Jozu/Ace vs. Aokiji

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KiddLaw92
04-26-2011, 08:00 AM
You know how it goes, Aokiji wins with low/mid difficulty with Ace and mid/high difficulty with Jozu. Although he would walk away fine from both matches.

Z
04-26-2011, 01:52 PM
I think he means Jaws and Ace together versus Aokiji. In which case, the duo takes this handily. Ace can provide crucial distractions and block ice attacks while Jaws lays on the damage.

Avalon
04-26-2011, 05:07 PM
There's just no way Aokiji can win this.

Raid3r2010
04-28-2011, 08:10 PM
Any of them have equal chances against him

warmonger5505
04-28-2011, 09:10 PM
Team 1 takes this with mid-high difficulty.

MartyMcFly1
04-29-2011, 06:03 AM
I'm not sure, we never really got an accurate assessment of Ace's strength pre-timeskip, but he did manage to deflect one of Aokiji's attacks. It's extremely likely that he would have lost to Aokiji.

Joz seemed to be doing pretty well against Aokiji before getting distracted by Marco and Whitebeard getting beaten. I would even say he seemed to be equally as strong as Aokiji, he certainly had no problem harming top tiers and making Crocodile his bitch. I'm gonna give it to Joz/Ace on this one. Joz could fight Aokiji evenly while Ace posted up at a distance and attacked him with ranged shots.

Raid3r2010
04-29-2011, 06:28 AM
I'm not sure, we never really got an accurate assessment of Ace's strength pre-timeskip, but he did manage to deflect one of Aokiji's attacks. It's extremely likely that he would have lost to Aokiji.

Joz seemed to be doing pretty well against Aokiji before getting distracted by Marco and Whitebeard getting beaten. I would even say he seemed to be equally as strong as Aokiji, he certainly had no problem harming top tiers and making Crocodile his bitch. I'm gonna give it to Joz/Ace on this one. Joz could fight Aokiji evenly while Ace posted up at a distance and attacked him with ranged shots.

Agree,just that Ace was really tired when he fought Aokiji and even so they seemed pretty equal.

GaaraoftheDesert1
04-29-2011, 07:31 AM
Its 50 / 50.

Donquixote Doflamingo
04-29-2011, 09:55 AM
Aokiji wins, Ace is not going to be much help besides negating a few of his attacks.

Jozu still gets pawned by Aokiji just like in the manga.

Aokiji wins Mid difficulty.

Yonkou
04-29-2011, 12:23 PM
I'm not sure, we never really got an accurate assessment of Ace's strength pre-timeskip, but he did manage to deflect one of Aokiji's attacks. It's extremely likely that he would have lost to Aokiji.

He did that while severely weakened though ...

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 12:32 PM
Was Ace's fire output, and command of his devil fruit, really that weakened though? Basically Ace negated ice with fire. He's not in Aokiji's league even at his best shape.

Anyway I see Aokiji winning this with medium to high difficulty, and mainly because of the presence of Ace's massive fire output which would allow Jaws to exploit more windows of attack. However Aokiji should be able to take Ace out of the equation sooner rather then later. I'm of the belief that Jaws is not equal to an Admiral. Sure he might be able to hang with one for an undetermined period of time, but I seriously doubt he can come close to beating an Admiral. So the result is obvious when it comes to Aokiji vs Jaws.

GaaraoftheDesert1
04-29-2011, 12:43 PM
If it was Croc instead of Ace tho :maybe

Yonkou
04-29-2011, 01:42 PM
Was Ace's fire output, and command of his devil fruit, really that weakened though? Basically Ace negated ice with fire. He's not in Aokiji's league even at his best shape.

Well, his health / life force or w/e the Vivre card shows was less than 10% ... So wouldn't that be pretty weakened?

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 01:55 PM
I would assume that Ace was physically not close to optimal condition, but his fire attacks seemed as potent as always, plus he seemed reinvigorated by fighting alongside his younger brother again.

warmonger5505
04-29-2011, 02:17 PM
Was Ace's fire output, and command of his devil fruit, really that weakened though? Basically Ace negated ice with fire. He's not in Aokiji's league even at his best shape.

Of course he was weakened he had been in sea stone handcuffs for days.

In his best shape before he became a WB Pirate he was offered a postition as a SHICHBUKAI!He tahn fought with Jinbei for five days and proceeded to take on WB by himself. I would say that puts him at Aokiji's level.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 02:40 PM
Of course he was weakened he had been in sea stone handcuffs for days.

In his best shape before he became a WB Pirate he was offered a postition as a SHICHBUKAI!He tahn fought with Jinbei for five days and proceeded to take on WB by himself. I would say that puts him at Aokiji's level.

Ace's meteoric growth can't be denied, but none of what you cited puts him anywhere close to someone of Aokiji's caliber.

Coruscation
04-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Also, "taking on WB by himself" doesn't exactly do him much good when he didn't manage to be more than a fly that's not even annoying to the old man.

Goova
04-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Going with Team 1.

You can't convince me that Ace did not have Armor Haki. I just can't fathom it. Sure he never showed it against Smoker, but hey, that was 100 chapters in, yeah Oda plans ahead, but that doesn't mean he had a solution for how to hurt a Logia at that point in time, and I don't think he did. He showed haki at the age of like 9, I'm sorry, but he had to have had haki, anyone on his level who doesn't have haki is some back water fodder, he is the strongest man in history's son, showed haki early, and fought strong New World opponents who did should have Haki(especially if they are allied with WB), Hell he was a whitebeard commander.

So, anyways, Ace and his fruit can easily counter Aokiji for a long ass time, theres no doubt Aokiji is stronger, but I'm not on the Hate-Ace-Like-Its-Cool Bandwagon, everyone likes to Underrate Ace like its fashionable, well I don't agree and Ace has better Haki then Aokiji(given Kings Haki). Last time I checked, Aokiji never showed a real Haki feat except making that Haki shield with the other 2 admirals, which is vague and we dont have any information on. People just like to think that the term "Admiral" connotes some larger then life image or figure, and for some reason Admirals don't need all the feats, lets say, Whitebead Commander needs, and its not for good reason.

Adding Jozu into the mix, they win, Ace can infinitely counter Aokiji while Jozu can then take advantage of him.

Teach
04-29-2011, 06:56 PM
Aokiji just needs a touch for either of them, and he'll get it eventually.

Kuzan-sama-senpai-san with mid-dif.

warmonger5505
04-29-2011, 08:41 PM
Ace's meteoric growth can't be denied, but none of what you cited puts him anywhere close to someone of Aokiji's caliber.

What exactly is Aokiji's caliber?

Also, "taking on WB by himself" doesn't exactly do him much good when he didn't manage to be more than a fly that's not even annoying to the old man.

He had been fighting Jinbei for FIve days and then he still had the energy to fight WB for a while before losing.

Aokiji just needs a touch for either of them, and he'll get it eventually.

Kuzan-sama-senpai-san with mid-dif.

Joz did this (http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-8/one-piece/chapter-567.html) to Aokiji who by the way your desicribing is the frikin One Piece god.

Also If Joz gt frozen Ace could just melt the ice since Joz is a frikin Diamond.

Young Grasshopper
04-29-2011, 08:45 PM
proceeded to take on WB by himself. I would say that puts him at Aokiji's level.

You see, there's a fundamental difference between the likes of Ace and Aokiji. Aokiji went head-to-head with Whitebeard; Ace was defeated hundreds of times by Whitebeard with the utmost of ease. And when I say the utmost of ease, that's no exaggeration.

Goova
04-29-2011, 08:48 PM
thats was pretty much similar to the situation with luffy. Pre TS luffy was weak, but Post TS luffy is very strong. I think ace became a lot stronger after a couple years on whitebeards ship

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:25 PM
What exactly is Aokiji's caliber?

Top tier fighting strength, a level that Ace never achieved.

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:26 PM
Top tier fighting strength, a level that Ace never achieved.

with worse haki then ace

Young Grasshopper
04-29-2011, 09:28 PM
with worse haki then ace

Hmm? How so?

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:28 PM
this place is all about feats. aokiji showed he can haki shield. ace showed kings haki

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:31 PM
with worse haki then ace

http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-567-page-8.html

Avalon
04-29-2011, 09:31 PM
^Pretty sure that's not haki at all. Just Aokiji's reaction timing is all

King Ooga Booga
04-29-2011, 09:31 PM
CoC matters more against top tiers.

Young Grasshopper
04-29-2011, 09:33 PM
this place is all about feats. aokiji showed he can haki shield. ace showed kings haki

I'd rather have haki shield than fodder immobilizer.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:33 PM
^Pretty sure that's not haki at all. Just Aokiji's reaction timing is all

I got the sense that he nullified WB's haki with his own. So they sort of sort of canceled each other out. I could be wrong though.

Qhorin Halfhand
04-29-2011, 09:35 PM
Ace might have had bigger Haki potential than Aokiji because he posseses King's Haki but that is just an assumption. Possesing King's Haki does not mean that at any given time you have more advanced Haki than people who do not posses it. The correct assumption to make is that Ace had quite inferior Haki abilities than Aokiji, if he was even able to use COA or COO much. I believe he could use Haki a bit, but he had even less mastery of it than post timeskip Luffy, and his fighting style was more oriented towards the strengths of his logia fruit.

Avalon
04-29-2011, 09:35 PM
I'd rather have haki shield than fodder immobilizer.

Especially when you can control the former but can't control the latter.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:35 PM
this place is all about feats. aokiji showed he can haki shield. ace showed kings haki

It was an uncontrolled burst when he was like ten. We don't even know if he bothered to cultivate and hone his CoC.

Also there's this. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-564-page-10.html) Aokiji has obviously honed his haki to high levels. CoC is beyond the point really.

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:41 PM
your speculation is just that. nice try tho

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:42 PM
your speculation is just that. nice try tho

It's not speculation that Aokiji has higher haki mastery then Ace. That's just common sense.

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:43 PM
then you wouldnt mind proving it then, would you?

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:44 PM
then you wouldnt mind proving it then, would you?

By your logic Ace has superior haki mastery then Garp.

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:46 PM
Nope, Garp has better feats then Ace with haki

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:47 PM
Nope, Garp has better feats then Ace with haki

So does Aokiji.

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:48 PM
Both have 1 haki feat. Ace's is better

King Ooga Booga
04-29-2011, 09:49 PM
Aokiji used Haki to block attacks from Whitebeard.

Ace used his to knock out fodder and didn't show any indication of being good with it when his life was on the line.

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:51 PM
Aokiji used Haki to block attacks from Whitebeard.

Ace used his to knock out fodder and didn't show any indication of being good with it when his life was on the line.

No he did not.

That discredits nothing

Avalon
04-29-2011, 09:51 PM
then you wouldnt mind proving it then, would you?

Is Ultradoots posting on your account again?

You gotta stop sharing your pass with him, he's making you look bad.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:51 PM
Both have 1 haki feat. Ace's is better

I posted two scans of Aokiji using haki in some form, one against WB himself. Ace has this lone, uncontrolled feat when he was like eight. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-587-page-9.html)

King Ooga Booga
04-29-2011, 09:52 PM
No he did not.

That discredits nothing

"Derp we have to go by what's clearly shown and not speculation"

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:54 PM
Do I need to prove that Mihawk has higher haki mastery then Ace as well?

Goova
04-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Everyone has a double standard, its lovely.

"oh he is an admiral, we dont need proofs of anything"

"its a WB commander we need all teh proofs in teh world"

anyways no, im just being conservative just like how SH4L argues Enel cant shoot a thunder dragon more then 100m and cant turn it in any way without conclusive and undeniable proof.

or the many other things he argues that are just like this

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 09:57 PM
Everyone has a double standard, its lovely.

"oh he is an admiral, we dont need proofs of anything"

"its a WB commander we need all teh proofs in teh world"

anyways no, im just being conservative just like how SH4L argues Enel cant shoot a thunder dragon more then 100m and cant turn it in any way without conclusive and undeniable proof.

Marco and Jozu are WB Commanders, and just like the Admirals, I'm willing to bet that they also have far higher haki mastery then Ace. There's no double standard at all. Indeed, some things are just this glaringly obvious.

King Ooga Booga
04-29-2011, 09:58 PM
Yeah, no. Comparing a guy's ability with his element with what he's been shown is nothing like scaling Haki usage from a guy who has one feat.

Nova you're a complete hypocrite. For saying we can assume Ace is really good with haki, and then claiming we can't know if Jimbei didn't hit Ace as many times as Blackbeard in their 5-day fight.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:00 PM
Bottom line seems to be

Everyone wants to argue about feats and proof until a certain situation they dont like(ace vs aokiji in this matter), and then just completely switch on the philosophy, there shouldnt be exceptions.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:01 PM
Bottom line seems to be

Everyone wants to argue about feats and proof until a certain situation they dont like(ace vs aokiji in this matter), and then just completely switch on the philosophy, there shouldnt be exceptions.

Applying universal absolutes is counter productive. Every situation and character is unique.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:02 PM
Yeah, no. Comparing a guy's ability with his element with what he's been shown is nothing like scaling Haki usage from a guy who has one feat.

Nova you're a complete hypocrite. For saying we can assume Ace is really good with haki, and then claiming we can't know if Jimbei didn't hit Ace as many times as Blackbeard in their 5-day fight.

Nope. I'm proving a point in. I'm arguing conservatively, and showing how people have a double standard.

Everybody-Hates_Ace train is fun to ride, eh?

Empirejoao
04-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Both have 1 haki feat. Ace's is better

Aokiji's haki feat/feats were against Whitebeard, whereas Ace's was against some random fodder. In terms of power, Aokiji showed that he could go head to head with Whitebeard, whereas Ace got thrashed by Aokiji's colleague (who should be just as strong as him).

It's unfortunate that we never got a clearcut look at Ace's strength, because Akainu was undoubtedly a terrible matchup for him, but all the indications we have are that he was definitely weaker than the animals.

That said, I think that the duo have a better chance of winning. Ace is a terrible matchup for Aokiji, and even though he wouldn't have a chance of winning by himself IMO, he is partnered with Jozu who can hang with Aokiji himself. Even though both of them are weaker than the Admiral, I think together they'll take this with high difficulty.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Applying universal absolutes is counter productive. Every situation and character is unique.

1. Why do you wank aokiji

2. Why do you underrate Ace?

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Aokiji's haki feat/feats were against Whitebeard, whereas Ace's where against some random fodder. In terms of power, Aokiji showed that he could go head to head with Whitebeard, whereas Ace got thrashed by Aokiji's colleague (who should be just as strong as him).

It's unfortunate that we never got a clearcut look at Ace's strength, because Akainu was undoubtedly a terrible matchup for him, but all the indications we have are that he was definitely weaker than the animals.

That said, I think that the duo have a better chance of winning. Ace is a terrible matchup for Aokiji, and even though he wouldn't have a chance of winning by himself IMO, he is partnered with Jozu who can hang with Aokiji himself. Even though both of them are weaker than the Admiral, I think together they'll take this with high difficulty.


Am i missing something? Last time i checked you dont use haki to change the shape off your logia body, its called DF mastery.

Great Potato
04-29-2011, 10:05 PM
Is it really fair to be passing off the Aokiji/Whitebeard feat as haki? I know it's a reasonable theory and all, but I've heard some other theories for it.

Anyways if we say that all the admirals blocked 1/3 of Whitebeard's attack, that means Aokiji should be able to block Ace's attacks. Not that it really matters because standing their with his arms out will leave him an open target for Jozu.

Jozu/Ace win

King Ooga Booga
04-29-2011, 10:06 PM
Nope. I'm proving a point in. I'm arguing conservatively, and showing how people have a double standard.

Everybody-Hates_Ace train is fun to ride, eh?

If you were arguing conservatively, you would see how pathetic your argument really is. State one thing CoC has on CoA, in a fight against a Top tier.

Oh, and Rayleigh said that CoC comes with natural talent and growth, not practice. You could be great at Haki, but weaker at CoC than 10 year old Ace. So you have yet to prove anything.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:10 PM
If you were arguing conservatively, you would see how pathetic your argument really is. State one thing CoC has on CoA, in a fight against a Top tier.

Oh, and Rayleigh said that CoC comes with natural talent and growth, not practice. You could be great at Haki, but weaker at CoC than 10 year old Ace. So you have yet to prove anything.

Yes well, if you pull that card, i pull this card.

We have no idea what the admirals Haki shield was. It might not have been haki, although that seem unlikely, but for all we know, it might not be. Plus its a move that requires three admirals.

Anyways, aokiji doesnt have CoA haki until proven, and niether does Ace. People say Aokiji would stomp ace, but really, without a reliable way of hitting Ace(CoA), he would have to depend on his fruit freezing him, in which is almost impossible because ace nullifies his fruit, their complete counters. Ace has shown better feats with his fruit, has he not? Yet its completely unreasonable to argue for Ace? hahaha, yeah ok

Aokiji has a jumping feat, yet niether have shown superior speed feats. Ace has better durability feats. All signs point to Ace. All wank points to Aokiji

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:12 PM
1. Why do you wank aokiji

2. Why do you underrate Ace?

He knocked out Bluejam's fodder. What's there to underrate?

Meanwhile Aokiji proved himself against WB.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:13 PM
He knocked out Bluejam's fodder. What's there to underrate?

Meanwhile Aokiji proved himself against WB.

1. why do you wank aokiji

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:15 PM
Is it really fair to be passing off the Aokiji/Whitebeard feat as haki? I know it's a reasonable theory and all, but I've heard some other theories for it.

WB put haki into his bisento thrust. I seriously doubt that it was just logia intangibility, or awesome timing, that saved Aokiji in that moment.

1. why do you wank aokiji

Why do you troll?

Z
04-29-2011, 10:16 PM
Aokiji simply seemed to have put a hole through himself to avoid the bisento.

Empirejoao
04-29-2011, 10:16 PM
Am i missing something? Last time i checked you dont use haki to change the shape off your logia body, its called DF mastery.

We don't know what happened; it could have been either a shape change or (more likely in my opinion) Aokiji countering with Haki. The fact of the matter is that Aokiji and both of his colleagues did absolutely fine against WB, whereas the only times we have Ace facing someone on that level he was utterly dominated. Of course, he blocked Aokiji's attack but that attack wasn't meant for him and Fire>Ice, no matter how much stronger Aokiji is than him. In both prolonged fights with a top tier, Ace was crushed.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:17 PM
WB put haki into his bisento thrust. I seriously doubt that it was just logia intangibility, or awesome timing, that saved Aokiji in that moment.



Why do you troll?

I doubt that 3 admirals could beat Whitebeard. Guess I am right :zaru

Im not trolling, you simply wank aokiji. hey, you're the feat guy, you're they guy who always needs proof of every little thing, taste of your own medicine eh?

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Even if we pretend to be feat zombies, the barrier he pulled off with the Admirals, proves that Aokiji has honed his haki to a superior level.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:19 PM
We don't know what happened; it could have been either a shape change or (more likely in my opinion) Aokiji countering with Haki. The fact of the matter is that Aokiji and both of his colleagues did absolutely fine against WB, whereas the only times we have Ace facing someone on that level he was utterly dominated. Of course, he blocked Aokiji's attack but that attack wasn't meant for him and Fire>Ice, no matter how much stronger Aokiji is than him. In both prolonged fights with a top tier, Ace was crushed.

Exactly. We dont know. Therefore all we can do is speculate. And yet many of you are arguing as if your speculation all of a sudden became facts, which is called wank in this case.

A>B>C? not how it works

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:20 PM
I doubt that 3 admirals could beat Whitebeard. Guess I am right :zaru

Im not trolling, you simply wank aokiji. hey, you're the feat guy, you're they guy who always needs proof of every little thing, taste of your own medicine eh?

You are trolling. You're trying to compare the haki burst of an eight year old with the feats of an Admiral.

I only need proof when you spout nonsensical things like Ace has higher haki mastery then Aokiji.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:21 PM
Even if we pretend to be feat zombies, the barrier he pulled off with the Admirals, proves that Aokiji has honed his haki to a superior level.

Whitebeard, Garp, Roger, hey, they never did that either. We dont know what it is. I guess if it was haki, since its such a superior feat, i suppose the admirals all have better haki then the characters i mentioned?

I am skeptical if it was even haki, because in reality, we've never seen anything like it, so using it as part of your argument doesnt prove anything

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:22 PM
Exactly. We dont know. Therefore all we can do is speculate. And yet many of you are arguing as if your speculation all of a sudden became facts, which is called wank in this case.

A>B>C? not how it works

Still doesn't change the fact that common sense is still common sense. You're argument hinges on an child Ace's fodder busting CoC burst. Do I need to prove that Mihawk has higher haki then Ace? No. The answer is glaringly obvious.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:22 PM
You are trolling. You're trying to compare the haki burst of an eight year old with the feats of an Admiral.

I only need proof when you spout nonsensical things like Ace has higher haki mastery then Aokiji.

Im arguing on the basis of Kings haki vs some weird thing that we have no idea about which could or could not be haki.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:23 PM
Whitebeard, Garp, Roger, hey, they never did that either. We dont know what it is. I guess if it was haki, since its such a superior feat, i suppose the admirals all have better haki then the characters i mentioned?

I am skeptical if it was even haki, because in reality, we've never seen anything like it, so using it as part of your argument doesnt prove anything

Does Oda need to spell out every obvious thing for you?

Im arguing on the basis of Kings haki vs some weird thing that we have no idea about which could or could not be haki.

It was haki.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:23 PM
Still doesn't change the fact that common sense is still common sense. You're argument hinges on an child Ace's fodder busting CoC burst. Do I need to prove that Mihawk has higher haki then Ace? No. The answer is glaringly obvious.

uh actually, yes. If mihawk doesnt have haki he cant beat ace. has he shown haki? nope. has it been hinted at haki by the author or by mihawk's current manga title? i dont think so.

Teach
04-29-2011, 10:24 PM
Nova proudly showing that he's autistic.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:24 PM
Does Oda need to spell out every obvious thing for you?



It was haki.


When was this confirmed?

Empirejoao
04-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Exactly. We dont know. Therefore all we can do is speculate. And yet many of you are arguing as if your speculation all of a sudden became facts, which is called wank in this case.

A>B>C? not how it works

I've always had doubts about exactly how strong Ace was before he died, because we never got a clear indication. However, all the evidence we have shows Ace being on a level with guys like Jimbei, which is clearly not even in the realm of someone like Aokiji.

You're right in that we don't have clear feats, and thus judging Ace's strength is pretty difficult. I don't understand why you're so convinced he's so strong though, because he hasn't really done anything to warrant that unlike Aokiji and the rest of the Admirals.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:26 PM
When was this confirmed?

I repeat, does Oda need to spell out every glaringly obvious detail for you?

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:26 PM
I've always had doubts about exactly how strong Ace was before he died, because we never got a clear indication. However, all the evidence we have shows Ace being on a level with guys like Jimbei, which is clearly not even in the realm of someone like Aokiji.

You're right in that we don't have clear feats, and thus judging Ace's strength is pretty difficult. I don't understand why you're so convinced he's so strong though, because he hasn't really done anything to warrant that unlike Aokiji and the rest of the Admirals.

Now note i never said Ace could beat Aokiji, because Frankly I dont think he can. I am saying I dont think Aokiji can beat Ace.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:27 PM
I repeat, does Oda need to spell out every glaringly obvious detail for you?

Its definitely not a glaringly obvious detail.

StrawHat4Life
04-29-2011, 10:29 PM
Its definitely not a glaringly obvious detail.

It is to those with a modicum of reading comprehension.

Goova
04-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Maybe i need to summarize my arguments. for why I think Aokiji cant defeat Ace.

1. Both fruits counter each other.
2. Niether has dominate speed feats
3. Since neither have shown useful haki feats, they cant really hurt each other.

Great Potato
04-29-2011, 10:42 PM
For all we know only Akainu and Kizaru blocked the quake, and Aokiji just stuck his arms out so he wouldn't look weak.

violentrl
04-29-2011, 11:01 PM
Aokiji's natural weakness is Ace. It's not like Aokiji could freeze fire... Ace can spam near mountain busting Entei and Aokiji at his best would simply cancel it. Jozu would come from behind and buttrape him

Young Grasshopper
04-29-2011, 11:10 PM
For all we know only Akainu and Kizaru blocked the quake, and Aokiji just stuck his arms out so he wouldn't look weak.

I really hope you're being sarcastic.

warmonger5505
04-29-2011, 11:46 PM
http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-567-page-8.html

That^ is not haki it is just Aokiji moving himself around WB's attack.

I got the sense that he nullified WB's haki with his own. So they sort of sort of canceled each other out. I could be wrong though.

If he had nullified WB's haki than why couldn't he nullify Joz's haki body slame that happened on the next page of the above scan. Which if he could stop WB's haki he would easily stop Joz's. It just common sense.

StrawHat4Life
04-30-2011, 12:10 AM
That^ is not haki it is just Aokiji moving himself around WB's attack.

It's unclear, but I interpret that as haki usage. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You could very well be right though.

If he had nullified WB's haki than why couldn't he nullify Joz's haki body slame that happened on the next page of the above scan. Which if he could stop WB's haki he would easily stop Joz's. It just common sense.

We're talking about the heat of battle, where top tier characters were constantly attacking each other from out of nowhere. Someone's bound to get in a shot here and there, which was indeed the case throughout the war. Jozu is clearly a high tier character, who I would assume possesses a solid level of haki mastery. I'm not shocked at all that he managed to do visible damage to Aokiji, especially considering that he sort of bum rushed Aokiji from the side.

Z
04-30-2011, 12:15 AM
Jaws is top-tier.

Stilzkin
04-30-2011, 12:15 AM
That^ is not haki it is just Aokiji moving himself around WB's attack.


You have to wonder how the hell Aokiji simply made a hole in his body seeing as ice isn't fluid. How do you make a hole in your body when your body is made of a hard material?


If he had nullified WB's haki than why couldn't he nullify Joz's haki body slame that happened on the next page of the above scan. Which if he could stop WB's haki he would easily stop Joz's. It just common sense.

That could be a simple as Aokiji having been prepared for WB's attack but not Aokiji.

There is obviously a lot of haki stuff going on in the war that we can't yet explain, the seeming absence of CoO for one.

Z
04-30-2011, 12:16 AM
You have to wonder how the hell Aokiji simply made a hole in his body seeing as ice isn't fluid. How do you make a hole in your body when your body is made of a hard material?


Maybe that's just because he has mastered his logia fruit?

StrawHat4Life
04-30-2011, 12:19 AM
Or mastered his haki.

Great Potato
04-30-2011, 12:25 AM
I really hope you're being sarcastic.

I was trying to put myself in the mindset of the people who think Jinbei only punched Ace twice in their five day battle.

Goova
04-30-2011, 12:29 AM
haki doesnt work with logia's pretty sure

Yonkou
04-30-2011, 06:50 AM
Aokiji's haki feat/feats were against Whitebeard, whereas Ace's was against some random fodder. In terms of power, Aokiji showed that he could go head to head with Whitebeard, whereas Ace got thrashed by Aokiji's colleague (who should be just as strong as him).

Aokiji's haki feat was all three Admirals against Whitebeard. And of course Ace got thrashed by "Aokiji's colleage" (who if I may point out had a magma devil fruit btw) because at his state of health, <10% he had to get thrashed by Akainu. Or else he'd clearly be the strongest man in the world.


I've always had doubts about exactly how strong Ace was before he died, because we never got a clear indication. However, all the evidence we have shows Ace being on a level with guys like Jimbei, which is clearly not even in the realm of someone like Aokiji.

Ace had a draw with Jimbei as a super-rookie two years before his death, so I'd have thought it was pretty obvious he was atleast stronger than him.



Another thing Aokiji's feat against Whitebeard looked more like he made a hole in his body for the bisento to go through rather than any usage of Haki. If it was haki usage wouldn't that have meant that Whitebeard would have gone through his logia body and since that is ice, there should've been ice lodged at the end of Whitebeard's bisento or atleast some ice broken off Aokiji's body, etc. But there wasn't anything of the sort.

Tornado
04-30-2011, 09:22 AM
A small clarification -

Whitebeard didn't poke Aokiji with his bisento. WB's posture in this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-567-page-7.html) panel makes it clear that he slashed Aokiji, and the fact that the bisento stopped haflway inside Aokiji's body indicates that the haki-imbued bisento met physical resistance.

So, "Aokiji made a hole through his body" doesn't make much sense; it was a haki feat, because though the bisento made physical contact, Aokiji was unscathed.

PS: the mangastream translation is wrong, the fodder marine never used the word "stab", he said "He sliced using Haki?!! Is Aokiji... dead?!!"

Yonkou
04-30-2011, 10:09 AM
A small clarification -

Whitebeard didn't poke Aokiji with his bisento. WB's posture in this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-567-page-7.html) panel makes it clear that he slashed Aokiji, and the fact that the bisento stopped haflway inside Aokiji's body indicates that the haki-imbued bisento met physical resistance.

So, "Aokiji made a hole through his body" doesn't make much sense; it was a haki feat, because though the bisento made physical contact, Aokiji was unscathed.

PS: the mangastream translation is wrong, the fodder marine never used the word "stab", he said "He sliced using Haki?!! Is Aokiji... dead?!!"

It can't be a slash or otherwise its a very weird one. If you look when whitebeard did hit him (http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-567-page-8.html)you can see the bisento tip has gone through Aokiji with the blade facing downwards so that rules out any type of slash except a vertical one (hes not going to slash with the face of his bisento). Even then because Aokiji is an ice logia if it had slashed him all the way from his head down to that point there would've been ice chuncks broken off or something of the sort, i.e he'd still get sliced just that the ice would get sliced and not the real him (same thing that happened to Akainu, but different from what happened to Kizaru in SA because hes a "light" logia). And also during that same panel you can see those mist / steam or w/e effects are going round in circles and there are also no lines to indicate that its a vertical slash, while there are those lines in the background that usually indicate linear motion.

Coruscation
04-30-2011, 10:20 AM
It's definitely a stab. I can see how his posture before looks like he's about to do a slash, but if you look at the page where it hits you can see that he has removed one of his hands from his bisento - the two-handed stance was in preparation of a slash - and is now only holding it with one hand.

Regarding Ace's strength I would also say that it seems intuitively obvious that he should be a fair bit above Jimbei by the time of the main storyline. But also just as much if not more below the Admirals. Thing is, (IMO) the differences in strength at that level doesn't really manifest in the same way as at lower levels. People have reasonably similar reaction times, movement speeds and whatnot. You aren't going to see a Lucci vs. Usopp type treatment even between someone at Ace's level and someone at Admiral level, so there's no inconsistency between him being able to match Aokiji briefly and then getting destroyed by Akainu - especially when you consider how the DFs were involved. I would say that Ace performed "above" his level against Aokiji, but "below" it against Akainu.

Lord Stark
04-30-2011, 10:39 AM
It's unclear, but I interpret that as haki usage. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You could very well be right though.



We're talking about the heat of battle, where top tier characters were constantly attacking each other from out of nowhere. Someone's bound to get in a shot here and there, which was indeed the case throughout the war. Jozu is clearly a high tier character, who I would assume possesses a solid level of haki mastery. I'm not shocked at all that he managed to do visible damage to Aokiji, especially considering that he sort of bum rushed Aokiji from the side.

Yes it is Haki usage, but that is not COA
That is COO imo.
He used COO to predict WB's attack and move himself around the attack.

As for this scenario, Joz and Ace dominate. They are 2 of WB's commanders they probably have excellent synergy.

Coruscation
04-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Regarding Haki usage vs. making a hole... judging by how Aokiji's knees are bent and it seems like his upper body was somewhat pushed back, I'm inclined to think that the stab did hit him (but only hit ice, obviously). Which would indicate Haki. Making a hole ostensibly makes sense, but I don't know how that would explain the position his body is in at the time he gets hit.

Tornado
04-30-2011, 11:31 AM
@ yonkou and coruscation, you guys think cnet is wrong huh? It clearly says "sliced", and the page I posted supports that.

Even then because Aokiji is an ice logia if it had slashed him all the way from his head down to that point there would've been ice chuncks broken off or something of the sort..
Aokiji could've simply reformed whatever part of his body the bisento sliced through.

It's definitely a stab. I can see how his posture before looks like he's about to do a slash, but if you look at the page where it hits you can see that he has removed one of his hands from his bisento - the two-handed stance was in preparation of a slash - and is now only holding it with one hand.

How does removing one hand from the bisento preclude a slash? It looks like he was about to do a (one-handed) slash in the bottom panel (here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-567-page-7.html)).

Coruscation
04-30-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm not going by the words, but by the pictures. Those supercede any translation. For what it's worth, Aohige of Arlong Park (who IIRC is Japanese and has cleared up mistakes by Stephen before) put it like this:

"Pirate: He stabbed him with Haki!!?"

In that bottom-panel shot, I'd assume that WB is still holding it as he was in the upper panel. With two hands. Then he changed that and did a one-handed stab. If you're proposing that he slashed as intended to all along, why did he remove one hand when he was already in position to slash with both? You can also see that he changed the position of the bisento, from how he would hold it to slash to how he would hold it to stab (sorry, I'm no good with explaining things in English, but I hope you see what I mean and Yonkou explained it before as well) - how would you explain that? The evidence seems piled up for him having stabbed.

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