, but in a healthy way. In that context it is more understandable why Kankuro is stronger than Sasori.

Reddan
12-29-2011, 10:18 AM
Kakashi was still an overall better ninja than Naruto. If Kakashi was serious he would just Genjutsu him and end the fight quickly. The latest few chapters show how much better Kakashi is to Naruto with Wind training.
No you fail to take into account what Kakashi said to Naruto. He is still young and improving himself. Kakashi at this present time is stronger than Sasuke during the Wind training. He improved his stamina and use of Kamui.

On the genjutsu front we have not seen Kakashi ever put someone in genjutsu prior to having them distracted. This is the problem with battledome logic. I could just as easily say Naruto uses clones and Kakashi uses genjutsu on a clone. Kishimoto is clear that Wind training Naruto was the stronger ninja.

King Scoop
12-29-2011, 10:38 AM
No you fail to take into account what Kakashi said to Naruto. He is still young and improving himself. Kakashi at this present time is stronger than Sasuke during the Wind training. He improved his stamina and use of Kamui.

On the genjutsu front we have not seen Kakashi ever put someone in genjutsu prior to having them distracted. This is the problem with battledome logic. I could just as easily say Naruto uses clones and Kakashi uses genjutsu on a clone. Kishimoto is clear that Wind training Naruto was the stronger ninja.

Kakashi hasn't improved that much in a few months. His improvement over the timeskip was relativity small. Kakashi is just extremely smart and skilled. Naruto is a powerhouse, brute force type of guy. So while Naruto was stronger, Kakashi was still the better ninja. Naruto would have given him a decent fight, but Kakashi would have taken it.

Battledome logic uses actual logic, instead of plot to determine who would win a fight.

Herekic
12-29-2011, 10:44 AM
lol what?


No. sasori was far stronger than kankuro.


their fight with him as an edo didin't count.

Do you remember what sasori said in his fight with chiyo?

"A puppeteer with no puppets is just a normal person".


What did sasori not have as an edo? A SINGLE FUCKING PUPPET.


he was forced to use human bodies, aka things with no traps or special abilites. had sasori had his entire collection kankuro would have been raped.

Reddan
12-29-2011, 10:54 AM
Kakashi hasn't improved that much in a few months. His improvement over the timeskip was relativity small. Kakashi is just extremely smart and skilled. Naruto is a powerhouse, brute force type of guy. So while Naruto was stronger, Kakashi was still the better ninja. Naruto would have given him a decent fight, but Kakashi would have taken it.

Battledome logic uses actual logic, instead of plot to determine who would win a fight.
Kakashi has improved and even before then Kakashi was a match for Akatsuki members.

There are way too many statements showing Naruto is stronger.

Before the training even begins Kakashi makes it clear that it could lead to Naruto surpassing him.

But this method is suited to Naruto or rather it will only work with Naruto. And if it does pan out. Naruto you may surpass me.

Naruto has become strong, truly strong. Jutsu that were beyond even the Fourth Hokage are well within his command. I guess it's time to pass the torch. He has surpassed me.

You're strong Naruto you may even surpass me.

Naruto was slightly above Kakash and to deny it is pick and choose what you view as canon. You just cannot do that.

Battledome logic is flawed, because Kishimoto writes the story and can always give his characters new jutsu or make them intelligent enough to win. What he says goes. Who would have thought Bee had a great sealing jutsu or Sai before it was revealed. If Kishimoto says someone is stronger then they will win.

King Scoop
12-29-2011, 11:09 AM
Kakashi has improved and even before then Kakashi was a match for Akatsuki members.

There are way too many statements showing Naruto is stronger.

Before the training even begins Kakashi makes it clear that it could lead to Naruto surpassing him.

But this method is suited to Naruto or rather it will only work with Naruto. And if it does pan out. Naruto you may surpass me.

Naruto has become strong, truly strong. Jutsu that were beyond even the Fourth Hokage are well within his command. I guess it's time to pass the torch. He has surpassed me.

You're strong Naruto you may even surpass me.

Naruto was slightly above Kakash and to deny it is pick and choose what you view as canon. You just cannot do that.

Battledome logic is flawed, because Kishimoto writes the story and can always give his characters new jutsu or make them intelligent enough to win. What he says goes. Who would have thought Bee had a great sealing jutsu or Sai before it was revealed. If Kishimoto says someone is stronger then they will win.

Kakashi said he could surpass him in a way, not completely. Naruto only really had stamina on his side. Kakashi was better at Ninjutsu, Taijustu, and Genjustu. He was also faster and smarter than Naruto. If I had to fight with one of them by my side I would have picked Kakashi any day of the week.

The battledome uses what has been shown in the manga. It uses what Kishi has shown the characters to have up to that point, minus PNJ and CIS.

DemonDurai
12-29-2011, 11:18 AM
Itachi defeating Jiraiya's slight superior at 11 pretty much contradicted the statement. Kisame himself through doubt at the authenticity of the statement straight after. Later we learn Itachi had reason to lie. Further more Itachi was stronger than SM Naruto, who himself had surpassed Jiraiya.

If you are suggesting Itachi defeat(solo) Pein then I can say with exact principle Sakura defeat Sasori. Leave that shit for the fanboys or else I lose respect for your opinions. :P
Itachi lies but KanKuro did not? Itachi lie about a lot of things which was clarified. But nothing on whether Itachi lied that Jairaya is greater than him.
Alas you forgot battle about Kisame and Itachi versus Jairaya, Naruto and Sasuke (genins)




This is not actually true. Sandaime Kazekage was stronger than his predecessors. That is it. Nor is it implied Sasori could use Sandaime Kazekage with the same skill as the original. Anyway this does not contradict Kankuro at a later date surpassing him.

Chiyos said in the present timeline(at the time) said that the Third Kazekage was by far the strongest ever. Sasori is stronger than the Third. Then Kankuro supposed to by logic also stronger than the third Kazekage. Considering that you use the same A>B>C for the Itachi>Naruto> Jiraiya then if you be hypocritical in your argument if you should disagree that Kankuro is not stronger than the Third Kazekage :)



Yes, but Kankuro also said he had surpassed him altogether.
.

kankuro also said he has grow weak too.


There is no evidence to dismiss it. You still have not given me one valid reason.

No there is no contradiction or information to reject it. Sasori being exceptionally strong is not reason enough for Kankuro to not reach that level. Look at how Kabuto surpassed Orochimaru completely in a shorter period of time. There is no reason why Kankuro could not do the same.

Here is one of my point earlier

"I am not saying that Kankuro has not got the potential to surpass Sasori or his less skilful. Just who is still the more powerful Shinobo at the moment."

You said it your yourself "There is no reason why Kankuro could not do the same"

There is far more evidence that Kabuto surpass Orochimaru than Kankuro surpass Sasori. How many Edo Tensei Kabuto control compare to Orichamaru and how may puppets Kankuro can control compare to Sasori. If the only argument is saying that Kankuro surpassed Sasori because he said so in the manga then many of the characters said a lot of things too (Itachi a prime example).

After reading your points and opinions.. Kankuro said he "Surpassed" which is not the same thing as been been more "powerful" than someone. Which Kankuro has not shown to be more powerful than Sasori just more skillfull and potential to exceed him.

DD

Reddan
12-29-2011, 11:37 AM
Kakashi said he could surpass him in a way, not completely. Naruto only really had stamina on his side. Kakashi was better at Ninjutsu, Taijustu, and Genjustu. He was also faster and smarter than Naruto. If I had to fight with one of them by my side I would have picked Kakashi any day of the week.
No Kakashi never said that. I just provided you with all the quotes Kakashi made on the subject. He is clear Naruto was slightly ahead and stronger.

Naruto had more stamina, was physically more powerful had better clones and greater creativity. I would too pick Kakashi to have on my side, but if he were to face Naruto he is losing more times than not.

The battledome uses what has been shown in the manga. It uses what Kishi has shown the characters to have up to that point, minus PNJ and CIS.No it just degenerates into fans taking certain feats out of context and ignoring the author's intetion.

If you are suggesting Itachi defeat(solo) Pein then I can say with exact principle Sakura defeat Sasori. Leave that shit for the fanboys or else I lose respect for your opinions. :P
Itachi lies but KanKuro did not? Itachi lie about a lot of things which was clarified. But nothing on whether Itachi lied that Jairaya is greater than him.
Alas you forgot battle about Kisame and Itachi versus Jairaya, Naruto and Sasuke (genins)

Yes I am suggesting Itachi would defeat Pain. The evidence is overwhelming in his favour. How is it the same logic as Sakura defeating Sasori? Itachi was stronger than SM Naruto. Zetsu regarded Itachi as showing greater feats than Pain too.

I don't really get your point. There is plenty of evidence to show Itachi was lying. There is non to suggest Kankuro was.

Chiyos said in the present timeline(at the time) said that the Third Kazekage was by far the strongest ever. Sasori is stronger than the Third. Then Kankuro supposed to by logic also stronger than the third Kazekage. Considering that you use the same A>B>C for the Itachi>Naruto> Jiraiya then if you be hypocritical in your argument if you should disagree that Kankuro is not stronger than the Third Kazekage :)

No she didn't. You just made that up.

I do think Kankuro surpassed Sandaime Kazekage. There is nothing hypocritical about the way I interpret the manga like others. Kankuro is also a character I don't particularly care for.

kankuro also said he has grow weak too.

Yes this is true, but that does not detract from Kankuro claiming to have surpassed him at his strongest.

Here is one of my point earlier

"I am not saying that Kankuro has not got the potential to surpass Sasori or his less skilful. Just who is still the more powerful Shinobo at the moment."

You said it your yourself "There is no reason why Kankuro could not do the same"
I agree, but until further evidence presents itself we have to accept that Kankuro had surpassed Sasori at this present time.

There is far more evidence that Kabuto surpass Orochimaru than Kankuro surpass Sasori. How many Edo Tensei Kabuto control compare to Orichamaru and how may puppets Kankuro can control compare to Sasori. If the only argument is saying that Kankuro surpassed Sasori because he said so in the manga then many of the characters said a lot of things too (Itachi a prime example).
I agree there is far more evidence of Kabuto surpassing Orochimaru. However, this does not mean the Kankuro statement is false. Yes and we should take what they say unless it is contradicted.

After reading your points and opinions.. Kankuro said he "Surpassed" which is not the same thing as been been more "powerful" than someone. Which Kankuro has not shown to be more powerful than Sasori just more skillfull and potential to exceed him.
DD
It is not, but in the Naruto world it usually is used in such a way. You would be hard put to argue how else he could surpass Sasori if by not becoming more powerful.

KingBoo
12-29-2011, 12:23 PM
well it makes sense that kankuro surpassed sasori. new > old.

i think people are just mad that it happened in such a way. but that is how kishimoto wanted to display it so deal with it sasori wasn't pissed at the end either, so why are his fans mad when he got surpassed?

Del Ruiz
12-29-2011, 12:26 PM
He surpassed him in certain ways. Just like Naruto surpassed Yondaime when he learned the FRS. But his total level was still way lower.

Sasori at his peak (and fully armed) was on par with one of the kages of the ninja nations. Kankuro still isn't anywhere near there as an overall package.

It's pretty easy to assess that Kankuro's overall level was still quite a bit lower than the kages, which is the same tier that Sasori himself stood on at one time.

EZ Archive Ads Plugin for vBulletin Copyright 2006 Computer Help Forum