USSR vs. Japan

ShadowLordZ
01-28-2010, 07:16 AM
I think they did fight them for a short period during WWII with the Russians defeating the japanese.....(I think it was Zhukov who was the commander then...)
I guess even if they did continue their battle the russians would come out as winners, in no small part due to the overall quality of their mechanized forces as compared to what the japanese had for that time. This is considering they would be fighting near the russian-chinese border as such. I not sure how the fighting would go if they were fighting near tropical areas with jungles(say areas similar to South East asia) as then the mechanized advantage the russians enjoyed would be nullified. But i guess the overall manpower the soviets had, as well as the fact that they were more than willing to sacrifice as many a number of soldiers as required to complete a mission would probably again tilt the battle in favour of the Soviets.

Sazabi24
01-28-2010, 07:53 AM
Russians from 1941 roflstomped the Japanese.

Watchman
01-28-2010, 08:14 AM
The USSR will fight Japan during WWII instead of Germany.

The Russians will quite easily push the Japanese out of Manchuria and Korea - Japan, unlike the European nations, hadn't had a WW1 to teach them how flawed the tactics they were using were, and in any case had an industrial base about equivalent to Italy at the time - that is not in any way going to trouble the USSR.

Navy-wise, Japan has a very very large advantage, so it will likely end with the USSR stripping Japan of its possessions in Manchuria and Korea (and likely vassalizing a large chunk of whatever parts of non-Manchurian China Japan had conquered by that point), but they can't exactly feasibly defeat the IJN with their naval assets at the beginning of the war.

On the other hand, the Japanese desperately needed oil for their ships that they didn't have, and once the Russians unveil what's happening with Unit 731, the Japanese can forget about any support from the West - fear of Communist Russia can't trump that barbarism.

What happens after Japan's pushed off the mainland depends - most likely, the USSR will push for peace, content with their now almost complete-hegemony of the region, though they'll probably try to squeeze as much money out of Japan as they can. If Japan's lucky, the peace will be signed prior to the USSR developing a nuclear weapon. If they're not lucky, the USSR will nuke them and then quite unsubtly fund a communist revolution to turn Japan into a satellite state.

But yeah, Japan has no way of victory here - all they can hope for is a *better* peace.

paulatreides0
01-28-2010, 08:57 AM
Japan is quite literally across the shore from Russia. unlike the US&Japan, there's not a huge amount of sea and islands, it has relatively easy acess to it.

Japanese navy would be a pain in the ass at first, but Russia could just build ships.

Historically the Japanese and Russia have never been good friends...and Japan's usually the one getting kicked in the ass

iander
01-28-2010, 09:05 AM
Japan did pretty well for itself in the Russo Japanese War but Russia had changed a lot since then. Are we including Korean and Chinese forces in this or are we just assuming a fictional war directly between Russia and Japan?

Watchman
01-28-2010, 09:26 AM
Japan is quite literally across the shore from Russia. unlike the US&Japan, there's not a huge amount of sea and islands, it has relatively easy acess to it.

Japanese navy would be a pain in the ass at first, but Russia could just build ships.

Historically the Japanese and Russia have never been good friends...and Japan's usually the one getting kicked in the ass

True, the USSR has the industrial capacity to outmatch Japan's navy eventually, but do you think would war continue for that long, rather than Stalin seeing he's had a quick and relatively easy victory over a traditional rival, and that he's bagged some pretty impressive land to boot; enough to satisfy him for now in Asia?

EDIT:

And lol, I was snooping around on the AH.com forums, and found this. (http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=146429)

Fang
01-28-2010, 10:11 AM
The Japanese also never really invested in the prospect of automatic weapons or mobilized armored divisions.

paulatreides0
01-28-2010, 10:47 AM
The Japanese also never really invested in the prospect of automatic weapons or mobilized armored divisions.

they focused on the navy and their naval aircraft. Japan is technically the inventor of efficient carrier warfare..and they were REAL good at it, they were completely raping the US early on

All I can see as a real threat to Russia is the Zeros and Navy, and Yak-9s should be able to swat down the zeros

Sazabi24
01-28-2010, 10:48 AM
Oh yeah, the Russians just wait a while and nuke Japan off the map.

paulatreides0
01-28-2010, 02:08 PM
Oh yeah, the Russians just wait a while and nuke Japan off the map.

Well, isn't there a story about the Japs having had a nuke? I believe there were several actually, even one about one they were going to test but were unable to because the Russians ended up taking the testing site.

CrazyMoronX
01-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Russia would crush Japan, but it wouldn't be without a decent fight. Of course Russia could just nuke their little island literally off the map.

paulatreides0
01-28-2010, 03:15 PM
Russia would crush Japan, but it wouldn't be without a decent fight. Of course Russia could just nuke their little island literally off the map.
well, it was rumored that the Japs had built a nuke or almost finished one right before they surrendered...the first russian one IIRC, was in '49, so...not really......

Since it's just a legend, I'm iffy, but I'm not gonna underestimate nuclear powers here.

Regardless, like I said, Russia would win this. The only problem they would have would be the Nippon-nese Navy&air force, BUT once the Russians get out the Yak-9s (:fap:fap:fap) and build themselves a Navy (hyello Cold War USSR NAVY!!!!)...poor Nippon......

The Immortal WatchDog
01-28-2010, 07:18 PM
when did Russia and Japan fight? it was around the time the US was beating them silly?

in any event Japan if it's good admirals are alive yamamoto and co should be able to force a peace treaty

if not..oooh boy

Well, isn't there a story about the Japs having had a nuke? I believe there were several actually, even one about one they were going to test but were unable to because the Russians ended up taking the testing site.

i think like you said it's legend but they where building crude icbms...and had some insane suicide rocket they built..

a one man suicide ram battleship buster...but beyond that no clue

Eternal Pein
01-28-2010, 07:30 PM
USSR would dominate

paulatreides0
01-28-2010, 07:53 PM
when did Russia and Japan fight? it was around the time the US was beating them silly?

in any event Japan if it's good admirals are alive yamamoto and co should be able to force a peace treaty

if not..oooh boy



i think like you said it's legend but they where building crude icbms...and had some insane suicide rocket they built..

a one man suicide ram battleship buster...but beyond that no clue
Russia and Japan have never really got along, I can't remember the exact reason.....

and they couldn't force a treaty with SOVIET RUSSIA. Japan doesn't have that kind of power even with Yamamoto and amigos.

Yeah, it's never been proven, but some reports said that they HAD built one, and Russia had seized it and used that to help develop their own nukes. However, it's iffy...however, i'd rather be cautious than take chances.....

The Immortal WatchDog
01-28-2010, 10:25 PM
Russia and Japan have never really got along, I can't remember the exact reason.....

when Japan was an up and coming power russia had a pretty decent friendship with the US and then Japan to prove it was the big bad ass new kid on the block absolutely pwned russia in the sino-russo war

it's the same reason the Ottoman empire had such a hateful relationship with the us when the empire was declining the US had those Barbary wars which sorta solidified them as the tough ass new G's and the Ottomans kinda useless

they never forgave America same with Russia

and they couldn't force a treaty with SOVIET RUSSIA. Japan doesn't have that kind of power even with Yamamoto and amigos.

Yamamoto knew that he could not match the us power so he opted for what he had best force them into a treaty

he was brilliant and capable and experienced and it would of worked if not for Hasley and co it'd of worked

thats what i meant at the time the Soviet navy's got nowhere near the might of us navy

and they don't have leaders that can match isoroku's wits

Yeah, it's never been proven, but some reports said that they HAD built one, and Russia had seized it and used that to help develop their own nukes. However, it's iffy...however, i'd rather be cautious than take chances.....

damn we came close

paulatreides0
01-28-2010, 10:47 PM
okay, I see what you're saying

and yeah, according to the reporter/investigator, it was supposedly a working prototype that was about to be tested (but it couldn't have been tested in the original site because the Russians had overtaken it). here's a wiki article:
Rumored Japanese weapon test

Former Atlanta Constitution reporter and army intelligence officer David Snell of the 24th Criminal Investigation Detachment in Korea authored a report for the International Military Tribunal of the Far East which stated that Hideki Tojo had planned to wage nuclear war if his scientists had been successful. According to Snell, the Japanese project staff had been captured by Russian troops at Konan only three days after they had almost completed a functioning atomic bomb. The Russians had not cooperated with Snell's investigations, but he concluded that the downing of a B-29 bomber over Konan by the Russians on 29 September 1945 was due to the Russians having captured the Japanese nuclear test site.[11]

Following his discharge Snell wrote up the story for the Atlanta Constitution, which published it in 1946. In the story, Snell alleged that the Japanese had successfully tested a nuclear weapon near Konan before being captured by the Russians. He claimed that he had received his information from a Japanese officer who had been in charge of counter-intelligence at Konan.[12][13]

Though no credence was placed in the story by SCAP officials, it was nonetheless thought necessary to get comments from Japanese scientists who would or should have known about such a project. Bunsaku Arakatsu called the article "false and fantastic" as he was personally acquainted with the few people capable of such a project, and said that Japan's nuclear research had never progressed beyond the laboratory stage, nor had any thought been given to the construction of a pilot plant for the production of nuclear material. Further doubt is cast on Snell's story by the lack of evidence of large numbers of Japanese scientists leaving Japan for Korea and never returning.[13]

The 1985 book "Japan's Secret War: Japan's Race Against Time to Build Its Own Atomic Bomb"[14] by Robert K. Wilcox reprinted the Snell material as part of its investigation of Japan's World War Two nuclear research. In addition to detailing the known Japanese army and navy efforts, the book cited numerous intelligence reports and interviews which indicated the Japanese might have had an atomic program at Konan and offered evidence that the Japanese Navy, taking up the atomic project after Nishina’s separator at Riken had been destroyed, had accelerated Japanese efforts to make a nuclear weapon.

A review by Department of Energy employee Roger M. Anders appeared in the journal Military Affairs:
Journalist Wilcox' book describes the Japanese wartime atomic energy projects. This is laudable, in that it illuminates a little-known episode; nevertheless, the work is marred by Wilcox' seeming eagerness to show that Japan created an atomic bomb. Tales of Japanese atomic explosions, one a fictional attack on Los Angeles, the other an unsubstantiated account of a post-Hiroshima test, begin the book. (Wilcox accepts the test story because the author [Snell], "was a distinguished journalist"). The tales, combined with Wilcox' failure to discuss the difficulty of translating scientific theory into a workable bomb, obscure the actual story of the Japanese effort: uncoordinated laboratory-scale projects which took paths least likely to produce a bomb.[15]

In the historical journal Isis, two historians of science said only of Wilcox's work that his thesis stood "on the flimsiest and most unconvincing of grounds," and surmised that the hidden agenda of such conspiracy theories was "to furnish a new exculpation for America's dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki."[16]

An article published in the journal "Intelligence and National Security" in 1998, based on a review of many of the same documents used by Wilcox, and more, came to a similar conclusion. The article cited several US military intelligence documents and Japanese corporate records of the Nitchitsu firm that ran most of the industry in Hungnam and found no substantive evidence of any nuclear research program existing there during the war.[17]

As a result of Wilcox's book, two nuclear scientists active in World War II were interviewed by Bernard Shaw on American television (CNN) in the late 1980s. These were American scientist Glenn Seaborg (discoverer of plutonium) and former Japanese citizen, Professor Paul Kuroda, who was then a faculty member at the University of Arkansas, and who had worked on the fringes of the modest Japanese nuclear program during the war. Both Seaborg and Kuroda thought the claim that Japan had tested a nuclear weapon was absurd. Kuroda was aware that Japan had been studying the possibility of nuclear weapons, but that the program had not progressed to the point of actually enriching uranium, which is a necessary step in producing a uranium bomb.[citation needed]

if that is all true we came very, VERY close

pikachuwei
01-28-2010, 11:51 PM
japanese build gundams :pek :gun

Watchman
01-29-2010, 05:11 AM
when did Russia and Japan fight? it was around the time the US was beating them silly?

in any event Japan if it's good admirals are alive yamamoto and co should be able to force a peace treaty

if not..oooh boy



i think like you said it's legend but they where building crude icbms...and had some insane suicide rocket they built..

a one man suicide ram battleship buster...but beyond that no clue

Russo-Japanese war, 1904-05, IIRC. Russia wanted a port (Port Arthur) that wouldn't be frozen over half the year, and Japan wanted the same port to better facilitate domination over the region. They clashed, drew on land, but Japan's navy rapestomped the Russian navy.

They did also clash in WW2, and the Russians were winning quite handily. It's theorised one of the reasons America dropped the atomic bomb was to tell the Russians to back off.

Endless Mike
01-29-2010, 10:33 AM
Ridiculous stomp in favor of the USSR

paulatreides0
01-29-2010, 01:23 PM
japanese build gundams :pek :gun

post 1979 :zaru

The Immortal WatchDog
01-29-2010, 01:37 PM
okay, I see what you're saying

and yeah, according to the reporter/investigator, it was supposedly a working prototype that was about to be tested (but it couldn't have been tested in the original site because the Russians had overtaken it). here's a wiki article:


if that is all true we came very, VERY close

it seems like most people where saying it was BS...and it seems so

what i could buy though was Japan possibly if the war had not gone south conducting research for Nuclear power as an alternate Fuel source since by this point the US had taken almost all of Japans oil but that would of still been years off though l

Russo-Japanese war, 1904-05, IIRC. Russia wanted a port (Port Arthur) that wouldn't be frozen over half the year, and Japan wanted the same port to better facilitate domination over the region. They clashed, drew on land, but Japan's navy rapestomped the Russian navy.

yeah i know about that i mentioned that earlier..Russia seemed to have a special hate for them for that


They did also clash in WW2, and the Russians were winning quite handily. It's theorised one of the reasons America dropped the atomic bomb was to tell the Russians to back off.

makes sense "we wont have another vassal nation parroting your ideals"

pikachuwei
01-29-2010, 02:13 PM
post 1979 :zaru

Guntanks then :pek :gun

paulatreides0
01-29-2010, 04:09 PM
Guntanks then :pek :gun
guntanks were test models along with the gundam and therefore post 1979 as well :zaru

it seems like most people where saying it was BS...and it seems so
oh, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that if you're going to say "wait until 1949 when Russia has nukes" there is a small probability that Japan will have them too, and even earlier than the ruskies did.

The Immortal WatchDog
01-29-2010, 06:05 PM
guntanks were test models along with the gundam and therefore post 1979 as well :zaru


oh, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying that if you're going to say "wait until 1949 when Russia has nukes" there is a small probability that Japan will have them too, and even earlier than the ruskies did.

that would suck for the soviets...imperial Japans brutality with nuclear bombs..

Fang
01-29-2010, 06:18 PM
Kurile islands, Solomon, Midway, ect...Japan being dislodged from the north by only the USSR would be hard.

Jekidoruy
01-30-2010, 03:17 AM
Yeah this battle already did happen and Japan rape and pwned USSR and china

Fang
01-30-2010, 03:35 AM
Are you talking about when the local Kuwatang Army got its ass kicked by the Russians at the Chinese borders with Mongolia?

Watchman
01-30-2010, 04:41 AM
Yeah this battle already did happen and Japan rape and pwned USSR and china

lolwat?...............

biar
01-31-2010, 12:20 AM
The Japanese lost badly in Kahlkin Gol already when the USSR was still developing and weak.

The campaign in Manchuria was just rape, Japan's shitty tanks didn't even stand a chance against T-34 with an 85mm gun

Japan only had better navy.

jedijohn
01-31-2010, 12:38 PM
The USSR would win, but with heavy casualties. The Japanese don't know the meaning of the word surrender. They fight to the death, even if they are getting completely rapestomped. The Japanese would lose, but they would take out a good portion of the Russian army.

Watchman
01-31-2010, 12:42 PM
The USSR would win, but with heavy casualties. The Japanese don't know the meaning of the word surrender. They fight to the death, even if they are getting completely rapestomped. The Japanese would lose, but they would take out a good portion of the Russian army.

They'd do no such thing - their armies were stomped quite easily by Russia in real life during WW2, and not knowing the meaning of the word surrender doesn't mean that they'll actually do any meaningful damage - lots of this "death before surrender" stuff boiled down to charging enemy soldiers with bayonets because the Japanese supply lines were crushed and they had no/very little ammunition or fuel.

Even then, Soviet Tanks were more than capable of crushing their Japanese counterparts one on one, and there were far more of them than there were Japanese tanks.

Combine that with the Soviets having a superior airforce and vastly superior industry that the Japanese aren't even going to be able to touch and you've got all the makings of a rape sandwich.

Blue
01-31-2010, 12:50 PM
In a total war scenario, Russia would force Japan off the Asian mainland with heavy casualties, but would be unable to ever invade the Japanese home isles due to an enormous disadvantage in naval power.

Russia's industrial capacity would not matter without warm-water ports in the theater; they'd have to deploy what navy they had from Stalingrad, and Japan would know what was coming weeks ahead of time, as they'd have to sail through the Mediterranean and possibly around the cape of Africa.

fucking rofl @ the Japanese nuclear weapons conspiracy

Yes, Japan would develop and test the most powerful weapon ever devised in striking distance of a hostile nation. DEFINITELY.

jedijohn
01-31-2010, 01:29 PM
They'd do no such thing - their armies were stomped quite easily by Russia in real life during WW2, and not knowing the meaning of the word surrender doesn't mean that they'll actually do any meaningful damage - lots of this "death before surrender" stuff boiled down to charging enemy soldiers with bayonets because the Japanese supply lines were crushed and they had no/very little ammunition or fuel.

Even then, Soviet Tanks were more than capable of crushing their Japanese counterparts one on one, and there were far more of them than there were Japanese tanks.

Combine that with the Soviets having a superior airforce and vastly superior industry that the Japanese aren't even going to be able to touch and you've got all the makings of a rape sandwich.

Well, you've got a point there.

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